Author Topic: F35 - Bad idea made worse over time?  (Read 22291 times)

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Offline mirth

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Offline mirth

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"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can’t ‘un’ until you ‘pre’, son." - Gus

Offline JudgeDredd

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Re: F35 - Bad idea made worse over time?
« Reply #212 on: April 13, 2018, 04:46:53 AM »
Seriously - at 1:12, there's the "Weapon Delivery Accuracy Tests" and every one of the ordinance strikes shown miss the target  :DD  I'm not saying they didn't do damage - but they didn't hit the target either.

This is a promotional video right? Why would they include that?  :uglystupid2:

Also - I never got the front opening flap for the vertical thruster. For landing, yeah...ok...it'll help slow the aircraft down. However, it's not an "adjustable" airbrake - it's just an on/off airbrake and when going into vertical landing mode, it's an always on brake. That's the first thing. The second thing is they show it doing a short take off requiring vertical thrust - and that requires that "airbrake" to be on...resulting in slower forward momentum. And I can imagine there'd be extra thrust needed to propel the aircraft forward, resulting, marginally or otherwise, in unnecessary additional pressure being put on the engine and the opening itself.

I'm no engineer...but I have some basic understanding of physics and mechanics and the whole design of that vertical thrust mech for me seems to be flawed in many ways.

If anyone can shed any light on any benefits of the front opening flap (except for being a brake for coming in to land, which I've mentioned), I'm all ears.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 04:48:38 AM by JudgeDredd »
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Offline ComradeP

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Re: F35 - Bad idea made worse over time?
« Reply #213 on: April 13, 2018, 11:53:06 AM »
I often wonder how the F-35 project could've failed so spectacularly thus far. The Defence industry is very political in the US, but even taking that into account the program is not living up to any expectations.

Should there be a military conflict with Russia soon, NATO will primarily be using a roughly 40 year old design, the F-16, instead of the modern aircraft that should've entered service at the beginning of this decade. Even if it enters service, I'm worried that a showdown between an F-35 and an Su-35 wouldn't have a happy ending for the F-35 considering all of the design flaws that are only slowly being ironed out.

Yes, aircraft in the past have also taken years or even decades to become truly successful, but the F-35 program is in a league of its own.

On another level, it is also frustrating that the delays also makes smaller NATO partners, who invested in the project, more vulnerable and also spending money on things that shouldn't have been necessary, like extending the service of the F-16.
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Offline GDS_Starfury

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Re: F35 - Bad idea made worse over time?
« Reply #214 on: April 13, 2018, 12:22:51 PM »
well it SU-35s are getting through to the F-35s then a lot of other things have gone very wrong.
Im really not worried about any US or NATO air force dealing easily with Russian trash.
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Offline OJsDad

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Re: F35 - Bad idea made worse over time?
« Reply #215 on: April 13, 2018, 07:28:27 PM »
ComradeP, Trailrunner talked about the development issues on the F35 a couple of pages back.
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Offline ComradeP

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Re: F35 - Bad idea made worse over time?
« Reply #216 on: April 14, 2018, 01:37:21 AM »
Yeah, I read that, I'm just wondering in a literal sense how those things could happen and why they couldn't be prevented.

With modern computers, simulating most kinds of challenges related to physics or handling should not be complicated. However, the project keeps running into software problems.

The project made sense for its time, it's how the project is handled that is almost embarrassing. 

Starfury: I understand your faith in the various NATO Air Forces, primarily the US Air Force, but as we've had a discussion about this many times already I'll just summarize my point to my usual reply that neither the US nor any other NATO ally has faced a modern military force with similar capabilities and similar numbers either since Desert Storm or the Second World War and I'll add my usual caveat that I don't feel Saddam's army counts as being technologically on par with NATO (which is another point we'll usually disagree on).

The Gulf War air war preparation phase for the ground phase also took nearly half a year and over 2000 aircraft, at a time when many NATO members still had shiny Cold War-sized armed forces. A lot of that is gone now to begin with, including the support infrastructure as recent exercises in Europe moving forces from west to east have shown, and the question is becoming more and more: what do we have if the Russians attack today? The likeliness of having about half a year to prepare isn't great. Desert Storm was the kind of conflict where everything could be carefully prepared in favour of the participating NATO members.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 09:34:27 PM by ComradeP »
The fact that these people drew inspiration...and then became chicken farmers - Cyrano, Dragon' Up The Past #45

Offline GDS_Starfury

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Re: F35 - Bad idea made worse over time?
« Reply #217 on: April 14, 2018, 09:39:20 AM »
I get where you're coming from Comrade.  I would like to point out that of all the post Cold War air forces the Russians have pretty much been hit the worst with budget cuts and airframe availability.  somewhere around here is a chart and on that chart it graphically shows how the USAF alone has more tankers then the Russians have airplanes.  one could be very impressed by the latest and greatest from Sukhoi, the problem is there are only a handful of these plane.  I would also point out that western intelligence has now had a very good look at how these aircraft perform and how long they can maintain operations.
Gus - I use sweatpants with flannel shorts to soak up my crotch sweat.

Banzai Cat - There is no "partial credit" in grammar. Like anal sex. It's either in, or it's not.

Mirth - We learned long ago that they key isn't to outrun Star, it's to outrun Gus.

Martok - I don't know if it's possible to have an "anti-boner"...but I now have one.

Gus - Celery is vile and has no reason to exist. Like underwear on Star.


Offline Staggerwing

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Re: F35 - Bad idea made worse over time?
« Reply #218 on: April 14, 2018, 10:10:47 AM »
^ Yeah, the downside for Putin in using Syria to demonstrate what his frontline assets are capable of...

... is that he's just also demonstrated what his frontline assets are not capable of.


(With a little recent help from the IDF...  8) )
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Offline trailrunner

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Re: F35 - Bad idea made worse over time?
« Reply #219 on: April 14, 2018, 10:23:25 AM »
In straight up air-to-air combat, the F-35 will do just fine.  No worries there.


With modern computers, simulating most kinds of challenges related to physics or handling should not be complicated. However, the problem keeps running into software problems.
 

This is a good observation.  We can predict aero performance pretty well, because it's based on physics.  I went to a design review for the F-22 engine in the 1990s.  One of the Pratt and Whitney engineers was getting raked over the coals because the fuel burn was a few percent higher than the model predicted.  This is certainly important because it affects range, but at the same time, I thought that a model that was within a couple percent was pretty darn good.

But aero performance is not what makes the F-35 or F-22 stand out -- it's the software, as you note (and a few other things).  I posted in this thread a long time ago about the huge amount of software on the F-35.  The quantity is just staggering, and when you think of everything that this system is supposed to do (communicate externally, drop bombs, shoot missiles, navigate, process extremely complex sensor information, manage maintenance -- while also at the same time flying!), you can appreciate how enormously complex this system is.  Again, it's just staggering.  Software paced development of the F-22, and when I first started working on the F-35 program, I was certain that it would also pace the development of this system too.  But maybe this is just how long it takes to develop software this complex -- we just can't go any faster.  If that's the case, then the real problem is the unrealistically ambitious schedule imposed by the government in the RFP.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 10:25:16 AM by trailrunner »

Offline JudgeDredd

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Re: F35 - Bad idea made worse over time?
« Reply #220 on: April 14, 2018, 10:25:23 AM »
You still get M1 Abrams and Challenger II tanks taken out with RPGs. Never underestimate the enemy.
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Offline Windigo

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Re: F35 - Bad idea made worse over time?
« Reply #221 on: April 17, 2018, 11:33:10 AM »
We’re safe until the warthog gets retired for good.
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Offline BanzaiCat

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Re: F35 - Bad idea made worse over time?
« Reply #222 on: April 18, 2018, 04:40:14 AM »
Until the sage powers that be decide that the F35 with its gun pod could take over that role.  :idiot2:

Offline Staggerwing

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Re: F35 - Bad idea made worse over time?
« Reply #223 on: April 18, 2018, 05:58:26 AM »
Yeah, because 'two or three 'pew pew's and its gone' is better than fifteen minutes of BBRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTT

 ::)
Vituđ ér enn - eđa hvat?  -Voluspa

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Offline BanzaiCat

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Re: F35 - Bad idea made worse over time?
« Reply #224 on: April 18, 2018, 06:06:56 AM »
Hey now, there's something to be said for fifteen minutes of BBRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTTTTT