Author Topic: DCS Discussion  (Read 89417 times)

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Offline Toonces

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Re: DCS Discussion
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2013, 03:29:46 PM »
This is going to sound so pessimistic, but I've stopped waiting and hoping for DCS to fill my modern combat flight sim needs.

If it happens it happens, and if not it doesn't.  One could die from anticipation waiting for all the projects "in the works."

Despite the fact I am really digging the A-10C, I am seriously looking back to Falcon again. Plans for 2014 releases by the BMS team seem to have pretty cool stuff for the old lady! Pretty exciting. Mostly because I am fed up with a) the theatre of ops and b) the instability of mutiplayer with every darn new patch.
Doing the Teamspeak/TARS dance time and again is tiring.

If only I could find a decent Falcon Wing who are accomodating to irregular working schedules.

I wish you the best with Falcon 4.  I am most definitely a fanboi of Falcon and prefer it in almost every case over DCS.  However, I recently posted this over at BMS:

Understand that this isn't anything inherently wrong with Falcon or BMS. I think that we can agree that in many ways BMS is the best, or among the best, evolution of Falcon. (I submit that Freefalcon has some advantages over BMS, but that's not the point of this thread)

The thing is, although there have been some evolutionary and revolutionary changes to Falcon with BMS, at its heart it is still the same sim. That wouldn't be such a bad thing, in fact it's a GOOD thing because the original formula is still outstanding and some features (like the dynamic campaign engine) grant unlimited replayability.

However, the never-ending incomplete nature of Falcon, and the inherent annoying bugs or missing features, and the lack of meaningful single player theater progress, have just reached the point, with me, that I think I've just had enough.

Let me explain: my install of BMS has about 10 theaters installed. These include the stock Korea theaters that come with BMS, Molni's 80's Korea, a few versions of Panama, Guam, ITO, and a few projects I've been working on that nobody has. With the exception of BMS Korea (of which at least one campaign is broken), all of these theaters are incomplete. There is no theater that I can boot up and say, "ok, now I'm going to have a complete experience outside of Korea." No. All have some sort of bug, or are incomplete, or this or that is missing...if they even boot at all because many of mine are totally porked (through my fault or others).

But then even in Korea I think, "I want a whole experience in something other than an F-16" but that's not entirely possible. I've tried, and in Freefalcon it was certainly possible, but in BMS it just isn't. Yet, I feel that by now it should be possible. I will be possible, someday, but not today.

And the AI...it just annoys me.

So I guess what I'm saying is that even now, as awesome as BMS is, and as awesome as you guys, the community, are...everything is still 3-4 weeks away.

I want to have a complete, new experience in BMS, free from incompleteness and compromises. I've been waiting for so long. I sort of had it before FF went TU, which would still be ok with me except FF won't run on my nvidia card. But even then FF wasn't done. This isn't a rant about how FF is better than BMS. It's about the continued in-progress nature of Falcon 4 that, I think, I'm burned out on. I sort of feel like enough is enough and I'll just wait until it's "done" and then boot it back up. You know? Because I go for weeks without playing it and then, like today, boot it up to see if it can grab me and somehow the magic just isn't there anymore like it was. It's the same old shit I've done 1000 times the last 13+ years.

Hope this makes sense.


There are just some incredibly annoying bugs and missing features in BMS.  While in many ways it is miles ahead of Freefalcon, it is also a significant step back in the database and AI departments, among other things. 

If I really, really want to fly a complete combat flight sim, I find that Over Flanders Fields is the best of the crop with regards to single player experience.
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

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Offline Yskonyn

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Re: DCS Discussion
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2013, 03:59:25 PM »
Thanks, Toonces.
I understand your sentiments. It would have been nice if they could have done the BMS mod over F4AF instead of the base game.
While AF certainly isnt bugfree, Its campaign is much more functional. The ground war has seen some good love as well as they managed to get rid of the annoying engineers vs bridges bug, causing the ground units to be stuck at times.

Still, even with its flaws, Falcon feels much more alive, offers A-A as well as A-G at a decent level of simulation. Its just more fun to fly.

I am a proper DCS fan as well as a Falcon fan. But the work needed to be done in that godawful archaic piece of cr@p of a Mission Editor in DCS really keeps people from creating cool missions and campaigns; Many people just have given up before they can focus on the creativity, because the Mission editor is such a pain in the arse to use.
3D placement of units is one big example that is misging, but So darn vital!
If we get that, I'll be all over DCS again, even in our Crimea theatre! ;)
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Offline undercovergeek

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Re: DCS Discussion
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2013, 04:21:03 PM »
It's there such a thing as a beginner flight SIM? I'm not too keen on spending a load on joysticks, track irs (whatever they are!)and the other bits of kit

Offline Nefaro

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Re: DCS Discussion
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2013, 05:28:28 PM »
It's there such a thing as a beginner flight SIM? I'm not too keen on spending a load on joysticks, track irs (whatever they are!)and the other bits of kit

Just come fly some War Thunder if you don't want to mess with any extra hardware.  Arcade mode is easy to get into, and plays more like a 3-dimensional shooter using your mouse & keyboard.  It also has two higher levels of realism, if you ever feel the need to check those out too.   It's also Free-To-Play. 

Maybe it'll eventually convince you to move on to something more 'Sim' in the future.  Frankly I'm finding it a helluva lot easier starting up WT than dragging out all my hardware and dicking with setting them up, which sucks a lot of time and life right out of ya.  If only they had a similar MOBA set in a more modern jet era .. I'd be in heaven.

Offline bob48

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Re: DCS Discussion
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2013, 05:33:40 PM »
It's there such a thing as a beginner flight SIM? I'm not too keen on spending a load on joysticks, track irs (whatever they are!)and the other bits of kit

Rise of Flight is free, although you only get 2 aircraft unless you buy more. Sales are fairly frequent though.
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Offline undercovergeek

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Re: DCS Discussion
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2013, 05:35:00 PM »
I'm liking the pics nef..... it's what brought me here.... I may be up for some of that

Offline Toonces

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Re: DCS Discussion
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2013, 05:49:05 PM »
@ Yassy-
I think the reason BMS installs over original Falcon rather than Allied Force is because the basis of BMS is the leaked source code.  From what I remember, just before MicroProse closed up a disgruntled employee posted up the Falcon source code on the internet.  If you remember eRazor, I think a lot of his mods were based upon that.

At any rate, BMS splintered or evolved from the OpenFalcon guys that were using the source code for their mod.  Freefalcon on the other hand actually bought the rights to Falcon and were therefore free to develop without being hassled.  The other groups have always been trying to stay one step ahead of the law. 

Allied Force was sanctioned or affiliated with Hasbro, which most definitely cares about their proprietary code. 

So, by using the Falcon 4 .exe I think BMS exploits a loophole and can call itself a "mod" for Falcon.  Since MicroProse no longer exists, nobody gives a shit.  But if they had developed based on Allied Force they'd likely have been shut down. 

It's very much a gray area.  I think that it is one of the reasons BMS is so super-sensitive about any discussions of payment on their website; the last thing they want is for anyone to even perceive that they might be making money from Falcon.

The development of Falcon is a very interesting story.  I'll see if I can find the link to the story- it's interesting even if you're not into the sim.
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

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Offline jomni

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Re: DCS Discussion
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2013, 05:49:49 PM »
It's there such a thing as a beginner flight SIM? I'm not too keen on spending a load on joysticks, track irs (whatever they are!)and the other bits of kit

The Third Wire titles are good if you want to fly jets.

Offline Toonces

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Re: DCS Discussion
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2013, 05:50:23 PM »
I love you Google!

Edit: Click on the link "Falcon Epopee" to read the story:

https://sites.google.com/site/falcon4history/


"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

"Maybe the slightly sullen look is blaming you for making her feel dirty, wanting to be hot. Yes, it's your fault." - Biggs (again)

"That's what you get when you are getting older and less sober as I am." - SirAndrewD

"Toonces Drunk - (adj) Tooh-nsays Dru-nk Descr:  Smash into a room, insult all your friends, fall asleep for 2 days, naked, face down wearing nothing but ALL your watches on one arm."  - UCG

Offline jomni

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Re: DCS Discussion
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2013, 05:51:09 PM »
@ Yassy-
I think the reason BMS installs over original Falcon rather than Allied Force is because the basis of BMS is the leaked source code.  From what I remember, just before MicroProse closed up a disgruntled employee posted up the Falcon source code on the internet.  If you remember eRazor, I think a lot of his mods were based upon that.

At any rate, BMS splintered or evolved from the OpenFalcon guys that were using the source code for their mod.  Freefalcon on the other hand actually bought the rights to Falcon and were therefore free to develop without being hassled.  The other groups have always been trying to stay one step ahead of the law. 

Allied Force was sanctioned or affiliated with Hasbro, which most definitely cares about their proprietary code. 

So, by using the Falcon 4 .exe I think BMS exploits a loophole and can call itself a "mod" for Falcon.  Since MicroProse no longer exists, nobody gives a shit.  But if they had developed based on Allied Force they'd likely have been shut down. 

It's very much a gray area.  I think that it is one of the reasons BMS is so super-sensitive about any discussions of payment on their website; the last thing they want is for anyone to even perceive that they might be making money from Falcon.

The development of Falcon is a very interesting story.  I'll see if I can find the link to the story- it's interesting even if you're not into the sim.

Wow. I didn't know that.

Offline Toonces

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Re: DCS Discussion
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2013, 05:53:38 PM »
I think what happened is that a bunch of guys formed a development group- Falcon Unified Team (F4UT).  Half the guys split off and sold the work as a derivative Allied Force, while the other half stayed with free development and evolved into Freefalcon.  It's one of the reasons you see so much animosity between the modding groups.

Like I said, the history is very interesting, even if you're not into Falcon.
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

"Maybe the slightly sullen look is blaming you for making her feel dirty, wanting to be hot. Yes, it's your fault." - Biggs (again)

"That's what you get when you are getting older and less sober as I am." - SirAndrewD

"Toonces Drunk - (adj) Tooh-nsays Dru-nk Descr:  Smash into a room, insult all your friends, fall asleep for 2 days, naked, face down wearing nothing but ALL your watches on one arm."  - UCG

Offline Father Ted

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Re: DCS Discussion
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2013, 04:51:55 AM »
It's there such a thing as a beginner flight SIM? I'm not too keen on spending a load on joysticks, track irs (whatever they are!)and the other bits of kit

I think that, as a start, you need a joystick that has a point-of-view hat (for looking around), a twisty stick ( to operate rudder) and a slider (for throttle).  Most "entry level" sticks fit that bill for around £20-£30.  They won't have the fidelity and functionality of a £100 HOTAS system, but you can certainly enjoy flying with them.

As to the games, well most have difficulty settings so that you can vary between gaming and simming.  RoF is free, so you'll lose nothing by trying.  I think it's lovely to look at and fly around in, but the combat needs working at if you're not to be frustrated.  The old warhorse IL2 1946 is only £6 on Steam.  It's less pretty than newer games but will run on practically anything and has loads of planes and user-made missions and campaigns.

I don't know War Thunder.

Offline Staggerwing

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Re: DCS Discussion
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2013, 05:10:12 AM »
IL2-1946 is also available from GOG for $10 US if you want a non-drm version. It includes some of the typical GOG goodies such as a  manual (37 pages), 325 renders, aircraft guide (459 pages), and reference card. You get a butt-load of aircraft content with that game.

http://www.gog.com/game/il_2_sturmovik_1946
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Offline JudgeDredd

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Re: DCS Discussion
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2013, 05:36:36 AM »
I wouldn't say ROF is an entry level sim. it's good fun and looks amazing...unless shooting down nothing will aggravate you...in which case your enjoyment will be extremely limited.
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Offline Yskonyn

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Re: DCS Discussion
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2013, 01:41:25 PM »
@Toonces; thanks. I am well aware of the history of Falcon and its many different modding groups of yore.

In a way BMS is indeed a step backwards from versions we had in the past, but it is also the sole actively worked on version and the version with the most Graphical updates.
Its just a bummer they have not or cannot fix the campaign properly or at least functionality made it on par with the one in F4AF.
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