Author Topic: Kursk: Germany's lost victory?  (Read 3986 times)

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Offline bob48

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Re: Kursk: Germany's lost victory?
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2013, 10:18:23 AM »
I cannot remember reading any accounts of vehicles such as the Sturm Tiger (of which there were only about 14 produced from damaged vehicles) or the SturmPz IV having any impact on any battle. Even the JpPz IV was recorded as being a very awkward vehicle to maneuver due to its being 'nose-heavy' because of the overhang of the 75mm L70 gun (as fitted to the Panther).

I read Otto Carius' memiors a couple of years back. Late in the war he was given some kind of tank destroyer. I never quite figured out if it was a JdPz IV or a Jagdpanther. He claimed the sighting device was so fragile that the tank had to be driven with the gun locked down until just immediately before engagement. Problem was, to unlock the gun, someone had to jump out of the tank move to the front of the vehicle, and take down the locking bar.

Whoops.

Needless to say, he wasn't a big fan of that idea.

The Jagd Panther did not have a travel lock on the glacis plate, whereas some models of the JgPz IV did, so I guess that would be what he was refering to. An interesting fact is that late models of the JgPz IV can be recognised by looking at the front bogie wheels, which will have steel tyres. It was found that the rubber ones wore out very quickly because of the excesive weight at the front as mention before. The vehicle aslo had a nick-name; 'Guderian Enten' which I think translates roughly as 'hoax'.
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Offline GDS_Starfury

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Re: Kursk: Germany's lost victory?
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2013, 02:04:15 PM »
Im pretty sure Carius had a Jadgtiger by wars end.
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Offline GDS_Starfury

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Gus - I use sweatpants with flannel shorts to soak up my crotch sweat.

Banzai Cat - There is no "partial credit" in grammar. Like anal sex. It's either in, or it's not.

Mirth - We learned long ago that they key isn't to outrun Star, it's to outrun Gus.

Martok - I don't know if it's possible to have an "anti-boner"...but I now have one.

Gus - Celery is vile and has no reason to exist. Like underwear on Star.


Offline bob48

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Re: Kursk: Germany's lost victory?
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2013, 03:09:52 PM »
Oh no, as if there wasn't enough books on my wish list already!
'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers'

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Offline GDS_Starfury

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Re: Kursk: Germany's lost victory?
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2013, 03:13:57 PM »
I have them and they are quite excellent!  however $100 books are for special occasions.  8)
Gus - I use sweatpants with flannel shorts to soak up my crotch sweat.

Banzai Cat - There is no "partial credit" in grammar. Like anal sex. It's either in, or it's not.

Mirth - We learned long ago that they key isn't to outrun Star, it's to outrun Gus.

Martok - I don't know if it's possible to have an "anti-boner"...but I now have one.

Gus - Celery is vile and has no reason to exist. Like underwear on Star.


Offline Dolan50

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Re: Kursk: Germany's lost victory?
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2013, 07:12:46 AM »
"Kursk:The German View" by Steven Newton and "Decision in the Ukraine" by George Nipe are some thought provoking books about why the battle of Kursk was fought eventhough the Germans knew that the Russians were aware of when and where the attack was going to take place and why the Germans eventually called off the battle when it seemed liked they were on the brink of accomplishing their objectives.

Both these books I think are still available and able to be Googled and read on the internet.
I got a PDF copy of "Kursk the German View" off the internet and google books gives a pretty good amount of reading for the "Decision in the Ukraine" book.

While the invasion of Sicily played a small part in calling off the attack in the Kursk bulge,there were also other Soviet offensives being conducted along the entire length of the east front at this time that were drawing German reserves away from the Kursk salient,which in turn caused the Germans to alter their whole strategy from then on and for the duration of the war in Russia in the Summer of 43 from an offensive to defensive posture.

I don't think even if the Germans had won the battle of Kursk it would have had very much of a long lasting impact on the war in Russia.

The Germans were already scraping the bottom of their manpower pool even before the Kursk offensive.I also think at this time the German generals already knew the war was lost and the tide had completely turned in the Allied favor and the best they could hope for was to sue for peace.But as long as Hitler was in power that was never going to happen.

So,in the end period of the war just making their eventual defeat as costly as possible to the Allied armies arrayed against them was the only option left open to the German generals.
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Offline FarAway Sooner

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Re: Kursk: Germany's lost victory?
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2013, 07:49:04 PM »
Interesting stuff.  Was the problem with German weapons that they were too advanced and therefore lacking in quantity, that they were overengineered (and thus too hard to maintain in the field), or both?

The story by Clarke is interesting, but it focuses almost entirely on the technical aspects of such things.  It really overlooks the dynamic feedback loop between technology and doctrine.

I've grown increasingly intrigued by books that detail the doctrines used in fighting WW II.  Parshall & Tully's Shattered Sword gives a fascinating glimpse into various doctrines for each side (damage control, reconnaissance functions, carrier air group ops, etc.).  And Bergerud's Fire in the Sky gives an even more detailed account of the evolution of informal airfighting doctrine in the South Pacific from 1941-1943.  Both are among the best WW II books that I've read in recent years.

Does anybody know of other such books that pay significant attention to the evolution of doctrine (of any sort) during WW II?

Offline LongBlade

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Re: Kursk: Germany's lost victory?
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2013, 07:57:04 PM »
Interesting stuff.  Was the problem with German weapons that they were too advanced and therefore lacking in quantity, that they were overengineered (and thus too hard to maintain in the field), or both?

All of the above. The complexity and overengineered aspect of their equipment made them even more vulnerable to logistics problems.

The Allied strategic bombing campaign concentrated on logistical choke points like railroad yards, bridges, et al. We hammered those choke points quite thoroughly, and when a Pz V needs a 50 different widgets than a Pz IV, which has another 50 different from a Pz VI...it becomes a serious problem keeping all those tanks in good repair. Nevermind the fact that that we were doing our best to destroy them through the conventional means of attacking them on the battlefield.

Offline Dolan50

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Re: Kursk: Germany's lost victory?
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2013, 01:51:55 PM »
The Germans never had a chance if World domination was their ultimate aim.
The best they could have hoped for was a stalemate and only if they were able to knock the British and Russia out of the war before the United States became fully involved.

The Allied powers had already determined that Germany would lose the war it was only a question of when ,which is why the only option the Allies offered Germany was unconditional surrender.

There was absolutely know way the Germans could have triumphed over the combined economic might of both the U.S. and USSR.I don't even think if the Germans had developed the A-Bomb first it would have mattered.
Hitler and his band of morons bit off far more than they could chew and would have done well by themselves to have never ventured into Poland.
A Corporate Executive,a Democrat and a Republican walk into a room.The CEO walks in first and notices 10 cookies on a plate and pockets 9 of them,then turns to the Republican and whispers in his ear  and says "The Democrat is trying to steal your cookie".