Author Topic: Barbarossa or D-Day?  (Read 5636 times)

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Offline LongBlade

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Re: Barbarossa or D-Day?
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2013, 09:45:31 AM »
Question then - without Barbarossa, and a western europe focused Germany, would Russia have come to the allies aide without a reason to declare war on Germany?

Tough question.

Churchill was in no mood to make peace with Germany. That means eventually the US is going to war against the Axis.

Unless we can untangle that hypothesis Germany has to keep a bunch of forces tied up guarding their Atlantic wall. The UK has to be taken out of the equation. Even then it remains distinctly possible that the US could launch an amphibious assault across the ocean, but it's likely going to land in North Africa and then have to struggle into the northern Med some place. It starts to get less likely, but it still could happen.

Assuming that Germany ties down its western front? Stalin, I think, was afraid of Germany. He's probably still purging his military for suspect political crimes. Germany gets to roll over the Soviets at their leisure.

Of course, then the question is how badly Hitler bungles the offense. Because he's going to. He'll probably make Stalingrad a pissing contest because it has Stalin's name on it. So the 6th Army is going to get ground to freeze-dried dust. Where else will it go wrong?


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Re: Barbarossa or D-Day?
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2013, 10:04:42 AM »
The Eastern Front was the central front of WWII...in the minds of German and Soviet belligerents, German race policy, Lebensraum and about 100 other points. Even the UK amd US knew the Eastern Front was paramount, even if they would not admit it publicly.
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Offline bayonetbrant

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Re: Barbarossa or D-Day?
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2013, 10:06:18 AM »
always tried to stay away from Barbarossa - it was a massive mistake

but where was the 'mistake'?  Was it in its existence? Or the way it was handled?

Could an East-Front offensive succeed if it was limited in scope and intent?  What if is was just "capture the Ukraine and offer terms to Stalin" and stop there?  Gets you the breadbasket, Black Sea ports, and oil, all with a population that wasn't fond of the Russians.  But don't drive on Moscow, or over-commit north (other than to shore up the Polish border) and operate with a limited scope, and success is easier to achieve. 
Hit singles and quit swinging for HRs. 
Take the Ukraine by '42.  Pause.  Keep West front in check. 
Go back to East Front in '44 (b/c Allies are now tied down more in Africa/Italy w/ a peaceful East front, so D-Day isn't in '44) and take next objective.  Stop.  Consolidate. 
Deal with '46 invasion of France by US/UK (if it could even happen by then).

Basically, alternate which front you're fighting on, rather than both at once, by limiting scope and objectives.
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Offline LongBlade

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Re: Barbarossa or D-Day?
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2013, 10:15:08 AM »
always tried to stay away from Barbarossa - it was a massive mistake

but where was the 'mistake'?  Was it in its existence? Or the way it was handled?

Could an East-Front offensive succeed if it was limited in scope and intent?  What if is was just "capture the Ukraine and offer terms to Stalin" and stop there?  Gets you the breadbasket, Black Sea ports, and oil, all with a population that wasn't fond of the Russians.  But don't drive on Moscow, or over-commit north (other than to shore up the Polish border) and operate with a limited scope, and success is easier to achieve. 
Hit singles and quit swinging for HRs. 
Take the Ukraine by '42.  Pause.  Keep West front in check. 
Go back to East Front in '44 (b/c Allies are now tied down more in Africa/Italy w/ a peaceful East front, so D-Day isn't in '44) and take next objective.  Stop.  Consolidate. 
Deal with '46 invasion of France by US/UK (if it could even happen by then).

Basically, alternate which front you're fighting on, rather than both at once, by limiting scope and objectives.

That's a very sound strategy but I think it runs counter to the Germans' way of thinking.

Offline GDS_Starfury

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Re: Barbarossa or D-Day?
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2013, 10:48:32 AM »
in all of the strategic wargames Ive played its always payed off to delay the Big B by a year.  get the Atlantic under control, consolidate the minor areas and countries and set up your invasion.
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Offline Windigo

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Re: Barbarossa or D-Day?
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2013, 02:18:13 PM »
I think avoiding the declaration of war on america would have been the smartest move for germany, that and taking the hit invading britain.
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Re: Barbarossa or D-Day?
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2013, 02:47:53 PM »
I think avoiding the declaration of war on america would have been the smartest move for germany, that and taking the hit invading britain.

Even if they didn't declare war on the US how long would it really have been before the US declared war on them?  Especially if they made serious overtures to invade Britain.
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Offline Windigo

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Re: Barbarossa or D-Day?
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2013, 03:35:38 PM »
I think avoiding the declaration of war on america would have been the smartest move for germany, that and taking the hit invading britain.

Even if they didn't declare war on the US how long would it really have been before the US declared war on them?  Especially if they made serious overtures to invade Britain.

IMO America would have stayed out of it for years, even if UK was going down.
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Re: Barbarossa or D-Day?
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2013, 05:51:26 PM »
If Hitler did not declare war on the US, there was practicly no chance of FDR orchestrating a declaration of war on Germany for at least three years.
After Pearl Harbor, the focus of the american public and congress was Japan.  That would not have changed without some german Pearl Harbor, or if they had made the great mistake of declaring their alliance with Japan and going to war against america.
So obvious, who could be that dumb?
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Offline Gusington

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Re: Barbarossa or D-Day?
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2013, 08:02:28 AM »
Adolf Hitler?
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Re: Barbarossa or D-Day?
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2013, 11:44:47 AM »
“Most gods throw dice, but Fate plays chess, and you don’t find out until too late that he’s been playing with two queens all along”.  Terry Pratchett.

During filming of Airplane, Leslie Nielsen used a whoopee cushion to keep the cast off-balance. Hays said that Nielsen "played that thing like a maestro"

Tallulah Bankhead: "I'll come and make love to you at five o'clock. If I'm late, start without me."

"When all other trusts fail, turn to Flashman." — Abraham Lincoln.

"I have enjoyed very warm relations with my two husbands."
"With your eyes closed?"
"That helped."  Lauren Bacall

Master Chiefs are sneaky, dastardly, and snarky miscreants who thrive on the tears of Ensigns and belly dancers.   Admiral Gerry Bogan.

Offline Staggerwing

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Re: Barbarossa or D-Day?
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2013, 12:33:57 PM »
Pretty funny as well:

http://youtu.be/0mmIR9xaYi8

(Note, subtitles NSFW)
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Offline TheCommandTent

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Re: Barbarossa or D-Day?
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2013, 01:45:40 PM »
This may be my favorite


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Re: Barbarossa or D-Day?
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2013, 02:24:56 PM »
On a serious note, (but just for a moment), there is a book I'd like to recommend.

http://www.amazon.com/Nomonhan-1939-Armys-Victory-Shaped/dp/1591143292/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372623507&sr=8-1&keywords=nomonhan+1939

There is only a little "military" history, maybe a third of the book is about the actual battle and fighting.
However, if you have ever wondered why Japan did not pile on Russia at some point in the war, this book has the most comprehensive treatment.
If you're familiar with the battle, it will be no surprise how little the Japanese appreciated modern warfare in 1939. lt took them totally by surprise the way Zhukov fought the battle, using massed artillery and tanks.  No fighting in China prepared them for this type of war.
Later, when Barbarossa was surging, they stayed out because of their resounding defeat by the Red army.
Also, for gamers, there is a section of "what if" concerning if the battle had not occurred in reality.  The author makes some sharp suggestions of what would have happened then.
“Most gods throw dice, but Fate plays chess, and you don’t find out until too late that he’s been playing with two queens all along”.  Terry Pratchett.

During filming of Airplane, Leslie Nielsen used a whoopee cushion to keep the cast off-balance. Hays said that Nielsen "played that thing like a maestro"

Tallulah Bankhead: "I'll come and make love to you at five o'clock. If I'm late, start without me."

"When all other trusts fail, turn to Flashman." — Abraham Lincoln.

"I have enjoyed very warm relations with my two husbands."
"With your eyes closed?"
"That helped."  Lauren Bacall

Master Chiefs are sneaky, dastardly, and snarky miscreants who thrive on the tears of Ensigns and belly dancers.   Admiral Gerry Bogan.

Offline LongBlade

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Re: Barbarossa or D-Day?
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2013, 04:39:20 PM »
On a serious note, (but just for a moment), there is a book I'd like to recommend.

http://www.amazon.com/Nomonhan-1939-Armys-Victory-Shaped/dp/1591143292/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372623507&sr=8-1&keywords=nomonhan+1939

There is only a little "military" history, maybe a third of the book is about the actual battle and fighting.
However, if you have ever wondered why Japan did not pile on Russia at some point in the war, this book has the most comprehensive treatment.
If you're familiar with the battle, it will be no surprise how little the Japanese appreciated modern warfare in 1939. lt took them totally by surprise the way Zhukov fought the battle, using massed artillery and tanks.  No fighting in China prepared them for this type of war.
Later, when Barbarossa was surging, they stayed out because of their resounding defeat by the Red army.
Also, for gamers, there is a section of "what if" concerning if the battle had not occurred in reality.  The author makes some sharp suggestions of what would have happened then.

Thanks. Added to the list :)