Author Topic: Radio Commander...  (Read 3704 times)

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Offline SirAndrewD

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Re: Radio Commander...
« Reply #60 on: March 27, 2019, 02:02:00 PM »
In all seriousness though...

I'm keeping an open mind.

I wasn't in the military and clearly never in Vietnam.  However, I do have degrees in history, and taught the subject extensively.  More importantly, I had the real pleasure to directly study the subject under my mentor and friend Dr. Qiang Zhai, who is absolutely an expert, widely acknowledged as such, and the author of two major works on the subject.  I had a few minor academic publication on the subject (more oriented on its impact in the greater Cold War)  in my post-grad years.

I've known personally and interviewed dozens of Vietnam vets.  In my hobby circles I have a lot of friends who were in Vietnam.  My own step-father-in-law was a medic in the war.  So I feel I've got a good basic background.

That said, I do acknowledge that the war was complex, as was America at the time.  I absolutely don't discount that America and many of the men that fought in the war were in the middle of an era of tremendous social pressures including Civil Rights, the rise of Socialism/Communism, the birth of the modern Right and Left movements ect. 

What I do hope is represented is, something I found very often in my studies, is the professionalism of the American soldier in the war.  Hollywood sometimes downplays this in an effort to tell the wider story of the political context of the war.  I can understand their point, it's actually hard to tell a story about Vietnam without its politics.  It was very heavily integrated in every aspect of the wider conflict.

But Hollywood sometimes gravitates more towards Oliver Stone chaos than a lot of what I've seen directly represented in the veterans that I've at least had the pleasure to know.  Those veterans were complex people who by their stories, comported themselves as professionals when in a dangerous combat situation.  They had little choice but to do otherwise, because to do otherwise endangered themselves and others.  This is something that is, at least mildly, underrepresented in the American historical memory of the conflict.

On the scale of John Wayne in the Green Berets, and Oliver Stone in Born on the Fourth of July, the truth as usual lies somewhere in between. 

On a game that focuses mostly on the servicemen doing their job, facing a determined enemy, with their lives and the lives of their fellow soldiers at risk, I just hope the game portrays them as the by and large, brave professionals that the majority of the fighting men were. 


Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Radio Commander...
« Reply #61 on: March 27, 2019, 02:49:51 PM »
Well said!

Also, mental note to myself, to look up some books by Prof. Zhai.  8)
FIRE IN THE GROGS TOO -- a four-player full team mp of GMT's Vietnam War boardgame Fire in the Lake, recreated in TTS.

The GROGPUBLIC OF ROME ongoing forum game thread

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

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Offline SirAndrewD

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Re: Radio Commander...
« Reply #62 on: March 27, 2019, 03:02:20 PM »
Well said!

Also, mental note to myself, to look up some books by Prof. Zhai.  8)

If you want to read the one I was studying under him while writing, check out China and the Vietnam Wars 1950-75 (With a forward by none other than John Lewis Gaddis himself).

He's a super humble guy and was a great friend when I was still in school.  He learned history and English illegally while working at a bicycle factory, where he'd been assigned by the Cultural Revolution. 

Brilliant guy.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 03:07:47 PM by SirAndrewD »

Offline Gusington

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Re: Radio Commander...
« Reply #63 on: March 27, 2019, 04:41:02 PM »
When you 'WANT' artillery to fire off. And yes even though there is a whole rigamarole to go through to get artillery to fire...why risk it?
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Offline Apocalypse 31

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Re: Radio Commander...
« Reply #64 on: March 27, 2019, 06:54:51 PM »
Quote
On a game that focuses mostly on the servicemen doing their job, facing a determined enemy, with their lives and the lives of their fellow soldiers at risk, I just hope the game portrays them as the by and large, brave professionals that the majority of the fighting men were
.

The Village by Bing West
Platoon Leader by Jack Macdonough
It Doesn't Take A Hero by Norman Schwarzkopf

Those are my 3 recommended readings for the developers. I've personally read The Village three times.


Offline The_Admiral

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Re: Radio Commander...
« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2019, 07:08:08 PM »
Quote
I saw the Polish comment after I posted, but honestly,
I don't care if the entire team is made up of Nobel Prize winners. The image that they are portraying about a war they blatantly know nothing about is ridiculous and seems like Russian themes and messaging about US conflicts. Good job developers, I just classified you as your enemy by accident...that's how far off you are.
I find it remarkable, how you seem to be easily offended (in the name of other people) by the preview of a digital product, and still manage to offend others in return with your own assumptions, throwing names left and right (The Russian = The Enemy ? You are aware you’re posting on an international board, right :-" ?). You arguably wouldn’t be completely out of place in the tongue-in-the-cheek video intro to their campaign… It seems that political satire is not that far away from reality, even half a century later.

Again, I don't agree with your argument, which seems centered on some obsession with disparaging their work through a supposedly absence of actual knowledge - it just doesn't reflect their work. A mere inspection of the content readily available would be enough to see that there was research involved. Their personal take on the conflict, military ops and the tone they elected to use eventually are the result of a deliberate choice, and the whole thing is a labor of love – and to me they just love the topic differently from the way you do. It’s a bit easy to call people ignorant just because they don’t share your philosophy about something you hold dearly. Refraining from doing so is called tolerance, a concept that sums up the original reason why your troops, our troops – and Polish troops –  are fighting for out there.

Your reading suggestions are already a much healthier way of interacting with them devs btw... Thanks, I will gladly have a look at this literature too.

From a more technical, gameplay standpoint, from what I have seen and experienced, the first missions are part of a larger story and are here to set the mood. From the looks of it I am pretty sure the scriptwriter doesn’t have any sort of hidden SJW agenda or anti-imperialistic hippie crap to sell you, and the player is always given a few choices for the chatter interaction. They sure have their own idea of what the Vietnam generation was or stood for, but we obviously all do, and although their take is certainly not academic, it is no less legitimate than any other cultural representation of the period. In the end, the legacy of the nam now belongs to a broader international audience than a conflict like this would warrant initially - you can't feed people Apocalypse Now, Platoon or Rambo all day, and find it strange afterwards that someone out there, in another country, might become fascinated with this monster of a pop culture topic.

They already said they’re not making a wargame and I respect their design choice, which is all the more realistic considering the size of the team. The player is made to move intentionally plain markers around on a map full of hidden dangers. That means the story is there so that your attachment to your men may grow on you eventually, in order to take the place of the bond you would naturally develop when playing God in a classic, all-knowing wargame setting. Beyond the usual boy-on-boy chatter everybody is used to in a locker room (apologies in advance if ladies are reading this), or when one’s team or troops need to blow off some steam, I trust that representing the boys as heartless, racist, uncaring monsters won’t do the trick and will go against the original goal, so I’d say: let’s just wait and see how they make it happen. It’s taking place unrealistically on the comms so that you could have some part in it, but in all honesty the content is no different from the usual chatter you’d hear from Brad and Ray in Generation Kill, is it… The quality of the writing is another story entirely, especially on the long-run, but as Sir Andrew said in his knowledgeable and fair assessment, I’d rather wait and see.

It’s like anything else, don’t judge a book from its cover or a movie from its poster. Sometimes, if not most of the time you’re right – but there are still good surprises, every now and then.


Since we're talking about authenticity and radio comms...you would just say, "out". Never "over & out". That just confuses the hell out of people and pisses them off.  :crazy2:
Touché :buck2:
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 07:25:06 PM by The_Admiral »

Offline SirAndrewD

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Re: Radio Commander...
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2019, 08:06:45 PM »

The Village by Bing West
Platoon Leader by Jack Macdonough
It Doesn't Take A Hero by Norman Schwarzkopf

Those are my 3 recommended readings for the developers. I've personally read The Village three times.

I've read The Village.  Yes, it's very good. 

For a very strong overview of the conflict, including political factors, I'd also recommend America's Longest War by Dr. George Herring.  For a while it was considered one of the seminal works on the conflict.

Offline SirAndrewD

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Re: Radio Commander...
« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2019, 08:13:52 PM »

It’s like anything else, don’t judge a book from its cover or a movie from its poster. Sometimes, if not most of the time you’re right – but there are still good surprises, every now and then.



This is pretty much the angle I'm taking. 

Game design is as much a creative endeavor as it is anything else.  They're making a piece of entertainment.  I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt on it for the most part. 

I tend to get a bit hot headed in my defense of history and desire to see it accurately represented.  But I also respect the amount of work it takes to make a game, for gamers and to tell a story at the same time. 

I hope the developers find a balance.  I'm absolutely willing to give it a chance.  If they push heavy for the Hollywood story side though, heck, I may still play it, but I'll also wish for something a more Groggy.

Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Radio Commander...
« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2019, 02:28:59 PM »


Rimmy thinks the radio chat is way too chatty, too -- but he loves the characterization in the chat. So, balanced preview.
FIRE IN THE GROGS TOO -- a four-player full team mp of GMT's Vietnam War boardgame Fire in the Lake, recreated in TTS.

The GROGPUBLIC OF ROME ongoing forum game thread

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Season One complete; Fantasy Wars AAR

The full pdf of Cry of Justice has been posted to the Grogheads Book category here.

Offline CJReich46

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Re: Radio Commander...
« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2019, 05:52:17 PM »


Rimmy thinks the radio chat is way too chatty, too -- but he loves the characterization in the chat. So, balanced preview.


I find the concept intriguing too.
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To win or lose it all.”  - James Graham 1st Marquess of Montrose