Author Topic: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread  (Read 47717 times)

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Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #945 on: January 03, 2019, 03:47:43 PM »
Shouldn't we put these petty disputes behind us an focus on building the empire in a way that will benefit us all?

ACK, HE'S AN IMPERIALIST!

...not helping your case there.  >:D  ;D
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Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

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Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #946 on: January 04, 2019, 04:12:14 PM »
Okay, back from work. Let's see where we're at.

The Frog would like AzTank's new Statesman Paullus Macedonicus to Advocate for him. He'll have to check in and agree, but we can move along until the final Trial until then.

There hasn't been a voting order posted yet by Erax/Flaminius.

The Trial starts with Acilius' Influence giving him 16 votes FOR Acquittal.

We can naturally expect the Plutocrats to add another 15 normal votes FOR acquittal for a running total of +31.

Technically the Frog hasn't voted yet however! -- I'm just reporting an expectation. He reserves the right to make a Popular Appeal when the time comes for the Plutocrats to vote.

In a similar vein, although he hasn't actually voted yet, we can expect Erax's Progressives to put in -9 votes, with another -4 activist knight votes, producing an expected net +18 votes FOR Acquittal.

Malize hasn't accepted Cato the elder as Prosecutor yet, much as AzTank hasn't accepted Paullus as Advocate yet. IF they do, we could expect -23 normal votes (including popularity) from the Populists, and +13 from the Conservatives. (NOTE! -- the Conservative activist vote only activates when opposing Proposals, which this trial is not!)

Current running tally then:

Acilius Influence +16
This is the only figure we know for sure yet.

Plutocrat vote +15 (expected)
Progressive vote -9 (expected)
Progressive activist vote -4 (expected)
Populist vote -23 (expected)
Conservative vote +13 (expected)
= +8 net votes FOR Acquittal (expected so far)

As Players weigh in, we'll lock in -- or possibly change -- those factors.

Potentially the Militarists and Aristocrats could plunge the vote either way. The Aristos have 23 (including activated activist) votes at stake, and the Militarists have 17.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 04:14:25 PM by JasonPratt »
FIRE IN THE GROGS TOO -- a four-player full team mp of GMT's Vietnam War boardgame Fire in the Lake, recreated in TTS.

The GROGPUBLIC OF ROME ongoing forum game thread

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

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Offline IncompetentIdiot

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #947 on: January 04, 2019, 06:57:01 PM »
The Aristocrats will vote against acquittal.

Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #948 on: January 04, 2019, 07:50:06 PM »
Current running tally then:

Acilius Influence +16
Aristocrats -23
I suppose at this point we can include Progressive votes -9 and -4, since there's no reason for him to vote otherwise.
(I couldn't entirely assume that until I saw at least one other Player backing his play, since last Turn remember no one backed I.I.'s Prosecution after he thought he had support, and he ended up having to vote against his own Prosecution to avoid losing Influence!)
Net tally: -20 votes AGAINST Acquittal (FOR Conviction)
These are the only figures we know for sure yet.

Plutocrat vote +15 (expected, but duh -- technically)
Populist vote -23 (expected)
Conservative vote +13 (expected)
= -15 net votes AGAINST Acquittal (expected so far)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 07:54:16 PM by JasonPratt »
FIRE IN THE GROGS TOO -- a four-player full team mp of GMT's Vietnam War boardgame Fire in the Lake, recreated in TTS.

The GROGPUBLIC OF ROME ongoing forum game thread

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Season One complete; Fantasy Wars AAR

The full pdf of Cry of Justice has been posted to the Grogheads Book category here.

Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #949 on: January 04, 2019, 08:04:10 PM »
Note that if the Militarists follow the coterie, and if the other expected votes run out, the net vote of -32 could still be beat by two excellent rolls on Popular Appeal and the final Trial votes. (Or by one boxcar roll on Pop Appeal, which will grant immediate freedom by mob rescue!)
FIRE IN THE GROGS TOO -- a four-player full team mp of GMT's Vietnam War boardgame Fire in the Lake, recreated in TTS.

The GROGPUBLIC OF ROME ongoing forum game thread

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Season One complete; Fantasy Wars AAR

The full pdf of Cry of Justice has been posted to the Grogheads Book category here.

Offline ArizonaTank

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #950 on: January 05, 2019, 07:34:25 AM »
Okay, back from work. Let's see where we're at.

The Frog would like AzTank's new Statesman Paullus Macedonicus to Advocate for him. He'll have to check in and agree, but we can move along until the final Trial until then.


The conservatives agree
"Outlined against a blue-gray October sky, the Four Horsemen rode again. In dramatic lore they are known as Famine, Pestilence, Destruction and Death. These are only aliases. Their real names are Stuhldreher, Miller, Crowley and Layden."   Grantland Rice, New York Herald Tribune, October 18th, 1924. 

Notre Dame wins at Army, 13 - 7, Oct. 18, 1924

Notre Dame undefeated 1924
Coach: Knute Rockne

Offline malize

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #951 on: January 05, 2019, 08:34:45 AM »
Cato will do his duty as requested by the state

This was my acceptance as prosecutor, my votes will back Cato's role.

Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #952 on: January 05, 2019, 11:39:55 AM »
Current running tally then:

Acilius Influence +16
Aristocrats -23
I suppose at this point we can include Progressive votes -9 and -4, since there's no reason for him to vote otherwise.
Populist vote -23
Conservative vote +13

Net tally: -30 votes AGAINST Acquittal (FOR Conviction)
These are the figures we know for sure yet.

Plutocrat vote +15 (expected, but duh -- technically)
= -15 net votes AGAINST Acquittal (expected so far)

We're lacking Tripoli's 17 votes, and technically the Plutocrats (who are reserving until the Frog checks whether he should make a popular appeal, which must happen during his voting.)


Meanwhile, let me drop a reminder to myself, that according to my newly revised Progressive activist rules, if Erax's knights activate double-votes -- which they have done here -- their senator(s) will get 1 Influence win or lose. (Or 4 Influence if voting against one of their own senators gain or for his harm!) I'm not where I can process that yet, but I could go ahead and do so when I get a chance since the outcome doesn't matter at this point.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 11:42:03 AM by JasonPratt »
FIRE IN THE GROGS TOO -- a four-player full team mp of GMT's Vietnam War boardgame Fire in the Lake, recreated in TTS.

The GROGPUBLIC OF ROME ongoing forum game thread

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Season One complete; Fantasy Wars AAR

The full pdf of Cry of Justice has been posted to the Grogheads Book category here.

Offline Tripoli

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #953 on: January 05, 2019, 01:18:57 PM »
Current running tally then:

Acilius Influence +16
Aristocrats -23
I suppose at this point we can include Progressive votes -9 and -4, since there's no reason for him to vote otherwise.
Populist vote -23
Conservative vote +13

Net tally: -30 votes AGAINST Acquittal (FOR Conviction)
These are the figures we know for sure yet.

Plutocrat vote +15 (expected, but duh -- technically)
= -15 net votes AGAINST Acquittal (expected so far)

We're lacking Tripoli's 17 votes, and technically the Plutocrats (who are reserving until the Frog checks whether he should make a popular appeal, which must happen during his voting.)



Hanging's to Good for Him!  The militarists vote for conviction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVX4zGX3iWg

Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #954 on: January 05, 2019, 01:58:42 PM »
With that, the Net expected votes (including Plutocrats eventually) comes to -32 AGAINST Acquittal.

We still don't have dice-rolling capability yet, so I'll have to wait until I get back home (at work doing eoy inventory) see what the Popular appeal brings.

If he rolls 2, he dies period, and his Advocate will make one draw from the death bag to see if he dies, too.

If he rolls 12, he's instantly freed, and there will be two draws from the death bag to see if the Censor and/or Prosecutor's number comes up.

However, no other result from the popular appeal (at most 16 votes For Acquittal) will combine with his 15 votes to save him: he'll be -1 short at best.

He could still pull out a win with some risk after the adjusted 2d6 roll of the final trial (which would be adjusted 2 points against him by the relative Oratory skills of the Prosecutor and Advocate). But I have been instructed that if he doesn't get freed by the Popular Appeal, then don't risk losing the Trial: veto it with the PontMax.

I have double checked the Living Rules, and nothing specifically is said about the PontMax being unable to veto his own Trial. He explicitly cannot veto his own Removal Proposition, and he can veto trials (i.e. anything a Tribune could normally veto). The Living Rules usually take Advanced Rules into account (that's why there are blue-lettered marks in the rules). I can understand why it would be irregular, but it isn't strictly illegal so far as I can tell.

If any other rule-hounds want to check on that, now's the time!

Otherwise, he'll be rolling (with a gamble on his life in case he hard fails) on whether or not he needs to spend his PontMax veto this Turn on defending himself. But then of course he won't be able to use that veto again this Turn.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 02:48:41 PM by JasonPratt »
FIRE IN THE GROGS TOO -- a four-player full team mp of GMT's Vietnam War boardgame Fire in the Lake, recreated in TTS.

The GROGPUBLIC OF ROME ongoing forum game thread

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Season One complete; Fantasy Wars AAR

The full pdf of Cry of Justice has been posted to the Grogheads Book category here.

Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #955 on: January 05, 2019, 02:49:44 PM »
Before I roll the Pop Appeal, some Progressive bookkeeping:

Since the Progressive knights activated x2 votes, win or lose their senators Flaminius and Calpurnicus each gain 1 Influence (according to the updated Faction special abilities I instituted before the Senate started), up to 17 and 3 respectively. New total Influence 22.
FIRE IN THE GROGS TOO -- a four-player full team mp of GMT's Vietnam War boardgame Fire in the Lake, recreated in TTS.

The GROGPUBLIC OF ROME ongoing forum game thread

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Season One complete; Fantasy Wars AAR

The full pdf of Cry of Justice has been posted to the Grogheads Book category here.

Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #956 on: January 05, 2019, 03:09:52 PM »
2d6 rolls 3+4, which is 7, which means no change, but more importantly means he isn't freed (or killed) by the people.

So the PontMax vetos his own Trial.

....I'm not gonna lie, I find this unacceptably weird.  >:(

After triple and quadruple checking the Living Rules again, I looked into the Sabrerules to see if I had already house ruled some time ago on this topic. And indeed! -- while it doesn't say it's a house rule, my note 2.3.5.8.1) reads quite more explicitly than the April 2018 Living Rules. Whether that's because I found an earlier version of the Valley Games PontMax rule that made more sense to me (I do have an earlier version for reference; PontMaxes weren't available in the Avalon Hill rules), or because I house ruled it:

Quote
the PontMax senator may, without playing a Tribune, veto one proposal per turn (except a proposal to strip him of PontMax office!), before any senator in his faction starts voting, if the proposal could be vetoed by a Tribune. (Trials are not proposals, so are immune to PontMax veto.)


I think this is a much more balanced approach, since it doesn't really make sense that the PontMax should be able to veto his own Trial; and it limits his veto power a little more broadly, too, by restricting it to Proposals only. Since I'm clearly house ruling here, I could be persuaded that the PontMax would be able to veto a Trial, too, but not his own, on the same principle that he cannot veto his own Removal Proposal. Opinions are welcome, but remember I'll enforce the result equally hereafter!

Relatedly, the Frog might have tried more negotiation tactics if I hadn't forgotten I had written this house rule, so my lapse could be argued to have affected the result significantly.

Therefore: I am going to rule as fairly as I can see to do so, that this is the final turn that the PontMax will be able to veto his own Trial, and henceforth some version of the Sabrerule house rule will be in effect (either avoiding anything beyond Proposal vetos for the PontMax, or at least not allowing him to veto his own Trial.)
FIRE IN THE GROGS TOO -- a four-player full team mp of GMT's Vietnam War boardgame Fire in the Lake, recreated in TTS.

The GROGPUBLIC OF ROME ongoing forum game thread

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Season One complete; Fantasy Wars AAR

The full pdf of Cry of Justice has been posted to the Grogheads Book category here.

Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #957 on: January 05, 2019, 03:14:19 PM »
Now, results for a veto'd Trial. The Trial is Canceled, without Acquittal or Conviction, so no one gains or loses from those results (other than the veto being used up this Turn of course).

However! -- while a Canceled Trial uses up one Prosecution attempt, a Canceled Trial does NOT remove the Defendant's Suspicion marker! (I just double checked; this is in the Sabrerule flowchart, too!)

This means Flaminius the Censor can launch a second Minor Investigation this Turn; and he can launch it again at Acilius for Minor Suspicion of Office Corruption; and he can appoint the same Prosecutor (Cato the Elder) if he wants; etc.

Everyone can vote the same way they did before, which I will assume unless someone explicitly tells me otherwise!


In effect, this means everyone has a chance to change their mind on the vote, or not; and the Popular Appeal gets a re-roll; and unless the Frog has a Tribune and chooses to throw it for another veto (and unless he rolls a 2 or 12 on the Pop Appeal) we'll go on into the final Trial.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 03:23:10 PM by JasonPratt »
FIRE IN THE GROGS TOO -- a four-player full team mp of GMT's Vietnam War boardgame Fire in the Lake, recreated in TTS.

The GROGPUBLIC OF ROME ongoing forum game thread

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Season One complete; Fantasy Wars AAR

The full pdf of Cry of Justice has been posted to the Grogheads Book category here.

Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #958 on: January 05, 2019, 03:52:01 PM »
Let me add that if the Players prefer to keep the implicit allowance of the Living Rules, and allow PontMaxes to veto their own Trials (using up their veto per turn), I'll be okay with that, too.  O:-) Certainly an argument can be made that way as well.

Please feel free to weigh in with your preferences!


The result won't affect this Turn, however, so we're going onward: unless I hear otherwise, whereupon I'll retcon voting results, then I'll assume provisionally that everyone is doing the same things again in a second Prosecution of Investigation for Minor Corruption of PontMax Office.

Current running tally then:

Acilius Influence (note actual senator votes yet!) +16
Aristocrats -23 (including activist)
Progressive votes -13 (including activist) -- this means his senators with knights will each earn a point of Influence again, btw.
Populist vote -23
Conservative vote +13
Militarist vote -17

That's -47 AGAINST Acquittal.

This time on the popular appeal Acilius rolls 6+2=8.

That's +4 votes in his favor.

However, even with him casting his senators' official 15 votes, that leaves -28 against him.

And with the -2 die-roll-modifier against the final Trial roll, thanks to Cato's Oratory vs. Paullus', then at absolute best Acilius could only get +12 more votes.
FIRE IN THE GROGS TOO -- a four-player full team mp of GMT's Vietnam War boardgame Fire in the Lake, recreated in TTS.

The GROGPUBLIC OF ROME ongoing forum game thread

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Season One complete; Fantasy Wars AAR

The full pdf of Cry of Justice has been posted to the Grogheads Book category here.

Offline JasonPratt

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Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
« Reply #959 on: January 05, 2019, 05:56:40 PM »
Provisionally allowing for some asynchronous alterations in voting or whatever, the Prosecution returns a Minor Guilty verdict against PontMax Acilius.

The first result in any case would be that Flaminius and Calpurnicus of the Progressives, having activist knights voting in the Progressive special abilities, each gain another 1 Influence, up to 18 and 4 respectively. New Progressive total Influence 24.

Second, Acilius loses his Major Suspicion Mark. His Prosecutor, Populist Cato the Elder, did not yet have a Prior Consul mark, and Acilius did, so the mark shifts to Cato. He can now be elected Censor, but Acilius cannot. Acilius loses 5 Popularity, down to -5 (the first Unpopular senator in the game); and loses 5 Influence down to 11. Plutocrat total Influence now down to 45.

Third, Prosecutor Cato of the Populists gains half (rounded up) of the 5 lost Influence of the Accused, going up 3 Influence from 1 to 4. New Populist total Influence 15.

Fourth, this second Prosecution necessarily ends the Prosecution segment, so all senators in Rome removal all Suspicions.

Last, the Presiding Magistrate post passes back to Roman Consul and HRAO Manlius of the Militarists.

This also ends all Mandatory Business.

Manlius’ Player, Tripoli, must now consider all Other Business in the order he prefers to Propose it (or which may be Tribuned by Players).

Valid Other Business this Turn includes: possibly raising the 14th and/or 15th Legions (10 Talents each); possibly raising up to 15 Fleets (10 Talents each); possibly Disbanding up to 13 Active Legions (1st thru 13th; 1st being Veteran); Deploying Active Units in Forces with Commanders to fight Wars; Removing the PontMax from Office; and Reforming the Veterans.


This leads to the topic of Professional Training and Veteran status, which is very much a house rule in progress, and needs its own post. ;)
FIRE IN THE GROGS TOO -- a four-player full team mp of GMT's Vietnam War boardgame Fire in the Lake, recreated in TTS.

The GROGPUBLIC OF ROME ongoing forum game thread

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Season One complete; Fantasy Wars AAR

The full pdf of Cry of Justice has been posted to the Grogheads Book category here.