Author Topic: LnL - rules and difficulty  (Read 741 times)

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Offline JudgeDredd

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LnL - rules and difficulty
« on: May 13, 2017, 01:49:03 AM »
I have to ask here because I don't quite understand what my issue is.

The LnL game series. Specifically the Tactical System I think it's called.

I decided I was going to try and get into a game I bought some time ago - a game I should be very excited about and is right up my alley - Heroes of the Falklands.

I started reading the rules a couple of nights ago. 16 pages into the 50+ page "base" rules and I have to say I was starting to wonder how in gods name I was actually going to fire up a game. Not only was I starting to lose some of the stuff I had taken in, but I was starting, I think, to over complicate things - over think things - and so was getting confused  :pullhair:

So many acronyms. So many references to DFT and OFT and TMs and god knows what else. I was continually having to go back and see what MMC stood for and actually cannot recall exactly what it is now - multi man counter I think.

Anyway - what has actually transpired is I've dropped it. 16 pages of wasted time  :-[

Is there a "better" way of learning a game rather than just learning the rules? How do people here learn a system. Do you just use the rules? Do you read them right through before playing? If so, how many times? Do you play after reading some basic stuff? Watch videos? Read AARs? Play throughs?

I'd be interested to hear how other people manage to learn a board game system.
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Offline undercovergeek

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Re: LnL - rules and difficulty
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2017, 01:54:31 AM »
I know in the digital equivalent I'd be watching a let's play - is there a board game equivalent?

Short of putting it in a carrier bag and heading to one of those fancy games and donuts places

Offline JudgeDredd

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Re: LnL - rules and difficulty
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2017, 03:16:16 AM »
Yeah there are lets play videos. I know there are various tools out there - I was just wondering what other people's approach is.
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Offline Tinkershuffle

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Re: LnL - rules and difficulty
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2017, 04:44:33 AM »
With boardgames there's usually no easy way out because nothing happens automatically in the background. It helps if you have buddies who are willing to play the same games as you are but if you're soloing the struggle can be real. In a lot of games, like in CoH or COIN-series the rules are built in way that you can read a portion of the rules and then apply them into practise. LnL games aren't unfortunately one of those. We tried to play Heroes of the Gap a couple of weeks ago with Crossroads but we were really surprised with the complexity of the rules. We expected something along the lines of World at War but it was a way more detailed and confusing. So now we're rolling with CoH to get our squad level fix.  :P

Online Barthheart

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Re: LnL - rules and difficulty
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2017, 05:38:56 AM »
JD have you tried to use the walkthroughs that LnL has published?
http://forums.lnlpublishing.com/resources/lnlt-game-play-walkthrough.123/

It uses a Heroes of Normandy scenario but the rules are exactly the same for Falklands.

There's also this Sequence Guide that lays out how the games plays really well.
http://forums.lnlpublishing.com/resources/lnlt-rule-sequence-guide.101/

Charles Cab did a series of learning videos that are posted on his YouTube channel. I'm in some of these.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_YAQsIPJMi7EVmnQAIsQGOYSeTLsSW-4

The easiest way, I've found, to learn most games is to read the rules once through even if most doesn't make sense and you will not retain it all.
Then get some pieces on the board, and follow the sequence of play and try to do stuff while looking up the rules. Start with just a few units on each side and just try moving then shooting.
Make notes for yourself because everyone learns differently. List out the sequence of play then detail each step inside that.
Learning new games is always a process and takes time, especially on your own.

We could always try to connect with VASSAL and I could run you through the LnL rules if you'd like.

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Offline JudgeDredd

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Re: LnL - rules and difficulty
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2017, 05:43:07 AM »
With boardgames there's usually no easy way out because nothing happens automatically in the background. It helps if you have buddies who are willing to play the same games as you are but if you're soloing the struggle can be real. In a lot of games, like in CoH or COIN-series the rules are built in way that you can read a portion of the rules and then apply them into practise. LnL games aren't unfortunately one of those. We tried to play Heroes of the Gap a couple of weeks ago with Crossroads but we were really surprised with the complexity of the rules. We expected something along the lines of World at War but it was a way more detailed and confusing. So now we're rolling with CoH to get our squad level fix.  :P

Yeah - I have (at the moment) put the LnL rulebook to the side and dusted off CoH last night.

I'm a bit gutted because I wanted to get into a Falklands game - but I just don't have the time at the moment to read fairly complicated rules which aren't written in a very absorbing manner. Jus the first 2 pages of CoH made complete sense - totally not like the LnL rules.

I have Rebellion coming in the next week or so, so I wanted to get into a game before I get cracking that open.
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Offline JudgeDredd

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Re: LnL - rules and difficulty
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2017, 05:46:30 AM »
JD have you tried to use the walkthroughs that LnL has published?
http://forums.lnlpublishing.com/resources/lnlt-game-play-walkthrough.123/

It uses a Heroes of Normandy scenario but the rules are exactly the same for Falklands.

There's also this Sequence Guide that lays out how the games plays really well.
http://forums.lnlpublishing.com/resources/lnlt-rule-sequence-guide.101/

Charles Cab did a series of learning videos that are posted on his YouTube channel. I'm in some of these.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_YAQsIPJMi7EVmnQAIsQGOYSeTLsSW-4

The easiest way, I've found, to learn most games is to read the rules once through even if most doesn't make sense and you will not retain it all.
Then get some pieces on the board, and follow the sequence of play and try to do stuff while looking up the rules. Start with just a few units on each side and just try moving then shooting.
Make notes for yourself because everyone learns differently. List out the sequence of play then detail each step inside that.
Learning new games is always a process and takes time, especially on your own.

We could always try to connect with VASSAL and I could run you through the LnL rules if you'd like.
I didn't know about the walkthrough or the rule sequence - thank you.

As for videos, I was looking specifically for Falklands so didn't see those. I will have a look when I get some time...for now they are bookmarked, thanks  O0
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Online Barthheart

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Re: LnL - rules and difficulty
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2017, 05:51:52 AM »
Your welcome.  O0

There are no vids that I know of for Falklands... but the rules are exactly the same. Some of the weapons are different and have slightly different rules, but the basic rules of combat are the same.
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Offline JudgeDredd

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Re: LnL - rules and difficulty
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2017, 06:01:03 AM »
As you said, the walkthrough is for Normandy - is it feasible to play through it using Falklands or do I just use it as rules play through to see the rules "in action"?
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Re: LnL - rules and difficulty
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2017, 06:15:17 AM »
Just use it aa a rules walk through. I believe it uses the parts from the free print and play demo, so you could download that and push the actual pieces around.

The rule sequence I think you will find the most helpful with your Falklands game. It should get you playing fairly quickly.
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Offline JudgeDredd

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Re: LnL - rules and difficulty
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2017, 06:58:34 AM »
Thanks Barth.

I've got Band of Heroes - what are the differences between that and Heroes of games? Which came out first?

I can't even see Band of Heroes on the LnL website although Normandy is up there.
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Online bayonetbrant

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Re: LnL - rules and difficulty
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2017, 07:16:16 AM »
I've got Band of Heroes - what are the differences between that and Heroes of games? Which came out first?

Heroes of Normandy is the reprint of Band of Heroes, w/ some of the BoH expansion stuff that was published later.

The current line of "Heroes of ____" is the current series.
The older series wasn't always "Heroes of ____" Day of Heroes, Band of Heroes, Forgotten Heroes, etc.

The pieces / maps are all compatible.  The latest versions have the updated rules, with some reorganization / examples for clarity, but the rules system is essentially unchanged.

The 'old' Falklands game was an expansion to Band of Heroes, which was a WWII game.  You needed BoH to play the Falklands game b/c you needed the maps and admin markers.  The problem was, if you just wanted to play the Falklands, and had no interest in WWII, then you were stuck buying a pricey WWII game just for the 'extras' you needed to play the Falklands.

As it is now, if you buy all of the LNLT series, you'll end up with a metric monkey-load of extra admin counters, and possibly a few duplicate mapboards.  But if you only want 1 of the LNLT games - say, the Falklands because you actually fought in the war - you don't have to buy a bunch of non-Falklands stuff to get it.
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Offline JudgeDredd

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Re: LnL - rules and difficulty
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2017, 07:25:04 AM »
 O0

Thanks.

Good to know the Heroes of is the latest branch of the games
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Re: LnL - rules and difficulty
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2017, 08:38:01 AM »
Thanks Barth.

I've got Band of Heroes - what are the differences between that and Heroes of games? Which came out first?

I can't even see Band of Heroes on the LnL website although Normandy is up there.

If you have Band of Heroes you should be able to play through the walkthrough just fine....
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Offline Crossroads

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Re: LnL - rules and difficulty
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2017, 01:42:56 PM »
JD have you tried to use the walkthroughs that LnL has published?
http://forums.lnlpublishing.com/resources/lnlt-game-play-walkthrough.123/

It uses a Heroes of Normandy scenario but the rules are exactly the same for Falklands.

There's also this Sequence Guide that lays out how the games plays really well.
http://forums.lnlpublishing.com/resources/lnlt-rule-sequence-guide.101/

Charles Cab did a series of learning videos that are posted on his YouTube channel. I'm in some of these.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_YAQsIPJMi7EVmnQAIsQGOYSeTLsSW-4

The easiest way, I've found, to learn most games is to read the rules once through even if most doesn't make sense and you will not retain it all.
Then get some pieces on the board, and follow the sequence of play and try to do stuff while looking up the rules. Start with just a few units on each side and just try moving then shooting.
Make notes for yourself because everyone learns differently. List out the sequence of play then detail each step inside that.
Learning new games is always a process and takes time, especially on your own.

We could always try to connect with VASSAL and I could run you through the LnL rules if you'd like.

FWIW there's a really nice system there underneath, but as Tinkershuffle wrote earlier it is perhaps unnecessary tough to get in. I watched this bootcamp video for the very basics, then read the rulebook once, then we picked an infantry-only battle, and were pretty much stopped cold. Luckily we had a guy who owned one of the modules, and while having not played it for a while, it helped. So in three hours or so we started to find the rhythm with the battle - infantry only as you recall.

There's a lot of chrome, I like the Heroes for instance, it is a fun concept. But yes, you get down into nitty-gritty. If we would have a tank or three in the battle I am pretty sure we would have been overwhelmed. Compare to our first CoH session where we had a Tanks-Infantry-Indirect fire firefight up to speed after an hour or so. Yet, after the LnL session, at home, a cold brew in hand, I decided it definitely was worth the effort, given the module was a sweet spot of mine (North German plains, US vs Soviets).

So I guess what I am saying if the module really interests you, there's the learning curve, but again, if the context and squad level tactical is your thing you're likely thinking the effort put to conquer the learning curve was worth the effort. Another thing: start small. If you start with a combined-arms firefight you'll likely have your brain fried. At least I would have.
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