And the current Islamic terrorist attack is...

[bayonetbrant]

I'm not looking for a declaration of war in the legal sense of state-on-state, but we need to wake up to the fact that we are at war with zealots who want to undermine and destroy the United States and Western Civilization. Having our own president pussy foot around the matter or steadfastly refuse to utter the words 'radical Islam' does not serve the nation well.

But Donald Trump stated publicly that he would ask for a declaration of war from Congress.  He's the one we're talking about, and the original point I was trying to make:
Against who?
When is it over?
What have you just granted the other guys by doing so?

[Sir Slash]

I thought Obama's closing Gitmo was supposed to cure all this.  ::)

[Boggit]

to make such a general statement like muslim immigration kills! is just plain wrong.

Have you been following recent events in Europe? Forex, there were approximately 1200 reported molestations and/or rapes of German women by Muslim immigrants last New Years Eve alone. In ONE night.

Rape isn't murder, but it's bad enough.

The problem is that we see mass terrorism, and non-muslim abuse constantly coming from a "muslim" background. It identifies "Muslims" as the enemy of western civilisation and values. Let's be accurate, it isn't the majority of Muslims who are doing these things, but a minority, albeit one that is becoming a significant minority. These are the cancer that no sane person can say can be allowed to continue.

Unfortunately, as with real world cancer it spreads to healthy tissue, so there is the dilemma, as with real world cancer that the solution - chemotherapy/radiotherapy - will kill healthy cells as well as the cancerous ones. So the question is how do you address it before it becomes open war between Muslims and non-Muslims, which is something IS and Al Quaeda have been angling at for years. To do nothing but react to attacks might maintain the status quo, but you'll see a continuation of terror attacks because you cannot stop them all.

The other alternative is to stare into the abyss, to risk moving away from the rule of law for the pretext of the 'preservation' of western civilisation. This is the risky bit, as once unleashed it will be hard to recreate a normality. It is to attack back, targeting terrorists, and all who are connected with them. It is about capturing, debriefing, then killing terrorists to inspire terror on them. To hunt down their backers, and kill them. To hunt down their families and those they hold dear, and deport them to places they can do no further harm. By creating a climate of fear and persecution you can fight back on the basis of counter terror to those who would terrorise you.

It could get far more brutal than I suggest depending on the response to it. A policy of extermination of terrorists and their backers, and persecution of all who associate with them might work in the short term. It certainly did with those who opposed the Chinese Emperors of old who pursued rebellion the same way. Of course, it didn't stop rebellion in China, although the even more brutal rule of Ghenghis Khan did. I can see how that approach might offer a solution to Islamic terrorism, but I fear that to go down such a path leads us to a place we will find hard to return from. In killing off, and terrorising the terrorists there will be many, many times more innocent people die and suffer. It is not a good choice to have to make.

I fear that particular cure will not only kill the cancer, but the patient too. And what will have happened to the physician? The terrible truth is with growing numbers of Muslims in traditionally non-Muslim countries, and with attacks on non-Muslims continuing it is increasingly now becoming an issue of long term survival for non-Muslims. A Polish friend of mine recently commented that he thinks the next Holocaust in Europe will be the Muslims, brought on by Muslim terror attacks. I think we are far closer to the abyss of counter-terror than ever before, and I'm saddened by it for all the innocent people who will get hurt. I hope there is another way, whereby the Muslim communities actively work with non-Muslim communities to stamp down hard on the terrorist Jihadis, which may be disliked by Muslim communities but is better than the alternative. Sadly, even though this is being tried, it isn't working very well. :(

[Boggit]

A lot of anger in France towards President Hollande not being more robust...

I've just been sent this from Sauron who received this facebook link going viral in France... I've put a Klingon English translation (as I'm feeling lazy) of the transcript below the original, so you can gauge the strength of feeling this time around. It's a powerful statement rendered in poetic style.

Francois Gierszal CE TEXTE N EST PAS DE MOI MAIS D UNE FEMME SUR FACEBOOK ..TELLEMENT CRIANT DE VERITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
23 h ·

Je ne mettrai ni drapeau, ni bougie, ni de "Je suis ..."
Je ne suis pas Nice, pas Charlie, pas Paris, pas Toulouse, pas Bagdad, Jerusalem ou Tel Aviv, pas Boston ou Tunis,
je ne suis pas plus du 11 septembre que d'un autre jour en particulier ...
Je suis tout ça ..
Je suis en colère ..
Je suis triste ...
Je suis maman, je suis famille
Je suis citoyenne
Et j'ai la nausée ...
Alors M. Le Président ... ?
Après les Discours du tout va mieux,
les marches main dans la main,
les "Moi je" ... ,
les "j'ai décidé ... "
Vous agissez quand ?
Vous attendez quoi ?
Un autre carnage ?
Vous ouvrirez une ( autre et énième ) cellule de Crise,
reprendrez l'antenne en direct
et aurez ce même ton compatissant à vomir
qu'on ne connait que trop ( en même temps depuis Charlie vous avez eu l'occasion de le travailler ! )
Et on finira par un joli sondage des service com. de l'Elysée : 2% ( ou 40 % on s'en fout ) des Français pensent que Hollande a su gérer l'après massacre !!!
Et vous (re-) penserez à vos primaires,
Votre trône, gérer votre coiffeur, votre maîtresse,
votre petit confort et gros acquis ...
votre retraite assurée et votre avenir tracé ...
Vous avez dit ( il fallait oser quand même ... ) être entré dans l'histoire ...
Ah oui ... ça ... C'est sur ...
Dans d'autres circonstances ... ça me ferait mourir de rire !
J'ai juste honte pour vous ... et tellement de colère !
Vous vous êtes entendu hier ?
J'ai décidé - sur proposition du 1er ministre - ( heureusement qu'il a eu cette bonne idée ) ...
J'ai décidé - blablabla
J'ai décidé ... blablabla ...
6 minutes de discours soporifique improbable, déplacé ( la description de l'attaque est juste à vomir ), ... mou et écrit !!!
Comment parler - en lisant ou en récitant - d'arsenal législatif et autres foutaises inutiles !
Ahhh ? vous allez rajouter des militaires devant le Printemps à Haussmann et ailleurs pour ... ? comment la nommez-vous déjà cette opération ?
... Super !!
et sinon ?
trains, bateaux, des contrôles prévus ???
... manif, émeutes, ... quelque chose ?
... les fichés S perdus de vue ?
... Les services de renseignements qui ne se connaissent pas entre eux ?
... le GIGN qui attend qu'on l'autorise ?
... Les autres S qu'on connait ?
... Ceux en devenir ? ...
... un truc de prévu malgré les vacances ?
Vous êtes ( vraiment et comme toujours )à coté de la plaque :
Quand votre pays attend un discours qui sort de vos tripes et de votre coeur, clair, concis, comme un bon coup de poing sur la table, en disant que c'est assez et que vous allez les trouver dans les plus petits recoins de l'hexagone et que vous allez nous en débarrasser ...
Vous nous parlez de frappes ailleurs et de sentinelles ici ... de mesurettes ...
avec le texte et le ton d'un élève de CM2 qui lit sa rédac en essayant d'y mettre le ton !!!
Tout sonne faux ... parce que tout est faux
Vous vous en fichez ... en fait ...
Sinon il n'y aurait déjà pas eu Charlie après Toulouse, Pas le Bataclan,
... et pas hier ...
C'est votre Rôle ce discours ... mais pas votre vie ...
Mettez donc sur votre bureau la photo d'un de ces gamins partis hier
et regardez la jusqu'à la fin de vos jours en vous disant
que vous auriez pu l'éviter ...
On espère juste que demain il n'y aura rien d'autre ...
Mais votre propension à ne rien faire, à préférer les mots mielleux aux actions, m'inspire plus la crainte que la confiance
Comment se fait il que ce matin, il n'y ait pas eu de descente pour aller chercher ces prêcheurs de la mort qui retournent le cerveau de notre jeunesse désoeuvrée ...
Celle-la même que vous laissez grandir dans la haine et en attisant le rejet et les clivages !
On sait qui ...
On sait où ...
Pourquoi restez vous sans rien faire en France ?
... Bombarder les lieux stratégiques de Daesh en Syrie ou Al Kaida ... ailleurs
C'est sur notre sol que des enfants meurent ...
Hier soir, en regardant les étoiles et les jolis feux multicolores,
Ils étaient athées, boudhistes, catholiques, juifs, musulmans, protestants ...
ils avaient l'avenir devant eux
C'était des enfants de France
et vous n'avez pas su les protéger !!!
Assassinés par des kamikazes décérébrés
que vous pensez pouvoir effrayer en leur retirant la nationalité ?
On est en guerre,
Et l'ennemi est partout sur notre territoire !
Alors, en tant que citoyenne Française,
Je vous demande , avec tout le respect que je dois,
si ce n'est pas à l'homme, au moins à la Fonction ...
de passer vraiment à l'action - demain pas dans 6 mois
de nous débarrasser de cette vermine
d'empêcher qu'il y en ait d'autre ...
de faire votre devoir de Chef de la Nation et de Guerre
ou de quitter ce poste !
Et, Il serait dés lors tout à votre honneur d'en profiter pour rendre votre Grand-croix de l'ordre national de la Légion d'honneur, réservée normalement à ceux ayant rendu des «mé

Francois Gierszal THIS TEXT IS NOT ME, BUT A WOMAN SHOUTING ON FACEBOOK ...SO MUCH TRUTH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
23 h ·
I will not hold a flag nor candle, nor be "I am ..."
I'm not Nice, not Charlie, not Paris, not Toulouse, not Baghdad, Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, not Boston or Tunis,
I am no more the 11 September as another day in particular ...
I'm all that ..
I'm mad ..
I'm sad ...
I am a mother, I am family
I am a citizen
And I'm nauseous ...
So Mr. President ...?
After the Speech everything is better,
the labor markets in the hand,
the "Me I '...
the "I decided ..."
When you act?
You waiting for?
Another carnage?
You can open a (new and umpteenth) Crisis Staff,
resume the live aerial
and have that same tone sympathetic to vomit
we know only too (along with Charlie since you have had the opportunity to work!)
And eventually a pretty boring com service. Elysee: 2% (or 40% who cares) of the French think that Holland has managed after the killing !!!
And you (re-) think of your primary,
Your throne, manage your hairdresser, your mistress,
your comfort zone and acquired big ...
your insured retirement and your future path ...
You said (he was daring still ...) be entered into history ...
Oh ... that ... It's about ...
In other circumstances ... it would make me die of laughter!
I'm just ashamed for you ... and so much anger!
You have heard yesterday?
I decided - on the proposal of Minister 1 - (fortunately he got this good idea) ...
I decided - blah
I decided ... blah ...
6 minutes improbable soporific speeches moved (the description of the attack is just sick) ... soft and writing !!!
How to speak - by reading or reciting - legislative arsenal and other useless crap!
Ahhh? you add military before the Printemps Haussmann and elsewhere ...? how do you name already this operation?
... Great !!
and otherwise ?
trains, boats, planned controls ???
... Demonstration, riots ... something?
... Stuck the S-outs?
... The intelligence services who do not know each other?
... The GIGN waiting to be authorized?
... Other S we know?
... Those in the making? ...
... Despite a planned vacation thing?
You are (really and as always) next to the plate:
When your country is expecting a speech that comes out of your guts and your heart, clear, concise, like a good punch on the table, saying that enough is enough and you'll find them in the smallest corners of hexagon and you'll get rid ...
You talk about strikes elsewhere and sentinels of scoops ... here ...
with the text and the tone of a pupil of CM2 that reads its editorial trying to put there the tone !!!
Everything sounds wrong ... because everything is false
You do not care ... in fact ...
Otherwise there would have been no Charlie after Toulouse, Not the Bataclan,
... Not today ...
It is your role this speech ... but not your life ...
So put on your desktop a picture of one of those kids left yesterday
and watch for the rest of your life by saying
you could have avoided ...
We just hope that tomorrow there will be nothing else ...
But your propensity to do nothing, to prefer honeyed words to actions, inspires me fear that trust
How is it that this morning there was no descent to get these preachers of death returning brains of our young, idle underclass ...
It the same as you let grow in hatred and stoking rejection and divisions!
We know that ...
We know where ...
Why you stay without doing anything in France?
... Bombing strategic places Daesh Al Kaida in Syria or elsewhere ...
It's on our soil that children die ...
Last night watching the stars and the pretty colored lights,
They were atheists, Buddhists, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Protestants ...
they had the future ahead of them
It was the children of France
and you have not been able to protect them !!!
Murdered by suicide bombers brainless
you think you can scare by removing their nationality?
We are at war,
And the enemy is everywhere in our territory!
So, as a French citizen,
I ask you, with all due respect,
if not to man, at least the function ...
to really take action - not in six months tomorrow
to get rid of this vermin
prevent there to be other ...
do your duty of Chief of the Nation and War
or leave this post!
And it would die at all to your credit to take advantage of to make your Grand Cross of the National Order of the Legion of honor, normally reserved for those who have rendered "mé

[Boggit]

And another - shorter one, again with a translation below the original. The mood of tolerance following Charlie Hebdo, the Bataclan, the murder of a policeman in front of his children, and the beheading of an employer by a disgruntled Islamist employee seems finished in France for ordinary citizens. I get a huge sense of anger now. I think the political élite will have to wake up now, and be seen to take action.

Flore Dancy
Les mesures à prendre sont connues:

Rétablir la cour de sûreté de l'état
Créer des camps de rétention pour les fichés S
Fermeture de toutes les mosquées salafistes et expulsion de leurs imams
Interdiction des prêches en langue étrangère.
Rétablissement de la peine de mort
Suppression de toute allocation et aides diverses aux familles des criminels.
Supprimer le Droit du sol.
Arrêt immédiat de l'immigration.
Rétablissement du contrôle aux frontières


Un gouvernement qui ne peut pas assurer ses trois missions essentielles à savoir 1) la sécurité des personnes et des biens 2) l'intégrité du territoire 3) la souveraineté nationale doit PARTIR. Et si la République est incapable de produire des gouvernements capables de le faire, elle doit CREVER.

Flora Dancy

The steps to take are known:

Restoring the state security court
Creating detention camps for indexed cards S (Salafists?)
Close all Salafi mosques and expelling their imams
Ban foreign language sermons.
Restoration of the death penalty
Remove any allowance and other assistance to the families of criminals.
Remove the soil right.
immediate halt to immigration.
border control recovery

A government that cannot secure its three main missions namely 1) the safety of persons and property 2) territorial integrity 3) national sovereignty, it must GO. And if the Republic is unable to produce a government capable of doing this, it must DIE.

[jejo68]

Dont worry, the politicians are using harsh languages so all will be fine.

Oh and ofcourse all the usual blanket statements:
We are all french now.
Terrorist will never succeed.
no one could foreseen this happening.
Its just an isolated insident.
It got nothing to do with Islam.

And tomorrow they will forget all about it until next time they have to make the same empty speeches. And yet they dont understand why the far right is growing in Europe.

[Boggit]

Dont worry, the politicians are using harsh languages so all will be fine.

Oh and ofcourse all the usual blanket statements:
We are all french now.
Terrorist will never succeed.
no one could foreseen this happening.
Its just an isolated insident.
It got nothing to do with Islam.

And tomorrow they will forget all about it until next time they have to make the same empty speeches. And yet they dont understand why the far right is growing in Europe.

Exactly. They are not listening...

Although sometimes it is worrying that they are listening to little green men from another planet... This one of Jean-Claude Juncker is worth a laugh, but look at the straight faces of his cronies beside him... http://www.bvoltaire.fr/videos/jean-claude-juncker-a-petits-hommes-verts,265505 

[Boggit]

And yet there is hope from Muslims who want reform, but run the risk of being accused heretics (Bid'aa)... maybe there is a less bloody way to peace?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/please-stop-staying-the-nice-attacks-arent-about-islam/

[Marty Ward]

Have you been following recent events in Europe? Forex, there were approximately 1200 reported molestations and/or rapes of German women by Muslim immigrants last New Years Eve alone. In ONE night.

Rape isn't murder, but it's bad enough.

And how many of those 1200 were actually confirmed as having happened?

[panzerde]

A government that cannot secure its three main missions namely 1) the safety of persons and property 2) territorial integrity 3) national sovereignty, it must GO. And if the Republic is unable to produce a government capable of doing this, it must DIE.

Ah, the famed French political stability. How many republics are they up to now? Four, five?


A bit of rummaging around and they can come up with a Bonaparte and resurrect the empire. Or maybe the Spanish can loan them a spare cousin or something and they can plant a Bourbon on the throne.

[JasonPratt]

In Wurzburg, Germany, axe-wielding Afghan man (17 yo) injures more than twenty people during an attack on a train going through the city; shot dead by police. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36827725

(Edited; sorry, bad link.)

BBC updates that 14 people are being treated for shock, not for external injuries; their update suggests the original 20-21 number includes these.

[Ubercat]

Have you been following recent events in Europe? Forex, there were approximately 1200 reported molestations and/or rapes of German women by Muslim immigrants last New Years Eve alone. In ONE night.

Rape isn't murder, but it's bad enough.

And how many of those 1200 were actually confirmed as having happened?

My bad. Islamic culture isn't misogynistic nor has it any violent trends. It's the religion of peace and anyone who reads the Quran can see that Muhammad was a pretty great guy. I guess I just let myself be lulled by a few racists into thinking there was some kind of problem. The hordes of 20 something young Muslim men that have immigrated to Europe in recent years have the utmost respect for European women and have no problem with the fact that they don't walk around in burlap sacks.

I was also wrong in assuming that the young Moroccan man that I once worked with (in a pizza shop) who despised western women and thought that they were whores who all deserved to be raped was anything more than an anomaly. I foolishly wondered if his attitude was common where he came from. I should have remembered that all cultures are equally valuable and good.

[/sarcasm] How many rapes have to be confirmed* for you to think that there's a problem? 1100? 1000? 800? I'm curious. What figure would impress you?

* What do you mean by "confirmed"? Are you waiting for convictions? From police with someone like Angela Merkel in charge of the country?

[MikeGER]

In Wurzburg, Germany, axe-wielding Afghan man (17 yo) injures more than twenty people during an attack on a train going through the city; shot dead by police. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36827725

(Edited; sorry, bad link.)

BBC updates that 14 people are being treated for shock, not for external injuries; their update suggests the original 20-21 number includes these.

"Allahu Akbar" shouted  ...and a handdrawn IS flag was meanwhile found in his room! 
17 year unguided "refugee kid" from Stan living with a foster family since 2 weeks in lovely Bavaria after had spending some month in a refugee hostel in Würzburg before since March

and the Green Party topdog politician Renate Künast reaction on Twitter at 12:30 am "...why was it not possible to shot the attacker unfit ? ? ? Questions ! "   Go figure! 

btw: the man was shot when he assaulted a SWAT team with his weapons (axe and knife) which was operating nearby in the general area on a different case and got redirected to respond to the terror attack 

the main victims were a tourist family from HongKong   :(

[JasonPratt]

I had seen some reports of the Allahu Akbar shout, but at the time I wondered if they were misreading the BBC article which included a reference to it during prior attacks. I think the BBC article may have been updated since last night; but I was close to passing out so I may have missed the report of the "exclamation" the first time.

[JasonPratt]

Going back to the Orlando Pulse shooting:

"The FBI has found no evidence so far that Omar Mateen, who killed 49 people and wounded more than 53 at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando, chose the popular establishment because of its gay clientele, U.S. law enforcement officials said."

To be more specific, there is evidence, but they've decided the evidence has no weight, being unconfirmable.

This seems unrealistically improbable, that a (relatively) educated man capable of using technology would have randomly chosen a site for attack, and this one JUST HAPPENED to be crawling with people that especially deserve the death penalty in his religion.


On the other hand, blorch at the owner positioning the nightclub as a "sacred space" thanks to the attack.  ::) :P