Author Topic: 2016 Baseball HoF Ballot  (Read 6317 times)

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Offline MetalDog

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Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Ballot
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2015, 10:36:31 PM »
Sorry.  I read 185 as 135.  You're not seriously going to try and compare Jeter to Trammell are you?  The Captain was an All Star AND World Series MVP to go along with a five time World Champion and A.L. Rookie of the year.  And, something Trammell will never be able to say, a first ballot Hall of Famer :P  He may even be the first unanimous selection!
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Offline Bison

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Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Ballot
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2015, 10:39:41 PM »
Sorry.  I read 185 as 135.  You're not seriously going to try and compare Jeter to Trammell are you?  The Captain was an All Star AND World Series MVP to go along with a five time World Champion and A.L. Rookie of the year.  And, something Trammell will never be able to say, a first ballot Hall of Famer :P

Trammel was the rookie of the year.  6 time all star.  4 time gold glove winner (He competed against Yount, Ripken, Fernandez).  MVP of the World Series and put up better or as good of numbers as Ozzy Smith other than SB.  Trammel is consistently ranked in the top 15 or higher of all shortstops to ever play the game.  Horrible oversight by a bunch of pencil pushers.

Offline MetalDog

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Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Ballot
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2015, 10:47:00 PM »
You better alert MLB.com to their mistake then.  I don't see Trammell's RotY Award up there.  Yount didn't play his entire career at SS.  So if that disqualifies Ripken, it gets Yount, too.  Strictly by the numbers, I would certainly equate Trammell to Fernandez.  He's not a Hall of Famer either.
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Offline Bison

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Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Ballot
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2015, 05:59:16 AM »
Sorry it was Lou Whitaker who won the RoY.  Another freaking oversight for the Hall.  Fernadez batting numbers are very similar to Ozzie Smith, who did not have the same type of numbers as Trammel.  I'm starting to believe you didn't follow any baseball in the 80s outside of the AL East.

Offline Bison

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Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Ballot
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2015, 06:19:26 AM »
I rest my case with this fine stat fact.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_SS.shtml

Oh and Edgar Martinez doesn't make the cut.  :)

Offline MetalDog

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Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Ballot
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2015, 07:14:47 AM »
There's two guys who are Trammell's direct contemporaries on that list, Yount, who was disqualified because he didn't play his whole career at short and Ozzie Smith, who is higher on the list than Trammell.  There are two guys in front of Trammell that are not in the Hall, Alex Rodriguez, who is still playing and won't make it due to steroids, and Bill Dahlen, who played from 1891 to 1911.  A direct comparison of the stats shows Dahlen had more games (by 800+), more Runs (by 350+), more hits, triples and RBI and 300+ more Stolen Bases, almost every counting stat imaginable.  And he's still not in the Hall.

Tony Fernandez is the top Alan Trammell is the bottom.

17 Yrs   Games 2158   Plate Appearances 8793   At Bats 7911   Runs 1057  Hits 2276  Doubles 414    Triples 92  Home Runs 94 RBI 844    Stolen Bases 246   Caught Stealing 138     Walks 690   Strikeouts 784    Batting Average .288   On Base % .347   Slugging % .399   OPS .746    OPS+ 101   Total Bases 3156   GIDP 161    HBP 64   Sacrifice Hits 67   Sac Fly 61   Intentional Walks 48   

20 Yrs   2293   9376   8288   1231   2365   412   55   185   1003   236   109   850   874   .285   .352   .415   .767   110   3442   156   37   124   76   48

Those are almost identical stats in so many places.  And yet, Fernandez is 25 spots down that WAR list you used as proof.  Your case is resting on shaky ground.  And one more thing, the Tigers were in the AL East the whole time I was watching Trammell ;)
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Offline MetalDog

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Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Ballot
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2015, 07:24:53 AM »
Despite your terrible taste in shortstops, you are my friend.  And I will vote for Trammell if you'd like and tell you that your argument swayed me.
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Offline Bison

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Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Ballot
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2015, 07:40:48 AM »
Ironically the JAWS is the baseline that your general argument for induction is based on, which trammel actually scores higher than Jeter on.  :P.   I forgive your typical Yankee fan ignorance of great players who play west of the Hudson River.  😀

Offline MetalDog

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Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Ballot
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2015, 07:54:32 AM »
I didn't introduce the metric, you did.  So I based my argument on the stats YOU provided.  And I saw Jeter one spot lower than Trammell.  Looks like someone has a bias.  And it ain't me ;)
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Offline Marty Ward

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Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Ballot
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2015, 09:02:48 AM »
My opinion is hitting is hitting so the position they play is irrelevant for those stats. A 3B doesn't hit better or worse than an OF simply due to the position.

Defense is a lot harder to judge. It depends on the era (there are far more measurements these days than in the past), the 'brand' of ball the team played (some were of the old school pitching and defense wins pennants while others are of the 3 run HR school), who else played the position during their time (for Gold Gloves) and who else played in any position during their time (for MVP).
I think Trammel was a good player. He should at least be considered for the HOF. I don't think there is any comparison between him and Jeter though, Jeter was one of the best PLAYERS of all time, not just SS.
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Offline MetalDog

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Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Ballot
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2015, 09:06:24 AM »
My opinion is hitting is hitting so the position they play is irrelevant for those stats. A 3B doesn't hit better or worse than an OF simply due to the position.

I don't think that's true.  The type of guy that plays the position certainly has to do with how he hits.  Ozzie Smith and Jim Rice weren't the same body type.  And Oz was a good glove/average hitter while Rice was a masher who didn't embarrass himself in the outfield.  It's only with the advent of guys like A-Rod and Ripken that we accept shortstops as being anything more than a little guy with a glove that hits around the Mendoza Line.
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Offline bayonetbrant

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Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Ballot
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2015, 09:14:30 AM »
I rest my case with this fine stat fact.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_SS.shtml

Oh and Edgar Martinez doesn't make the cut.  :)

you know Edgar is in the 3B category, not SS, right?
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Offline Marty Ward

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Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Ballot
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2015, 09:25:32 AM »

I don't think that's true.  The type of guy that plays the position certainly has to do with how he hits.  Ozzie Smith and Jim Rice weren't the same body type.  And Oz was a good glove/average hitter while Rice was a masher who didn't embarrass himself in the outfield.  It's only with the advent of guys like A-Rod and Ripken that we accept shortstops as being anything more than a little guy with a glove that hits around the Mendoza Line.

The type of hitter that is 'typical' is thought to be different between positions. Corner position are 'supposed' to be the power hitters while the middle infielders and the center fielder are fast and light hitting and good defense but these are not anything more than stereotypes. There are hundreds of examples of good hitters not fitting the mold. So if you can hit, it doesn't matter if you played 1 position all of your career or 3 or 4 positions. You can just compare the stats. If you were a light hitting SS in the 60's then you better bring that defense or speed to the table if you want to get into the Hall. That is all I'm saying.
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Offline Bison

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Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Ballot
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2015, 10:10:51 AM »
I'm pretty sure that you aren't tracking on what jaws measures md.  I'm not arguing trammel vs Jeter.  I'm arguing trammel vs all other hof ss.  The jaws is an offensive statistic.  It in short ranks trammel higher than than all but 10 ss based on best 7 war score yeas vs the same stat areas from all baseball eras.  It's broken don by position so even players like Ripken who played 12 years ss and 8 years 3r base are accounted for in the metric.  Just using offensive and fielding% stats he is right there with Ozzie smith who is in the hof and the other 20 ss in the hof. 

Jeter gets the benefit of playing a. For the Yankees and b. On some very good teams.  The World Series is a team achievement not an individual stat. 

Offline MetalDog

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Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Ballot
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2015, 10:25:41 AM »
I get what JAWS is for.  The WAR metric he uses is to show how much better the player is than the average at that position.  The table you presented uses the best 7 year period of a players career.  The player in front of Trammell is not in the Hall of Fame and has comparable career stats as well as 7 year snapshot, hence, his place on the list.  I am using that to base my denial of Trammell's inclusion into the Hall.  That there are similar hitters, Ozzie Smith for instance, that are in the Hall, makes your argument.  If we both had votes, and you voted for Trammell and I didn't, I would chide you for your ignoring Bill Dahlen and you, in return, would present me Ozzie.  And then give me shit for being a Yankee fan.  ;)

And they don't elect players into the Hall based on 7 year snapshots of their careers :P
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