Combat Mission Shock Force Tactical Advice pls...

[JudgeDredd]

After reading Team Yankee on holiday, I've started a new campaign on Combat Mission Shock Force.

The particular campaign I've started is the NATO Dutch Campaign...though for "general tactics", I don't think the campaign matters really.

So here's the situation. I've got to 4 recon vehicles and I have 20 minutes before the main force arrives. I have a road going South with an old fort half way down the road and another fort at the end.

I have to use my recon units to recon the first fort, bring in the main force and whilst they're taking care of the old fort, I've to go and recon the main fort.

However - every single time I move my units, they seem to get hit. I've tried hunting, using fast to get behind a building and deploy the recon troops...but nothing works. I just end up losing 4 Fenneks.

So here's my question...HTF do you recon in this game. If I sit the units back with enough height to fully view the terrain, they pick out one or two things. Once those are taken care of, I move again and this time I get stung with a unit that's hiding in the grass.

What do I have to do to see units? How exactly do you effectively recon? I almost always get hit before I see where it's come from...even if I've sat there surveying the battlefield for 10-15 minutes - as soon as I move, there's an unseen unit.

How do you recon properly in this game? 'cos I'm lost

[undercovergeek]

i think smoke is your friend here JD, like you did to me on the big rush

[JudgeDredd]

Well if I've got a battery for smoke and I wanted to move troops forward then I would definitely think about using smoke - but my query is more about how you use scouts.

As you don't know where enemy units are, I was hoping that I could "pop" a unit (either in their Fenneks or out) over a hill - kind of hull down - to survey the area and them be able to spot some enemy. Currently, the only way I can find enemy units is by moving my scouts forward - and then it's all over for them.

So - what use are scouts if they don't seem to be scouting? Should you give them an arc? Would that help them to identify hidden units? I really don't know what to do with them because regardless what I try - the only way they find most enemy units is by exposing themselves. (RUDE!)

Currently There's a hill with a two story building on it. I had move a scout unit up there and put the scouts on the roof. I left them there for about 4 or 5 minutes and as they hadn't spotted anything else, I rushed one of the Fenneks to the side of the a building lower in the "valley" to put the spotters in a building and they were taken out by an AT team.

Funny thing was - where the enemy unit was, not only would I have expected my scouts (if they are scouts at all!) to see that AT team, but I would definitely have thought with the AT team firing, that they would then become apparent.

So - from my perspective - they are pretty useless and the only way to find enemy units seems to be exposing yourself to the enemy.

Now - I am totally willing to be told the right way to use them - but my argument is - if I move them, they die - so how do they scout at all??

[GDS_Starfury]

what about just using the recon troops as dismounts and moving forward on foot.

[JudgeDredd]

The reason I left them in the vehicles was two fold...

1. They had access to the heavy weapon on the Fennek if they did spot anything (without them in there, the weapon was useless as there was only the driver)
2. I presumed, being Recon, they would have better optical ability within the vehicle

But I'm no expert on the Fennek or Recon (as it happens - though you may have guessed).

[Cyrano]

I am far from the expert here, but I have learned through a combination of hard experience and YouTube videos that cruising around in the thin skins anywhere near the enemy leads to BluFor corpses.  The other thing that I've deduced...and it shouldn't have proven as hard as it did...is that you have much more time in most CM scenarios than you think.  It was hard at first but I got better at dismounting, skulking, and, more important, waiting to spot the bad guys down range.  I'm still horribly impatient at times and it uniformly gets me killed.  Not saying this is your particular problem, but,a s far as Recon was concerned, it certainly was mine...

[JasonPratt]

It's possible the vehicle design is broken, or that the vehicle just sucks at scouting per se. What are real-life tactics with this particular vehicle? Is it meant more as a mobile support unit for its dismounted troops, than as a scouting platform for mounted troops?

I assume from your description that there is only one 'squad' and a driver in the vehicle, so that the vehicle becomes useless for supporting scouts when the squad is dismounted to scout: I own SF but have never installed it. However, if it only comes with one scout unit and the driver, and assuming it's not meant as a scouting platform, I'd recommend the following two solutions.

1.) Bring more scout infantry. I don't know how many squads can ride in it, but it may be intended to carry several yet only come with one in the game. This sounds like a fixed scenario so if that isn't feasible...

1.2.) ...concentrate scouting assets. Surge any footscouts the game gives you and hold the vehicles back a little for support with their alternate scouting crew inside to man the guns. If the mission doesn't give you any footscouts...

1.3.) ...try denuding half the vehicles of their scouts, and keep the driver-only vehicles in the rear while sending the footmen forward supported by the crewed vehicles. This is admittedly a gamey solution.


2.) Another possibly gamey solution would be to try splitting the scouting squad attached to the vehicle, and sending one detachment ahead while leaving one behind to man the guns in support. Or, for all I know, that's the standard field tactic for this unit after all. (Or for all I know Shock Force doesn't allow the player to split squads, although I know other CM games do.)

[JasonPratt]

Briefly poking around on the internet suggests the Fennik, in scouting kit, is meant to operate like a Kiowa chopper with Longbow optics: it isn't meant to spot infantry in grass or in a fort, it's meant to mask behind a hill and laser tanks which can then be attacked from cover (possibly by other Fenniks.)

[bboyer66]

One of the true mysteries of the world is how spotting works in Combat Mission.  You just never know. Sometimes you can spot the enemy from across the map, other times you cant see the enemy right in front of you.  Your best bet is to always assume you are being observed and that you wont see the enemy till he fires at you from 5 meters away :)

[RyanE]

One of the true mysteries of the world is how spotting works in Combat Mission.  You just never know. Sometimes you can spot the enemy from across the map, other times you cant see the enemy right in front of you.  Your best bet is to always assume you are being observed and that you wont see the enemy till he fires at you from 5 meters away :)

Heh...sounds a lot like real life.

My opinion on recon vehicles in CMSF...those are really strategic recon units.  Meant to find large concentrations of troops and support units with advanced optics and electronic surveillance.  They are not the best tactical scouts.  Guys with binos and wide field-of-view thermals are best at getting at infantry in built up areas.

Also check the soft settings of units.  It impacts spotting units and spotted units.

[Apocalypse 31]

JD,

You're doing it right!

The purpose of recon forces is to gain & maintain contact with the enemy. You've already done that, so you're off to a good start and at least now you know a) what your probable line of contact is 2) where you need to apply firepower with your main element.

Now that you've located the enemy start looking for either a bypass or a hole in their lines that you can exploit.

It is not the job of recon troopers to close with and destroy the enemy (that's what grunts are for) but in the meantime you should be employing indirect fires to neutralize or destroy enemy counter recon or high payoff targets.

As you employ recon units, ask yourself these questions...
1) where is the enemy?
2) how can we get around them?
3) where is their weakest link?

Once you answer those questions, you can develop an effective plan for your main body.

[MengJiao]

After reading Team Yankee on holiday, I've started a new campaign on Combat Mission Shock Force.

The particular campaign I've started is the NATO Dutch Campaign...though for "general tactics", I don't think the campaign matters really.

So here's the situation. I've got to 4 recon vehicles and I have 20 minutes before the main force arrives. I have a road going South with an old fort half way down the road and another fort at the end.

I have to use my recon units to recon the first fort, bring in the main force and whilst they're taking care of the old fort, I've to go and recon the main fort.

However - every single time I move my units, they seem to get hit. I've tried hunting, using fast to get behind a building and deploy the recon troops...but nothing works. I just end up losing 4 Fenneks.

So here's my question...HTF do you recon in this game. If I sit the units back with enough height to fully view the terrain, they pick out one or two things. Once those are taken care of, I move again and this time I get stung with a unit that's hiding in the grass.

What do I have to do to see units? How exactly do you effectively recon? I almost always get hit before I see where it's come from...even if I've sat there surveying the battlefield for 10-15 minutes - as soon as I move, there's an unseen unit.

How do you recon properly in this game? 'cos I'm lost

  Are you playing WEGO?  One thing I learned in Shock Force was to play real time with pauses and do some reversing after spotting anything suspicious. Of course I haven't played Shock force in 7 years, BUT I've also never played WEGO again, so I suspect something about WEGO could help with the scouting thing.  Also I may be confusing the virtues of a quick reverse with endless ARMA1-3 sessions where such things do work.

[JudgeDredd]

Thanks for the feedback....I'll try and respond as best as I can recall

Cyrano - thanks. I kind of guessed what was the point of the vehicles if they have to get out - and I guessed they'd have all the kit on the vehicles as they were recon. I would say perhaps there is credit in what you say - about getting out and skulking around...but don't forget I said I had taken a unit out the Fennek and put them on top of a building...a building which had a great amount of view across the battlefield...they were on the roof of a building AND the building was on a hill

Jason
1.1. It's a campaign so I've got what I've got...four Fenneks with 4 drivers and 2x4 man recon squads, split across the Fenneks (2 in each)
1.2. I have no extra recon units - just the 2 recon squads
1.3. This is a possible solution

2. There's only 2x4 man recon squads and they are already split into 2 man units and in the Fenneks - so further splitting is not an option

I get you on the Fennek description and perhaps that's it. Perhaps I have to dismount (though as I said above to Cyrano - I already did that and spotted nothing)

RyanE - thanks - but as mentioned, I had already dropped a unit on a hill on the roof of a building and they spotted nothing more than they had done in the Fenneks (an ATGM unit and a MG bunker - and those were spotted in the Fenneks)

Apocolypse31 - I take comfort in the fact I'm doing it right - however - I would not have thought a recon units job is to detect the enemy by attracting (deadly) fire. Like I said - the Fenneks are taken out immediately. That's all well and good, but it dropped my recon level to half in minutes

MengJiao - I am a convert to WEGO. I don't think I could go back to RT.


So - does anyone use their recon units with greater success? If so - how do you do it? Bear in mind I don't have any troops to walk ahead and attract fire. The first 20 minutes of this mission is to recon with the 4 Fenneks and 2 Recon squads split across the mobile units.

[Cyrano]

I'm certain I've played this mission...must go home and refresh myself as to what in blazes it is that I did...

[Apocalypse 31]

Apocolypse31 - I take comfort in the fact I'm doing it right - however - I would not have thought a recon units job is to detect the enemy by attracting (deadly) fire. Like I said - the Fenneks are taken out immediately. That's all well and good, but it dropped my recon level to half in minutes

Recon by death is still recon, unfortunately.   :P

I despise some of the CM level-designs. Sometimes I feel that the player doesn't get enough breathing room to develop a decent plan. I noticed this mostly in the CMBS scenarios; in some instances your forces are immediately in contact. 

the Fenneks are taken out immediately. That's all well and good, but it dropped my recon level to half in minutes

I've never preferred mounted recon for offensive operations. Need to get dismounts on the ground to do the leg work. Its tedious, but will pay off more. I have rarely seen a CM scenario large enough for mounted recon - which is traditionally done more as a Rapid/Hasty method to clear large areas in a hurry. In your case, its more stealthy/deliberate.

Mounted versus Dismounted - you need to assess the threat weapons and their associated ranges. A T-72 can fire upwards of 3k range, and a 14.5mm can fire 2k. Most CM maps are too small to give you enough room to employ mounted recon assets.