Games with Confederate flag being removed from Apple Store

[Grim.Reaper]

If not appropriate for this forum, mods feel free to move or delete....saw this at a couple of different places where Apple is removing games with the confederate flag, such as Ultimate Gettysburg.  I don't really have an opinion on it right now, but I guess it is like where the Swastika flags were banned in certain countries too.  I am wondering if this will extend to other game distributors such as Steam and Matrix.

http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-bans-confederate-flag-apps-2015-6

[bayonetbrant]

It's been discussed here, among a variety of socio-political issues, in this thread here
http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=14001.0

that said, if you want to focus just on the software store policy and avoid the other sociological discussion, we'll leave this thread open for now.

[magnus]

I feel the flag issue is much like the swastika issue, like you.

Being a history nut, I want them included in games.

Although I can see the other side of the issue with them.

Their are gamers that refuse to play the Germans in WWII, no matter which way they are represented.

I can understand that point as well.

[Grim.Reaper]

I absolutely see both sides of it...I find it interesting that Apple said this is the clause it violated....

"We have removed apps from the App Store that use the Confederate flag in offensive or mean-spirited ways, which is in violation of our guidelines,"

For the civil war games removed, they all seemed to be historical so not sure how they fit in that clause.....Apple still kept books and other things available for purchase that has the flag, plus if I had to bet they are still offering Civil War related movies through iTunes....seems to be a fine line.

[sandman2575]

I'd wager that I'm pretty far to the left of most folks around here, and this move on Apple's part strikes me as arrant stupidity.

Context matters. Context makes all the difference.

It is the case, for example, that although Third Reich symbolism is banned in Germany, it is permitted in some contexts, for example, a book cover or museum exhibit.

I don't see how it's remotely arguable that the Confederate Flag should *not* be allowed on a game depicting the Civil War.  And I say that as someone fully in favor of removing the flag from the South Carolina statehouse.  The contexts, in my opinion, are in no way equivalent.

[bayonetbrant]

2 points here

1.  There are still things like Ken Burns' documentary The Civil War that are for sale in the iTunes store

2.  The reason the Nazi flag is not used in a lot of other games is that there are nations where it is outlawed.  While the Confederate flag may come under significant and intense public scrutiny and commercial boycott in the US, it will never be outlawed as any such legal attempt will miserably fail a first amendment challenge and never get out of the gate.

[Boggit]

I absolutely see both sides of it...I find it interesting that Apple said this is the clause it violated....

"We have removed apps from the App Store that use the Confederate flag in offensive or mean-spirited ways, which is in violation of our guidelines,"

For the civil war games removed, they all seemed to be historical so not sure how they fit in that clause.....Apple still kept books and other things available for purchase that has the flag, plus if I had to bet they are still offering Civil War related movies through iTunes....seems to be a fine line.

You have to ask really what the context is? Games "simulating" history is not the same as promoting political ideals. I noticed on another thread that Amazon has followed the same policy, and yet look what they are happy to promote on sale:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mein-Kampf-Adolf-Hitler/dp/817224164X

Does it all not reek of politically correct hypocrisy?

Personally, I think that these companies should not act as censors. I don't even have a problem with them selling Mein Kampf, if anybody wants it. I don't agree with Nazism, but if we lose free expression we go down, slowly but surely into the '1984' police state, which is a state of affairs that the Nazi's would have liked! Why is it that the image of the Confederate flag is considered more heinous than the murderous Nazi and Soviet regimes to these companies?

Far better to have stuff we don't like out there and challenge, or ridicule it, than drive it underground where there is no debate, and no honest criticism.

See also http://www.infowars.com/amazon-staff-government-ordered-us-not-to-sell-confederate-flag/
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/06/24/amazon-bans-confederate-flags-still-sells-nazi-merchandise/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregoryferenstein/2015/06/25/as-apple-purges-the-confederate-flag-the-nazi-swastika-stands/
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/national-anthems-soviet-union/id753173379
http://www.amazon.com/USSR-Air-5th-MSD-Professional/dp/B00JOTISHK  (With best wishes to all from Apple who were sent to the Gulags, or murdered by this 'wholesome' regime!)

[Staggerwing]

I'd wager that I'm pretty far to the left of most folks around here, and this move on Apple's part strikes me as arrant stupidity.

Context matters. Context makes all the difference.

It is the case, for example, that although Third Reich symbolism is banned in Germany, it is permitted in some contexts, for example, a book cover or museum exhibit.

I don't see how it's remotely arguable that the Confederate Flag should *not* be allowed on a game depicting the Civil War.  And I say that as someone fully in favor of removing the flag from the South Carolina statehouse.  The contexts, in my opinion, are in no way equivalent.

There are a couple of topics that I personally fall a bit to the left of center on as well. Still..

I just took up L&L on their offer of the free Lee@Gettysburg game. in the 'comments' section I put:

"I may choose to play the Northern side but I know the difference between racism and history.

Thank you."

[bayonetbrant]

Boggit - careful on your sourcing
I wouldn't believe anything that Infowars published.  They're so far out in whacko-land it's embarrassing.  Look up their Jade Helm insanity if you're curious.

[Boggit]

Boggit - careful on your sourcing
I wouldn't believe anything that Infowars published.  They're so far out in whacko-land it's embarrassing.  Look up their Jade Helm insanity if you're curious.

Thanks for the warning. I might check that Jade Helm thing out for a laugh.

They're not a source I have read before. I was looking to see just how prevalent the policy was, and they came up along with a lot of other hits confirming the anomalies in the Confederate image issue.

[Boggit]

Boggit - careful on your sourcing
I wouldn't believe anything that Infowars published.  They're so far out in whacko-land it's embarrassing.  Look up their Jade Helm insanity if you're curious.

LOL! Thanks for the hint. Talk about conspiracy theorists!
http://www.infowars.com/caught-in-a-lie-jade-helm-15/

[Swatter]

Good comments so far.

Political correctness is unavoidable, but unfortunate. Its just a hot-button issue right now and there will be overreaction. I personally understand the argument that the confederate battle flag is not a racist symbol. On the other hand, a nuanced argument about why the battle flag isn't racist won't get any real traction because taking a pro-flag stance automatically is going to make the arguer a potential racist. Its getting to where any white person in America is default a racist, leading to one-upmanship to prove they aren't racist, hence this thread.

[Swatter]

Speaking of conspiracy theories, there are some really nutty ones out there. I remember googling some alien occupation/infiltration conspiracy theories awhile back. These were not just people joking around. People with mental illness can make web pages too.

[SirAndrewD]

Speaking of conspiracy theories, there are some really nutty ones out there. I remember googling some alien occupation/infiltration conspiracy theories awhile back. These were not just people joking around. People with mental illness can make web pages too.

Ghosts. Commie ghosts what don't know they're dead. Hoping to steal our rockets so they can fly up and paint the moon pink and draw a Lenin face on it. I seen one of them disappear and reappear before my very eyes. Although being a scientist, I have to admit I might've just blinked for longer than usual, what with the shock of seeing a commie ghost and so forth

[glen55]

I'd wager that I'm pretty far to the left of most folks around here, and this move on Apple's part strikes me as arrant stupidity.

Context matters. Context makes all the difference.

It is the case, for example, that although Third Reich symbolism is banned in Germany, it is permitted in some contexts, for example, a book cover or museum exhibit.

I don't see how it's remotely arguable that the Confederate Flag should *not* be allowed on a game depicting the Civil War.  And I say that as someone fully in favor of removing the flag from the South Carolina statehouse.  The contexts, in my opinion, are in no way equivalent.

This is pretty much me.  I'm 60 years old and from Alabama and I was embarrassed that we had the Confederate flag on our statehouse when I was 8.  It's way past high time to remove it from anything government-related.

But this is rampant stupidity.  UGG in no way, shape or form promotes slavery or "We ain't forgot" or any of that stuff. Apple's move is more 1984 than it is standing up for racial equality - and yes, I'm fully aware of the theoretical distinction between government action restricting speech and private action restricting speech, but entities like Apple and Amazon are so big that the distinction becomes rather blurred in practicality.  I don't want Tim Cook restricting speech - even if he is a good Alabama boy - any more than I want Obama or Ted Cruz restricting it.