Author Topic: CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread  (Read 70436 times)

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Offline Jarhead0331

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CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread
« on: January 31, 2015, 08:30:41 AM »
Just fired up my first battle.  I played as the Russians tasked with attacking a town held by a Ukranian mech unit.

I totally got my ass handed to me.

The main problems I need to address are laziness and impatience. I'm careless with my troops and I fail to utilize all of their assets when necessary. I habitually ignore smoke when moving across open ground, almost never suppress a location prior to advancing troops, and almost never prioritize getting spotters to high ground where they can call in accurate support.  Additionally, I typically try to get units to their targeted locations as quickly as possible, rather than as cautiously as possible.  I need to keep my finger off of the quick and fast advance comments and use hunt and slow more often.

Failing to do the above will lead to catastrophic failure with gruesome results.

I had the same issue in Shockforce for awhile, but I eventually played out the Marine campaign professionally and the results were dramatically improved.   
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Offline Con

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Re: CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2015, 09:16:41 AM »
I think I played the same scenario except as the Ukranians. The Russians got into the town by attacking simultaneously from different directions and lots of combined arms maneuvering. Lines of site are critical and lethal both ways. Definitely a different dynamic from WWII

Con


Offline Jarhead0331

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Re: CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2015, 09:41:05 AM »
I think I played the same scenario except as the Ukranians. The Russians got into the town by attacking simultaneously from different directions and lots of combined arms maneuvering. Lines of site are critical and lethal both ways. Definitely a different dynamic from WWII

Con

The Ukrainians hold the high ground in that scenario and they have an AGS-17 in a good overwatch position. The Ukrainians also have heavier armor and access to a MBT. I'll try to organize my forces better so that the initial push is more coordinated.  However, for an attack of this nature, the Russians are definitely at a great disadvantage. Heck, it looks like the Russians only outnumber the Ukrainians 2 to 1, which isn't much of a numerical advantage when you're attacking in an urban environment. 
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Offline Boggit

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Re: CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2015, 09:51:15 AM »
Just fired up my first battle.  I played as the Russians tasked with attacking a town held by a Ukranian mech unit.

I totally got my ass handed to me.

The main problems I need to address are laziness and impatience. I'm careless with my troops and I fail to utilize all of their assets when necessary. I habitually ignore smoke when moving across open ground, almost never suppress a location prior to advancing troops, and almost never prioritize getting spotters to high ground where they can call in accurate support.  Additionally, I typically try to get units to their targeted locations as quickly as possible, rather than as cautiously as possible.  I need to keep my finger off of the quick and fast advance comments and use hunt and slow more often.

Failing to do the above will lead to catastrophic failure with gruesome results.

I had the same issue in Shockforce for awhile, but I eventually played out the Marine campaign professionally and the results were dramatically improved.
You may be doing this already, so I apologise in advance if I'm teaching you to suck eggs... but using small scout teams through cover as a screen is very helpful to pinpoint enemy positions for relatively little risk. Once you have ID'd an enemy position pull them back - they are not there to engage, and then try to scope out the supporting positions. Once you have an idea of the enemy positions you can formulate your plan to advance to engage - preferably through a covered route to avoid casualties. Hope that helps to reduce your losses. :)
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Offline JudgeDredd

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Re: CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2015, 10:08:36 AM »
Just had a very odd thing occur. I loaded my saved game, issued orders and then set it to play the minute. It then took about 10 minutes for the "blue bar" to progress!! Then when the orders did start, half my units weren't moving!!

My T-90's moved for the first part of their move, then just sat there even though they both had a 90 degree turn and a continue (fast move). My BMP didn't move towards the troops to be loaded and the troops didn't move towards the BMPs!

Very bizarre.
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Offline Great Ajax

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Re: CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2015, 10:25:48 AM »
Had a fascinating quick battle against the AI.  I had randomized almost everything with large battle and chose a mix of Russian and Ukrainian forces.  I ran with the Russians and was given two tank companies of T-90 (one strong company with three full platoons and one short company with two platoons).  Also attached were a platoon of BMP-3 Motorized Infantry and a platoon of RPG Anti-Tank teams in MTLBs.  I think the Ukrainians had roughly two companies of tanks and two companies of motorized rifle.

The battle had one minor objective on either side of the map with a small village in the middle.  Heavy forests dominated the approaches to the town but the area around the town afforded clear fields of fire to the opposite side.

I ran the short tank company and the AT Platoon through the heavy woods and straight towards the village in the center.  The tank company lined up along the forest edge and overwatched the village while the AT platoon hauled ass towards the village.  No Ukrainians in site.  My full company with motorized rifle swung out towards my minor objective and then advanced on the middle village.  AT platoon dismounted and scattered by occupying numerous buildings to set up an anti-tank strongpoint.  Still no sight of the Ukrainians and so the heavy tank company advanced towards the village and also took up positions in the forest tree line while one tank platoon moved directly into the village and the motorized rifle platoon dismounted and occupied the village objective by joining the AT platoon.  By the time the Ukrainians arrived, I had the two dismount platoons firmly in control of the village objective with T-90 platoons in the forest line in overwatch.  The result was a massacre and the Ukrainians never even made it to the village and were destroyed in the forest on the far side.

Final result was a Russian Massive Victory at a loss of two tanks (Short Tank Company Commander and one of his platoon leaders) and five soldiers KIA.  Ukrainian losses were 18 tanks and 12 AFVs and 101 men KIA. 

Had a complete blast.  One of the Ukrainian Tank Company Commanders accounted for both of my tank losses.

Trey

Offline JudgeDredd

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Re: CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2015, 10:51:59 AM »
Had a fascinating quick battle against the AI.  I had randomized almost everything with large battle and chose a mix of Russian and Ukrainian forces.  I ran with the Russians and was given two tank companies of T-90 (one strong company with three full platoons and one short company with two platoons).  Also attached were a platoon of BMP-3 Motorized Infantry and a platoon of RPG Anti-Tank teams in MTLBs.  I think the Ukrainians had roughly two companies of tanks and two companies of motorized rifle.

The battle had one minor objective on either side of the map with a small village in the middle.  Heavy forests dominated the approaches to the town but the area around the town afforded clear fields of fire to the opposite side.

I ran the short tank company and the AT Platoon through the heavy woods and straight towards the village in the center.  The tank company lined up along the forest edge and overwatched the village while the AT platoon hauled ass towards the village.  No Ukrainians in site.  My full company with motorized rifle swung out towards my minor objective and then advanced on the middle village.  AT platoon dismounted and scattered by occupying numerous buildings to set up an anti-tank strongpoint.  Still no sight of the Ukrainians and so the heavy tank company advanced towards the village and also took up positions in the forest tree line while one tank platoon moved directly into the village and the motorized rifle platoon dismounted and occupied the village objective by joining the AT platoon.  By the time the Ukrainians arrived, I had the two dismount platoons firmly in control of the village objective with T-90 platoons in the forest line in overwatch.  The result was a massacre and the Ukrainians never even made it to the village and were destroyed in the forest on the far side.

Final result was a Russian Massive Victory at a loss of two tanks (Short Tank Company Commander and one of his platoon leaders) and five soldiers KIA.  Ukrainian losses were 18 tanks and 12 AFVs and 101 men KIA. 

Had a complete blast.  One of the Ukrainian Tank Company Commanders accounted for both of my tank losses.

Trey
WHAT?  :o
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Offline Nefaro

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Re: CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2015, 12:52:21 PM »
Had a fascinating quick battle against the AI.  I had randomized almost everything with large battle and chose a mix of Russian and Ukrainian forces.  I ran with the Russians and was given two tank companies of T-90 (one strong company with three full platoons and one short company with two platoons).  Also attached were a platoon of BMP-3 Motorized Infantry and a platoon of RPG Anti-Tank teams in MTLBs.  I think the Ukrainians had roughly two companies of tanks and two companies of motorized rifle.

The battle had one minor objective on either side of the map with a small village in the middle.  Heavy forests dominated the approaches to the town but the area around the town afforded clear fields of fire to the opposite side.

I ran the short tank company and the AT Platoon through the heavy woods and straight towards the village in the center.  The tank company lined up along the forest edge and overwatched the village while the AT platoon hauled ass towards the village.  No Ukrainians in site.  My full company with motorized rifle swung out towards my minor objective and then advanced on the middle village.  AT platoon dismounted and scattered by occupying numerous buildings to set up an anti-tank strongpoint.  Still no sight of the Ukrainians and so the heavy tank company advanced towards the village and also took up positions in the forest tree line while one tank platoon moved directly into the village and the motorized rifle platoon dismounted and occupied the village objective by joining the AT platoon.  By the time the Ukrainians arrived, I had the two dismount platoons firmly in control of the village objective with T-90 platoons in the forest line in overwatch.  The result was a massacre and the Ukrainians never even made it to the village and were destroyed in the forest on the far side.

Final result was a Russian Massive Victory at a loss of two tanks (Short Tank Company Commander and one of his platoon leaders) and five soldiers KIA.  Ukrainian losses were 18 tanks and 12 AFVs and 101 men KIA. 

Had a complete blast.  One of the Ukrainian Tank Company Commanders accounted for both of my tank losses.

Trey
WHAT?  :o

Sounds like the AI jacked around for too long at the beginning.  Hopefully it's been improved in the quick battles since CMSF.

Offline Jarhead0331

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Re: CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2015, 12:56:39 PM »
Just fired up my first battle.  I played as the Russians tasked with attacking a town held by a Ukranian mech unit.

I totally got my ass handed to me.

The main problems I need to address are laziness and impatience. I'm careless with my troops and I fail to utilize all of their assets when necessary. I habitually ignore smoke when moving across open ground, almost never suppress a location prior to advancing troops, and almost never prioritize getting spotters to high ground where they can call in accurate support.  Additionally, I typically try to get units to their targeted locations as quickly as possible, rather than as cautiously as possible.  I need to keep my finger off of the quick and fast advance comments and use hunt and slow more often.

Failing to do the above will lead to catastrophic failure with gruesome results.

I had the same issue in Shockforce for awhile, but I eventually played out the Marine campaign professionally and the results were dramatically improved.
You may be doing this already, so I apologise in advance if I'm teaching you to suck eggs... but using small scout teams through cover as a screen is very helpful to pinpoint enemy positions for relatively little risk. Once you have ID'd an enemy position pull them back - they are not there to engage, and then try to scope out the supporting positions. Once you have an idea of the enemy positions you can formulate your plan to advance to engage - preferably through a covered route to avoid casualties. Hope that helps to reduce your losses. :)

Thanks, I know. My problem isn't that I don't know what to do...its that I'm too lazy and impatient to do it. I've become too accustomed to games that are not authentic and that do not punish the player for tactical errors or sloppiness. This game is definitely going to reform my evil ways!
Grogheads Uber Alles
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Offline mikeck

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Re: CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2015, 01:31:40 PM »
Just fired up my first battle.  I played as the Russians tasked with attacking a town held by a Ukranian mech unit.

I totally got my ass handed to me.

The main problems I need to address are laziness and impatience. I'm careless with my troops and I fail to utilize all of their assets when necessary. I habitually ignore smoke when moving across open ground, almost never suppress a location prior to advancing troops, and almost never prioritize getting spotters to high ground where they can call in accurate support.  Additionally, I typically try to get units to their targeted locations as quickly as possible, rather than as cautiously as possible.  I need to keep my finger off of the quick and fast advance comments and use hunt and slow more often.

Failing to do the above will lead to catastrophic failure with gruesome results.

I had the same issue in Shockforce for awhile, but I eventually played out the Marine campaign professionally and the results were dramatically improved.

So what you are saying is -and I'm not being facetious- that you have to use actual tactics. It's not any more realistic in the game to expect fully combat loaded infantry to sprint across an open field without suppressing Fire and smoke than in real life?
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Offline MikeGER

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Re: CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2015, 01:37:34 PM »
its that I'm too lazy and impatient to do it. I've become too accustomed to games that are not authentic and that do not punish the player for tactical errors or sloppiness. This game is definitely going to reform my evil ways!

+1
this morn i played the first smallest scenario (August) ...accidentally i started it on continuous time, not a good idea ...and managed to get a draw.
then this eve i though: now i do it by the book! (and in WeGo of course)
 
It was almost like in a war movie.
All went well, i lost one MG team by enemy mortar fire, got the Intel from the destroyed enemy HQ vehicles had only 9 min left on the clock and 2 casualties in the rilfe squad near the now cleared central objective... i wanted to give them medical attention ... the heavy wounded got treated ... not much time left on the clock. now i rushed the rifle team and the MG team uphill back to the exfill where the HQ and the observer were already waiting ... far on the other side of the map a single soldier must have survived all my artillery barrages airbursts somewhere in a hedge ... he got one of my guys in the open close before reaching the woodline (like in the movies) ... my mortars were already Winchester, so no help form HQ or the observer ... of course i want to treat this heavy wounded too ... No one shall left behind! ... i order the MG team also on its way to exfill to stop , drop, turn and immediately give suppressive fire ... the bastards jogged on ... another 1 minute passed by ... the situation on the open field got dramatic: another casualty and all others but one lucky guy light wounded ... finally the MG team stopped and opened up ... only 3 min left on the clock ... i didn't made the exfill-in-time condition, ....but at least a Minor US victory:-)

who says you cant have fun with only a handful - literally! - units and on a small map.             
 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 01:43:55 PM by MikeGER »

Offline Cyrano

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Re: CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2015, 02:15:26 PM »
Just finished the Tutorial campaign...man...

1: Engagement ranges.  Yeah...too much CMRT &c. lately...wow.  In this respect, the two gunnery range missions are a helpful tonic.

2:  I am a fan of CAS, if I can get a bit impatient waiting for it to arrive.  Also, it's a hard thing to calibrate, i.e., what's too much, too little, too long?

3:  Like Mike suggested above, the up-gunning of the individual soldier is one of the bigger shifts for me.  In CM's WWII iterations, troops, even those in the weeds, had best stay hid most of the time when AFVs are about.  DEFINITELY not so here, particularly in CQB.  I also like his comment about it feeling like a war movie at the best of time.  It truly does.  It makes clear that there's few cases where even victorious troops don't get badly hit and hurt.  Admirably real.

4:  I can't exactly say why, but I've never split squads on a regular basis.  It strikes me as necessary for recon.

5:  UAVs are remarkable, particularly when you stir the bee's nest and everything inside comes into the clear running.

6:  Oh my goodness the toys you can play with.  I've been listening to "The Outpost" on CD and suddenly having to fool about with an LMVT makes me understanding the frustrations expressed by the soldiers in that incident related in the book all the more.

And this, of course, makes me all the more eager to have them bolt the CMx2 3.0 back onto CM:SF as they had suggested they might.

Great stuff so far.

Best,

Jim
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Offline panzerde

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Re: CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2015, 02:19:04 PM »

So what you are saying is -and I'm not being facetious- that you have to use actual tactics. It's not any more realistic in the game to expect fully combat loaded infantry to sprint across an open field without suppressing Fire and smoke than in real life?

Nope, nor is it good practice to move AFVs in the open, or neglect overwatch, etc. The CMx2 games require good tactics. You need to scout, you need to plan, and you need to exercise caution. If you "hurry up so you can get to the good stuff" as a recent poster put it, you better play on the lowest difficulty levels, because otherwise you're going to get shredded.
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Offline jomni

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Re: CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2015, 03:42:42 PM »
You may be doing this already, so I apologise in advance if I'm teaching you to suck eggs... but using small scout teams through cover as a screen is very helpful to pinpoint enemy positions for relatively little risk. Once you have ID'd an enemy position pull them back - they are not there to engage, and then try to scope out the supporting positions. Once you have an idea of the enemy positions you can formulate your plan to advance to engage - preferably through a covered route to avoid casualties. Hope that helps to reduce your losses. :)

What about use the UAV's to scout the area?   O0  I just thought of this after my first quick battle and my vehicles got smashed badly.  My problem is arty support.  I never used it.  Never got the vantage point early enough to rain down on the defenders.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 03:47:34 PM by jomni »

Offline JudgeDredd

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Re: CM: Black Sea Strategy Discussion Thread
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2015, 04:16:32 PM »
Just fired up my first battle.  I played as the Russians tasked with attacking a town held by a Ukranian mech unit.

I totally got my ass handed to me.

The main problems I need to address are laziness and impatience. I'm careless with my troops and I fail to utilize all of their assets when necessary. I habitually ignore smoke when moving across open ground, almost never suppress a location prior to advancing troops, and almost never prioritize getting spotters to high ground where they can call in accurate support.  Additionally, I typically try to get units to their targeted locations as quickly as possible, rather than as cautiously as possible.  I need to keep my finger off of the quick and fast advance comments and use hunt and slow more often.

Failing to do the above will lead to catastrophic failure with gruesome results.

I had the same issue in Shockforce for awhile, but I eventually played out the Marine campaign professionally and the results were dramatically improved.
You may be doing this already, so I apologise in advance if I'm teaching you to suck eggs... but using small scout teams through cover as a screen is very helpful to pinpoint enemy positions for relatively little risk. Once you have ID'd an enemy position pull them back - they are not there to engage, and then try to scope out the supporting positions. Once you have an idea of the enemy positions you can formulate your plan to advance to engage - preferably through a covered route to avoid casualties. Hope that helps to reduce your losses. :)

Thanks, I know. My problem isn't that I don't know what to do...its that I'm too lazy and impatient to do it. I've become too accustomed to games that are not authentic and that do not punish the player for tactical errors or sloppiness. This game is definitely going to reform my evil ways!
It's not just that.

It's also "programmed" into you from the game. It's very difficult to gauge how long it's going to take you to cross the map, engage and take objectives. So if you have 30 minutes or 3 hours means virtually nothing. You don't know how long to wait until that smoke arrives. You don't know how long to spend scouting that first kilometre. You order an airstrike on an area you know to contain enemy and it's really, REALLY difficult (and against the grain) to sit and do nothing for 6 minutes waiting for that airstrike! You're always thinking about where you have to get to and with no idea of how long it will take you to do so.

Add on to all that uncertainty the certainty that you have 60 minutes to complete the task, and you're bound to throw caution to the wind.

As an example, and maybe the other end of your problem, is I tend to baby step forward...then realising time is moving and I have a shit load of map to cover, I then throw caution to the wind - only to be mowed down....even though my first half hour showed no contact (or very little and far away).

I've just lost 2 T72's in quick succession in my game because I cautiously advanced for the first 20 minutes and, meeting nothing, went forward more than I should've...mainly because I was aware of the time and how far I had to go.
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