Author Topic: Carriers at War  (Read 29576 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Staggerwing

  • Blunderbuster
  • ****
  • Posts: 20842
  • "Today your love... tomorrow the World!"
Re: Carriers at War
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2019, 07:33:13 PM »
I really loved the original CAW series, culminating in the Complete Carriers At War compilation release. It was fun to mod, and one of my fondest memories of it was adding the USN's ZRS scout-fighter-carrying zeppelins as an available unit. Sure they were a bit crude but it was good times none the less.  O0
Vituđ ér enn - eđa hvat?  -Voluspa

Nothing really rocks and nothing really rolls and nothing's ever worth the cost...

"Don't you look at me that way..." -the Abyss
 
'When searching for a meaningful embrace, sometimes my self respect took second place' -Iggy Pop, Cry for Love

... this will go down on your permanent record... -the Violent Femmes, 'Kiss Off'-

"I'm not just anyone, I'm not just anyone-
I got my time machine, got my 'electronic dream!"
-Sonic Reducer, -Dead Boys

Offline dinsdale

  • Velites
  • **
  • Posts: 88
Re: Carriers at War
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2019, 08:25:41 PM »
I may not be a useful sample, as I didn't like any pc carrier game :)

I did love playing Flat Top and Second Fleet but never found what I liked translated on the PC.

The other roughly related game I enjoyed was PC Harpoon in the 90s.

- What were the three things you liked most
Those games created tension, lots and lots of tension.
They also created narrative. When a game doesn't feel totally random, or totally weighted toward the AI then the weird events and good/bad luck generate a natural narrative which adds to the game and completely dwarfs the competitive nature of it.
Lastly, the nature of the games were just the right amount of micromanagement to be involved and neither swamped with busy work nor detached to the point of watching a bad animation.

- What were the three things you hated most
I can only really speak for Carriers at war, because I don't remember any other game as vividly.
I hated the rails each scenario had me playing on. The enemy is somewhere over there, let me launch some recon planes, if I find them first I win, otherwise I lose.

I also hated that greater difficulty levels simply made the enemy better at spotting/bombing while making me worse. I understand AI is hard, but handicapping can be done more subtly and cleverly than giving the enemy laser guided bombs in 1942.

- What were the three things it didn't have, that you wish it had
The ability to stop time; prevent me growing up; gaining responsibilities and having almost no time to play games :)

Offline The_Admiral

  • Viking
  • ****
  • Posts: 324
Re: Carriers at War
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2019, 11:26:04 PM »
Quite the opposite actually dinsdale , don't be shy!

If you'd like to comment further about your experience with Flat Top, Second Fleet (or Midway, or Carrier, etc...) please feel free to give them the same treatment. I mentioned PC games because we are in the computer wargaming forum, but if you want to elaborate, be my guest. In a matter of game design, everything counts.

Feedback on tabletop wargaming options is all the more precious knowing that I will never have the opportunity to experience it myself beyond reading the rules and playing around with the vassal module...  :'(

Thank you for your great input!

I really loved the original CAW series, culminating in the Complete Carriers At War compilation release. It was fun to mod, and one of my fondest memories of it was adding the USN's ZRS scout-fighter-carrying zeppelins as an available unit. Sure they were a bit crude but it was good times none the less.  O0

Aye, pre-war is very fun. A bit crimson sky-esque!


Carrier strike random missions. Better replay ability vs Carriers at War.
Good, thank you! Fortunately it is already part of the plan.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 11:27:47 PM by The_Admiral »

Offline Wburn

  • Velites
  • **
  • Posts: 61
Re: Carriers at War
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2019, 01:36:52 AM »
I can only use CAW the new version. I really liked the game since it was fun identifying and setting up strike missions against enemy fleets and land targets. I guess my wish would be missions in the Mediterranean, North Atlantic, and Baltic sea.
Another game I would be happy to see modern makeover would be War plan Orange. I would like to see scaling for modern computers I think it gets stuck at 800x600.

Thank you!

Offline JasonPratt

  • Arquebusier
  • ***
  • Posts: 18306
  • Now let us see what the future will bring...
    • The Evangelical Universalist
Re: Carriers at War
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2019, 10:07:46 AM »
Another game I would be happy to see modern makeover would be War plan Orange. I would like to see scaling for modern computers I think it gets stuck at 800x600.


THHHISSSSS!!!!1!

+1  O:-)
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in chronological order. Lots and lots of order...

Dawn of Armageddon -- a narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse: The Hunt Begins: Insert Joke Here!

Survive Harder! In the grim darkness of the bowl there is only, um, Amazons. And tentacles and midgets. Not remotely what you're thinking! ...okay, maybe a little remotely.

PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Season One complete; Fantasy Wars AAR, lots of screenies.

Offline The_Admiral

  • Viking
  • ****
  • Posts: 324
Re: Carriers at War
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2019, 09:27:24 PM »
Well, I'd lie if I was to say that I didn't plan personally a pre-war expansion. These little biplane gnats buzzing all around, 50+ plane deckloads, etc... They sure have their charm in their own right!
And these would fit a Cthulhu scenario very well too  >:D

Honestly, there's nothing more elegant than a MS-1 camo Yorktown. She's a cutie pie.

Offline Staggerwing

  • Blunderbuster
  • ****
  • Posts: 20842
  • "Today your love... tomorrow the World!"
Re: Carriers at War
« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2019, 06:26:01 AM »
Well, I'd lie if I was to say that I didn't plan personally a pre-war expansion.

Grumman F3Fs, Curtis Goshawks, Boeing F4Bs... throw in the ZRSs with their Sparrowhawk scout/fighters and you can have my money now.  O0
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 06:28:04 PM by Staggerwing »
Vituđ ér enn - eđa hvat?  -Voluspa

Nothing really rocks and nothing really rolls and nothing's ever worth the cost...

"Don't you look at me that way..." -the Abyss
 
'When searching for a meaningful embrace, sometimes my self respect took second place' -Iggy Pop, Cry for Love

... this will go down on your permanent record... -the Violent Femmes, 'Kiss Off'-

"I'm not just anyone, I'm not just anyone-
I got my time machine, got my 'electronic dream!"
-Sonic Reducer, -Dead Boys

Offline Toonces

  • Global Moderator
  • Arquebusier
  • *****
  • Posts: 11959
  • Yvan eht nioj!
Re: Carriers at War
« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2019, 09:18:40 PM »
I think the problem with Carriers at War is that you're really limited on the interesting decisions you have to make.  Carrier warfare was always about getting off the first effective strike, but when the game is as limited as CAW is in time and space, there's only so much you can do.

A more interesting game would scope out much farther.  I'm thinking something like Uncommon Valor.  If you could take the operational layer of UV and then take it down to the tactical level of CAW when the fleets are within striking range, that would make for a very fun game.

If you wanted to make it even better, export all of the tactical positions to a flight simulator like IL-2 and let the player actually fly the strike.

Now THAT would be a classic game!
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

Offline besilarius

  • Landsknecht
  • *******
  • Posts: 5378
  • ringmaster at circus amateur night
Re: Carriers at War
« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2019, 09:58:29 PM »
Toonces, you're right that there are a limited amount of options.
One thing that would show the difference between USN and IJN methods, and give you some extra decision making is the force anti aircraft tactics.
The Japanese relied on the maneuverability of their carriers.  The weapons suite was relatively poor, and to enhance the freedom of maneuver, the escorts typically spread out away from the carriers.
The USN by contrast,  had a very strong and layered AA weapons suite.  And they worked on tactics to give a layered defence.
The carriers would be in the center of the formation, and near the end of the war, there were Task Groups with up to five carriers.  Then there was a ring of heavy ships, battleships and cruisers, at anywhere from 500 to 1,000 yards around the carriers.
For steaming, there was an outer ring of destroyers that was further out.  When an air attack was detected, the destroyers moved into the ring of cruisers to enhance their firepower.
Totally different methods of defending the high value ships.

The possible problem with the USN method was the tighter the ring, the greater chance of an airborne torpedo hitting something.  Or leading to the maneuvering ships to collide.
Gerry Bogan preferred to have the ring in really tight to the carriers.  But his Task Group normally operated with only three carriers.
Slew McCain, who's group had five carriers, preferred his ring to be further from the high value center group.  He noted a worry about collisions.
If the game allowed this kind of detail, it would give you some choices in your AA defence scheme for the americans.
Forthe Japanese, though, there isn't enough information in english to determine if they ever changed their tactics.
“Most gods throw dice, but Fate plays chess, and you don’t find out until too late that he’s been playing with two queens all along”.  Terry Pratchett.

During filming of Airplane, Leslie Nielsen used a whoopee cushion to keep the cast off-balance. Hays said that Nielsen "played that thing like a maestro"

Tallulah Bankhead: "I'll come and make love to you at five o'clock. If I'm late, start without me."

"When all other trusts fail, turn to Flashman." — Abraham Lincoln.

"I have enjoyed very warm relations with my two husbands."
"With your eyes closed?"
"That helped."  Lauren Bacall

Master Chiefs are sneaky, dastardly, and snarky miscreants who thrive on the tears of Ensigns and belly dancers.   Admiral Gerry Bogan.

Offline The_Admiral

  • Viking
  • ****
  • Posts: 324
Re: Carriers at War
« Reply #69 on: April 20, 2019, 11:37:21 PM »

If the game allowed this kind of detail, it would give you some choices in your AA defence scheme for the americans.
Forthe Japanese, though, there isn't enough information in english to determine if they ever changed their tactics.

It will. Fleet formations for now, and for the foreseeable future if we don't run into technical limitations - will be fully customizable. You pick (or you're handed) a standard formation, and you decide what to do with it. After all, Harpoon lets you do it, it's the very least we could think of, even though it's a bit of a challenge in terms of programming for a 3D universe.

In this we are helped by the fact that 1942 didn't have many instances of multi-CV Task Groups - just TF11/17 at Coral Sea and TF16 at Midway. We're stopping short of the 1943 debate about the matter, and it is all the more understandable that a flag officer of the time would be keen on making experiments. Same thing with CAP, which will be highly customizable in terms of numbers, sector distribution, distance & altitude layering. 1942 is a year made of uncertainties, and this helps with making such a topic interesting. It's Hey Rube time after all, isn't it.

Regarding the Japanese side, formations will be customizable in the mission builder but we plan on making it a AI-only side for volume 1. Still, fleet doctrine and formation will be implemented of course in order for the Kido Butai and lesser formations to behave in a believable way. Making circles and crazy zig zags shouldn't be the only behavior though - especially if a carrier has the option to run and hide into some squall, like Zuikaku did at Coral Sea.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 12:54:33 AM by The_Admiral »

Offline The_Admiral

  • Viking
  • ****
  • Posts: 324
Re: Carriers at War
« Reply #70 on: April 21, 2019, 12:46:47 AM »
I think the problem with Carriers at War is that you're really limited on the interesting decisions you have to make.  Carrier warfare was always about getting off the first effective strike, but when the game is as limited as CAW is in time and space, there's only so much you can do.

A more interesting game would scope out much farther.  I'm thinking something like Uncommon Valor.  If you could take the operational layer of UV and then take it down to the tactical level of CAW when the fleets are within striking range, that would make for a very fun game.

If you wanted to make it even better, export all of the tactical positions to a flight simulator like IL-2 and let the player actually fly the strike.

Now THAT would be a classic game!

Well, yeah - a mix between Task Force 1942 campaign game and 1942: The Pacific Air War carrier battle module is a wet dream of mine.
We will start with the latter, and ultimately try to develop further, in terms of scale and platforms both.

Offline besilarius

  • Landsknecht
  • *******
  • Posts: 5378
  • ringmaster at circus amateur night
Re: Carriers at War
« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2019, 06:15:27 AM »
Before the Battle of Santa Cruz, COMNAVAIRPAC, Admiral Jack Towers, suggested that Enterprise and Hornet should operate in one Task Group.  This was to maximise AA defences, by not splitting escorts between two groups.
Admiral Kincaid, who had no operational experience with carriers in combat, opted to have the carriers seperated.
After the battle, Towers roasted Kincaid for splitting the carriers apart and blamed him for losing Hornet.  Nimitz had more sympathy.
This could be one choice for the US player.

Clarence McCluskey, who led the Enterprise attack at Midway, wrote post war that he felt it was a mistake to send Air Group Six home.  The new Air Group (10 I think?) had no combat experience.  He thought having a veteran group of pilots would have made a difference.

Little factoid, the captain of Hornet was Charles P Mason.  The P was for Perry.
The crew had a lot of fun calling him Perry Mason, and The Lawyer.
“Most gods throw dice, but Fate plays chess, and you don’t find out until too late that he’s been playing with two queens all along”.  Terry Pratchett.

During filming of Airplane, Leslie Nielsen used a whoopee cushion to keep the cast off-balance. Hays said that Nielsen "played that thing like a maestro"

Tallulah Bankhead: "I'll come and make love to you at five o'clock. If I'm late, start without me."

"When all other trusts fail, turn to Flashman." — Abraham Lincoln.

"I have enjoyed very warm relations with my two husbands."
"With your eyes closed?"
"That helped."  Lauren Bacall

Master Chiefs are sneaky, dastardly, and snarky miscreants who thrive on the tears of Ensigns and belly dancers.   Admiral Gerry Bogan.

Offline Wburn

  • Velites
  • **
  • Posts: 61
Re: Carriers at War
« Reply #72 on: April 21, 2019, 01:58:12 PM »
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/725163.pdf

I ran across this analysis of Kamikaze attacks and collateral damage from friendly fire. Lots of data,but what stood out to me was the success rate of attacks on allied shipping depending on the angle of attack. I think it stated something like 43% when the diving aircraft was at a 45 degree angle.
Anyhow, since it's about the Pacific and carrier ops it may be useful.

Offline Toonces

  • Global Moderator
  • Arquebusier
  • *****
  • Posts: 11959
  • Yvan eht nioj!
Re: Carriers at War
« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2019, 04:39:46 PM »
I fired up CAW again last night.  After playing it, I may have been a bit hasty with my comments above.  There's more tactical depth and room to maneuver than I remember previously.

I still think the presentation is too cartoonish, but the underlying game seems solid.

I'll have to give some real thought to what I would change.
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

Offline DoctorQuest

  • Condottieri
  • ******
  • Posts: 2469
  • I'm not a real doctor.
Re: Carriers at War
« Reply #74 on: April 22, 2019, 06:51:55 PM »
^The original or the remake?
"Everything you read on the internet is true." - Benjamin Franklin

"Zero-G and I feel fine....." - John Glenn

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." - Adam Savage, inventor of the alternative fact.