GrogHeads Forum

Tabletop Gaming, Models, and Minis => Modelling and Miniatures => Topic started by: TheCommandTent on October 18, 2012, 08:38:11 PM

Title: Crisis of Scale
Post by: TheCommandTent on October 18, 2012, 08:38:11 PM
*begin ramble*

So I am having a bit of a crisis of scale concerning figures to use with my recently purchased Bolt Action rules.  Before even buying the rules I knew that I would not be doing 28mm figures.  I just don't have the time, budget or painting skill for that scale.  At least for WWII gaming.  So that left me with the choice between 20mm/1:72 scale or 15mm.  I already had a few 1:72 kits and German and American figures.  A few of the figures were paint, although they were painted a couple years ago when I first got into the hobby and are nothing to look at.  So I have been painting and assembling some more 1:72 figures and vehicles.  I will still need more figures and vehicles etc. so I have been shopping around and there is alot out there in 20mm/1:72.  Although alot of the figures from different companies vary greatly within the "1:72 scale" which is a whole other issue in itself.

While I was doing this research I came across a couple AARs of Bolt Action using individually based 15mm figures and I really liked what I saw.  So now I am doubting my choice of 1:72 scale.  I have a small number of 15mm American FOW minis that I have a few I tried painting but most were never painted and are just sitting around.  Again these are from when I first got into the hobby and the paint jobs leave much to be desired.

So now I have this dilemma.  I have figures in both scales but not enough of either to really field a full force of Germans and Americans.  I also have some terrain in both scales that I've collected.  I've looked at the pros/cons of each scale in terms of painting, space needed to play, and expense.  I just can't seem to make a decision one way or the other and that is something I really want to do before shelling out more money to field a force.  For now I think I will continue to work on my already started 1:72 figures but also paint up some 15mm figures just so I can get a feel for each on the table (I'll have to find a few 15mm Germans to try out as well.) 

Right now I am leaning to 15mm after reading the AAR and considering the more space I would have on a table to play.  Also I think I could paint up a force faster in 15mm.  But then again I have a decent start in 1:72.  So yeah that is where I am right now.  Any thoughts or comments from you guys would be most appreciated.

*end ramble*
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: eyebiter on October 19, 2012, 04:56:57 AM
How large is the current table surface?

Once you decide which scale, check The Miniatures Page classifieds.  Recall some of those guys do army trades.
http://theminiaturespage.com/trade/
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: TheCommandTent on October 19, 2012, 05:35:21 AM
How large is the current table surface?

Once you decide which scale, check The Miniatures Page classifieds.  Recall some of those guys do army trades.
http://theminiaturespage.com/trade/


I have no permanent table surface but when I can talk the wife into using the dinning room table I have almost a 4ftx6ft game surface (the table is rounded).  I also have a 4ftx4ft mat I can set up on the floor and use if I get desperate.
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 19, 2012, 05:51:20 AM
I decided to go with 20mm myself.  I have found that I can comfortably use 1/72 and 1/76 scale models for vehicles, as well as those very nice Dragon, pre-built ones.  Also plenty of buildings and terrain available...

I have armies of 15mm Napoleonics so am comfortable painting them, but I actually like painting 20mm because I can put in those extra details that escape my abilities at 15mm. 

My favorite mini lines are AB (expensive...but just the best in terms of detail and proportion) followed by Fantassin.  But the nice thing about 20mm is that I can fall back on good old plastic if I need to.

In short, my vote is on 20mm.
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: LongBlade on October 19, 2012, 06:01:54 AM
Before you go whole hog on the scale thing I suggest you play with the mixed scale minis to determine how much you like the game system.

Seeing that you bought some Flames but never did anything with them, you may decide you want to get back into that. So booting the 15mm stuff might be a bad idea. You might also find that you don't love Bolt Action any more than Flames and boot that, too.

OTOH it might kick off a renaissance of WWII mini love which sees you getting into both systems. Or you might decide Bolt is perfect and you'd rather do 1/72. Or 28mm.

So my advice is to play with the mixed scale until you've vetted the game more thoroughly. Unless you already have, in which case you can ignore all of the above ;)
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: Con on October 19, 2012, 06:04:02 AM
I had the same issue when I was playing Battleground.  I went with 20mm since I thought I would enjoy the greater detail for painting.  That turned out to be a mistake as I was always noting flaws on my techniques and felt that my painted figures were not turning out great.  The other issue then became time as I slaved over those figures I was barely turning any out and a game requires a good diverse number of them.  Lastly I saw that there is more flexibility with terrain out there for 15mm (ie a 20mm figure with a smaller scale house looks odd but not the other way around where a small figure is in a larger scale house).

So for these reasons if I was to do it again I would go with the 15mm

Con
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: TheCommandTent on October 19, 2012, 09:22:09 PM
Thanks for the feeback guys.  The flexability of 15mm terrain is appealing.   It is also easy to get ahold and easy to scratch build.

LB your suggestion is good stuff although I really need to get some one to teach me FOW so I can give that a try.  If I do use 15mm for Bolt Action I will probably base them individually.
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: Jack Nastyface on October 19, 2012, 10:59:58 PM
FWIW...I like / love 1/72 20mm scale just because it's "where I started" with scale model building and mini-gaming.  I recently had plans to do some Force-on-Force stuff, so bought a bunch of 1/72 scale modern US armor.  The GOOD thing about this is that it allows me to build 1/72 armor...the BAD thing is that it takes me forever to build a piece because I am so particular about model building (filing off mold lines, enlarging holes with a pin-vise, etc).  Considering that wargaming minis tend to get handled fairly roughly, I think the sturdy 15mm stuff might be best.  If there was an equivalent line for modern, I would seriously consider it.

Just my 2 cents.

Jack Nastyface
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: bob48 on October 20, 2012, 05:24:22 AM
^Yep, I started with Airfix 1/72 stuff as well, many moons ago. However, since then I have probably done more 15mm mini's than any other scale.

There are plenty of benefits from 15mm. You can pack a lot of stuff in a relatively small playing area, and fight some big battles if you do have plenty of gaming space. The range of stuff available is staggering, and for just about any period you can think of.

Figures at that scale can be detailed enough to look good but without having to put in all the effort that you need for painting 28/30mm stuff. In addition, 15mm is a lot cheaper to buy than larger figs, so you get more bangs for your bucks.

Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: Double Deuce on October 20, 2012, 06:01:44 AM
I'm actually looking at getting into some mini stuff and so far have been leaning towards 15mm. Mostly because it show less details and my newbie painting skill mistake would be easier to hide. Anyone have recommended preferences for Dark Age (and Fantasy) 15mm manufacturers?
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: TheCommandTent on October 20, 2012, 06:36:06 AM
I'm actually looking at getting into some mini stuff and so far have been leaning towards 15mm. Mostly because it show less details and my newbie painting skill mistake would be easier to hide. Anyone have recommended preferences for Dark Age (and Fantasy) 15mm manufacturers?

Actually Dark Age/Fantasy figures are the only ones I do in 28mm, they just have alot of really cool figures and ranges for 28mm.

As for 15mm these links might be useful.

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=190776

http://www.essexminiatures.co.uk/darkagepg1.html

http://www.rebelminis.com/mightyarmies.html
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: besilarius on October 20, 2012, 06:52:40 AM
Tent, this may sound like heresay (and is), but since you are still on the verge of beginning, give this a thought.
Is it the painting that excites you?  Or the gaming?
If it is the painting, then definitely 15 mil and 1/72 are the way to do it.
If the gaming, or the game system, is driving this, then give 1/285 microarmor a spin?
It takes much less time and money to field an accessible force.
Base them oncounters or tiles with some flocking and sand to give a natural look, and get gaming.
One advantage to this is there are a lot of microarmor gamers out there, so it could be a ready force on hand if you find such a group.
The other advantage is the painting is quite easy, and you can use these figs to learn the system without a huge investment in time, painting effort, and cash.
Once you see that the rules catch your fancy, you can always move up to the larger figures.  Justify this to yourself as a starter set.

http://www.ghqmodels.com/pages/military/index.asp
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: TheCommandTent on October 20, 2012, 07:04:28 AM
Tent, this may sound like heresay (and is), but since you are still on the verge of beginning, give this a thought.
Is it the painting that excites you?  Or the gaming?
If it is the painting, then definitely 15 mil and 1/72 are the way to do it.
If the gaming, or the game system, is driving this, then give 1/285 microarmor a spin?
It takes much less time and money to field an accessible force.
Base them oncounters or tiles with some flocking and sand to give a natural look, and get gaming.
One advantage to this is there are a lot of microarmor gamers out there, so it could be a ready force on hand if you find such a group.
The other advantage is the painting is quite easy, and you can use these figs to learn the system without a huge investment in time, painting effort, and cash.
Once you see that the rules catch your fancy, you can always move up to the larger figures.  Justify this to yourself as a starter set.

http://www.ghqmodels.com/pages/military/index.asp

It is definitely the gaming that I enjoy the most.  Although making terrain is a close second.  I enjoyed the finished product of painting but I am a very slow painter with only mediocre skill at best.  I can do it but sometimes it seems like a chore.  That being said I understand what you mean about smaller scales and being easier to paint.  When I first got into the hobby I was given a box of micro armor from GHQ and while I can see the appeal especially for large tanks battles and maneuver scenarios it was just to small for the kind of skirmish gaming I like.  With Bolt Action being a skirmish game 15mm would be the smallest I would go.  That would still be less painting then 1/72 so that is why I am leaning in the direction.
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: besilarius on October 20, 2012, 07:36:22 AM
If it will help you begin to push more lead, then it is a good thing.
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: TheCommandTent on October 20, 2012, 04:12:54 PM
If it will help you begin to push more lead, then it is a good thing.

Thats my biggest thing now, I just want to get some men on the table and roll some dice!
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: TheCommandTent on October 22, 2012, 08:23:12 PM
While looking through my stash of miniature wargaming stuff I came across an interesting find.  I knew that in the past I had purchased some 15mm figures but I was surprised to find that some of them were painted!  Now as you can tell from the picture these were painted and based when I was first getting into the hobby, so the paint jobs are a bit embarrassing. 


(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z397/SoccerDJ04/LookwhatIfound_zps68277490.jpg)


So now I have figures and vehicles painted in both scales so neither has a clear advantage in terms of wargaming ready forces.  I still have not made a decision either way but will continue to paint in both scales until I am swayed one way or another.  Unless of course I just want to collect and paint both scales. :)
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: LongBlade on October 22, 2012, 08:59:37 PM
They look fine. You'd fit in well in our FoW group.
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 23, 2012, 05:17:39 AM
Not to derail the thread, but just curious what rules are folks using for WWII?   

Sounds like Bolt Action comes up alot.

Anyone using Final Combat or Battleground?
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: TheCommandTent on October 23, 2012, 06:26:42 AM
They look fine. You'd fit in well in our FoW group.

Thanks.  I wish I lived close enough.  I am dying for a wargaming group.
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: TheCommandTent on October 23, 2012, 06:27:50 AM
Not to derail the thread, but just curious what rules are folks using for WWII?   

Sounds like Bolt Action comes up alot.

Anyone using Final Combat or Battleground?

I just bought Bolt Action and hopefully will try them out soon.  I also have Nuts! from Two Hour Wargames which is fun.
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: LongBlade on October 23, 2012, 09:24:14 AM
Not to derail the thread, but just curious what rules are folks using for WWII?   

Sounds like Bolt Action comes up alot.

Anyone using Final Combat or Battleground?

Never heard of these. I've been playing Flames of War.
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 23, 2012, 06:46:33 PM
I remember looking at Nuts! and hearing good things about it.  I seem to recall the rules had some sort of campaign generations system.  I'll take a better look at them.

Edit:  Just found Nuts! on wargamevault  interesting that there is a Korea expansion.  Taking a very serious look at them now.

Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: LongBlade on October 23, 2012, 07:24:25 PM
I remember looking at Nuts! and hearing good things about it.  I seem to recall the rules had some sort of campaign generations system.  I'll take a better look at them.

Edit:  Just found Nuts! on wargamevault  interesting that there is a Korea expansion.  Taking a very serious look at them now.

Nuts! I've heard of. Never played it.
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: TheCommandTent on October 23, 2012, 08:13:04 PM
I remember looking at Nuts! and hearing good things about it.  I seem to recall the rules had some sort of campaign generations system.  I'll take a better look at them.

Edit:  Just found Nuts! on wargamevault  interesting that there is a Korea expansion.  Taking a very serious look at them now.

Nuts! I've heard of. Never played it.
I remember looking at Nuts! and hearing good things about it.  I seem to recall the rules had some sort of campaign generations system.  I'll take a better look at them.

Edit:  Just found Nuts! on wargamevault  interesting that there is a Korea expansion.  Taking a very serious look at them now.

They advertise that it plays like you are in a movie and its true.  Its also very solo friendly and you can play co-op which is fun.
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: Con on October 23, 2012, 08:54:31 PM
Our war gaming group has been playing with the following rule set for the last couple of years

Ain't been shot mum from the too fat ladies based in the uk

Here is the link
http://toofatlardies.co.uk/

I recommend these rules the have some unique devices like hidden blinds and using command figures known as big men to reduce your hits and pins. It plays well and is not gamy in my opinion

Con
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: TheCommandTent on October 23, 2012, 08:59:54 PM
Our war gaming group has been playing with the following rule set for the last couple of years

Ain't been shot mum from the too fat ladies based in the uk

Here is the link
http://toofatlardies.co.uk/

I recommend these rules the have some unique devices like hidden blinds and using command figures known as big men to reduce your hits and pins. It plays well and is not gamy in my opinion

Con

I've heard good things about these rules and really want to see them in action in person sometime.
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: bob48 on October 24, 2012, 12:05:15 PM
Never heard of those rules before, so thanks for the link. I'm very tempted to invest 8 ounds in them.
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: DV8 on October 24, 2012, 02:54:52 PM
I would go with 15mm.  This allows for easy conversion from inches to cm for measuring.  1" becomes 1cm.  15mm is easy to paint a large amount of minis in no time.  15mm will also allow you to play other games such as Command Decision, Flames of War and Blitzkrieg General with the same models so long as you base them in a similar fashion.
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: Con on October 24, 2012, 03:14:36 PM
Our war gaming group has been playing with the following rule set for the last couple of years

Ain't been shot mum from the too fat ladies based in the uk

Here is the link
http://toofatlardies.co.uk/

I recommend these rules the have some unique devices like hidden blinds and using command figures known as big men to reduce your hits and pins. It plays well and is not gamy in my opinion

Con
Ok Please excuse the spelling errors in my above post.  This is what comes from me pecking away on an ipad.  The website is the "too fat lardies" a pun or pune if you read Pratchett on "Two Fat Ladies" a cooking show.  Also the name Aint Been Shot mum is from a 70's sitcom of a group of British pongos "Lads in the army" who are part of an entertainment group sent off to Burma in WWII.  It is universally horrible and called "It aint half hot mum".  If you want to find something so appalling that it's very lack of humor and inbred unintended bigotry on natives and light in the loafers actors actually becomes hilarious; then you should seek out an episode on youtube.  But dont say I didnt warn you!

Con
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: bob48 on October 24, 2012, 03:57:47 PM
^Yuk!
I remember it well, and you're quite right, it was so bad it was actually funny, but would be condemed as being very un-PC now, even though the bitotry was entirely unintentional, in those unenlightened days.

I used to laugh me socks off!
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: Pinetree on October 26, 2012, 03:00:55 PM
Ha! To this day, I still think of Windsor Davies as the archetypical Sergeant-Major..

Deep voice: "Hello, my lovely boys!You are all a bunch of poofs!"

Back on topic: I'm thinking of getting into some science fiction gaming with Tomorrow's War, which seems to regarded as Stargrunt 3 by many, I'm not too sure whether to go for 15mm or 28mm.
Title: Re: Crisis of Scale
Post by: bob48 on October 26, 2012, 04:16:50 PM
Haha, yes, Windsor Davies - 'up the jungle' :-))

Anyway - back to the topic - I'm not familiar with those games. How many figures would you expect to table in an average game, and is it squad based or skirmish type as that often dictates figure scale - fewer figs, larger scale seems to be a rule-of-thumb.

Pretty much my only experience with SciFi figure games is 40K, 40K Epic and GW stuff in general.