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Tabletop Gaming, Models, and Minis => Forum-Based Games => Topic started by: JasonPratt on September 17, 2018, 04:04:17 PM

Title: Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 17, 2018, 04:04:17 PM
At long last, the GROGPUBLIC begins!

This will be (as far as I'm planning) the only actual game thread, for playing the game. The information thread (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22819.0) can be found at that link. And the signup thread (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22911.0) can be found at that link. Both are still viable in their own way.

The starting players will be:

ArizonaTank (aka Larry from the Crisis Grogs, longtime Groghead)
Dave from the Crisis Grogs (Ethel the Frog here on Grogheads)
IncompetentIdiot (a very new Groghead member)
Tripoli (of the Grogheads)

A slot was also reserved for Windigo but I never heard back from you. However: there are still four slots remaining, and if Windi or anyone else wants to join, it will be fairly easy for me to incorporate you as one of the remaining factions (semi-randomly chosen) at any time, though possibly with some game delay before I can phase you and your first senators in.

I have not, at the time of writing this post, generated the starting conditions for the game. This is simply to create the game-thread itself; to announce that I'm starting the game data generation; and to clarify that initial start positions are now closed (although ongoing positions remain open).

Later this evening I'll p-mail starting faction cards to all players, and explain what they do, and when you can play them (which I'll also p-mail reminders about when applicable.) I have sent initial pre-game p-mail checkins to all players, although at this time only I.I. has responded by p-mail. I have left instructions for p-mail usage near the bottom of the signup thread.

I strongly recommend all players either click the "notify" button at the bottom of this thread, and/or drop an initial post so that (if your forum account is set up to do so) your designated email address will receive updates for activity here. (...maybe. The forum engine gets a little squirrely about this.)

Off to start my work now! May you all keep the Republic alive against the slings of outrageous fortune!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 17, 2018, 05:19:31 PM
No players expressed any faction preferences (for or against).

I've now reached the point where I've dealt out the first senators and so formed the Player order around the table, as well as having assigned the four earliest factions. (Other players will be assigned to factions around the table whenifever they join in.)

I'll reveal the first senator families per se later tonight as I finish setup. Until then:

I.I., you drew the oldest average families, and so they formed THE ARISTOCRAT FACTION. You'll be Player 1.

AzTank and Tripoli's initial senators tied on Military score; and the Frog (Dave? Ethel? not sure what to call you here) tied them both on Influence. (Which is good: that means the factions will be pretty well balanced.)

But AzTankís senators have the highest remaining loyalty, so they formed THE CONSERVATIVE FACTION. You'll be Player 4.

This leaves Tripoli's senators with the highest remaining Military rating, so they formed THE MILITARIST FACTION. You'll be Player 2.

By deduction, this leaves the Frog with (aptly) the green Player 3, as his senators form THE PLUTOCRAT FACTION.

Everyone can check your Faction specialties starting back here in the Introduction thread. (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22819.msg628783#msg628783)

Factions are permanent throughout the game.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 17, 2018, 07:52:53 PM
TURN ZERO
---------

Status: the Republic starts with 0 Unrest, and with 30 Talents in the Roman Treasury. Income later in Turn One will be another 30 Talents. The 1st and 2nd Legions have been raised. Rome has enough manpower to raise another 5 Legions, potentially 7 maximum.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7013/YdLmVh.jpg)

The 1st Latin War is active, with the Enemy Leader Tarquinius Superbus. (Historically, this War represents Tarqyís attempt at taking back the kingship of Rome after the SPQR, the Senate and People of Rome, threw him out; but it also sort of represents the attempt of nearby Latin towns to secede from Roman rule, already established by the Roman kings. The prologue designer has intentionally conflated about three wars together here, since Tarqís actual attempt was rather lackluster.) It has a strength of 3 (2+1) thanks to Tarqy, who also improves the Disaster and Standoff chances.

If you can defeat this war, Tarqy will also be discarded, and Rome will gain 10 Talents. Defeating this war will also create Tax Farming Concessions 1 and 2 (allowing them to be played).

This War costs 10 Talents per Revenue Phase. Your Active Legions (whether on campaign or not) will cost 4 Talents (2x2). Basic net Roman income during Turn One will be 30 - 10 - 4 = +16 Talents.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9914/SSK2Im.jpg)

Currently, only the Statesman Lucius Junius Brutus (#10a), is waiting in the Forum. He will be assigned to whichever Faction first persuades Family 10, the Junii, to join. (If we had had one more player, or more, he would have been assigned automatically to whoever drew him, and would have been the starting Consul; but he wonít grant that ability now.) He has the ability to nullify Standoffs and Disasters, if assigned to fight the 1st Latin War. I'll remind players about him once he becomes relevant.

Since weíre starting with only 4 players, I have dealt out everyone 2 Faction cards. You should have each received a p-mail from me by now, detailing what youíve drawn, how to use them, and when thatís possible. You may reveal as many of your Faction cards as you want to anyone, at any time, in any way; but Iíll always Ďgiveí them to you privately first. Iíll also let you know when youíre over your hand limit (5 cards) so you can think about discarding, playing, or donating to another Player (perhaps for considerations! :D) You may trade or donate Faction cards at any time after the end of the first Turn; but they will not come into play until the end of the Turn. Iíll let you know when. (If you trade privately, Iíll keep them turned down, but you need to send me a p-mail to let me know so I can keep track of the game status!)

Faction starting information comes next.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 17, 2018, 08:38:33 PM
Other than any unplayed (or unrevealed) Faction cards, everything else in the game is public information. I've already given the starting stats for the Republic per se (30 cash, 30 income coming, 1 War and 1 Enemy leader active, Unrest 0, two Legions active, five more Legions potentially. The war will cost 10 talents this turn, your legions 2x2=4 more.)

I.I. will be the Aristocrats. (I linked to everyone's special abilities upthread, but I'll keep track of them and remind y'all where appropriate. I highly recommend Players keep their own notes along the way, tho!)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6735/Ros700.png)

You're starting with Cornelius and Valerius. 0 Faction cash. Together their Oratory skills mean you control 5 votes in the Senate. Their total Influence is 10. Youíve got enough influence to trigger your knightsí special ability (but almost no one starts with any knights, you included). The snapshot should show your senators stats well enough.

As a recap for you and other players (now or potentially):

Mil = Military. This skill lets you double the effectiveness of an equal number of legions or fleets. So if Cornelius with Mil 4 was leading an Army of 4 Legions, theyíd fight at 4x2=8 power. Under Valerius, with 1 Mil, only one of those Legions would fight at double strength, so the total power would be 3 + (1x2) = 5, not 8. On the other hand, if Cornelius was leading 5 Legions, one of them wouldnít be doubled, so their strength would be 1 + (4x2) = 9, not 10. Mil skill represents logistic and other management factors, so applies (for the game) equally to legions or fleets. (It does not apply to inherent Province strength or provincial militias however. It does apply to Veteran Legions! -- but all those will come later, if we survive that long. ;) )

Ora = Oratory. This mostly tracks how many other generic (invisible) senators will vote with the senator (minimum 1 for the senator himself, of course). It also sometimes affects dice rolls.

Loy = Loyalty. This affects how hard it is to get a senator to move into or out of a Faction. Corny and Val are pretty dang loyal! (They would have made a good Conservative Faction, too.) This early in the game, itís nearly impossible to root out a senator once heís attached to a Faction.

The picture of a stack of coins just shows where the personal treasury of each senator will eventually be. They usually start with none (including all these senators), although sometimes there are inherited chips.

Pop = Popularity. Almost every Senator and Statesman starts with 0, which is neutral. This can go up or down, to a limit of 9. It mainly affects certain dice rolls. If we get a Populist Faction player, it also affects how many extra votes his senators can count on!

Inf = Influence. This is the ultimate scoring factor of the game, and also affects dice rolls and some other things. For I. I., as the Aristocrat player, having more Influence than any other Faction triggers his main knight special ability! -- doubling their votes on any topic pro or con! Influence is the main way a senator might win the game for his Faction alone, too, by being appointed or elected Consul for Life; but that wonít be a factor until the Early Provincial Era starts.

Last but not least, the Knights are not-quite-totally-generic invisible senators who act as minions for your Senators or Statesmen. Each knight always brings at least 1 extra vote for his senator; and also at least 1 extra Talent of income. Knights are heavily connected into the special abilities of most factions, which usually (but not always) involve doubling the voting power of a Factionís knights under various circumstances. I.I.ís knights, as noted, will double their votes on any topic as long as the Aristocrats have the most Influence total.

Moving on more quickly to the other players, after that catchup information.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 17, 2018, 08:41:21 PM
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/122/NgCIMP.png)

Hereís Tripoli as the MILITARIST faction. He was formed by Julius and Manlius. Together their Oratory controls 5 votes, and they have 8 Influence total. Not much more to say about them yet.


(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8708/GRmNK2.png)

The Frog as the PLUTOCRAT faction gets to start with 2 cash in his faction treasury! -- as well as 1 free Knight youíll be able to assign to any senator soon! (Heís the only Faction who gets this starting bonus.) As if that wasnít enough, Fulvius there won the draw for being the first Roman Consul! -- which ticked up his influence a little. (Usually it provides a bigger boost, but Fulvius wonít be Consul for long, just long enough to start the first Senate Phase and deliver the State of the Republic address. More on that later.) Even though heís only a temporary Consul long enough to get the Republic started, heíll always be a ďPrior ConsulĒ (like any other consul), so will be eligible for election to a special office later in the game once that unlocks. He can also be elected Consul again, but no one can be a consul two turns in a row (unless literally all other senators are dead perhaps!)

Anyway, they also control 5 votes right now, and 9 total Influence. But once the Frog assigns his free knight, that will add 1 vote to the total. So heís about to have 6 votes.

Since the Plutocrats control the Consul, they also have the Highest Ranking Available Officer in Rome, and so will get to go first on any cycle of players around the table. This will be relevant very soon.


(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3803/WPNTwH.png)

ArizonaTank gets to be the CONSERVATIVE FACTION, with Fabius and Furius down there. Together they also control 5 votes (this tie across all the Factions is a little unusual even at the start of the game), but only 8 Influence.

Thatís enough to chew over for tonight, and perhaps to inspire some questions.

Tomorrow afternoon, I hope to explain the choices each player can make at this time. (There arenít many, but theyíre important.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 07:02:14 AM
So, each Player now gets to make a few choices for Turn Zero.

Since none of these choices affect anyone else, you'll be making them simultaneously, which for asynch means any of you can post your choices whenever you want, in any Player order. You can also change your mind and do something else, up to the point where I start Turn One with the mortality chit draw. (Obviously you can't make any revealed Faction cards secret again. ;) But you can take them back and save them for later.)

You can also each make your choices themselves in any order -- this time. (Often choices have to be made in a specific order, and I'll tell you when.)

Everyone's choices boil down to two things. All choices here cost nothing. (Most of your choices in the game will cost nothing. I'll let you know if there's a cost to pay; if I don't you can assume it's free.)


CHOICE 1.) You can now play any VALID Concessions and/or Statesmen from your Faction cards, onto any of your senators. I will have explained to each of you already, by p-mail, which of your cards are valid right now (and which have to be saved until later, and generally until when, and why.)

Concessions are always played directly onto any senator, and any senator has no limit to the Concessions he can have. However, most Concessions are locked this early in the game. The only unlocked Concessions are Harbor Fees and Mining. Locked Concessions don't "exist" yet in the game, but if you hold onto the card you'll get first dibs once it does exist. Concessions give your senator extra income during certain events, usually the Revenue Phase.

You can also play any Statesmen to your Faction as long as someone else doesn't already have a senator from his Family in play.

If you've got his family in play, you'll upgrade that family Senator into the Statesman -- basically revealing that this guy was ta-daaaa this Statesman all along.

If no one has his family in play yet, your Statesman just becomes a distinctly new senator for your Faction; and if his Family ever shows up before he dies, you'll pick up his family underneath his card automatically.

There's a special Statesman in the Latin Era who's a generic military leader: all he really does is give one of your Senators a +2 buff to military skill (5 max).

This choice is optional. You can wait until later. The next time you'll be able to play Statesmen and/or Concessions, will be in the final Phase of Turn One.

No other Faction cards can be played yet.

If you can't play a card, you don't have to reveal you can't play it. Just say you aren't playing any cards, or you're only playing X and holding the other one.


CHOICE 2: Each of you must choose one of your own senators as your Faction Leader. This is mandatory. (If you only had one senator left, he'd be Faction Leader by default.) If you can and do play an independent Statesman senator, you can make him your Leader; or any other senator in your Faction, no restrictions.

A Faction Leader gets at least three benefits (for as long as he remains the Leader): he earns an extra 2 Talents during the Revenue Phase (coming up soon); he can't be Persuaded to join any other Faction by any means; and if he dies, you'll get his family card back immediately as a fresh new vanilla Senator (no chips yet) to be the new Faction Leader. Note that a Statesman still dies and leaves the game permanently, but as long as he has his associated family then you'll get the family card back as a new vanilla Senator. If he has no family support yet, he just dies, and you'll have to appoint another of your senators as Leader immediately.

During your round in the Forum Phase (coming soon), you can simply declare any of your current senators the new Faction Leader. Until that time each turn, though, you're committed to that senator being your Leader.


The Plutocrat Faction gets a 3rd unique choice: you must assign one free Knight to any one of your senators. This is mandatory but there are no drawbacks, only benefits. One of your senators will get a minion, for free, before anyone else!  :D Your chosen senator will get the normal 1 more vote in the Senate (per knight), and because you're the Plutocrats each of your knights, including this one, will earn 2 extra Talents instead of 1 extra during the Revenue Phase (coming up soon).


So the two (or for the Frog, three) choices are pretty simple to implement: "I'm playing this or these cards; and/or holding my other cards. And (for the Plutocrats) I'm assigning my free knight to this senator. And I'm making this senator my Faction Leader." The end.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 07:11:36 AM
Oh, in case someone is wondering: your Faction Leader is a post completely independent of any other office in the Republic, and in fact doesn't count technically as a major or minor Office. There's only one Office in the game right now, the Roman Consul, currently held by Fulvius of the Plutocrats. The Frog can make him Faction Leader, or any of his other senators -- this has no effect on his office at all, or vice versa.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on September 18, 2018, 09:51:28 AM
I will play Camillus
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 10:36:40 AM
Who will be your Faction Leader?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on September 18, 2018, 03:35:21 PM
I will play Appius, assign him a knight and make him my faction leader. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 04:38:40 PM
Here are EthelFrog's results:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2838/OOE7Mf.jpg)

His Claudian senator turns out (by playing this Statesman from his family) to be the famous Appius Claudius, changing the stats to Mil 1, Ora 5, Loy 9, Pop 0 (neutral), and Inf 5. Appius sucks at combat management, but he can still prevent Standoff or Disaster rolls if he's sent to fight the 1st Latin War. Also, as long as he's alive (and not in Captivity), he adds +2 to Repopulation Rolls, which helps Families raise up new Senators after their prior scions have died. (We'll see more of this later in the game, after we've had some deaths in the Families. ;) )

With Appius now in play (taking over the position from the generic Claudian Senator), and with the free knight now assigned (to Appius), the Plutocrats now have a tally of 8 normal votes, and a total influence of 10, tying with I.I.'s Aristocrat Faction (and negating I.I.'s special knight ability for now).


Oh, also: all Players have a little pawn the color of their Faction, which designates the declared Faction Leader visually. So that's why Appius has a green pawn now.

I'll adjust for AzTank's card play in a minute.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 18, 2018, 04:43:43 PM
I'll play Quinctius Cincinnatus as well as the Harbour Fees concession on Valerius. Cornelius will be my Faction Leader.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 05:06:07 PM
AzTank plays a Statesman from his hand, morphing his generic Furian Senator into the historical Marcus Furius Camillus.

(Note to self, find photo of Riddick and composit that onto Cam's card...  :D )

This changes his stats to Mil 5 (the best natural Mil score); Ora 3, Loy 8, Pop 0, and Inf 5. Aside from being a logistical genius, Cami will also void Disasters and Standoffs if he gets deployed in a war against the nearby city of Veii (Rome's first major competitor, more on them later.)

This doesn't change the Conservatives' normal vote tally, but does push their total Influence up to 10, tying the Plutocrats and the Aristocrats.

AzTank has yet to choose a Faction Leader. (So you can see the little brown pawn standing on the normal vote counter.)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/639/EoIB2W.jpg)


I'll catch up with I.I.'s choices next.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 05:34:11 PM
I.I. played both of his starting Faction cards, providing a nice couple of rule illustrations along the way!

This time I'll post his table before commenting:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6526/Ufvd8O.jpg)

You'll notice his Statesman, Quinctius Cincinnatus, didn't morph anyone. That's because Cinc's family (#18 the Quincies) doesn't exist politically yet: their card isn't out on the table anywhere.

If someone else had already picked up a generic Quinctius for their Faction, I.I. would not have been able to play Cincinnatus (yet). If I.I. already had him, he'd morph into Cinccinnatus. But since the family doesn't exist anywhere yet, Cinc comes into play as a 3rd senator for the Aristocrats! (...a little ironically, since their family is late enough to be listed as #18. But also anti-ironically, since their ancestor was Cincinnatus, after which they didn't do much politically for a while!)

As you can see, Cinc has stats of Mil 5, Ora 2, Loy 9, Pop 1 (!), and Inf 1. He doesn't have much Oratory skill and less influence, but he kicks ass strategically, and he's one of the only Statesmen who start out with more than neutral Popularity!

He also voids Disasters and Standoffs for two separate Wars, the Aequian and the Volsician. And while his Oratory and Influence are weak, they still contribute enough to kick the Aristocrats back up to Influence 11 (which would activate their knight special voting ability) and tick up their normal votes in the Senate to 7.


I.I. also drew, and played, one of the only two currently-unlocked Concessions: the Harbor Fees (representing Rome's port colony of Ostia at the mouth of the Tiber river). As long as Valerius is alive (and doesn't get investigated for corruption successfully, which no one has to worry about for a while), he'll pick up an extra 3 Talents (and a minor corruption marker) automatically during every Revenue Phase (which is coming up soon). Concessions can never be permanently lost as long as the Republic stands; once they're freed up (or destroyed and then respawned), the Senate can vote for another senator to have them.

And as I.I. noted, Cornelius is now his Faction Leader.


I.I. and the Frog have fully played their rounds; AzTank mostly but you still need to declare a Faction Leader. We haven't heard publicly from Tripoli yet on either of his choices, but this Phase is moving along nicely (considering we're in the tutorial).  O0
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on September 18, 2018, 05:35:59 PM
I choose the new guy, Camillus to be the faction leader
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 05:40:08 PM
Done! -- mod updated.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on September 18, 2018, 06:08:25 PM
I will play the Military Leader/ Statesman onto Manlius, giving him a military rating of 5 (3 +2 for the military leader card).  Manlius is my faction leader.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 07:13:44 PM
And there's the Latin Era Military Statesman. (This is unique to the Latin Era; all other Statesmen are specific historical characters.)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/1295/40GG9B.jpg)

The Militarists retain their normal vote count and their total Influence.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 18, 2018, 07:30:05 PM
This ends Turn Zero: quite a few new concepts to think about, but the choices themselves were pretty simple.

Henceforth each Turn will have seven Phases, some of which are fully automatic. I'll see if I can run the Mortality Phase and the first segment of the Revenue Phase tonight, but I may not be able to give reports about results until tomorrow afternoon.

During the second section of the Revenue Phase, everyone will go around the table in clockwise order, starting with the Plutocrats (because they've got the Highest Ranking Available Officer currently), and make (probably only) two pretty simple choices about how to manage your cash so far. As the game unlocks and your Factions become more wealthy, more options for the Revenue Phase will unlock.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 19, 2018, 04:51:54 PM
TURN ONE -- MORTALITY PHASE
---------------------------

The Mortality Phase is fully automatic, so I only have to report results.

It amounts to only two events. The first is the Activation of (some) Immanent Wars, but there arenít any right now.

The second is drawing a family chit from what is sometimes affectionately nicknamed ďthe death bagĒ, because usually chits are drawn to see if anyone dies -- and not only in this phase! (It does have other uses, like randomly assigning the first Roman Consul, which weíve done already.)

This turn, someone from Family 24 died. But they arenít politically active yet, so no effect.

The end, moving on!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 19, 2018, 04:56:56 PM
TURN TWO -- REVENUE PHASE
-------------------------

This Phase each turn has three segments (at least in asynch, where Iíve ported a few around to make things easier for players and for me). The first and third are fully automatic.

In the first segment, I generate all the automatic revenue for each Faction, which Iíll report as we go through the second segment.

In the second segment, each player in turn around the table, starting with the HRAOís player, makes several necessary and optional choices for managing your cash. Early in the game this amounts to only two fairly simple choices, but others unlock as your Faction grows more wealthy, and as the gameís history progresses.

Since weíre in the tutorial section of the game, Iíll discuss or remind about cash locations. Location 1 is the umpireís bank, which has infinite cash (but I canít use it for myself or to help anyone).

Location 2 is the Republicís Treasury. This is whence Rome pays its bills. You should assume any expense to the Republic must be paid from here, unless I say otherwise. All players will LOSE THE GAME (normally) if Rome has to pay an expense from 0 or less cash.

Location 3 is each Factionís Treasury. This is used for various purposes which Iíll talk about as we get to them, but early in the game these are few and not very important (yet). Very roughly speaking itís money players give each other directly, and for use in some limited emergencies specific to Factions -- not for Republic emergencies! (In the board game, this money is semi-secret, but not for asynch: I'm reporting it all publicly.)

Location 4 is each senatorís Personal Treasury. This money is kept on your senatorsí cards. Only that senator can spend that money. It also makes senators more difficult to move into a new Faction from wherever they are -- until they spend their personal cash, of course. ;)

At this point in the game, no senator has any cash (although that will change for the guy who got the Mining Concession early!); and the only Faction (player) with any cash is Ethel the Frog, because heís the Plutocrats and theyíre good at that kind of thing.  :))
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 19, 2018, 05:03:48 PM
Weíll start with the Plutocrats first, since one of the Frogís senators is the (straw) Roman Consul, thus the highest ranking available official (the HRAO). The order clockwise afterward will be AzTankís Conservatives; I.I.ís Aristocrats; and then last (this turn) will be Tripoliís Militarists.

Ethel, hereís your accounting:

Starting cash: 2
Personal cash: +0
(each senatorís personal cash is temporarily gathered up in the Faction total)
From Faction Leader: +3
Total from the other one senator: +1
(each other senator contributes 1 Talent)
Total from all Knights: 1 knight x 2 Plutocrat ability = +2
New Faction total: 8 cash.

You now have two choices to make (as will each player in their round), in this order:

1.) How much cash will you keep in your Faction treasury, and how much will you disburse back to each senator?

2.) Will any of your senators contribute to the Republicís treasury from their personal cash, and if so how much? (Note: this cannot be done from Faction cash!)


Some points of consideration, for everyone as well as for the Frog: Rome currently has 30 cash, and will soon have another 30, minus 4 total cash for Legion upkeep (2 x 2 legions), minus 10 cash for the one Active War. If nothing else happens, Rome will have 46 cash at the end of the Revenue Phase. Raising more Legions to Active costs 10 talents each, later during the Senate Phase. (Once active they cost 2T each turn, here in the Revenue Phase's third segment.) There are a number of bad historical events on the way, and sometime random generic bad events may pop up. Under normal circumstances, if Rome tries to pay a cost with 0 or less cash, EVERYONE LOSES!

On the other hand, and this is super-important: as long as a Plutocrat senator is the HRAO, the highest ranking official currently in Rome (not off at War, or Governing a Province, or Captured), public confidence in Romeís ability to pay its bills will immunize the Republic from shattering under a deficit expense. In other words, right now, since the Frog's Fulvuis is the Consul (and still in Rome itself), the Players cannot lose the game by Rome going bankrupt.

There are some obvious and also subtle implications from this which yíall will have to figure out together in the Senate phase as the game goes along...

Another consideration everyone should keep in mind is that if you want to persuade a knight later (during the Forum phase) to be a minion for one of your senators, the basic chance is 1 out of 6, which improves +1 for each Talent your persuading senator personally contributes toward the bid. So it costs 5 Talents to be 100% sure of getting a knight. But only the persuading senator can spend that cash! -- it canít come from another senator, nor from the Faction cash. (And senators can only persuade knights to be their own minions, not someone else's.)

Lastly, a senator can contribute any amount in his possession to the Republic, but will only earn 1 influence from donating 10 or more Talents. (2 or 3 Inf from other levels but those are impossible right now.)

So again, to the Frog: youíve got 8 Talents in your Faction. First, give how much to whom (keeping how much in your Faction bank); and second, give how much to Rome from which if any senators? The first choice is mandatory (although default is keeping all cash in the Faction Treasury, but then your senators canít use it). The second choice is optional.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 19, 2018, 05:11:55 PM
The other players can be pre-planning your decisions, but can't announce them until your round has arrived, in the order given: the Frog, then AzTank, then I.I., then Tripoli.

AzTank, you started with 0 faction cash; none of your senators had any personal cash; and with 2 senators and no knights yet your group generated 3+1=4 new cash. So new total faction cash is 4.

Same is true for Tripoli (whom I'm reporting out of order for topical convenience).

Since I.I. has three senators, they generated 3 + 1 + 1 new cash, and one your senators, Valerius, has the Mining Concession, which now triggers allowing him to contribute 3 more cash (and giving him a minor corruption mark, which won't mean anything this Turn). New total thus being 8 cash.

(All cash units are Talents, or more strictly speaking talentons of silver, but it's easier for me to type "cash".)

You must wait your round around the table, though, to announce your choices. Ethel won't be back until late tonight (Wed 19th), so you may not be able to 'move' until tomorrow. Just check back occasionally.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 20, 2018, 05:05:34 AM
the Frog accidentally posted the Plutocrat move to the info thread, so I'm reposting here:

Sorry for the delay. 

I will give each Senator 2, and they will not contribute to the republic treasury.   (You have indicated that the republic treasury can go negative without problem as long as I am in charge, so I see no need to throw any money away.  Plus the treasury seems to have money.)

So, to clarify, each senator gets 2 cash, thus your Faction Treasury now equals 8-2-2=4.

AzTank for the Conservative Faction is up next, with 4 Faction cash.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on September 20, 2018, 12:35:00 PM
I will give each senator 1 each.

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 20, 2018, 01:35:45 PM
I.I. next -- thanks to your three senators, and one of them having the Mining Concession, you have 8 Talents in your Faction Treasury.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 20, 2018, 02:20:10 PM
3 to Cornelius, 1 to the other two.

None to the Republic. Let the plebs pay!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 20, 2018, 02:25:41 PM
That's the spirit!  <:-)

Tripoli up last, with 4 Talents in his Faction. Disburse!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 20, 2018, 03:25:05 PM
While we're waiting for Tripoli's brief move: next up will be the 3rd Revenue segment, which again is totally automatic, and which I'll run in the background. This will report the Republic's own income and expenditures, which this early in the game is simple to calculate: we already know (I'm pretty sure, but I'll check the rules again) that the Republic will go from 30 Talents + 30 income - 10 for the War - 4 for the 2 Active Legion upkeep, to 46 Talents. Plus any senatorial contributions, but as long as a Frogman stays the highest ranking available officer that will stave off any financial disasters until next turn.

After this Phase ends, the Forum Phase begins. Each player will play a round again, in the same order around the table, currently the Frog's Plutocrats first and Tripoli's Militarists last.

During each round, I'll draw one card for each player from the current scenario deck, the Latin Era, which I semi-randomly set up (along with the other Era decks) at the start of the game. These cards generate the history of the game, and you can expect to go through many historical events (but not necessarily in the exact historical order.)

Very basically speaking, if you draw a red-text card, that's a "Faction" card and I'll give it to you face down on any screenshots screenshot, and p-mail you privately about what you drew, and when and how you're allowed to use it. I'll announce publicly that you did draw a Faction card, and then I'll talk about your available choice options for this Phase. (There aren't many this early in the game.)

If it's a black-text card, I'll play that publicly to the Forum, and immediately implement any effects, and explain what's going on, before talking about your available choice options.

Another possibility is that you roll a random event and no scenario draw at all. This also will get played to the Forum publicly and I'll implement the effects and explain what's going on before going to your choice options this phase.

This will happen for each player.

However, the game is set up so that at least 6 rounds will be played, as if there are at least 6 players. What happens then, will be that any players with Faction cash still available will be allowed to bid once (in order around the table) on playing each extra round. That means an extra chance at drawing a scenario card (or a random event); and also an extra opportunity to make those choices again, some of which can only be done once per round otherwise. So you might try to persuade another knight to join one of your senators as a minion; and you'd get another chance to persuade a senator to join your Faction, even if you tried that already on your prior round.

This is a powerful ability. And it's a consideration for keeping some Faction cash handy (although most of your Forum choices will involve spending your senators' personal cash. ;) ) Moreover, if no one bids, then whoever controls the current HRAO will automatically win control of the extra round(s)! -- but the flip side is that the HRAO's Faction must bid at least 1 Talent, if there's any remaining in the Faction Treasury. (He'll still win if no one bids, even if he's broke.) This is a key advantage, in smaller games (like ours currently), to having one of your senators as the HRAO.

I'll remind everyone about this again when we get to it, but since you'll be each playing a Forum round soon I thought I should mention it now while we're waiting.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on September 20, 2018, 07:02:38 PM
Sorry for the delay.  I had an unexpected trip out of town.  I will disburse my talents equally to my two senators (2 each).  None  to Rome
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 20, 2018, 07:40:48 PM
As noted, the 3rd segment of the Revenue Phase this Turn simply ends with the usual Latin Era Turn One net Republic total of 46 Talents (since no one contributed).

After this, things will heat up.  :knuppel2:

Here's a quick snapshot overview before the Forum Phase starts.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4834/YEwyCT.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 20, 2018, 08:44:00 PM
TURN ONE -- FORUM PHASE
-----------------------

The Plutocrats hold the HRAO senator (Fulvius the Roman Consul), so the Frog will start the round again.

To draw a card players roll a 2d6. On a total of 7 youíll re-roll more dice for a random event; but the Plutocrats roll 8, so itís a scenario card. (I wonít report actual totals henceforth unless someone asks how and why sometimes itís a scenario and sometimes a random event.)

The Frog draws the next active political family, the Acilians! Notice this (like all family Senators) is a black-text card, so itís a Forum card, being played publicly to the Forum.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4240/ckPYjP.jpg)

This family is pretty meh to be honest -- they donít even have a famous historical Statesman in the deck! (Which you can tell by the lack of brackets around their family number). But even a meh senator can be a game saver (or game winner) if played cleverly. Heíll hang out in the Forum (along with Junius Brutus), waiting for someone to convince him to join their Faction. (Brutus will join anyone who picks up Family #10, the Junii, but they aren't active yet.)

Ethel now gets to make one or more or all the following choices, once this round, in any order you prefer.

1.) Persuade a senator to join your faction. You must use one of your senators in Rome, but any (non-Captive, non-Leader) senator can be your target. You can try going after the new Senator Acilius. Your 2d6 roll will have to be LESS THAN OR EQUAL TO the sum of your persuading senatorís Inf + Ora stats, minus the targetís Loyalty (minus another 7 if heís already in a Faction), minus any personal cash of his, plus any Bribe your senator may give him, but minus any Bribe other Factions (from their Faction Treasuries) may give him. (He keeps all bribery cash in any case, making him that much harder to persuade next time -- but bringing this cash into the Faction if you win!) Also, if you roll too high a total (>=10), you automatically fail anyway from trying too hard! (This by the way makes a sure bet impossible for persuading senators, which keeps players from unbeatably sniping each otherís senators away late in the game when cash is plentiful.)

As you can see by comparing his snapshot to your senators...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6876/cE9izz.jpg)

 if Claudius tried youíd need to roll less than or equal to 10 (5 Ora + 5 Inf) - 7 (Acís loyalty) = 3. In other words youíd have to roll snake eyes, or a 1 and a 2. Thatís 3 out of 36 possible rolls, or 1 chance in 12. If you add Appiusí 2 Talents as a bribe, you can improve that to <=5, which is better but still not even near 50/50. Fulvius will have a signifiantly worse chance! -- heíd need all his 2 cash just to have any chance at all (with a roll of 2, snake-eyes, 1:36th of a chance.)

The other Players should keep this in mind, too when itís your round soon. This early in the game, itís hard to persuade a Senator to join you.

2.) Persuade a knight. This is a lot easier: >=6 on a 1d6, which is naturally 1 in 6 chance, and it improves 1 point for each Talent you contribute. (Except you wonít get control of those Talents back if you win! -- theyíre gone straight to the bank.) So if any of your senators had 5 Talents, he could pick up a knight without even bothering to roll. You might still want to try, even with your chosen senator donating 1 or 2 Talents (33 or 50 percent chance to win respectively). Thereís no limit to the number of knights in the game, or which your senators can pick up, but you only get one chance per Forum Phase round.

3.) Choose a new Faction Leader. This is free, and always automatically succeeds: you just declare it.

The choices are totally optional; as will be a few other optional choices unlocking here later in the game.

In short, you can (in any order, nothing mandatory): choose a new leader; try to persuade a senator to join you (but Acilius in the Forum has the only distant chance right now, and if you fail it makes him harder later); or try to persuade a knight to join one of your senators.

Remember, your chosen senator makes the persuasion attempt; and your persuading senator pays for any bribery from his personal cash.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 20, 2018, 08:48:42 PM
If you want to make the rolls yourself here on the forum, by the way, you can type {roll}1d6{/roll}, except using [square brackets] instead of {fancy ones}, and putting the type of die-roll in the middle.

Remember however that if you do decide to go for the Senator, all the other players in order around the board get one chance each to add Counter-bribes (from their Faction Treasuries). Although you'll then get a 2nd and last chance to add any more cash from your persuading senator's personal cash (if any remains, and never from your own Faction cash).

Other players can't counter-bribe your attempts to persuade a knight, however.

Also, Players can't simply follow the Frog after he's done, since I've first got to roll and draw cards or events for each player going around the board. (But you can be sort-of planning ahead.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on September 21, 2018, 04:01:56 PM
Ok.  Claudius will try without spending any money, and will hope for the snake eyes. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 21, 2018, 05:56:44 PM
It's Fulvius who would need snake-eyes. Appius Claudius would also win on a total of 3: 10 (5 Ora + 5 Inf) - 7 (Acís loyalty) = 3 or less.

We'll try the forum dice roller:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 3, 6, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 21, 2018, 05:57:54 PM
Didn't work, but you didn't lose anything either.

Did you want one of your senators to try for a minion? And/or change Leaders?

Note that these can be done in any order, and can even be announced all at once since any bribes for one purpose wouldn't be used for another -- unless you won bribing the Senator!

So when it comes other players' rounds, they can just announce all their choice attempts at once (after I announce what card or event happened and resolve that first). It'll save a little time and effort.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 22, 2018, 09:28:47 AM
Also, in case I haven't emphasized this enough: knights are, in my estimation, the single most cost-effective power in the game. Even if you spend 5 Talents making 100% sure you pick up each of your knights, they'll still earn their keep within 5 turns (unless your senator dies, or you throw your knights away to harvest a one time extra cash bonus off them), and then they're just gravy.

Plus they always bring one extra vote per knight for your Faction, on any topic (unless the Neutralist player is neutralizing them occasionally). And (with the Faction upgrades I introduced) most Players have activist knights who will bring 2 instead of 1 extra vote (the minion and a friend of his who isn't your minion) under various conditions.

And there is no limit to how many knights your senators can have. There's only a limit to how often you can try for a knight: usually once per Turn, during your round of the Forum Phase.

Players should always try for at least one more knight, for some senator, during your Forum round, even if you spend no extra cash to try it. 1:6 chance for a free knight isn't amazing, but it isn't terrible either. Personally I would have an eye toward saving up and distributing cash specifically to pick up a new knight each turn, unless I absolutely needed that cash for some other plan.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on September 23, 2018, 09:34:44 AM
Oh.  So, I still have the option of trying for a knight?  If the option is open, I will do so.  Using the senator that has the highest chance.  If I need to spend money to affect it, and it is two dice, I would pay to the point where I need to roll an 8 or less on 2 dice.  And, in that regard, the money would first come from teh general treasury, if that is an option.  If I am requesting this too late, that's fine too.  I take it from your post that all of the others can announce their intent in this regard as well at this point.  I don't see any posts from them but am not confident that this web site updates properly. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 23, 2018, 11:49:36 AM
No, I think they were just waiting on you, to see if you were finished.

The money can't come from the Faction treasury; it can only come from the senator who is trying to persuade the knight to join as his minion. But there isn't much, this early in the game, for your senators to spend cash on anyway, so knights are a good bet.

It's a 1d6, not 2d6, which makes all results equally probable. But that's good for you in this case, because it means you only need to spend 2 Talents to make your odds 50/50 -- in the sense you were asking about, it means with only 2 cash your spread of results will be from 3 to 8 total, and you only need 6 or more to win.

No stats factor into rolling for knights, so your senators each have an equal chance. In your case, there's no particular benefit to trying to concentrate your minions onto one senator, so since Appius already has a knight, I'll roll for Fulvius.

(By contrast, Tripoli with the Militarists should take note that your knights act as headquarter expansions for your senators on campaign, allowing your senators to more effectively manage larger numbers of fleets and/or legions. So it does make more sense for you to concentrate your knights into one senator. Although there's a risk of you losing all his knights if he dies, and of course if he takes them on campaign then you can't use those knights for their normal +1 voting buffs in the Senate. This game has all kinds of crazy subtle political strategy...  :smitten: )

I'll do the roll in the forum next.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 23, 2018, 11:52:04 AM
In effect, Fulvius is spending his 2 Talents to broaden the success range of a 1d6 roll to 50%. 4 or higher wins him a minion. His cash goes to the bank regardless. (But a Plutocrat knight will earn back those 2 Talents next turn, and after that everything will be gravy for as long as Fulvius survives.)

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 2, total 2[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 23, 2018, 12:12:17 PM
Rolled a 2, needed a 4, so no knight this round for the Plutocrats.

The Frog doesn't seem to want to change his Faction Leader yet, so we're on to AzTank and the Conservative Faction.

Az rolls for a Scenario card instead of a random Event, and draws a red-text Faction card, which he adds to his hand.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3311/I3sWd4.jpg)

I'll be p-mailing him in a minute to explain what he drew, and when he can play it.

Your choices are the same; you can do none, any, or all of them, in any order you prefer -- they're all optional.

1.) Use one of your senators to try persuading another senator to join your Faction. The only possible target right now is the new family Senator Acilius (see prior snapshot for his stats). Your only senator who might possibly succeed is your Statesman Camilus, but his Ora + Inf stats only add up to 8 against Ac's loyalty of 7, so you'd need to roll a total of 1 on 2d6 which is impossible -- but Camilus only has 1 Talent in his personal treasury. If he adds that as a bribe (and if none of the other players counter-bribe you from their combined Faction Treasuries!) then you've still only got an absolutely minimum 1:36 chance (rolling snake eyes). Personally I don't recommend it.

2.) Choose one of your senators to try to persuade a knight to join as his minion. Each of your senators has only 1 Talent, so your best chance is no better than 33% (5 or 6 out of 1d6.) You should however still try for one of your senators even if you don't spend any cash.

3.) Choose to continue with Camillus as your Faction Leader, or switch to Fabius. (This always costs nothing and succeeds automatically.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on September 24, 2018, 07:48:43 AM
I'll try for a knight with Fabius, keeping Camilus as faction leader.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 08:43:34 AM
[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 4, total 4[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 08:58:16 AM
Rolled a four, which fails. You didn't specify you were risking cash, so I won't deduct Fabius' (which wouldn't have won anyway).

I'm at the shop so I can't roll-and-draw I.I's card, but you're up next, I.I. The card/event draw probably isn't going to affect your ability to make the same choices, unless it spawns another family Senator with even less loyalty than Acilius (which isn't very likely).

The same is true with Tripoli, so if y'all want to send in your choices I'll process them in order.

To recap: you can roll 2d6 to try to pick up Acilius, but honestly this early in the game I wouldn't bother trying. You'll have to spend what little cash your senators have got, to even possibly succeed, and the odds will still be ludicrous. You're better off spending that cash elsewhere.

You can (and I recommend you should) choose one of your senators to try to attract a minion. Spending your senator's personal cash on this is a much better bet, but so would be saving up your cash for a sure bet later. Even if you spend no cash you've still got a 1:6 chance so it isn't unreasonable to try.

And you can switch up your Faction Leader or keep the one you've got.

I'll do the Scenario card draw this afternoon for both of you at once, since again I don't think any result will affect your choices much, and this will help move things along. And for that matter, this Turn it'll be okay if you don't go in order: Tripoli can go before I.I, so just whomever wants to go next. (That's because the only choice which your play-order around the table would affect is going for Acilius, and that's near-or-totally impossible right now.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 24, 2018, 09:15:09 AM
Cornelius will spend his 3 gold to (attempt to) nab himself a client knight. He'll also remain faction leader.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 11:34:30 AM
Needs a roll of 3, 4, 5, or 6 then. 1 or 2 fails. 66% chance of success.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 1, total 1[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 11:36:42 AM
 :wow: Harsh! A reasonable try, though!

Tripoli's Militarists last.

(Again, I'll do both your card/event rolls this afternoon after work.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 04:24:41 PM
Okay, I.I. rolled a 7, generating our first random event of the game; and then on a 3d6 he rolled a 10, for...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4912/grKcFu.jpg)

Rome loses 10 Talents, down to 36 cash now. Until the event disappears from the Forum (next turn), Persuasion rolls add +1 (which makes persuasion to join a faction a little easier!) but all other rolls subtract 1. (I'm unsure "initiative" rolls are even a thing anymore in this edition of Republic of Rome, but the prequel expansion was made back during the original edition. I'll keep it in mind if we get to an initiative roll, but my massive rule flowsheet doesn't mention initiative at all.)

I.I.'s persuasion roll would still fail at 1+1=2, unfortunately: he needed 4.

Tripoli could keep this in mind for his persuasion rolls however!


Tripoli rolls a scenario card, and draws a Faction card which he puts face down on his sideboard:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1825/upVRnx.jpg)

I'll be sending him a p-mail soon to explain what he drew and when he can use it.

Tripoli's Militarists are up for trying to persuade Acilius (I strongly advise against it); trying to persuade a knight for one of his senators (I always advise for this, but spend cash carefully); and/or assigning a new Faction Leader.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on September 24, 2018, 04:36:36 PM
Julius will roll to get a knight, and spend 2 talents to increase the odds
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 04:42:16 PM
While we're waiting for Tripoli's Militarists, the rest of you can be pondering whether you intend to bid any Faction cash (not from senators personal treasuries) on the 5th and/or 6th round.

Tripoli won't be able to because he has no cash.

The Frog (who will start the bid) has 4, AzTank has 2, and I.I. (who will end the bid on each extra round) has 3 cash.

However, Ethel, who has the HRAO senator, must bid at least 1 Talent for each extra round if he has any cash remaining. And if no one bids at all, the HRAO's player automatically wins. So if y'all do nothing, he'll get two extra rounds and go down 2 Faction cash to 2 remaining.

That doesn't mean he'll necessarily get two more Faction cards for his hand, of course. He might draw black-text cards, played publicly to the Forum (moving the history of the Republic along), or he might roll random Events; and either of those will usually give everyone the same crisis or opportunities. But whoever wins those extra rounds DOES get extra shots at persuading a knight to join one of your senators! (And extra shots at persuading Acilius if you want to take them this early, which I don't recommend.)

You can make your bids on Round 5 while we're waiting on Tripoli, if you want -- it won't affect his choices. The Frog must declare his bid first (minimum 1 talent).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 04:43:17 PM
Julius will roll to get a knight, and spend 2 talents to increase the odds

The Bad Omen event will add another 1 to your roll, so in effect 3 or better will win.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 5, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 04:50:24 PM
Clear win! -- I deducted Julius' 2 Talents, and added 1 knight. The Militarists normal votes go up to 6. Julius' Mil stat goes up to 5, thanks to one of the Militarist's special abilities.

This ends Tripoli's play for the Phase, since he doesn't have any Faction cash to bid on rounds 5 or 6.

Here's the table and sideboards.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9933/Tjnqov.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 24, 2018, 05:05:33 PM
One question, would the event have made it possible for Cornelius to persuade Acilius on a 2 if I had tried?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 05:23:29 PM
One question, would the event have made it possible for Cornelius to persuade Acilius on a 2 if I had tried?

Ah, good question! {checking}

Cornelius has a combined Ora+Inf of 8, and Acilius a Loyalty of 7, so with no other factors that would need a total of 1, which is impossible, but the Omen random event would add +1 to your 2d6... ah, right, no, your minimum roll would have been 3. (Snake eyes + 1.)

On the other hand, knight persuasions need >=6, so adding +1 to the roll helps that persuasion. But it doesn't help senator Persuasions, it hurts those chances: you've got to roll equal to or under <= the target number. (If you add a bribe, you're increasing your target number, not increasing your roll total -- increasing target number gives you more room for success under your target.) And if you roll too high a total you fail anyway, which the +1 makes a little more likely. (This prevents late game players with high cash and influence from instantly succeeding on any senator persuasion attempt against the senators of other players, which would badly unbalance the late game.)

In short: the Evil Omen helps you a little picking up minions, but hurts you a little picking up senators. Proportionately however, it helps you more on knight persuasions (improving your chances by 1/6th) than it hurts you in senator persuasions (reducing your chances by 1:36.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 24, 2018, 05:34:22 PM
One question, would the event have made it possible for Cornelius to persuade Acilius on a 2 if I had tried?

Ah, good question! {checking}

Cornelius has a combined Ora+Inf of 8, and Acilius a Loyalty of 7, so with no other factors that would need a total of 1, which is impossible, but the Omen random event would add +1 to your 2d6... ah, right, no, your minimum roll would have been 3. (Snake eyes + 1.)

On the other hand, knight persuasions need >=6, so adding +1 to the roll helps that persuasion. But it doesn't help senator Persuasions, it hurts those chances: you've got to roll equal to or under <= the target number. (If you add a bribe, you're increasing your target number, not increasing your roll total -- increasing target number gives you more room for success under your target.) And if you roll too high a total you fail anyway, which the +1 makes a little more likely. (This prevents late game players with high cash and influence from instantly succeeding on any senator persuasion attempt against the senators of other players, which would badly unbalance the late game.)

In short: the Evil Omen helps you a little picking up minions, but hurts you a little picking up senators. Proportionately however, it helps you more on knight persuasions (improving your chances by 1/6th) than it hurts you in senator persuasions (reducing your chances by 1:36.)

That distinction slipped my mind, thanks.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 24, 2018, 05:39:42 PM
I'm going to double-check the rulebook, since it seems odd that an Evil Omen would make major senators less likely to join you, but make minor senators more likely to join you. Then again... maybe that makes sense psychologically? More powerful senators become more wary, but less powerful senators look for security in a group? I know that during the final Crisis Era, major senators are a little more likely to auto-fail their persuasions regardless of bribery, and that fits the same idea. Or am I rationalizing a mistake I'm accidentally making...?

{checking} The most recent edition of the living rules doesn't talk about specific Evil Omen effects, except for their effect on high priests (can't have any of those yet), and otherwise "it reduces the total of most rolls", which is true on the card.

The main Evil Omen card mentions further specifications for provincial income factors which don't apply yet (subtracting 1 or 2 from the total cash acquired, not from the roll per se).

I guess the interpretation stands for now: the Omen helps you a little picking up knights, but hurts a little in picking up senators (among other effects).


(See, this is why the rules for the game are infamous.  >:D )
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 25, 2018, 10:07:02 AM
The Frog is having some trouble seeing thread updates for some reason, but he says (by another route) he bids the minimum 1 Talent.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on September 25, 2018, 01:56:26 PM
I figured it out!  I was clicking "next" at the bottom right instead of the various numbers at the bottom left.  I have a lot of reading to do, but I now know where the posts I have been missing went.  :)

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 25, 2018, 02:28:05 PM
I think it's possible to go to your account settings and set the forum to put the newest posts at the top instead of the bottom.

Most of us come to the thread by clicking on links which either take us to the most recent post (requiring us to backtrack to see missed posts), or which take us to the first new post since we last visited the thread. But if you've just got a thread link saved somewhere, it may be going to the same exact place in the thread each time.


Anyway, Aztank up for the Round 5 bid.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 25, 2018, 06:12:32 PM
Okay, I've gone back and researched what "initiative" was, and originally players were assigned any extra rounds by dice rolls. Thus, during Evil Omen periods there wasn't any reason to add or subtract 1 (or 2) from the initiative roll.

As the umpire, I think I'll call an audible here and punt back to the older ruleset for this point of the game. Much of the point to a forum game is that players should be able to leisurely check in to contribute -- but when they do, there ought to be meaningful choices worth their time to check in to see if they should (or even can) play. Bidding on the extra round slows things down too much, I think.

So while I prefer the bidding in principal, and I understand and approve why it was introduced in later game editions, I'm going to just roll dice to assign the extra two rounds henceforth (or unless we pick up more players for the 5th and 6th slot).

The Players can always vote to going back to bidding on extra rounds if you want. Maybe later in the game when you've got more disposable cash and it's a meaningful struggle not to just let the HRAO's Player have them!

Obviously this means AzTank doesn't have to bid next, and the Frog doesn't have to pay 1 Talent.

I'll report results soon.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 25, 2018, 06:15:37 PM
Keeping in mind, I.I. (at the upper left) is Player 1, due to being the Aristocrat Faction, even when he isn't the first player in a round, and then going clockwise around the board...


5th round goes to Player:
[blockquote]Rolled 1d4 : 3, total 3[/blockquote]

and 6th round goes to Player:
[blockquote]Rolled 1d4 : 4, total 4[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 25, 2018, 07:09:00 PM
So, that's the Frog and then AzTank again, to finish out the rounds.

The Frog rolled a Random Event, and then lucked out into Allied Enthusiasm: next turn during the Revenue Phase, the Republic will add an extra 25 Talents income to its Treasury! I've added a nice little copy of the card next to the Republic's Treasury to remind me.  O:-)

AzTank rolled a Scenario Card, and drew a Historical Event: Agrarian Unrest.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9746/6dACZu.jpg)

This represents a drought in Latin Italy in 485 BC which instituted enough public unrest that some populist senators were able to gain political power by pressuring holders of public land to distribute them to non-voting citizens. This wasn't quite the creation of the plebian political groups yet (that would come with the plebian successions) but it was a big step in that direction.

Public land in the early Republic was not held by the state, exactly, but distributed as trusts to leading citizens in the Senate. Worth noting that the Senators were not voted upon by the people at this time, but were brought into the fraternity of the Senate by fellow Senators as an acknowledgement that their families were important enough to be granted the responsibility of shaping the policies of the Republic. The concept was that only the people with the most to lose should have the vote on important matters. Naturally this led to patricians exploiting the non-voting citizens, and so eventually led to public reform as various Senators appealed to the people for soft influence.

In game terms, this one-time historical Event spawns what amounts to a random Drought event, which will add to public Unrest soon, but which goes away in one turn. Unlike most random Events which can have two levels, Droughts can have up to four levels! -- and can be spawned by certain Wars, too.

The Agrarian Unrest also will require the Presiding Magistrate of the Senate to propose a Level I Land Bill for the Senate to Vote on as part of your Mandatory Business this Turn -- which we'll get to later during the Senate Phase.

The card text doesn't say so, but if the Senate does pass a vote for a Land Bill as a result of this event, you'll not only decrease Unrest immediately, but also avoid the bad effects of the two Plebian Successions which will be coming up one of these days! I'll remind players of this when the time comes.

The Frog and AzTank can now make the 5th and 6th round choices, which mostly amount to each of you choosing which senator you want to try for persuading a knight again.

The Frog however can also try to persuade Acilus again with his Statesman Appius Claudius. Appius' 5+5 Ora/Inf stats - Ac's 7 Loyalty, means you need to roll a total of 3 or less on 2d6, but the Evil Omen means the only way to roll even a 3 will be snake eyes. (Rolling a 1 and a 2 would total 4 instead, and lose the attempt.) I don't recommend adding bribery cash to this attempt, but it's still technically possible without cash so won't risk you anything. (You should save the 2 cash for a knight persuasion attempt now or later.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on September 26, 2018, 03:27:04 PM
Ok.  So, I will take the free roll for a 2 for Acilus again, and spend the two cash to persuade a knight.  I am still not clear on the knight procedure.  One of my guys has a Knight, the other doesn't, so I would prefer to have the knight go to the one that doesn't assuming that the odds are the same.  If not, I will take the  highest odds I can get at a cost of up to two cash. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 26, 2018, 04:14:11 PM
Ok.  So, I will take the free roll for a 2 for Acilus again, and spend the two cash to persuade a knight.  I am still not clear on the knight procedure.  One of my guys has a Knight, the other doesn't, so I would prefer to have the knight go to the one that doesn't assuming that the odds are the same.  If not, I will take the  highest odds I can get at a cost of up to two cash.

In the case of persuading a senator, you always want to use your senator with the best odds of picking him up (that's Appius for you right now). But once you get the new senator he just teams up with your Faction, he doesn't serve a prior senator in any way.

In the case of persuading a knight, the knight arrives to serve as a minion to the senator who persuaded him. And senators can't exchange knights around by any means. But persuading a knight is much easier and doesn't depend even slightly on a senator's stats. Appius has no inherent advantage over Fulvius in gaining a new (or another) minion -- but Appius does have an inherent stat advantage (because of his skills) in trying to get another major senator to join your team. But a new senator won't team up with Appius per se; a new knight will team up with his persuading senator as his minion.

(I don't think the game rules call them minions. I just like to.  :coolsmiley: "Knight" may be technically correct sort of, but they don't function much like we think of as "knights". They're just slightly-more-influential minor senators in the Senate.)

The only thing that makes a difference in persuading a minion, is whether you can add some bribery cash from a senator's personal treasury. In that regard, Appius will have an advantage over Fulvius in persuading a(nother) knight to be his minion, because Appius still has 2 cash in his personal treasury, and Fulvius has none.

So Appius is (currently) much the better bet at picking up a second knight. What difference does it make to you if Appius has all your knights instead of spreading them around more evenly? As long as your senators are all in Rome, it makes no difference either way. If Appius dies however, and he has all your knights, then bang! -- they were loyal more to him, not to you, and they go away. Similarly, if the Senate elects Appius as Field Consul (which might well happen), and Appius leaves Rome to go fight a War, the knights go with him and won't be around in the Senate to contribute their votes for the rest of this Turn, nor until Appius comes back, which might not be for several Turns. (Fortunately, senators and their knights earn income wherever they are, and your knights earn double cash, so you'll be getting their special ability wherever they are.)

Next Turn however, during the Revenue Phase, you might decide to redistribute your cash so that Fulvius can have the advantage (or even the certainty, if you can arrange him 5 Talents!) in picking up a knight, so that you're less vulnerable to having your knights disappear upon an unlucky death.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 26, 2018, 04:18:21 PM
So, as noted above, between their relative stats, and the Evil Omen, Appius has the only chance of persuading Acilius to join your Faction, but only if you roll a total of 2 (1 and 1, snake eyes). And you won't risk a bad bet by using Appius' cash on that when he has better uses for it.

That's a 2d6 roll, and you need a 2 total to win. If you lose, you lose nothing, so it's a safe though highly improbable bet.

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 1, 6, total 7[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 26, 2018, 04:21:39 PM
Craps!  ^-^

Appius also has the best chance right now of picking up a(nother) knight, because he has 2 cash which you spend to help bribe.


Normally you need to roll a 6 on a 1d6 to win. With 2 cash helping, you need 4 or more. Thanks to the Evil Omen helping (by making minor senators nervous and wanting more protection), you need a 3 or higher. Only 1 or 2 will lose. Appius will lose his 2 cash either way.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 5, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 26, 2018, 04:28:05 PM
Success! Appius now has 2 knights, and 0 cash.

Plutocrat vote tally goes up 1 to 9.


AzTank's choices, which is really only one choice: which senator do you want to try again for a knight, and if he has cash do you want to spend any to help?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 26, 2018, 04:50:03 PM
While we're waiting for AzTank's choice, let me clarify that this will be the final action of this Phase. Ideally, some number of Turns from now, this will also be where everyone wins the game! -- the final Turn signals during, and ends with, the Forum Phase. (Basically, late in the final deck someone draws the Y'all Win card.  :bd: )

Next up will be the Population Phase, a fully automatic Phase where I'll do some things in the background mostly having to do with public Unrest, and report the results.

After that, will be the Senate Phase: where everyone will decide together, formally or informally, how to deal with Rome's current problems. This is where the voting will happen (if any happens to be needed). This is where most of the Player action happens on each Turn. A new major office will unlock this Turn (currently there's only one, the Roman Consul), and you'll need to vote senators into the various offices (Fulvius cannot stay Consul, though he can be Consul again later), and you'll need to decide whether you want to do anything about the Agrarian Unrest, and how most effectively to put boots to your former king Tarquinius.   :knuppel2:
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on September 27, 2018, 08:44:59 PM
Camillus will try for a knight, spend 1 to help.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 27, 2018, 09:09:25 PM
Camilius sacrifices his last Talent, meaning you can win with a 5 now as well as a 6: a 33% chance for victory.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 2, total 2[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 27, 2018, 09:14:07 PM
Ick! -- the strumpet Fortuna was not appeased.  #:-)

This effectively ends the Forum Phase for Turn One.

Alas, it's 10pm here and time for old me to hit the sack before work tomorrow. There's an eventful weekend in the Republic coming up, though, as I resolve our first Population Phase (a potentially game-ending phase, but there's no worry about that this time), and then introduce the rules for Players to start working your way through dealing with the Republic's current problems in the Senate Phase!

Check back in tomorrow evening (central US time) for the catchup to the first Senate procedures!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 28, 2018, 03:46:01 PM
The Population Phase has several automatic things happening, some of which won't unlock until later.

For now, what happens is that public Unrest goes up 1 point for each Drought Event, and for each Unprosecuted War. So, starting at Unrest 0, + 1 + 1 = 2. (It's impossible to avoid the Unrest going up at least 1 point on Turn One, due to the 1st Latin War being Active and unable to be prosecuted yet.)

Then the Highest Ranking Available Officer convenes and launches the Senate Phase. This Turn, that's Fulvius of the Plutocrats, as Rome's only current officer, the Consul.

As the HRAO going into the Senate Phase, Fulvius becomes the Presiding Magistrate of the Senate -- for now. The PM function tends to shift around at least once per Senate Phase, including this Turn for reasons I'll make clear soon.

The PM opens the Senate by giving a State of the Republic speech. In game terms, this means rolling 3d6, adding the PM's popularity (0 for Fulvius), and subtracting the public Unrest. The total is compared to a table for results.

Let's do this thing! -- Sic ergo agamus aliquid! (per Googlelatin, which I will assume is a little better than pig Latin)

0 (Fulvius popularity) - 2 (Unrest) + 3d6...

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 6, 5, 3, total 14[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 28, 2018, 04:09:15 PM
14-2=12

The people are okay with the speech, no better no worse. You can live with that!

I'll have to leave to go eat soon. Here's where everyone is at, going into the Senate Phase:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9087/oiM5aX.jpg)

I do not recommend assassinating each other until I get back (or this Turn at all)...

Meanwhile, the first Mandatory business is to elect not another Consul, but two Consuls: the Roman Consul and the Field Consul, which office automatically unlocks now in the first Senate Phase.

Any senator present in Rome (which is all of your senators right now) can be one of the Consuls. Each Consul can lead one army to war, although if the Roman Consul ever departs for war then the Senate is automatically adjourned -- thus the distinction between Roman and Field Consuls.

The Republic must have two Consuls (unless only one senator remains in Rome somehow). And the nominees must be nominated together, as a package. For example, Julius as Roman Consul and Cincinnatus as Field Consul. No senator who is currently a Consul going into the Senate Phase can be elected as either Consul (so senators can be Consuls on alternating turns, but not sequential turns.) That means Fulvius cannot be elected to either Consular Office this Turn.

Y'all can discuss among yourselves who you'd like. If you reach a unanimous agreement informally, there's no need to vote. Notice (click to zoom if you need to) what the normal vote tallies are right now: that's what each Player can bring in voting power to this vote. (The only knights on the board yet, don't have vote activist abilities at all, so it's just the normal vote tally.) This vote won't adjust any senator's stats, so again if there's a solid voting bloc majority there's no need to go through the formality to vote.

(Face to face it would be easy to just call the vote and go, but I'm adjusting the process a little to move things along in asynch.)

Formally speaking, only Fulvius (thus his Player, the Frog) can actually propose a nomination on any topic right now, including this one. But beware! -- if the PM gets voted against by all other Players, the PM must either step down as PM (he won't lose his office, just the function) in favor of the next senator in line, or he must accept a -1 hit to his Influence. And at 0 Influence, he can't be PM anymore anyway.

The Frog, as the (current) PM's player, can stop all further discussion by calling for Players to vote, in any order the PM's player prefers.

Technically, a Player's senators don't all have to vote the same (yes, no, or abstain), but as a practical matter that's what usually happens.

Whoever wins the next two Consular offices, will each gain 3 Influence; and the new Roman Consul will take over the Presiding Magistrate duties for the Senate this Turn.

I think that's enough for Players to discuss and act on for now. If you have any questions, let me know!

Keep in mind two things though: first, as long as a Plutocrat senator is the highest available officer still in Rome (not out at war), the Republic cannot lose by expensing under 0 cash. And second, only Consuls (currently) can be sent with armies to war.

(Actually designating an army and leader etc. will be done later in the Senate, but it's something to think about ahead of time perhaps.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 28, 2018, 04:26:02 PM
Let's do this thing! -- Sic ergo agamus aliquid! (per Googlelatin, which I will assume is a little better than pig Latin)

I'm not a Latin expert by any means, but in my experience, Google Translate doesn't really handle it well owing to the language's free word order and complicated word inflections. That string of words is one of the less mangled translations I've seen it offer, but it would literally equate to "thus thus (as in sic semper tyrannis or cogito ergo sum) we should do something/anything". :P
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 28, 2018, 05:46:27 PM
 :2funny:

I wonder why it bothered with any thus-es at all?

Meanwhile, I'll take some updated snapshots of Player sideboards for convenience, so everyone can see the senators on offer.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 28, 2018, 06:12:31 PM
Okay, here's the War that has to be dealt with eventually:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7013/YdLmVh.jpg)

I'll explain some of this in more detail later when I run the Combat Phase (if anyone goes to fight it), but for now what you need to know is that the War plus the Leader (Tarqy) has combat power equal to three Legions, and any Leader (including Tarqy) changes (typically improves) the chances of a Disaster or a Standoff result, which while not outright Defeat for Rome would still be problematic.

Y'all have 2 Active Legions ready for deployment, and another 5 potentially in the manpower pool. A senator's Military skill, remember, allows him to double the effect of X-number of Legions. So if you're only sending 2 Legions to fight, there's no point sending a level 5 leader yet; a 2 skill Leader will get maximum results from your Force.

The Republic has 36 Talents, with a promise from your allies of another 25 next Turn (plus a nominal income of 30, minus 2 for any surviving active Legions, minus 10 if the 1st Latin War doesn't get defeated this Turn.)

Legions cost 10 Talents to raise. You can deploy Legions raised during the same Senate phase.

It's impossible to start fighting against a War without a Consul leading an Army (or Force) up to it. You can send multiple Forces to the same War at the same time, but no Force can have more than one senator leading it (currently, with an important exception later in the game). Multiple Forces at a War must decide among the senators leading them, what order to attack in, or how the Legions will be split between them. (For example if you seriously overpower a war, you might send two strong Forces to attack it, with the first attack led by a Statesman who has the power to ignore Standoff and Disaster rolls, since there can only be one of each of those per War per turn. Consequently if he rolls a Standoff, it wouldn't affect his troops, and the next general would not have to worry about a Standoff result this Turn.)

None of this can be decided or enacted before Mandatory business is concluded (war isn't actually Mandatory business for the Senate!), but electing Consuls will naturally have a bearing on such decisions, so I thought it might be a good idea for Players to be looking ahead to what they can be planning to do with any Consuls you elect.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 28, 2018, 06:16:28 PM
And now the sideboards (which you left-click to toggle bigger), clockwise around the table from Player One (I.I. and his Aristocrat Faction):

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/2074/uNyfc8.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/4540/wtA7Mi.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9338/4hS31e.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9519/qyLdoV.jpg)


In case you're wondering, don't worry about the area labeled "Delayed Transfer" yet. Any cash and/or Faction cards sent from one Player to another, will stop there temporarily until certain Phases allow them to pass through to be received.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 29, 2018, 07:50:58 PM
The Frog was away from his computer today, and still is -- he can read the thread on his phone, sort of, but can't reply to it.

Fortunately he was able to text me by another method, so... um, like an oracle, I guess, I'm able to pass on his messages!  O:-)

His first proposal nominates his other senator, the Statesman Appius Claudius, as the Roman Consul (replacing Fulvius); and nominates Quintius Cincinnatus of the Aristocrats as Field Consul.

Their stats can be seen one post upward, where I zoomed into the Faction sidebars (and left-clicking will zoom again a little). Of particular note is that while Appius is as weak a commander as possible (Mil 1), he does deflect any Standoff or Disaster combat result if he has to go out and lead an army himself. Cinc of course is Mil 5. Also, as long as one of the Frog's senators stays in Rome as the HRAO, you won't have to worry about losing the game going broke! -- which by the way means you can risk spending cash below zero to buff up your army early! But beware that if for some reason his senator isn't HRAO when there's an expense below zero, everyone loses!

Normal vote tallies are Aristocrats 7, Militarists 6, Plutocrats 9, and Conservatives 5.

The Frog calls his own faction to vote first, giving 9 votes in favor.

Next he calls the Aristocrats. The Militarists and the Conservatives will finish out the voting order, but note that if I.I.'s Aristocrats vote in favor then they've got a majority voting block (9+7 = 15, vs 6+5 = 11 potentially against), and there will be no point to finishing out the vote (since in this case voting one way or another carries no special benefits or penalties for senators. This will help move things along to the next proposal, assuming I.I. agrees.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 29, 2018, 07:57:14 PM
The Aristocratic Faction of course consents to this arrangement.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 29, 2018, 08:00:37 PM
That settles the vote with a majority of Senate approval, and I'll make the adjustments.

The Frog already told me what he wants to propose next if Appius remains Roman Consul, so I'll get to that soon.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 29, 2018, 08:52:10 PM
Okay, here's a quick screenshot update -- click to embiggen:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3936/A0URGN.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 29, 2018, 09:06:49 PM
The Aristocrats narrowly retain their Influence lead, but they don't have any knights yet to specially exploit that with their Faction ability.

With Appius as the HRAO, as long as he stays alive and in Rome, the Republic can have deficit expenses. Which may be relevant very soon!

Next up, only one Mandatory Business remains this Turn: the Presiding Magistrate (now Appius) must propose a Type 1 Land Bill, thanks to the Agrarian Unrest Event. (This will also unlock all three Land Bill Types starting next Turn.) I'll talk about this in detail next, in its own post.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 29, 2018, 09:29:35 PM
(Since this Land Bill proposal happens automatically thanks to the event, it's considered already on the table for discussion, for or against -- we don't have to wait for the Frog, as Appius, to officially propose it.)

Land Bills are popular with the people, and reduce a little unrest, but they're expensive. Types 2 and 3 aren't as expensive as a Type 1 to implement, but they require ongoing upkeep expenses each Turn during the Revenue Phase! -- and at no extra benefit to Unrest, either! Whereas the Type 1 is over and done, but costs a lot up front and barely reduces unrest at all.

As you can tell, then, Land Bills are only meant for emergency unrest reduction. But the Agrarian Unrest (due to the drought, which it spawned) counts as a special emergency condition. (And also as the unlock for the Senate ability to pass Land Bills.)

To pass the Land Bill, it cannot only be proposed, it must also have a Sponsor and a Co-sponsor. (This is the only Proposal that needs sponsors, if I recall correctly.) Sponsors don't have to pay anything, they just volunteer to get a little popularity boost if the Land Bill passes.  >:D

Essentially, the first two senators' players to volunteer, get to be the Sponsor and Co-Sponsor. The PM cannot be a sponsor. A Player may announce two of his senators as Sponsor and Co-Sponsor, although there's a special risk of assassination for doing so. (Or rather, any player attempting to assassinate one of them afterward runs one important less risk if his senator is caught trying.) This early in the game, I don't expect anyone to be trying to assassinate each other's senators, btw, since that might easily be fatal to the whole game as a cascade effect!

If no one volunteers to sponsor the bill, it dies on the table, at no penalty to anyone (including the PM, since every other Faction didn't actually vote against his proposal).

The Sponsor senators must of course vote for the proposal, along with the PM, although a Player might decide other senators of his might vote against it for some reason!

Every senator who voted against it, loses 1 Popularity, whether the Bill passes or not. (If it's a Type 3 Land Bill, senators voting against it will lose 2 Pop each.)

If the Bill doesn't pass, there's no effect (except for senators who voted against it losing 1 Pop each).

If the Bill does pass: the Sponsor will gain 2 Pop, the Co-Sponsor will gain 1 Pop, and Unrest will drop by 1. (Other Land Bill types have slightly better results.) The Republic will also have to pay an extra 20 Talents during the next Revenue Phase, which will deactivate the bill. (Other Types must be deactivated, after at least one Turn in play, by a Senate proposal to repeal the Bill. Which will be unpopular with the people as might be expected!

As a reminder, the Republic has 36 Talents right now.

If this particular Type I Land Bill passes, the Republic will also be spared any bad results from any subsequent Plebian Seccession events for the rest of the game! (There are two of these historical events somewhere in the Latin deck, and each of them creates one more Drought event.) So you do have a special interest in risking the cash this early in the game as an opportunity. But then again, at most the Secession events will raise the Unrest by 2 total. That isn't a lot to deal with, whereas 20 Talents is a lot of cash to spend right now!

Aside from possible discussion, the first choice to be made will be whether anyone volunteers their senators as Sponsor and Co-Sponsor (or for the Frog, as one of the sponsors since he only has two senators and one of them is proposing the Bill as the Presiding Magistrate.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on September 29, 2018, 10:50:42 PM
Fabius volunteers to sponsor the land bill.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 06:57:58 AM
So noted! {scribbling notes}

While we're waiting to see if there's a co-sponsor, let me do some subtle strategizing commentary.  :coolsmiley:

First, the fewer Faction/Players there are, the easier it is for the Player with the Presiding Magistrate to engineer a voting bloc in favor of his Proposals. The Frog acted in a shrewd political way to raise the probability (if not the certainty) of one of his senators remaining the HRAO -- even though there is motivation for other Players to keep him HRAO for at least a little while (to avoid financial ruin) -- by picking a good general as Field Consul from a Faction whose votes would be a clear majority together with the Plutocrats. This effectively disenfranchised the other two Parties on the vote (and also sped up the game a little since it wasn't necessary to wait for them to vote). In this particular case, Tripoli and AzTank might not have cared, since it makes good sense -- but then again, right now Tripoli's Militarist senators offer equal advantage (still being Mil 5 each right now), and together they would have made an equally majority block of over 50% votes.

(As a side note, exactly 50% of votes isn't a majority, and so would lose.)

So why propose the Aristocrat senator instead of the Militarist senator? The Frog might have two reasons, among others. First, Tripoli's militarists are soon going to have strong advantages to being Consul, which the Frog may be worried about competing with, and so he's looking to court favor with the Aristocrats as a way of offsetting Tripoli from gaining too much political clout.

Second, the Aristocrats currently have three instead of two senators, and while they don't have any knights yet, their knights have potentially the strongest activist voting powers in the game -- but only as long as the Aristocrats have the highest total influence among the Factions! Sending Cincinnatus off to war doesn't reduce the influence, but it will reduce the normal vote tally, making the Plutocrats relatively stronger by comparison. Though also reducing the ability of the Aristocrats to help create a voting block with the Plutocrats. But also reducing the ability of the Aristocrats to create a voting block against the Plutocrats!

This game, y'all...  >:D
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 07:25:59 AM
Second (yes, none of that was "second" to the "first" yet  :)) ), Land Bills are an example of a Proposal where, if it does go to the vote, we'll have to get votes from everyone even if a majority has been established, because there are consequences for a senator voting one way instead of another. And Land Bills are one of the few Proposals where senators may not abstain from voting. A Player trying to abstain his senators, will be counted as votes against, and his senators will lose popularity as a result.

Now, I was thinking this morning, if I was the 5th Player (the Populist Faction as it happens), I'd be kind of torn (especially as the Populist Faction) about which way to vote. A drought or two from Plebian Succession can be managed easily enough by themselves, but they could stack up, too, from bad luck. So I'd be ambivalent about using this particular Type 1 Land Bill to avoid that problem, no clear yes or no. But I'd be much less ambivalent about sacrificing 20 of our 36 Talents for only 1 Unrest reduction and avoiding a couple of droughts later! True, the Republic will pick up another 30 Talents at the time this Bill comes due next Turn, but that's still (on the net) two Legions worth of cost that we'd be sacrificing. We might be better off having those Legions and reducing unrest (at least indirectly) by prosecuting Wars, since after all too many Active Wars will also sink the Republic! (Unless one of Tripoli's senators is HRAO.)

Admittedly, there's a temptation to rely on the Frog's safety net and run the Republic at a deficit, but there's still a risk we'd be caught with someone else as HRAO when a necessary expense happens to trigger and we're at 0 or under already -- and then we all lose! And also, I can't be a very big fan of giving the Plutocrats more and more excuse to always have someone as Consul (and Presiding Magistrate), because this gives him constantly too much power, which he can exploit to increase his influence faster. And while we may be safe right now from anyone trying to be king, a time will come (specifically when the Early Provincial Era starts, after the tutorial turns are done) when the people may accept someone as Consul for Life who might as well be king, and the Frog may have ambitions of winning the game early by himself by grooming up a senator with enough personal Influence to be Emperor!

So on the balance, I myself would like to vote against the Bill (since senators can't just abstain from voting on Land Bills). But there's a problem: I don't want my senators' popularity to go down, especially into the negative. So how to balance these concerns?

One way would be to go around privately by p-mail and voice my concerns, and try to convince no one to sponsor the bill. (POLITICS!  >:D )

But let's say I have three senators already, Fred, George, and Ron. Ron sucks at Oratory, with a skill of 1 (he can only bring his own vote to a topic), and he doesn't have any knights yet to boost that. I can have him sponsor the bill, and inoculate him from losing popularity, while reducing the chances of the bill passing (because Ron is only going to bring 1 vote in favor, not 3 or 5). If Fred or George have only 1 or 2 Oratory, too, I might announce one of them as the other Sponsor, and so inoculate them both, while the other twin happens to have better Oratory and maybe a knight already. So my net votes count against the Bill, but not all my senators take the Popularity hit. And if the Bill passes anyway, I'd get the consolation prize of picking up some popularity as a result of sponsoring it!

This would be an example of subtly playing with the voting system, to hedge my bets, since Players don't have to make all their senators vote together in a Faction.

(And now, coincidentally, I notice AzTank has Sponsored but not Co-Sponsored the Bill, even though right now he'd be safe enough from assassination's lowered risks, to volunteer two senators at once...  >:D )
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 07:39:39 AM
One more thing which might become relevant for this vote, or if not now then later: I didn't mention it on the prior vote, because it resolved too quickly and this wouldn't have been able to change the result, but when a senator votes -- or when a Player block-votes his senators -- the Player may decide to spend any number of Talents from his senators' personal treasuries, to bribe votes from the larger invisible group of minor senators.

Each Talent devoted to this gets 1 extra vote, on the current topic. That money goes to the bank, regardless of the vote's result, even if someone vetoes the vote (which is an ability that unlocks in various ways later) or an assassination somehow stops the vote (which wouldn't happen for a Land Bill, by the way, but could on some other votes.)

In the recent Consul vote, Tripoli and AzTank could have added another 3 votes by sacrificing all their remaining personal senator treasuries, but it wouldn't have overcome the majority block of I.I. and the Frog's normal votes (even if I.I. didn't kick in his remaining Talent, too.)

This vote, however, is potentially screwy enough, that I thought I should mention this rule opportunity now. I'll try to remember to bring it up later in relevant votes, too.

(I need to update my "Sabrerules" flowsheet compilation a little, but if anyone has the current doc, you can see it at 2.3.5.7.4.3. ...um, you might be able to tell from the fact that the rule is numbered 2.3.5.7.4.3., that the rule list is the maw of insanity, so be warned, be very awarned!)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 30, 2018, 08:16:27 AM
I say there's no need to sacrifice the better part of the treasury to momentarily appease the fickle lesser classes. It's best for us all if the land bill dies on the floor. If any one faction is solely responsible for bringing the bill to vote, I will be taking advantage of the reduced consequences for a failed assassination.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 08:47:12 AM
Bold!  :bd:

But presumably AzTank won't be Co-Sponsoring, or he'd have done it already. Though he still has the option to do so.

I.I. has weighed in as not sponsoring, and for practical purposes AzTank has weighed in already (though he might do so again). In order to proceed, we'll need to know whether Tripoli and/or the Frog will or will not be volunteering a senator to Co-Sponsor the Bill.

As a reminder, AzTank could still come back with his other senator to Co-Sponsor the Bill (despite I.I.'s threat). And Appius, having proposed the Bill, can't be Co-sponsor (or Sponsor).

If the Bill dies on the floor from a lack of Co-Sponsor, Appius as the Proposer won't be affected.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 09:13:04 AM
Meanwhile, though I.I. has been studying the rules, I guess I should talk enough about assassinations to explain why he's willing to take the reduced risk.

First, while assassinating key target senators can stop a Proposal in various ways, Land Bills cannot be stopped this way, so even if the assassination is successful the vote will go forward. Of course, I.I. could go after AzTank's other senator now, pre-emptively, but he wouldn't get the reduced assassination risk by doing so, and it wouldn't stop someone else from Co-sponsoring.

Second, there's a basic 33/33/33 percent chance of results from a 1d6 roll. 1 or 2, it's a total whiff. 3 or 4, the assassinating senator is caught. 5 or 6, the target senator is killed. (This can be modified up or down by playing Assassin cards or Bodyguard cards, but I.I. definitely does not have an Assassin card because he has no Faction cards remaining. For every Bodyguard, whether open or secret, the assassinating senator must roll again to see if he's caught, although this won't threaten the target further.)

If the assassinating senator is caught, he dies, with usual results. But the Faction Leader (if he wasn't the assassin himself) comes under suspicion of the plot, and the action must pause for the Censor officer to conduct a special Major Prosecution against him.

However (1) this suspicion is waived if the target was one of two Land Bill sponsors from the same Faction; and (2) there is no Censor yet, so I'm a little fuzzy about whether there can even be a Prosecution yet. There can't be for other crime investigations yet, but naturally an assassination is a special case.

Consequently, while whatever senator I.I. chooses to try the plot won't be specially protected, his Faction Leader will be -- this time.

Unless he sends his Faction Leader to try the assassination! -- in which case, if he gets caught, he dies as normal, and then people FREAK THE HELL OUT looking for conspirators. Meaning I'd draw mortality chits equal to any positive Popularity of the target, and any active senator from the drawn families also dies. But this early in the game, I think AzTank's senators' Popularity is still 0 (which is neutral), so there wouldn't be a witch-hunt for conspirators.


I should also add, although it won't be a risk this time, that if your last lone senator is caught in an assassination attempt (not in a random witch-hunt afterward), he not only dies but YOU WILL LOSE THE GAME! This is the only way a Player can lose the game by yourself.

The other Players can vote to show clemency, and allow you to stay in the game, but even then you have to completely discard and all your cash goes back to the bank; your senator's family goes to the bottom of the senator Curia pile instead of immediately respawning (as the Faction Leader, so he loses the normal protection of the Faction Leader to death); and you'll be temporarily out of the game in effect, until the normal respawning procedure (during the Population Phase before the Senate Phase on a Turn) grants you a new family senator as Faction Leader. (Or until you draw a Statesman during a Forum Phase, which you can validly play during a Revolution Phase.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on September 30, 2018, 09:49:42 AM
Sorry for the delay in responding.  Julius will co-sponser the bill.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 10:47:31 AM
Let it be noted! {scribbling}

The Frog must now call the vote on the Bill, and designate the Faction order of voting. Appius (who Proposed it), and Fabius and Julius, will have their votes necessarily counted as 'for'.

So the count stands thus at (clockwise from the proposer) Appius Claudius 7 (5 Ora + 2 knights), + Fabius 2, + Julius 4 (3 Ora + 1 knight) = 13 votes for.

All senators must vote, no exceptions, for this Proposal. A vote against will reduce your senator's Popularity by 1. No knight activist abilities will trigger to affect this vote.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 11:05:11 AM
While we're waiting for results: this vote, pass or fail, will end the Mandatory business.

The only non-Mandatory business available will be the question of raising more Legions from potential (in the Force Pool) to Active; and then creating a Force or two with the Conul(s) to send the Legions to War.

These are separate proposal types, so must be proposed separately; although if the Frog wanted to create two Forces from the Active Legions, and assign one Force to each Consul, he could batch that as one Proposal. (Normally that would be two Proposals, sending two Forces to War under two distinct generals.)

It will be up to the Frog to make the official proposals in any case. If he decides to send only the two currently Active Legions to War, and proposes that, and someone thinks that's too weak, then he risks Players voting against it! -- but if he wants to blow the budget completely out and raise the remaining 5 Legions (through the 7th Legion) to work with first, and someone doesn't like the Republic's budget being handicapped to keep the Plutocrats in power, then he risks Players voting against that!

Or he can try a more moderate set of proposals. Or talk to people publicly and/or privately before making the proposal.

Mmmm.... politics.  ^-^

Anyway, something to be thinking ahead on while we wait to hear the voting order for the Land Bill and then the actual votes.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on September 30, 2018, 02:43:26 PM
Ok.  So, I would like to call the vote. 

I think we already completed the vote for consuls?  And the vote passed?
Cincinatus told me he wanted to go to war, and would vote for me for Roman Consul if I would send him off to war.  That's why I did it the way I did. 


I have voted for. 
Next the plutocrats.
Then militarists
then aristocrats then
the conservatives. 

If there are any assassination attempts while I am roman consul, there will be consequences.
Assassination is not civilized. 

David

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on September 30, 2018, 02:55:46 PM
I would also like to hear opinions as to how to conduct this war. 

Currently, inclined to send Cincinatus with the two active legions off to fight. 
And, as you know, I have a promise to Cinciantus that I intend to keep. 
That said, if we want to muster soldiers and/or send more than one leader, I would consider. 

David

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 03:02:43 PM
Okay, to update the vote tally, I forgot Claudius' 2 knights, so it was actually 13 starting votes 'for'.

Fulvius of the Plutocrats adds another 2 Ora = 15 for the Type 1 Land Bill.

Tripoli with the Militarists are next to vote.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 03:05:43 PM
I think we already completed the vote for consuls?  And the vote passed?

Yes, between you and the Aristocrats, you had a majority block, and (unlike this vote) pro-or-con made no difference to the senators' stats, so there was no need to spend time polling the Militarists and the Conservatives. Appius is currently Roman Consul (and HRAO, thus also Presiding Magistrate), and Cincinnatus is currently Field Consul. Each senator gained 3 Influence.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 04:31:16 PM
Let me do a quick tally check, because we may already be past the point where there's no benefit for anyone opposing the Bill to even try voting against it. Primary numbers are Oratory, Secondary numbers refer to knights.

Definitely for already: Appius 5+2; Fulvius +2; Fabius +2; Julius +3+1 = 15.

Potentially against: Aristocrats +7; Manlius +2; Furius +3 = 12.

Okay, we can call a stop to the voting for the Bill at this point. Everyone else might as well vote in favor of it, because that comes with no downside while voting against it will only earn you -1 Popularity per senator with no way to win.

The Land Bill passes.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 04:40:49 PM
Unrest immediately reduces 1 point (down from 2 to 1). A Land Bill chit goes on its reminder square for next Revenue phase (-20 Talents). Fabiusí Popularity goes up to 2 to 2; Julius Pop goes up to 1 to 1.

Updated board overview:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1885/b8tc0R.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 04:51:48 PM
And the current sideboard zoomins:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/4739/DZw4uA.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5227/gv3bLo.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5241/HLyt7y.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/2214/GN9m4l.jpg)



Plus a reminder of the war to plan for now:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7013/YdLmVh.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 05:20:25 PM
Now, some things to consider when proposing and voting on how to deal with this war:

1.) Wars don't ever attack Rome directly, including this one (well, not in this game anyway). But they'll cost money each turn they stay active, and if you let them sit around too long they may 'team up' with other Wars of the same 'family' and become that much harder to stop.

2.) This war has a strength equal to 2 Legions (that's the 2 in the lower right corner), plus one more Legion's strength thanks to Tarqy (that's the +1 on his card).

3.) When the time comes to fight the War -- all fighting happens automatically as I roll and do calcs -- you'll be totaling a 3d6 roll, to which you'll subtract the enemy strength and add your Force's strength. You want the total to be 14 or better. If it's 18 or more, then you win with no losses, which is the ideal result.

4.) Every war has a basic strength which it will always have for as long as it's active. Later in the game, some Wars can pick up auxiliary strength which can be whittled away. And sometimes you can manage to randomly kill the Enemy Leader which will permanently remove the bonus strength to his War(s), even if his War continues on.

What this means is that almost always any losses suffered will be the Republic's.

5.) There are five possible results to the combat roll:

5.1.) Defeat, on a total of <=7. In this case any of your surviving Legions will return to the Active Pool, and any surviving senators at the War will return to Rome (specifically to the mats for each Player). However the senator commanding the attack will die. Unrest immediately jumps +2. Depending on the level of Defeat, you may lose x number of units in your Force.

5.2.) Disaster, on a total of the specific black square number for the card, replaced by the black square number on the leader's card. Tarqy scores a disaster if you total a 7. You lose 50% of your Force rounded up, and Unrest jumps +1. But your army (if anything is left) stays in the field.

5.3.) Standoff, on a total of the specific gray square number on the card, replaced by the grey square of the leader. Tarqy scores a Standoff on a total of 14 (which would normally be a victory for you!) You lose 25% of your Force rounded up, but no Unrest, and your army (if anything is left) stays in the field.

5.4.) Stalemate on a total from 8 to 13. Your army stays in the field, and loses x number of units depending on the exact result.

5.5.) Victory on a total of 14 or higher (unless the War or its Leader supersedes that with a Standoff result!) The War discards, and the Leader goes to the Curia, while your surviving Legions and their commanders go home (though they won't arrive home until the Forum Phase next turn). There are some other possible results depending on circumstances (getting to loot spoils, and maybe the Leader permanently discards), and you could still lose x-number of units depending on the exact roll.

In any case, if you or your enemy leader isn't killed outright, you both check randomly to see if you die or, in your case, if you're captured.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 05:29:49 PM
Now, what's important to take from all that:

1.) Having a commander who negates Disasters and Standoffs for a particular war, can be important.

2.) You can attack a particular War more than once a Turn, if you have enough separately commanded Forces at the War. On any Turn, a War can only generate one Standoff and one Disaster result, so one strategy is to send two Forces with orders that the D/S voiding general attack first, possibly burning out a D or S result.

3.) This War has a power of 3, so unless you bring a Force of more than 3 power, it'll be a purely random dice roll, mostly weighed against you, since even some victory and stalemate results will be negated (by Tarqy's D/S scores), and only Rome will take damage (even in most victory situations).

4.) Your general will double the power of x-number of Legions under his command, where x = his Military skill. So sending 2 Legions under Cincinnatus will be like sending 4 Legions; and sending 5 Legions will be like sending 10 Legions. But sending 6 Legions will be like sending 11 Legions, not 12.

5.) Sending 2 Legions, even under Cincinnatus, will only make your Force's power 4. Meaning you'll only add 1 to your 3d6 dice roll (4 - 3 War power = +1 to roll.) That isn't much to offset the table stacked against you.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 05:32:50 PM
Oh, and 6.) If you want to raise more Legions to active duty, they cost 10 Talents each, and the Republic has 36 Talents. You can afford 3 more Legions before you go in the hole. Each new Legion will add another 2 Talents every year to Rome's ongoing expenses, remember.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on September 30, 2018, 06:20:54 PM
I'd suggest that we raise at least two extra legions. A +5 or +7 should give us a decent shot at victory.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 06:28:38 PM
Even a +5 (from raising two more Legions for a total of four Legions, under Cincinnatus = power 8 - War power 3) would at least avoid an outright defeat. And Tarqy's Disaster target, too! (Minimum roll 3 + 5 = 8.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on September 30, 2018, 08:31:07 PM
Meanwhile, I have good news for AzTank! ....sort of!

Remember how the Conservative Faction is supposed to start with an extra family Senator?

Me neither!!  :D  :hide: L:-)

But I finally remembered, now, while trying to check on something else. Better late than never.

So I drew the next family Senator out of the Latin Era deck, and the Conservatives can welcome Papirius... who was recovering from a protracted illness when appointed to the Senate, but who has managed to drag himself in finally. Yes, let's just go with that, shall we?

The current overview of the board, and the close-up of the Conservative mat, has been fixed in the above post, including the normal vote total and total influence of the Faction.

I'll make myself a note to give him an extra Talent of Income next Turn, too, to offset the cash he didn't contribute this Turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on September 30, 2018, 09:52:11 PM
Could we raise 3 more legions, or is that pushing Rome's finances too far?  My understanding is it would cost us 30, + 10 upkeep each turn, so we could swing it the first turn.  The next turn we would have -20 talents for the land bill, -10 for legion upkeep, and +30 income.  Very tight, but it might allow us to win the war quickly.  Are my numbers correct, or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 01, 2018, 05:34:59 AM
Could we raise 3 more legions, or is that pushing Rome's finances too far?  My understanding is it would cost us 30, + 10 upkeep each turn, so we could swing it the first turn.  The next turn we would have -20 talents for the land bill, -10 for legion upkeep, and +30 income.  Very tight, but it might allow us to win the war quickly.  Are my numbers correct, or am I missing something?

I think that's correct. However, if we don't win the war, there'll be another -10 cost.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 06:36:56 AM
You've also got some Allied Enthusiasm coming in next turn as a donation... I think 26 Talents? I'd have to check upthread.

Don't forget that your senators can donate talents to the Republic Treasury, too, before the bills come due. It isn't a lot this early in the game, but it isn't nothing either.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 06:44:59 AM
Could we raise 3 more legions, or is that pushing Rome's finances too far?  My understanding is it would cost us 30, + 10 upkeep each turn

To clarify, it would be a new total upkeep of 10 per turn, but not an ADDITIONAL 10 per turn. Legions throughout the game only cost 2 Talents per turn, and you'd have 5 (x2=10 upkeep).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 07:46:31 AM
We may have a new Faction or two spawning in soon! -- "Malize" from the Computer Wargaming FB group at least has joined up to play, possibly someone else from there, too.

The Populists and then the Expansionists are the next two Factions to arise, but I may let newcomers pick from remaining Factions if they have a preference. (I let y'all pick, too, if you had preferences, but no one said so for or against any Faction, so I sorted you based on your initial senator random draws.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 01, 2018, 09:04:17 AM
We may have a new Faction or two spawning in soon! -- "Malize" from the Computer Wargaming FB group at least has joined up to play, possibly someone else from there, too.

The Populists and then the Expansionists are the next two Factions to arise, but I may let newcomers pick from remaining Factions if they have a preference. (I let y'all pick, too, if you had preferences, but no one said so for or against any Faction, so I sorted you based on your initial senator random draws.)

Populists are a fine choice, if it helps with the spawn Iíd select most popular as faction leader and divide any monies evenly with any remainders going to the faction head
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 10:00:55 AM
Picking the most popular senator as your Faction Leader is a reasonable idea, but the family Senators (and most Statesmen) always spawn in with 0 (neutral) popularity.

Your Faction won't have any cash yet until the Revenue Phase next Turn, either. But you won't need it either.

I'll probably spawn the Populists in after the Combat Phase, at the start of the Revolution Phase (the final phase of the turn) so that like everyone else when they started the game, you'll have some opportunity to immediately play Statesmen and/or Concessions if you draw any initially.

But if I get around to it, I may bring you in a little earlier to help with voting on who to send to the war and/or how many new Legions should be raised (if any).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 01, 2018, 03:14:57 PM
Manlius and Julius both volunteer to leave their plow and the comforts of home and hearth to lead Rome's 5 legions in defense of their sacred city, should the senate require their humble (level 5 military skill).  But only with the greatest of reluctance.....
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 04:13:58 PM
Spoken like true Romans! -- but the way the Senate works, only Consuls can lead troops to war. (Or the Dictator with his Master of Horse, but that office only unlocks when the War power exceeds 20 or there are 4+ active wars.)

You may still get a chance to punch the 1st Latin War, if Cinc is still there next Turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 04:15:38 PM
While I'm busy preparing the Populists to join, remember that aside from discussion on procedure we're waiting for the Frog to make a specific Proposal about either training up more Legions, or packing up the current 2 Legions with a Consul to go fight.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 04:58:58 PM
Whilst the Senate deliberates how much force to send with which Consul, the scions of two new senatorial families team up together as the POPULIST FACTION!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2328/qITDNg.jpg)

The Aurelian family Senators will have the following stats: Mil 2, Ora 3, Loy 7, and Inf 3. Altogether rather a meh family.

The Junius family on the other hand sends the historical Statesman Lucius Junius Brutus! A cousin of the former king Tarquinius Superbus, Brutus earned his cognomen (nickname, the Brute) for pretending to be slow witted, but this hid a careful and cunning plotter, who at the appropriate time revealed himself against the latest scandal of the king as a leader of the revolution to throw out the tyrant and bring the city and its local territories into the government of a Republic! (Although what he originally wanted was to become king himself, cough cough. ;) )

In the game, Brutus has been held out in the Forum from the start, to be given immediately to the first Player to pick up the Junius family. Had this triggered at the start of the game, he would have been automatically the first Consul.

Brutus is no slack, with stats of Military 4, Oratory 3, Loyalty 9, Influence 7, and even a rare starting Popularity of 1! Like Appius Claudius, but with much better Military management skill, Brutus can void D/S results if he's fighting against the 1st Latin War.

As per Malize's preferences, unless he decides otherwise, Brutus will be his Faction Leader, since he already has (a little) popularity to start with. I'll also give them each 1 Talent for their Personal Treasuries.

As a reminder, the Populists farm Popularity (duh). Any time one of their senators gains any amount of Popularity, Malize can add one more free Pop point to any of his other senators. Moreover, while each of their knights will add the usual +1 vote and +1 Talent income, the Populists don't have activist knights. Instead, their senators gain one extra vote in the Senate, for or against any topic, for each Popularity point above 0 (up to the Pop limit of 9). This makes them the only Faction whose activist extra votes are immune to the Neutralist. (I'm playing with balancing this; originally it was going to be positive Pop - 2 extra votes per senator. I might still go back to that if the Populists end up overpowered.)

Perhaps most importantly, as long as a Populist senator is the HRAO during the Population Phase, not only will he get a +4 to his total roll for his State of the Republic speech, but the Republic cannot fail due to a public revolt roll after the speech! -- so if you've got a lot of Unrest you can't deal with yet, his senators could be the safest option for HRAO.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 01, 2018, 06:47:40 PM
Do we have a proposal at this point?  I think it is either to raise 2 legions for 20, which is safely within budget, or 3 for 30 which we can probably afford given anticipated future revenue.

I am leaning towards 2 for 20.  Cincinatus should be able to win the war with that.  But what do others think?  I would like a motion that I can put to a vote. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 01, 2018, 07:03:19 PM
I'd be satisfied with two (although another would only improve our chances).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 01, 2018, 08:07:07 PM
Looks perfect JP. :)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 01, 2018, 08:48:41 PM
Let me provide a clearer look at the combat results table:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9536/RH5RMB.jpg)

(There's a misprint inherent to the board there: the roll is 3d6, not 2d6.)

The options being currently considered amount to this -- do you go to war with 2 Legions, 4 Legions, or 5 Legions? And I think the main discussion is whether you go with 4 or 5 (not merely with the starting 2.)

In a 3d6 roll, the probabilities of which I haven't totally plotted by the way (someone may wish to do some research), the results are a bell curve of probability. On this chart there are 5 Defeat results and 5 Victory results, of equal probability spread on either side of the curve. In the middle are 6 Stalemate results, which also hold the most probable results of a 3d6 total. One point to note is that the results for Stalemates are skewed a little in favor of Rome, in that it is equally probable (before modifiers) that you will lose no units as you will lose 5 units. Whereas the spread of unit loss probabilities for Victory or Defeat results are more equal. On the other hand, overall even the Stalemate results are skewed heavily against Rome, simply because only Rome takes losses! The next time you fight against this War, it will have the same inherent strength, regardless of your result! (Unless you randomly kill Tarqy.)

Assuming you send your most competent Consul, Cincinnatus, who is capable of doubling the power of 5 Legions, you may consider the following cost-benefit analysis.

2 Legion army: costs you nothing extra. Results in (2x2=)4-3=+1 bonus. Minimum result now becomes 3+1=4. You will eliminate the chance of a defeat that wipes all your Legions out, but that result is stupidly rare (1 chance in 216). You will also somewhat increase your chance of Victory instead of Stalemate, and equally increase your chance of Stalemate instead of Defeat. Put a little simply, you'll now have 4 Defeat results, and 6 Victory Results, with 6 Stalemate results remaining at about the same probability as before. On the other hand, most unit-loss results, whether Defeat, Stalemate, or Victory, will still wipe out all your army just as effectively as a total Defeat!

4 Legion army: costs you 20 Talents (plus ongoing upkeep). Results in (2x4=)8-3= +5 bonus. Minimum result now becomes 3+5=8. You will totally eliminate the chance of a defeat. I don't think you can actually eliminate Tarqy's chances of a Disaster, rolling a total of 7: D/S results are checked before adding your Die Roll Modifiers. Your chances for Stalemate are effectively shifted down out of the highest part of the bell curve, and your chances for Victory effectively take over most of the highest part of the bell curve as well as retaining the 'right side' of the curve. Your possibilities of losing up to 5 or 4 units remain (wiping your whole army), but are rendered rather low -- and odds improve drastically that even if you lose your whole army you'll still be Victorious.

5 Legion army: costs you 30 Talents (plus ongoing upkeep). Results in (2x5=)10-3 = +7 bonus. Minimum result now becomes 3+7=10. You still cannot outright lose, and you've now eliminated three Stalemate results, too, including making it impossible to lose 5 units. It's still possible to lose 4 units, but not without gaining Victory. The chances of losing 3 or even 2 units in a Stalemate are crazy low, although your chances of losing them in a Victory are still pretty good. The chances of losing no units at all are very substantial, at least 50% or even little better! (No-loss victory now occupies at least half the bell curve; and also the no-loss Stalemate remains possible, and more likely than any losses with Stalemate.)

Keep in mind that reducing or eliminating the loss of any units also reduces or eliminates upcoming opportunity costs for having to replace those units at 10 more Talents each.


Edited to add: Yang Wen-Li would say (for any fans of The Legend of the Galactic Heroes), that the 5 Legion army fulfills the ideal minimum criteria of 6 to 1 odds against your enemy.  :coolsmiley:
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 01, 2018, 09:34:03 PM
In a 3d6 roll, the probabilities of which I haven't totally plotted by the way (someone may wish to do some research), the results are a bell curve of probability. On this chart there are 5 Defeat results and 5 Victory results, of equal probability spread on either side of the curve. In the middle are 6 Stalemate results, which also hold the most probable results of a 3d6 total. One point to note is that the results for Stalemates are skewed a little in favor of Rome, in that it is equally probable (before modifiers) that you will lose no units as you will lose 5 units. Whereas the spread of unit loss probabilities for Victory or Defeat results are more equal. On the other hand, overall even the Stalemate results are skewed heavily against Rome, simply because only Rome takes losses! The next time you fight against this War, it will have the same inherent strength, regardless of your result! (Unless you randomly kill Tarqy.)
Anydice is nice for visualizing probabilities. 4 legions (https://anydice.com/program/11b10) and 5 legions (https://anydice.com/program/11b11). It's interesting to note the tradeoff between the cost of recruiting an extra legion and the cost of rerecruiting any legions lost.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 07:11:01 AM
Ooooo...!  :D :bd:
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 02, 2018, 09:59:42 AM
Ok. I  propose a 4 legion army for the vote.  The cost will be 20 talents.

OUr legislative analyst says this "4 Legion army: costs you 20 Talents (plus ongoing upkeep). Results in (2x4=)8-3= +5 bonus. Minimum result now becomes 3+5=8. You will totally eliminate the chance of a defeat. I don't think you can actually eliminate Tarqy's chances of a Disaster, rolling a total of 7: D/S results are checked before adding your Die Roll Modifiers. Your chances for Stalemate are effectively shifted down out of the highest part of the bell curve, and your chances for Victory effectively take over most of the highest part of the bell curve as well as retaining the 'right side' of the curve. Your possibilities of losing up to 5 or 4 units remain (wiping your whole army), but are rendered rather low -- and odds improve drastically that even if you lose your whole army you'll still be Victorious."

I vote for.

Next the plutocrats.
Then militarists
then aristocrats then
the conservatives
then our newest member, the populists.

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 02, 2018, 10:00:19 AM
In a 3d6 roll, the probabilities of which I haven't totally plotted by the way (someone may wish to do some research), the results are a bell curve of probability. On this chart there are 5 Defeat results and 5 Victory results, of equal probability spread on either side of the curve. In the middle are 6 Stalemate results, which also hold the most probable results of a 3d6 total. One point to note is that the results for Stalemates are skewed a little in favor of Rome, in that it is equally probable (before modifiers) that you will lose no units as you will lose 5 units. Whereas the spread of unit loss probabilities for Victory or Defeat results are more equal. On the other hand, overall even the Stalemate results are skewed heavily against Rome, simply because only Rome takes losses! The next time you fight against this War, it will have the same inherent strength, regardless of your result! (Unless you randomly kill Tarqy.)
Anydice is nice for visualizing probabilities. 4 legions (https://anydice.com/program/11b10) and 5 legions (https://anydice.com/program/11b11). It's interesting to note the tradeoff between the cost of recruiting an extra legion and the cost of rerecruiting any legions lost.

Very nice.  It looks like an approximately 75% chance of an outright victory based on 4 legions, and a 90% chance with 5.  Based on this, and the state of Roman finances, I recommend going with 4 legions (ie, raising 2).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 10:59:17 AM
(...um, you are the Plutocrats, the Frog.)

So, Appius Claudius, as the Presiding Magistrate, has made the Proposal to raise 2 more Legions (not 3, yet), which will cost 20 Talents now (plus an extra 4 Talents ongoing per Turn).

The Plutocrats apparently vote together in a block "for", so 9 votes for.

Based on Tripoli's recommendation shortly afterward, the Militarists (next in the Frog's declared order) presumably block-vote for, adding 6 votes. Current tally 15 votes for.

Among the remaining factions there are currently 7 (Aristo) + 7 (Conservs) + 7 (Pops) = 21 votes outstanding.

The next Faction to block-vote "For" will seal the vote.

I.I.'s Aristocrats are next.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 02, 2018, 02:03:37 PM
For.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 02:20:43 PM
That seals the voting majority then! -- I'll reduce the Republic Treasury a little later this afternoon, after work, and add the 3rd and 4th Legions to the Active Pool.

I think the last possible business for this Senate Phase is simply a Proposal to send one of the Consuls (either Appius Claudius, or Cincinnatus -- and everyone has been talking about Cinc) with x-number of Legions, off to War.

I've dropped a note to the Frog.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 03:07:28 PM
While I'm waiting for Steam to finish updating, so I can get on TTS and adjust the board:

The current edition of the Living Rules explicitly prohibit batching proposals of different types, such as "I Propose we raise two more Legions; and I Propose we then send all four Active Legions to fight against the 1st Latin War under command of the Consul Cincinnatus."

However, the rules don't explicitly prohibit line-voting on proposal batches of the same type (where those are allowed, which is usually, with a few exceptions.)

So I'm going to umpire a rule alteration, allowing batch proposals of different types, in order to expedite asynchronous play (where it may be hours or a few days between players checking in), with the provision that senators (and Factions as a block) can line-vote. Extra vote activist abilities would still apply on a line-by-line basis within the batched proposal.

For example, a Faction might have voted "For" raising the Legions but "Against" them being sent to fight the 1st Latin war under Cincinnatus. Maybe the Faction wanted them sent against some other War on the board, or sent under the other Consul, or sent as reinforcements to a Proconsul already at the War rather than under command of a separate senator -- but still agreed with raising another two Legions.

I think this should help move the game along better.  O:-) I wish I had thought of it a day sooner...  ::)  :P


Well, we can be sure that the Plutocrats and the Aristocrats will vote in favor of sending out Cincinnatus to fight the 1st Latin War with all four Active Legions (because that has been their stated plan, once the number of Legions were sorted out, which they already voted for). And I think we can presume the Militarists will agree, because Tripoli was recommending basically this. (He might prefer one of his own senators go, but that isn't possible since none are Consul; and it would be self-defeating for him to propose the less capable Appius go instead, plus he'd have a hard time selling that to get enough votes from other Factions against the Plutocrat/Aristocrat block.)

In that case, we'll have a presumptive straw proposal and vote already settled; and since there's currently nothing else to vote on, we can safely presume the Frog will declare the Senate closed.

Unless I see some dissension on this from any of the parties involved, I'll proceed along then.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 03:54:42 PM
Okay, 3rd and 4th Legions raised from the Force Pool (the potential logistic pool) to the Active Pool. 5th, 6th, and 7th Legions remain potential.

Republic cash goes down 20 Talents from 36 to 16.

Cincinnatus takes the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Legions, and leaves Rome to go fight against Tarquinius Superbus and the 1st Latin War!

This reduces the Aristocrat total Influence to 10, and their normal vote tally to 5.

This is an important concept to keep in mind for later, especially for I.I.'s Aristocrats, since the double-vote activist power of any of his knights depends on the Aristocrats having the most total Influence in Rome. Right now it doesn't matter, because there's nothing else to vote on and the Frog (presumably) closes the Senate after the Field Consul of the Republic departs with his Force.

A time will come however when having senators leave Rome to go fight wars or to govern provinces, may significantly affect the chances of certain votes being passed. And if Cinc is still out at War next Turn, he won't be around to vote on any Mandatory Business! -- and would have to be voted back to the Senate for his votes and influence to count on any subsequent non-Mandatory Business. (And then he couldn't be immediately sent back to any War because he wouldn't be a Consul anymore.)

I figured I should explain some of the subtleties here, before going on to the action.  >:D
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 03:58:05 PM
TURN ONE -- COMBAT PHASE
---------------------------------

This is a fully automatic phase, and is notorious for the rules getting reaaaallllly squirrely, in an attempt to cover potential situations!

This Turn however, everything is almost as simple as possible. There's only one extra factor, the Enemy Leader.

Here's the pre-battle setup!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4127/uRaFuf.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 04:14:38 PM
(As you can see, Cinc brought his personal cash with him. This is only a factor later.)

Time to make sure I've introduced all the numbers, for a basic understanding of the War.

First, some numbers that make no difference. The [18a] is simply Cinc's family number; the brackets mean this family has a Statesman in the deck for this Era, and that's Cinc of course. The white number in the lower-right of the purple "Field Consul" chit, is a print reminder of how much Influence a senator normally gains from being elected Field Consul. This early in the game it's 3 Inf, however, not 5. The white number in the lower left of the purple chit, marks the rank of this office when trying to figure out which senator is currently the Highest Ranking Officer in Rome. Field Consul is 3rd rank. He's outranked by the Roman Consul, and by any Dictator (at #1). He's also outranked, along with everyone else, by anyone elected Consul for Life (i.e. as Emperor, not the same as a Dictator necessarily.)

Other numbers that make no difference include all a senators' stats except for Military, which we've thoroughly discussed already. (A Militarist senator's knights would help him logistically maximize the effectiveness of his units, by increasing his Mil skill, but Cinc belongs to the Aristocrat Faction. In this game. For now.)

Cinc can void automatic Disaster and Standoff rolls for two different wars, but not for this one, so that factor will be ignored.

You can see the 1st through 4th Legion chits aligned along the bottom of his card. (Tabletop Simulator is super-handy for being able to resize and make instant copies of pieces.  :smitten: ) Units in this game don't have a "damaged" state. They're either alive or dead, period. Eventually the Republic will unlock the ability for Legions to earn Veteran status, which is what the backside of those chits will show.

Up to the War itself. The Leader offsets some combat factors on the card, so I've carefully placed Tarqy over them. The number in the lower right corner remains: 2. The sword and shield icon next to it indicates this is Land power, not Sea power: you need Legions to fight it, not Fleets. (Fleets unlock in the Early Provincial Era, as Rome finally expands past the Italian peninsula.)

Tarqy's red +1 means he adds +1 to the War's power of 2. So this War has a power of 3.

Last but not least, the Black and Grey squares indicate the 3d6 totals which will trigger an automatic Disaster or Standoff combat result.

Next up, the actual fight!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 04:21:01 PM
Total number of Legions: 4
Add the Commander's Mil rating, up to the total of Legions: +4
Subtract the War's Land Strength: -2
Subtract the Enemy's rating: -1

Total is the Die Roll Modifier (DRM): +5

This will be added to the total of the 3d6:

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 5, 4, 1, total 10[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 04:57:01 PM
10 doesn't trigger an automatic Disaster or Standoff for this War, yay!

10+5=15.

And that's a Victory! -- but with 3 Legions lost. (Scroll up again for the chart.)

Ouch, that will cost 30 Talents to (eventually, on some future Turn) replace. But on the bright side, it won't cost 3x2=6 Talents next Turn's revenue. ;)

This leads to the question of which Legions die, which isn't too important right now since all Legions are equal. But the basic concept (which I've added to the game) is that older Legions may be regarded as at least a little more experienced, and so I'm rolling a die (in TTS since that would be clunky here) for each Legion from highest to lowest number (4th to 1st in this case). Odds, it dies. If I pass the oldest Legion then I start again at the youngest. Once the death total has been met, I stop.

4th lives; 3rd lives; 2nd dies; 1st dies.

One more death needed: 4th lives; 3rd dies.

4th Legion survives. The others go back to the Force Pool.

Victory reduces Unrest down 1, from 1 to 0. Yay!

The Commander gaining the Victory (not prior or subsequent multiple Commanders attacking the War) increases both his Influence and also his Popularity by half the War's printed Fleet or Land strengths (including captured Provinces!), rounded up. So that's 2/1=1 to Cinc's Inf and Pop, up to 5 and 2 respectively. (A Militarist Commander would get an extra +1 to both Inf and Pop.)

For Land Victory, unless against Revolting Province, Rome cash increases by the Spoils number on the War card: so 10 Talents to the Treasury, up to 26!

Other printed card results: victory in this War unlocks local territory amounting to "Tax Concessions 1 and 2".

Normally an Enemy Leader would go to the Enemy slot in the Curia, but per his card Tarquinius discards (along with the War) upon this War's defeat.

All Commanders for this War return to their Faction mats, now being in Rome again. Any uncommanded Legions go directly to the Active Pool, but otherwise Legions stay with their Commander for now. So Cinc goes back to the Aristocrat mat, taking the 4th Legion with him. This brings the Aristocrats' normal vote tally and total influence back up to 7 and 15.

Cinc immediately loses 1 Popularity for every 2 Legions lost, rounded down. So he loses 1 Pop, down from 2 to 1.

He must also draw Mortality chits for each unit lost, so 3 chits! -- but his family number 18 doesn't come up, so he lives.

That takes us through all the results! Dinnertime for me now, and then I'll be back to explain the Revolution Phase, the finale for the Turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 02, 2018, 05:50:12 PM
TURN ONE -- REVOLUTION PHASE
--------------------------------------

This Phase's name comes from the eventual ability of Factions to decide if any of their senators will try to win the game by themselves (along with any helpers from their Faction) by Rebelling against the Senate. But that won't unlock for several turns, until the Early Provincial Phase.

So, the Senate has safely shepherded the Republic through its first big year!

This being the first Rev Phase, Players now unlock the ability to donate Faction cards and/or Faction cash to each other, whether for free or for whatever considerations.  ^-^

These donations can be done at any time during a Turn, but the donations are kept Delayed on the receiving Player's sideboard until the next proper Phase arrives. Faction cards can be received now, and any donated now will be received immediately, but otherwise they won't arrive fully until the next Revolution Phase. Donated cash (which can only go between Faction Treasuries) won't arrive fully until the start of any Revenue Phase.

There are a few other choices for Players to make this Phase. While at a board these would be made in clockwise order around the table, for asynch I've decided they can be made by any Player at any time in any order.

1.) If you somehow have 6+ Faction cards, you must reduce your hand to 5 or less, by whatever means, before the Turn can end. You can discard any number of your Faction cards you want to, or trade them off, or simply donate them. No one has that many cards yet (by far), but theoretically everyone might decide to pile their remaining cards onto Malize as a welcoming gift!  <:-)

2.) Anyone may also now play any valid Statesmen or Concessions from your hand. Most Concessions still have not unlocked yet, but Tax Farming 1 and 2 (now that some towns in Latium have been punched down for trying to take back Rome for Tarqy), and the Mining Concession, are playable.

I'll be sending p-mails to everyone very soon to give you a quick reminder whether you can play your cards yet or not. Except for I.I., since the Aristocrats don't have any Faction cards right now!

Once everyone has stated publicly whether they'll play any cards, or not, the Phase and Turn One will be done; and I'll move on to Turn Two and the various automatic things which kick off the Turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 02, 2018, 08:51:10 PM
Aurelius will instruct his trusted Servus Corporis, Gneapor, to take steps to collect the Mining Concession the dominus has recently acquired...
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 04:07:27 AM
Hello everyone, I've sent JP a message and hope to be joining the game soon. I'm currently waiting to be assigned a faction.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 06:41:29 AM
Welcome, Thraw--I MEAN "ERAX".  ^-^

Do you have any preferences among the remaining three? -- Expansionists, Progressives, or Neutralists?

Nominally the next one will be the Expansionists, but I give everyone a chance to declare preferences for or against.  O:-)

I'll slot you in after the mortality draw this afternoon (it'll be 8+ hours from now), so as not to risk handicapping your Faction too much out of the gate compared to other Players already developing their memberships. (Same for Malize, I'll exempt the Populist senators for your first turn.)

Aurelius will instruct his trusted Servus Corporis, Gneapor, to take steps to collect the Mining Concession the dominus has recently acquired...

 O0 I'll update that this afternoon, too. It will come in handy very soon when we reach the Revenue Phase this afternoon/tonight!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 06:59:58 AM
Here's a quick link to the description of the remaining Factions. They're tricky to play! http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22819.msg629033#msg629033
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 07:13:44 AM
I think the Expansionists are tricky, I'll leave them for a more experienced player. Can I take the Progressives?

Our motto will be 'FUTURUM SUMUS'.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 07:21:53 AM
I think the Expansionists are tricky, I'll leave them for a more experienced player. Can I take the Progressives?

Our motto will be 'FUTURUM SUMUS'.

Will do!

...so begins the Troll Rain.  >:D
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 03, 2018, 07:36:39 AM
I will play Statesman Spurious Cassius Vicellinus
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 07:43:16 AM
Oh, I'll be a nice troll. For now.

In fact, I'd like to propose a Public Agreement that'll help us and Rome in this early stage: every turn, every faction transfers two Talents to one faction (starting with the Aristocrats and moving down the player order) and once they get this income they must use it to donate 10 talents to Rome with their LEAST popular senator, which they can pick if there's a tie. The Agreement lasts until everyone in it has had a turn (any late-arriving factions or factions that don't want to participate will be left out) and then we decide if we go for another round.

What do my esteemed colleagues think?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 08:38:02 AM
As umpire I regard this as legal, btw. Note that he isn't actually making a "Proposal" for a vote, which he can't do (he doesn't even have senators yet, much less the HRAO, nor any Tribunes, which haven't even unlocked functionality yet.)

He's actually wanting players to sign up for a public contract, which would be enforceable (if there are any stated downsides to non-fulfillment), and which could be dropped out of if there's an accidental non-fulfillment.

The goal of his proposal (for want of a better term ;) ) is to encourage Players to have their senators donate cash to the Republic's Treasury. Right now cash is so thin that it's very hard for a senator who does so to gain any Influence from doing so, which reduces motivation for Players to donate.

On Erax's plan, everyone would be contractually obligated to donate 2 Talents (from Faction cash of course) per Turn to a designated Faction, until that Faction had accrued 10 Talents in a special side pocket (so to speak) reserved purely for this purpose per contract, and then at the next available Revenue Phase the Faction transfers those 10 Talents to the least Influential senator (or player's choice if there's a tie) for that Faction, specifically to be used as donation from that senator's personal Treasury to the Republic's Treasury, which would then earn that senator 1 Influence point.

Once the current target Faction has received the 10 Talents (at least Delayed if not actual yet), the next Faction clockwise becomes the target. And so on for one full sequence around the table, however many Turns that takes.

Cash donations can now happen from Faction to Faction at any time, although they won't arrive until the Revenue Phase. But presumably this contract would only start to apply at the start of Turn Two. The Revenue Phase would be the safest time to make such donations to the current target Faction, and they would arrive immediately; but due to the HRAO-based sequence, the target Player might end up receiving his cash too late to donate to the Republic on that Turn. The cash would be held by that Player to the side (which I would enforce with a special counter, let's say), until the next Revenue Phase allows him to distribute and play it from his selected senator.

This could be very doable. I could track whether Players have donated yet on a particular Turn or not, by putting -2 on the counter which would eventually be used to track their incoming donations. If it's still negative when it comes a Faction's Turn to be the donation Target, then the next Faction around the table with a zeroed tracker (being caught up on donations) gets to be the Target for receiving.

This would be a good disciplinary cooperative practice for helping the Republic survive in early days; it would help more recent senators farm a little influence along the way; and it wouldn't be hard for me to implement and track.

I think every Player would have to sign the contract, for it to be properly implemented, though. And someone needs to create a proper wording for the contract in its details for how it works.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 03, 2018, 09:58:01 AM
I think it is an interesting proposal and I am glad you suggested it. 

It is, effectively, a taxation system.  I am not familiar enough with the game to be comfortable with such a system personally and my inclination would be to table it until we have played a few rounds. I am partially self-motivated since, as I understand it, the less fiscally responsibile the nation is, the more you need me to lead it.  ;) 

However, this is is a democracy and I would like to hear other's opinions on this.  So, I request that each of you weigh in as to your opinion.  Let's try to get our debate on the subject resolved in 24 hours-I will extend to 48 hours if people say they want/need more time.  But, if we don't have clear interest in it in the short run, I think we can safely table it for this turn and keep it on the potential agenda for next. 

 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 10:05:20 AM
THE 'TALENTS to SUPPORT ROME' (TSR) AGREEMENT:

1. All Signing Factions, starting on the Mortality Phase of the turn this agreement is signed (or on the Mortality Phase of the next turn, if the turn in which the agreement is signed is already past the Mortality Phase) agree to:

2. Donate two talents per turn to a designated Signing Faction, starting by all Signing Factions donating to the Signing Faction with the lowest Player Number and following by order of Player Number according to the following conditions.

3. Signing Factions set to receive donations on a given turn (Receiving Factions) will also donate to themselves.

4. Donated money will be held in the Receiving Faction's Treasury in a separate fund (the TSR Fund) that may only be spent or transferred as follows.

5. At any time that the TSR Fund is equal to or greater than 10 talents, the Receiving Faction will transfer 10 talents to its Senator with the least amount of Popularity. It may choose between Senators if there is a tie for least popularity. The Receiving Faction will then donate any talents remaining in the TSR Fund to the Signing Faction with the lowest Player Number that is higher than its own, and that other faction becomes the Receiving Faction.

6. When a faction transfers 10 talents to one of its Senators, that Senator must donate those 10 talents to Rome as soon as the turn order allows.

7. The TSR Agreement ends when the Signing Faction with the highest Player Number has transferred 10 talents to one of its Senators. At that time, the Signing Factions may decide whether to continue, modify or terminate the Agreement, and (if it continues) whether to include new factions or drop out of the Agreement.

8. If the Agreement continues, the Signing Faction with the lowest Player Number that does not drop out of the Agreement becomes the Receiving Faction and the faction that currently holds the TSR Fund must transfer that Fund to the new Receiving Faction as soon as possible.

9. If the Agreement is terminated, any remaining talents in the TSR Fund will be returned to the Signing Factions as evenly as possible, with dice rolls resolving any  disparities in distribution.

10.  Factions that drop out of the Agreement forfeit any talents in the TSR Fund and (if they currently hold it) must transfer it to the new Receiving Faction.

Note that this is an agreement, not a law. A faction can choose not to be in it but it can't 'vote' against it.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 10:49:47 AM
Let me add 6a: In the unlikely event that a Senator dies before he can donate his 10 talents and those talents are lost, that Senator's faction receives a 'sorry for your loss' contribution from the TSR Fund equal to two talents, as soon as the turn order allows.

(I don't know if personal money is lost when a Senator dies. The Living Rules say 'remove all markers' but I'm not sure if money counts as markers or if the fortune 'stays in the family'. If the money is not lost, then we can leave 6a out of the Agreement).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 11:29:39 AM
(I don't know if personal money is lost when a Senator dies. The Living Rules say 'remove all markers' but I'm not sure if money counts as markers or if the fortune 'stays in the family'. If the money is not lost, then we can leave 6a out of the Agreement).

Yes, personal money is normally lost when a senator dies, like any other chits or counters on him. There are two exceptions I can think of offhand:

1.) When the Early Provincial Era starts, all Latin and Italian Statesmen already on the board will retire, and be discarded out of the game as if they had died. However, if their family is politically active by then (and thus collected under the Statesman), the family Senator will inherit all the counters. This is a rule instigated by the fan who designed the "Birth of the Republic" prologue expansion back in the days of the original Avalon Hill game, and it hasn't ever been incorporated into the Living Rules.

(There's a bit of confusion in his rules about this, however, since it seems like Cincinnatus will allow Flaminius to inherit, even though that isn't his family.)

2.) In the Faction rules I ginned up for the Conservatives, one of their special abilities is that their Statesmen always "retire" if their family Senator is already active in the game (and thus collected under them), allowing those Senators to inherit.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 11:48:19 AM
On the proposed rule 6 (and 6a revision) of the public contract: potential problems here can be avoided if a Player simply cannot transfer cash out of his Faction's TSR counter until the Revenue Phase, at which time during their rounds the Players are allowed to redistribute cash between their senators and their Faction Treasury as they see fit. (For practical equivalency, I simply pre-collect all cash in the Faction along with generated income, into the Player's Faction Treasury during the first segment of that Phase, from which they can distribute back out as they wish.)

At the time when they can distribute Faction cash back out, their TSR counter's cash would be released for distribution, too, according to their instructions to me, whereupon I'd make sure those 10 Talents got spend out of the senator's Treasury as a donation to the Republic with the consequential Influence pip. (Plus any other donations they instructed me to transfer of course.) It's impossible for a senator to die during the Revenue Phase; and if the donations don't transfer to the senator until then, it wouldn't matter if every senator died -- the cash would still be safe in a Treasury pocket (on a special counter dedicated for this purpose) on the Faction's sideboard.

(If a player is aggressive enough to try assassinating someone with their final senator, and he gets caught and dies in the attempt, all his cash is going to be forfeit to the bank one way or another, even if the other Players vote for clemency to allow the misbehaving Player to remain in the game -- since the threat of losing the game individually discourages people from trying to trim other Players down to one senator, too, by spamming assassination attempts with their otherwise semi-immortal Faction Leader. But in that ultra-rare case, I'd simply transfer that Player's TSR cash to the next available receiver and spread it out downstream that way.)

It shouldn't be necessary for the Player to move excess out of his TSR counter to the next Faction in line at this time (or ever): when a Player tells me they're making their TSR donation for this Turn, then I would move it out of their Faction cash into the current Receiver, and whenever that reaches 10 then I'd start transferring any excess cash to the next valid Receiver around the table.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 12:23:37 PM
So we can drop 6a and interpret rule 6 to mean that a faction will transfer to its Senator in the Revenue Phase and then (in the same Revenue Phase) donate to Rome. Therefore the TSR money can never be lost before it's donated.

By your interpretation of rule 5, there won't be any transfer from faction to faction, if the fund is at 8 talents (for example) and there's 4 factions in the Agreement, contributing 8 talents, you'll give 2 of those talents to the current faction to make 10 (which they'll transfer to their Senator + donate as soon as they can) and then you'll give the remaining 6 talents to the next faction in order. Did I get it right?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 12:39:28 PM
So we can drop 6a and interpret rule 6 to mean that a faction will transfer to its Senator in the Revenue Phase and then (in the same Revenue Phase) donate to Rome. Therefore the TSR money can never be lost before it's donated.

Right.

By your interpretation of rule 5, there won't be any transfer from faction to faction, if the fund is at 8 talents (for example) and there's 4 factions in the Agreement, contributing 8 talents, you'll give 2 of those talents to the current faction to make 10 (which they'll transfer to their Senator + donate as soon as they can) and then you'll give the remaining 6 talents to the next faction in order. Did I get it right?

Correct.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 03:53:36 PM
OK, rewriting 5 and 6 then:

5. If donations to the TSR Fund during the Revenue Phase bring it to 10 talents, the Receiving Faction will transfer those 10 talents to its Senator with the least amount of Popularity in the same Revenue Phase. It may choose between Senators if there is a tie for least popularity. Any remaining Talents to be received in that Revenue Phase go to the Signing Faction with the next lowest Player Number, and that other faction becomes the Receiving Faction.

6. When a faction transfers 10 talents to one of its Senators during a Revenue Phase, that Senator must donate those 10 talents to Rome in the same Revenue Phase.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 04:09:39 PM
5. If donations to the TSR Fund during the Revenue Phase bring it to 10 talents,

...I was going to tweak that phrasing, since donations of cash from Faction to Faction can occur at any time (now that we've reached the Revolution Phase of Turn One); but they don't fully arrive until the Revenue Phase, so the wording still works.

When a faction transfers 10 talents to one of its Senators during a Revenue Phase, that Senator must donate those 10 talents to Rome in the same Revenue Phase.

Strictly speaking, that would be if the Talents come from the Faction's TSR purse. Someone might distribute 10 Talents to a senator for some other reasons, like spending 5 on bribing a senator to join the Faction and also spending 5 to ensure a knight joins a senator.


Meanwhile, I'm finally home from work, and I can work on catching up the map and mats.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 03, 2018, 04:50:42 PM
I think it is an interesting proposal and I am glad you suggested it. 

It is, effectively, a taxation system.  I am not familiar enough with the game to be comfortable with such a system personally and my inclination would be to table it until we have played a few rounds.

Ö.But, if we don't have clear interest in it in the short run, I think we can safely table it for this turn and keep it on the potential agenda for next.

Put the conservatives in the "table it until we have some more turns behind us" category. I am such a newbie, it is hard for me to see the benefit yet.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 04:58:16 PM
The only benefit is that it would encourage senators to donate to the Republic's Treasury at a time when the Republic can be punched out financially (or hanging by a Plutocrat thread ;) ), by arranging the donations in such a way that your donating senators will pick up a little Influence for doing so.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 05:27:46 PM
I have now slotted Erax into the game as the Progressive Faction:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4368/Moj8sd.jpg)

I'll zip into his sideboard in a minute. At this point, everyone except Erax has played all the Statesmen and/or Concessions they can or will play. So I'll do some catchup snapshots of the Faction mats.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7571/gwqdwb.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/59/M2kVTp.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5016/0hu3zm.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6651/GEvKrE.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/4749/6Q83VE.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/2879/oS1Mtb.png)


I've elected not to give any starting Faction cash to Malize or Erax, since no one has a lot of Faction cash yet anyway, and everyone's about to get income from the Revenue Phase anyway.

Depending on when-if-ever we pick up a 7th and 8th player, I may revisit this, since joining late might be a little too handicapped without some startup cash. This is only Turn 2 (upcoming) though.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 05:47:45 PM
Note: since Cincinnatus cannot Rebel (yet) against the Senate, the 4th Legion actually goes back to the Active Pool automatically. It shouldn't be in his snapshot, and I've adjusted on the mat accordingly while working on the first Phases of Turn Two.

Note: I've sent a p-mail to Erax concerning his two Faction cards, and he should play at least one of them. For asynchronous purposes, I'll hold open his ability to play valid cards from the Revolution Phase, until after he completes his round in the Revenue Phase. If he plays a Concession that would trigger during Revenue, I'll retroactively apply it.

Note: since there have been two preferences among 6 players to table Erax's public contract, I'm going to proceed along without it. It probably needs 5 Players to work correctly anyway, but if any number of Players want to join the contract, I'll make provisions to start implementing it.

Note: as with last Turn, there aren't any choices yet which would affect other Players during this Phase (barring the TSR contract, which could still be implemented this Revenue Phase, and which can still be played asynch really). So once again, I'll do the income report for each Player/Faction, and report your choice options, but any Player can report their choices to me at any time instead of waiting for Players to work around the Table.

Next up, I'll do the Faction incomes and report them, with each Faction's valid choice options.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 05:59:04 PM
Before the Revolution Phase ends, I'll play a Tax Concession card on Plautius.

If anyone who hasn't spoken up yet decides to join the contract this turn, we'll agree to put it in effect starting next turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 06:35:06 PM
TURN TWO -- MORTALITY PHASE

Kicking off Turn 2! No Immanent Wars to Activate.  Family #21 suffers a death, but they arenít politically active yet.

REVENUE PHASE segment one, Faction incomes.

I have decided that perhaps the best balance for incoming Players will be to grant 1 Talent x Turn # of the upcoming (or current) Revenue Phase, to each of the two starting senators, as the Faction spawns in. Each senator of the Populist and Progressive Factions, then, gets 2 Talents for their personal treasuries. This will give new Factions something of a fighting chance, since their senators would hardly be doing nothing in the Turns before spawning in; but it wonít be as much income as even two actually playing senators would earn across the same Turns doing nothing (which would be 3 + 1 per Turn due to the Faction Leader getting benefits of being a Faction Leader. No Faction yet, no Faction Leader benefits!)

Keep in mind, when planning distributions back to your senators, that 5 Talents will guarantee persuading a knight to join one of your senators as a minion this Turn!

Aristocrats: 3 starting cash, +2 from personal treasuries, +3 income from Faction Leader, +2 income from all other senators, +0 from knights, +3 from Valeriusí Harbor Fees = 13 Talents. (No corruption marker yet since prosecutions still impossible.) Distribute cash to senators; and then declare any contributions from them to Rome. You have enough cash for 1 senator to earn 1 Influence by donating 10 Talents.

Militarists: 0 starting cash, +2 from personal treasuries, +3 +1 income from senators, +1 from knights = 7 Talents. Distribute cash to senators; and declare any contributions from them to Rome.

Plutocrats: 4 starting cash, +0 from personal treasuries, +5 +1 income from senators (Plutocrat Leaders earn +5 not +3), +2 cash from knights, +2 more cash from knights (Plutocrat ability) = 14 Talents. Distribute to your senators; and declare any contributions from them to Rome. You have enough for 1 senator to earn 1 Inf.

Conservatives: 2 starting cash, +1 from personal treasuries, +3 +3 income from senators, +0 from knights, +0 from concessions = 9 Talents. Distribute to your senators; and then declare any contributions from them to Rome.

Populists: 0 starting cash, +4 from personal treasuries (1 Talent per starting senator x Turn 2), +3 +1 income from senators, +0 from knights, +3 from Aureliusí Mining Concession (no corruption yet) = 11 Talents. Distribute to your senators; and then declare any contributions from them to Rome. You have enough for 1 senator to earn 1 Inf.

Progressives: 0 starting cash, +4 from personal treasuries (1 Talent per starting senator x Turn 2), +3 +1 income from senators (it doesn't matter which senator is Faction Leader yet), +0 from knights, +2 from Plautius' Tax Concession (no corruption yet) = 10 Talents. Distribute to your senators; and then declare any contributions from them to Rome. You have enough for 1 senator to earn 1 Inf.



Exar, technically you have to choose which senator you want to be your Faction Leader when your Faction spawns in, but since specifically who is leader doesn't matter at the moment, and since you'll soon have a choice to assign or confirm the Leadership anyway, I've moved along without needing your choice on that yet. You can safely wait until your round of the Forum Phase to choose.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 06:41:48 PM
Before the Revolution Phase ends, I'll play a Tax Concession card on Plautius.

Noted and adjusted.

If y'all make the contract during this segment of the Revenue Phase, I'll count it for this Turn, and people can make donations immediately to the first valid participant(s) during this segment. I'll set up TSR trackers for each participating Player.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 03, 2018, 06:58:32 PM
Flaminius gets Faction Leader.

If no one enters the contract, I'll distribute 5 talents to each Senator and leave 0 in the faction treasury.

If we get the contract going this turn, I'll give Flaminius 5 talents, donate 2 to the contract and keep 3 in the faction treasury.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 03, 2018, 07:35:09 PM
Apparently, we all need to announce whether we are playing (or trading or discarding) any cards.  I am not playing (or trading or discarding) any cards.   

The frog stands pat.   
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 03, 2018, 07:41:21 PM
"Plutocrats: 4 starting cash, +0 from personal treasuries, +5 +1 income from senators (Plutocrat Leaders earn +5 not +3), +2 cash from knights, +2 more cash from knights (Plutocrat ability) = 14 Talents. Distribute to your senators; and declare any contributions from them to Rome. You have enough for 1 senator to earn 1 Inf."

That being the case, I will spend to get one senator to earn 1 inf.  I belive that is done by giving 10 talents to Appius and then he donates to to rome? 

Assuming that's corect, the remaining four will stay as faction cash.  It's getting to where I should actually read the rules to this game...
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 07:49:40 PM
Eth, yep that's a valid move, I'll log it.  O0

Erax's optional fork is noted; I'll resolve it later once everyone has weighed in.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 03, 2018, 07:59:48 PM
Flaminius gets Faction Leader.

Oh, incidentally, I figured out what the original "Birth of the Republic" guy meant when he said that Flaminius inherits from Cincinnatus. He didn't mean the Flaminia family Senator; he meant a different Statesman from Cinc's family with the cognomen Flaminius.

So the way that would work is this: if Cinc's actual family is already politically active by the time the Early Era starts, then the family Senator inherits just like for everyone's pre-Early Statesmen. (Also, any other pre-Early Statesmen not yet played get discarded.) But it's possible that Statesman Flam, who is an Early Era Statesmen, could get played to kick off the Era. (I'll explain later how and why that happens, don't worry for now.) In that case, all of Cinc's counters go to him, even if Cinc's family has already been played active; Flam gets played onto the family, replacing Cinc. Or if the family isn't active yet, Flam just replaces Cinc and then collects the family whenever they show up (if Flam lives long enough).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 03, 2018, 08:18:59 PM
Populist faction will distribute 4 to each senator (giving both of them 5) and each will buy a knight

The remaining talent will go in the secret faction purse
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 04, 2018, 03:21:15 AM
Apparently, we all need to announce whether we are playing (or trading or discarding) any cards.  I am not playing (or trading or discarding) any cards.

Same goes for the Progressives.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 04, 2018, 05:49:16 AM

Militarists: 0 starting cash, +2 from personal treasuries, +3 +1 income from senators, +1 from knights = 7 Talents. Distribute cash to senators; and declare any contributions from them to Rome.

Manlius will get 5 talents and spend it on a knight.  Julius will take two talents
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 04, 2018, 06:17:56 AM
Apparently, we all need to announce whether we are playing (or trading or discarding) any cards.  I am not playing (or trading or discarding) any cards.

Same goes for the Progressives.

 :o ...uh, you already told me to play one of your cards, and where: Tax Concession 2.

Before the Revolution Phase ends, I'll play a Tax Concession card on Plautius.

And I triggered it as part of your Revenue.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 04, 2018, 11:11:28 AM
:o ...uh, you already told me to play one of your cards, and where: Tax Concession 2.

And I triggered it as part of your Revenue.

I thought you'd done that retroactively as part of last turn, sorry! In any event I won't play any more cards this turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 04, 2018, 02:54:22 PM
The confusion is understandable. The Frog was backposting from the Revolution Phase and catching up, so that's why he was clarifying he wasn't playing anything. (Which I happened to know already, which is why I had gone onward into Turn Two.)

No one can play any Faction cards right now, although I did retroactively play your Concession which I knew you'd want to do and was holding open the opportunity as asynchronous lag when I moved the clock forward (since that wasn't going to hurt anything).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 04, 2018, 03:26:03 PM
5 to Cornelius, 2 each to Cincinnatus and Valerius.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 04, 2018, 03:51:33 PM
I'm home from work, and working on updating.

At this point I think I'm only missing AzTank's distribution choice: your new tally is 9 Talents in your Faction Treasury, which you can spread back among your Treasury and your senators as you wish.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 05, 2018, 01:04:47 PM
2 to each of my guys.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 01:14:32 PM
Got it; I'll port those in when I get home this afternoon.

I implemented everyone else's distributions last night, including a slight revision requested by the Frog (now 12 for Appius and 2 for Fulvius, so that each will have 2 after Appius donates to the Republic, which I also implemented); and since no one has yet agreed to Erax's contract proposal, I split the Progressive distribution along his first option of 5/5.

Next up, I'll be running the 3rd segment of the Revenue Phase automatically where I'll be resolving income and expenses for the Republic. Theoretically everyone could lose the game here, but (1) I think on the balance the Republic will have a nice increase this turn (partly thanks to responsible generosity from the Plutocrats, go team!  :clap: ), and (2) the Plutocrats still hold the HRAO (with Appius present as Roman Consul), so even if expenses did trigger below 0 somehow, the Senate would survive.

Once I've reported the results on that, I'll discard all currently active Events fro the Forum, and we'll start the Forum Phase. (But I'll keep the Agrarian Event marked off to the side with a Land Bill 1 marker, for a few turns, as a reminder for reasons I'll explain again in a minute.)

To recap for anyone still unfamiliar with the game, each player will take a round around the table, starting with the Frog's Plutocrats (as the HRAO player), rolling dice to see whether you generate a Random Event, or whether you pull the next Scenario card from the deck; and, if so, whether it's a red-text "Faction" card, which you'll get to keep secret face-down (but I'll p-mail you to tell you about it, and when you'll be able to play it), or whether it's a black-text "Forum" card, which gets played publicly face-up to the Forum.

I can tell you that there are no more families left in the Latin Era to activate this way -- if anyone else joins the game, I'll be pulling the first such families available from the Italian Era now. So aside from Acilius hanging out in the Forum, waiting to see if anyone has enough influence and/or cash to persuade him to join, the current players won't have any more opportunities to pick up Senator families for a while. Whether there are still any pre-Early Statesmen to turn up and play, remains to be seen.

Y'all have preemptively dealt with two more of the coming historical Events, too: the Plebian Secessions. Those would normally generate or stack Drought effects, but thanks to your first Land Bill coming so early, those droughts will be avoided. (Historically of course it's the other way around, the droughts induced a "plebian" faction to camp out on one of Rome's first two hills, the Aventine if I recall correctly, as a protest. This eventually inspired all non-patrician citizens to be called plebians.) So whenever those get drawn in our track through Republican history -- and they will before we're out of the Latin Era -- then I'll simply announce them, and discard them with a reminder for why you don't have to worry about them anymore. And then once both of them are toast, then I'll discard my Agrarian Unrest reminder, too.

I have pondered whether to just remove the two Secession Events (really Drought Events) from the Scenario deck since they're going to be voided now anyway, thus speeding up the history of the game a little more, but... well, y'all might be glad if something is only a voided Drought! The Republic has parried attempts by some rival towns in Latium from taking back Rome (and its nearby allied cities like the Ostia port) for the kingship of Tarquinius, but there are other neighbors agitating nearby in the hills and vales of central Italy, and a big historical disaster in the portents (which those familiar with early Republican history can probably guess at)!

The birthing pangs of the Republic have only just begun.

{goes next to the internet to find a WH40K "prepare thyselves" meme}{the internet somehow fails me!}{faith in internet decreases  #:-) }
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 05, 2018, 02:01:11 PM
Will this do?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 02:33:32 PM
...acceptable!  :bd:
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 04:26:30 PM
Third segment, Republic income report:

Treasury starts with 36 Talents,
+30 base income = 66,
-0 no Active War
-20 Land Bill Type 1 (now paid off, goes away) = 46,
(1 Legion x 2 Talents=) -2 unit upkeep = 44,
+25 Talents donated from Allied Enthusiasm Event =

69 Talents new total.  :bd: <:-)

You may thank the Frog's Plutocrats for 10 of that!

All Events in the Forum deactivate. (I'm keeping Agrarian Unrest off to the side to remind me to void the Pleb Succs Events when they arrive. ;) )

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 04:42:39 PM
TURN TWO -- FORUM PHASE
--------------------------------

The Frog's Plutocrats are up to bat first. He rolls a 9, so doesn't crap out a random Event. He burns the 494 BCE Plebian Secession out of the deck! -- no drought, thanks to the Senate's foresighted Land Bill policies.  :clap:

The Frog should now choose any or all of the following options, in any order.

1.) Declare a new Faction Leader. Currently it's Appius Claudius. Fulvius would be his only other option currently.

2.) Choose a senator to try to persuade a knight to join that senator as his minion. Claudius has 2 knights, Fulvius 0. Each has 2 Talents, so either one has a 3:6 chance or 50/50 maximum chance, if all Talents are spent on the persuasion.

3.) Try to persuade Acilius, the family Senator hanging out in the Forum unattached, to join the Plutocrats. Appius Claudius would be the best bet for this attempt. The Frog will need to roll Ora 5 + Inf 9 - Loy 7 = 7 or less on a 2d6, which is a dang good 50/50 shot totally for free. You can bump that up to rolling 9 or less by adding Appius' 2 Talents.

If you do decide to try, the Aristocrats (with 4 Talents), the Conservatives (with 1), and/or the Populists (ditto), could try a counter-bribe against you. If they do, you'll have one chance to add any more Talents from Appius. (Not from your Faction Treasury, but you have 0 remaining anyway.)

Of course, Acilius will keep any such donated money in any case, making him that much harder to Persuade in the future -- but then again, if he joins you then you get control of all his Personal Treasury, too!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 05, 2018, 04:49:06 PM
1) I will keep the same faction leader.
2) Fulvius will spend 2 talents to try and get a Knight.
3) Appius will spend 2 talents to make that a 9, unless others decide to spend me down.  I assume that, if people decide to pay to lower my chances, then that is money they can't spend to raise their own chances later in the turn if I fail. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 04:53:05 PM
1) I will keep the same faction leader.
2) Fulvius will spend 2 talents to try and get a Knight.
3) Appius will spend 2 talents to make that a 9, unless others decide to spend me down.  I assume that, if people decide to pay to lower my chances, then that is money they can't spend to raise their own chances later in the turn if I fail.

Ehhh.... not exactly. Counter-bribes get paid by other Factions from their Faction Treasuries; Bribes for Persuasion are paid from a senator's Personal Treasury. So their senators would still have whatever cash available to try (that they don't spend elsewhere, on minion attempts for example.)

However, if they do try counterbribing you, they will have either made it that much harder for anyone including themselves to Persuade Acilius afterward, or they will have basically given you their cash if you win.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 05:02:45 PM
This, by the way, leads to the question of whether there's any way to speed up the counter-bribe process any.

I've taken one step by house ruling that, for asynch play, Factions get only one chance to counter-bribe against a Persuasion attempt. (There are Faction card which prevent counter-bribe attempts outright, typically by sex.  ^-^ i.e. "Marriage" and "Seduction" Intrigue cards.) In board play, if the Persuader adds Talents after the counter-bribes, everyone gets another shot at counter-bribing again, until there are no more bids.

I think it's important for balancing purpose that there be at least one round of counter-bribing, but if there's a unanimous vote by the Players to sacrifice this for the game, I'd accept that.  O:-)

Another way of speeding things up a little, would be for Players to declare in advance, during the preceding Revenue Phase, how much of their remaining Faction Treasury they'd devote to counter-bribes automatically, perhaps under what circumstances. For example, the Frog might declare he's setting aside 2 Talents from the Faction Treasury to counter-bribe attempts on picking up Maximinius specifically, but he'd ignore attempts on Acilius. Those "devoted" Talents wouldn't pay out unless the conditions triggered, and then after the Forum Phase they'd be available again (or if the Player specifically used them 'manually' for something else of course. A few Event emergencies can hit particular officers, and their Faction might need to help bail them out.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 05:03:54 PM
Meanwhile, let's see if Fulvius gets his first minion!

Normally a 6 on a 1d6, but sacrificing 2 Talents lowers that to 4 or greater, 50/50 chance. 3 or less, failure.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 2, total 2[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 05:05:16 PM
 #:-) Sorry, no go for the minion this Turn. It was a reasonable try.

Edited to add: I'll check in occasionally through the night, but I'll give at least 14 hours for players to weigh yea or nay on the counter-bribe. So sometime after 8am tomorrow morning I'll proceed with the roll. (Appius is already spending all his Talents, so he'd have nothing more to offset any counter-bribes, so no need to wait for the Frog after that.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 05, 2018, 05:16:07 PM
The Progressive faction treasury is empty and therefore they do not counter-bribe.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 05, 2018, 05:30:37 PM
The populists have no interest in impeding others attempts to obtain Acilius this turn.

Ooc: before things get too much further on jp, maybe consider a ďhistory threadĒ that chronicles chronologically the high points of our campaign?

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 05:44:10 PM
I was thinking about a video AAR.  ^-^
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 05, 2018, 07:20:18 PM


{goes next to the internet to find a WH40K "prepare thyselves" meme}{the internet somehow fails me!}{faith in internet decreases  #:-) }
How about this?: (https://i.imgur.com/MUk5OF1.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 05, 2018, 07:50:21 PM
Agh, too close to real life!!  :timeout: :wow:

....


.......

 >:D :bd:
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 06, 2018, 06:15:24 AM
Are we allowed to check how many cards are left in the Forum Deck?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 10:27:56 AM
Are we allowed to check how many cards are left in the Forum Deck?

Yes, although I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, so I'll be detailed.  ^-^

(You yourself may know most or all of this already, but many players here are learning RepubRome for the first time, so this is for tutorial benefit.)

So, to be specific: there is one overarching "Scenario Deck", running from the start to the end of the game (or however far the Senate gets before the end).

This Scenario Deck features two types of cards, broadly speaking: red-text "Faction" cards, which get given to Players when they're drawn, and black-text "Forum" cards, which get played immediately to the board, openly and publicly. All wars, for example, are black-text cards from the Scenario deck -- thus "Forum" cards which get played to the Forum. (On the board, the "Forum" area is the map of the Mediterranean world with a grid over it, but the map is just there to look nice and give players a visual reference of how the provinces relate to each other and to Italy.)

These "Faction" and "Forum" cards (and there are varieties of each kind) get shuffled together semi-randomly to form the Scenario Deck.

But the Scenario Deck itself gets sorted, during the shuffle process, into rough historical periods called Eras. So those become sub-decks. The three main "eras" of the game are Early, Middle, and Late. The fan-made expansions add Latin, Italian before Early, and Civil War after Late.

I'll zoom in to where I parked the Era decks in TTS:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/5092/g9vrBZ.jpg)

Each Era has a border color around its cards, which I tried to match with text colors in TTS (but black doesn't show up very well for the Civil War Era, which I sometimes call Final Crisis.) Right now we're playing with Yellow/Latin cards, and also some White/Early cards.

You can see on the snapshot that I've turned on the deck-counter in TTS, which is showing that 13 Scenario cards remain in the Latin Era. Some are red Faction cards, some are black Forum cards.

Now, this much is all public knowledge, so I don't try to hide it in overall snapshots, and I can report it on request.

What I can't tell you, is how many remain of red or black cards, or specific cards within those groups, in any Era.

Except, if we were at a table at a conference, you'd see me picking up the Latin deck (in effect) and pulling out a few Faction cards and a few family Senators for new players after we started the game: new players get the first available such cards remaining in the decks.

And so you'd see that I'm already going into the Italian Era to pick up family Senators for Erax! That means, by deduction, there are no more family Senators in the Latin Era deck.

So again by deduction, Acilius up there is the last family Senator which Players who are already in the game will have a chance of picking up for a while!

For how long? -- and this gets to Erax's question, I think. There are 13 Scenario cards left in the Latin Deck. As many as 6 of those will be dealt-or-played out each Turn, because we have 6 players now -- but we started this Phase with 14, and the Plutocrats rolled to pull a Scenario card and burned one of the two Plebian Secession historical Events out of the Deck. Which isn't useful, except that it isn't a War!  O0 And it would have created a Drought effect which would have caused Unrest, except that y'all dealt with that early by a majority vote to pass the first Land Bill.

Five Players remain, so you could get as many as five more cards dealt out, leaving 8 next turn.

This means that, even if two more players join next week (for the maximum 8 slots), the earliest you're going to see the Italian Era deck is Turn Four. But, because there's a random chance of rolling a random Event instead of pulling a Scenario card, that schedule isn't certain. It might be Turn Five instead (though it isn't likely to be later).

If you're curious about the other decks, there are 22 Italian Era scenarios; 33 Early Provincial; 46 Middle Provincial; 49 Late Provincial; and 14 Civil War scenarios. However, in the CW Era, the game-ending card has been shuffled somewhere into the final 6 cards, so it won't necessarily be all 14.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 10:48:23 AM
Okay, I haven't heard from I.I. or AzTank yet, and we're coming up on noon my time, and I'm done with morning chores (but I need to go eat soon), so I'll move the clock along.

As a reminder, for the Frog and for later players (if the Frog fails): to persuade a senator to join you, you need to roll lower than the target number. Sometimes this means it's simply impossible to pick up a senator regardless of what you do (which was most players last turn).

However! -- for balance sake, the rules are set up so that while it's possible to certainly get a knight, if you spend enough cash, it is NOT possible to spend enough money to certainly pick up a senator! This keeps rich players later in the game from paying to automatically steal senators out from other Players. (Which is also part of the reason for having counter-bribe ability.)

So, on a 2d6 roll, if you roll a natural total of 10, 11, or 12, you will automatically fail to persuade the senator (from trying too hard, so to speak.) Doesn't matter what any other factors are, those numbers will definitely fail. And any cash he was bribed or counter-bribed with, that senator gets to keep for himself in his personal treasury.

So, the first thing I do is transfer 2 Talents from Appius (the Plutocrats' best persuasion chance) to Acilius.

Here he is, hanging around in the "Forum" part of the gameboard, by the way:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4650/NITvFL.jpg)

You can see potential Legions in the Force Pool off to the upper right in that shot, in case you're wondering what those chips are. (Some of those Legions were recently destroyed fighting the 1st Latin War under Cincinnatus, which is why although he earned 1 Influence for beating that particular War, he lost a point of Influence for the costly victory.)

Next, as a reminder, I calculate the target sum, which equals Appius' Oratory 5 + his Influence 9 - Acilius' Loyalty 7 = +7 (If the number was negative, or zero, or even 1, it would be impossible to roll equal or less to it!)

That isn't bad, on a 2d6 roll, that's 50 percent or better for success.

Appius is adding all of his 2 Talents from his Personal Treasury to the attempt. That bumps the target total up to +9. Which, notice, is necessarily the maximum chance of winning this roll, because rolling a 10, 11, or 12, is an automatic fail!

So, 10, 11, or 12, always a fail, including this case.

But for this roll, 9 or less will win.

I'll roll it publicly here:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 3, 4, total 7[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 06, 2018, 10:55:08 AM
Thanks for the detailed explanation JP, that's what I wanted to know. So, the Latin Era deck has 13 cards left with up to 5 being drawn this turn. Without giving away too much, the best case scenario is that we get some bad cards to deal with now and some next turn, with some good events to help us along. The worst case scenario is that we get a lot of bad cards (and some bad events) all at once.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 10:58:41 AM
Appius wins with a 7! -- he didn't even need to spend his cash!

So, Acilius joins the Plutocrats, leaving the "Forum" part of the board.

Senators never gain anything from making a successful persuasion attempt -- Acilius isn't Appius' minion now for example. In fact, Appius has lost the 2 Talents he donated to Acilius! But the Frog may decide to adjust that at the Revenue Phase for the next Turn anyway.

Acilius, as you may be able to see from the prior screenshot, has an Influence of 3 and an Oratory of 2 (along with other stats), so the Plutocrats' normal vote tally goes up to 11: Appius' Ora 5 + Fulvius' Ora 2 + Acilius' Ora 2, + 2 knights.

And the Plutocrats' total Influence goes up to 17.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 11:00:41 AM
Thanks for the detailed explanation JP, that's what I wanted to know. So, the Latin Era deck has 13 cards left with up to 5 being drawn this turn. Without giving away too much, the best case scenario is that we get some bad cards to deal with now and some next turn, with some good events to help us along. The worst case scenario is that we get a lot of bad cards (and some bad events) all at once.

Exactly. Most historical Events are bad for the Republic, especially this early. In other words, the deck is trying to beat you all! -- and to tempt each of you into trying to win by yourself to save yourself. The random Events are 50/50 good or bad.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 11:11:29 AM
Next up, AzTank's Conservatives. He rolls a 7, which is a random Event, not a Scenario card draw.

Here's a zoom of the random event table:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8990/nQLKFu.jpg)

You may notice that the table is overlaying a different table on the board. That's because the random event chances/list for pre-Early eras is different from the E/M/L ears. (Civil War uses the Late Era list.) Also, up until the end of the Italian Era, if you roll a 15 for your random Event, Carthage donates 4 Fleets to your navy (even if you don't even need a fleet yet ;) ), as part of a treaty with them! (This sort of happened historically, too.) They take those fleets back, of course, once the 1st Punic War goes active, but that won't happen until sometime in the Early Era.

Anyway, this post will also test if I can generate a random dice roll after I've already "previewed" the post, since the forum engine prevents tampering with the dice roll by editing the post afterward.

Random Events are a 3d6 total:

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 4, 6, 5, total 15[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 11:13:25 AM
 :DD :2funny: :DD :2funny:

I swear, I not only didn't manipulate that, I couldn't do so! Though come to think of it, I didn't test previewing the post with the dice roll code either.

This roll won't count, but I'll do it now for my own testing purposes.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 6, total 6[/blockquote]

When I previewed this post with the code, it showed rolling a 3 on a 1d6.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 11:21:37 AM
Edited to edit! -- never mind, I didn't read the rule closely enough. Carthage only donates you 4 fleets if you roll a 15 during the Italian Era.

But Allied Enthusiasm is a great random event, arguably much better than 4 Fleets you'd have to pay to upkeep but can't use for a while anyway! It means that next Turn, your allies will donate another 25 Talents to the Republic.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 11:39:25 AM
So, it's AzTank's round now to manage his senators. Here's a recap of your sidebar.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2995/4EdHCE.jpg)

Each of your senators has 2 cash. No one has a knight as their minion yet. Any senator has a maximum 50/50 chance to do so if he pays all 2 Talents. (Players are limited to one knight persuasion chance per Turn.)

No family senators remain in the Forum to try to persuade. Any other Players' senator will instantly subtract 7 points along with subtracting his loyalty score AND subtracting point for his personal cash (if any); all of which you'd have to overcome to even have a chance of persuading him to join you instead.

Currently the most vulnerable target then is Fulvius of the Plutocrats, with a Loyalty of 8 and no personal cash. -8 -7 = -15. None of your senators has enough combined Ora, Inf, and cash, to even possibly persuade him.


So, your only choices this Turn, for your Forum Round, are:

1.) Do you want one of your senators to try for a knight, and if so sacrifice how much cash to try?

2.) Do you want to change your Faction Leader?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 06, 2018, 03:41:27 PM
Fabius will spend 2 to try for a knight.

no other action
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 03:50:20 PM
Y'okay, let's do it!

Needs a 4 or better to win (cash will be sacrificed either way).

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 3, total 3[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 03:57:09 PM
Close but no minion!

Time for newcomer Malize and the Populist Faction.

Roll to see if it's a random event or a card draw:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 5, 5, total 10[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 04:12:13 PM
Not 7, so it's a card draw.

It's actually one of the few good historical Events! -- the Spolia Opima! (While the Birth of Republic rules mention this card, there's no description for it so I had to make something up based on its historical application.)

The Spolia Opima, or best spoils, was awarded to a general early in the Republic's history (I forget offhand who, but I think during the victory over Rome's neighbor Veii, one of the Etruscan major cities). It was only ever awarded twice again, so far as we know, and never near to one another -- the last time was the 1st or 2nd century CE, if I recall correctly. (I don't have my reference book handy.) So it's basically a legendary epic conquest reward, that you wouldn't normally see for several lifetimes. Consequently, there's only one in this game.

The Event hangs around in the Forum until the next Victory against any War with an Enemy Leader. (A Victory with no Enemy doesn't trigger it.) The senator who gains the Victory adds an extra 5 Influence, 5 Popularity, and 5 Talentons, beyond any other stat/chip adjustments!

This is an awesome early Victory reward! -- though of course it also represents the game trying to tempt players to compete with each other at the possible expense of the Republic's survival.  >:D


Neither of the new Populist senators has enough Oratory + Influence + cash to even possibly persuade out any of the three most vulnerable senators from other players (Fulvius of the Plutocrats, and two of the Conservatives' senators): you'd have to beat a negative adjustment of -15, and only Brutus has an Ora 3 + Inf 7 + 5 cash to even equal 15. So you'd have to roll a 0 or less on a 2d6. ;)

(Note that once Conservative senators start winning knights, each of their knights adds 1 more resistance to being persuaded away by other players.)

Your senators each have enough cash (5 Talents) to guarantee persuading one knight, though. So your choices are:

1.) Which senator do you want to go for the knight? (And do you want to spend all 5 Talents trying?)

and

2.) Do you want to change your Faction Leader from Lucius Junius Brutus to Aurelius?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 06, 2018, 07:44:08 PM
No leader change

Let Brutus burn 5 and get himself a knight
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 08:20:07 PM
Done!

Erax's Progressives next.

Rolls the 2d6 for Scenario or Random Event:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 3, 1, total 4[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 06, 2018, 08:40:18 PM
Not 7, so it's a Scenario card.

The famous, or infamous, Roman traitor general Gaius Marcius Coriolanus, of the Shakespeare tragedy, is drawn! -- he'll lead the Volscian War, unless he dies a natural death first. He goes to the Curia to wait upon history.

He earned his cognomen, or nickname, for successfully besieging the Volscian city of Corioli. But a grain shortage led to a debate within the Senate about how to assign resources, and Marc argued that the Senate should only distribute grain if the concessions to the first Plebian Secession were reversed. This led, understandably, to a popular revolt, and the Senate generally agreed that he should be convicted of something to calm the populace, but otherwise dealt with mercifully. Rather than accept this dishonor, he quietly left the territory before conviction, and defected to the Volsci, who had been impressed with his siegecraft (obviously) and also with his relative mercy in his victory. He eventually led the Volsci to besiege Rome, intending to become king, but his wife and mother came out to plead for the city, and in his mercy he pulled back the Volscian troops, after which he disappears from history, his fate unknown. (Modern scholars are generally more than a little sceptical of these events, for various reasons, aside from hostility with the Volsci.)

It's nicely coincidental that we drew him right after the Agrarian Unrest led Rome to pass its first Land Bill, voiding the first Plebian Secession drawn on this Turn!

Here's a quick, slightly not-updated recap of the Progressives:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/2879/oS1Mtb.png)

Actually, there's no cash in the Faction purse, and each senator has 5 Talents.

It's impossible for either senator to even try persuading another Player's senator to defect, so the only choices are:

1.) Which senator do you want to try for a knight, and how many Talents do you want him to sacrifice for his chances?

2.) Do you want to change your Faction Leadership?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 07, 2018, 01:35:14 AM
Flaminius burns 5 for a guaranteed knight.

No change in leadership.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 07:49:33 AM
Done! Normal vote tally up 1 to 4. (Your senators suck at Oratory so far.)

I.I.'s Aristocrats next, rolling:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 3, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 08:41:20 AM
Not a 7, so it's a Scenario card.

Well, anyone who knows the Republic's early history could guess this was coming...!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7634/hYLut1.jpg)

Somewhat sooner than later, for our game purposes, but the northern barbarians sack Rome (historically in 390 BCE).

First, the Republic's Treasury loses 30 Talents, down to 39 -- so this was about the best possible time to be sacked, really, especially with another random Allied Enthusiasm on the way next Turn to make up most of that loss (+25).

Then Unrest increases by 3 points to 3. Not possible to automatically lose yet, but you could possibly get down to the next worst thing. (though that's super-unlikely). What you can be sure of, is that Unrest won't decrease when Appius Claudius gives his State of the Republic speech -- he just doesn't have the popularity for it. (His Pop is still 0, neutral.)

Last but not least, 3 Mortality Chits are drawn.

In this case, families 9, 12, and 14.

14's family isn't politically active yet, but Acilius the new senator for the Plutocrats, and Aurelius of the Populists, are both taken Captive. They must be ransomed, at either 2*Inf or at least 10 Talents each, by the end of the next Forum Phase on Turn 3, or they die. Meanwhile they count as away from Rome, meaning they canít affect Influence or the vote tally; nor can they take any action in the Senate; nor can their personal cash be used for anything other than ransoming.

Which means, since they each had some cash, that Acilius needs 8 to live; and Aurelius needs 5. (That personal cash will definitely be spent for ransom.)

They can be ransomed at any time, but the ransom must be paid by the Faction from the Faction Treasury. Other Players can donate of course (from their Factions Treasuries, not from Personal Treasuries), but the cash will be put in the delayed boxes until next Revenue Phase.

Until ransomed, those senators are regarded as away from Rome, so their votes and influence are deducted. They can take no action during the Senate Phase (and no action at all until ransomed); cannot be given anything; their cash cannot be used for anything but the ransom; if they had minions, they wouldn't act without direction (so wouldn't vote whether normally or with activist powers); and they cannot earn income in any way (including by Aurelius' Concession). Neither of them have an office, but they wouldn't automatically lose any major or minor office (aside from normal Senate procedure).

This procedure is the same when a general is taken captive in a war, too, except the repay must be made before the War is defeated.

For topicality's sake, I'll move to I.I.'s choices in the next post.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 08:47:11 AM
Cornelius (the Faction Leader) has the best chance of persuading anyone, but even his score altogether would be only +13 vs the current minimum -15 of the most vulnerable player senators, so that choice is impossible this time.

No senator has a knight yet. Cincinnatus and Valerius each have 2 Talents, and Cornelius has 5. I.I. didn't specifically say earlier during distribution that he would do an automatic minion for Cornelius, so I'll have to see a public decision about that.

Also, you can change Faction Leader now (for free, automatic success, as always).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 07, 2018, 08:50:14 AM
Cornelius will drop all his cash on a knight.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 09:19:45 AM
Done! -- the Aristocrat's normal vote tally goes up to 8. At the moment your 15 total Influence is being beaten by the Conservatives at 16, so your knight will only get a normal extra vote, not an activist double vote. But this could change during the Senate Phase.

Last but not least, Tripoli's Militarist Faction! Rolling for deck or event:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 3, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 09:32:52 AM
Not 7, so it's a Scenario card. It's the second and last Plebian Secession! (This one historically in 449 BCE.) It doesn't create a Drought event, thanks to your Agrarian Unrest Land Bill, and so is simply discarded. So is the Agrarian Event reminder now.

This leaves 9 cards in the Latin Era deck, which means it'll be Turn Four at least before the Italian Era starts. It also means, y'all are about to be socked with your remaining Latin Wars arriving all together over the next two or maybe three turns. Or even over the next one turn!

Neither Manlius nor Julius is mox enough yet to even possibly persuade anyone else's senator to join the Militarists.

Tripoli left prior instructions that Manly's 5 Talents should be used to automatically persuade a knight, and that's what happens. Normal votes increase to 7, and Manliusí Military skill increases to 6 -- which by normal rules is literally un-possible!  :D Ah, the benefits of being able to train your minions to serve as your Headquarters staff.  O0

Presumably Tripoli keeps Manlius as his Faction Leader, but if not I'll retcon that for you within a reasonable time frame. Just let me know.

With this, the Forum Phase ends, and the clock starts for ransoming those two senators before the end of the Forum Phase next Turn.

I'll do the Population Phase soon, and the start of the Senate Phase, by early this afternoon my time.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 12:05:55 PM
POPULATION PHASE
----------------------

Population phase mechanics: no major corruption markers yet. No threat of Concession destruction yet. No destroyed Concessions or family Senators to respawn yet. Roll 1d6 for each Aging Enemy Leader, discard if >=5.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 6, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 12:13:56 PM
Wow! -- Coriolanus drops dead before his War arrives! That'll be handy!

Time for Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats to open the Senate with his State of the Republic speech!

3d6 roll, minus 3, plus 0 for Appius' Popularity.

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 3, 4, 6, total 13[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 12:24:24 PM
13-3=10 adjusted result. This adds +1 to the Unrest level, but nothing else, now up to 4.

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 12:41:58 PM
SENATE PHASE begins!
-----------------

I'll post snapshot updates of the current state of the gameboard and mats:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7290/WwdXss.jpg)

Not actually much happening this Turn, so the Senate Phase should be easier than last time! I'll report specific relevant stats soon.


(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/916/eCraIh.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8379/xzHgPG.jpg)

The Frog's Plutocrats:
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2286/7G7sdD.jpg)

ArizonaTank's Conservatives:
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/1824/d6fq7C.jpg)

Malize's Populists:
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/3086/BY9TO5.jpg)

Erax's Progressives:
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6607/h5Jx2p.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 07, 2018, 12:48:24 PM
We may have to run some Games next turn before Unrest rises any more.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 01:13:46 PM
Relevant information:

1 Active Legion; 6 potential Legions in Force Pool.

39 Talents in the Republic's Treasury, with an extra 25 on the way next Turn beyond the normal income factors.

There are no Wars in view, yet. (The doors of the Temple of Mars have been shut for now. Or was it Janus...?)

You can generally expect nearby cities to start agitating for War within the next few Turns. But Coriolanus died in exile before he could lead one of those Wars, so that's helpful!

Two senators are being held hostage by the barbarians who sacked Rome, but there isn't anything the Senate can officially do about that. (Also, it's impossible to strike back at the barbarians. For now, they're beyond Rome's reach. ...for now.  ^-^ That'll change a few generations later, in the Provincial periods.)

There are still only two Senatorial offices, the Roman and Field Consuls.

The only Mandatory Business this Turn will be to elect a new pair of Consuls. Only the current Consuls, Cincinnatus and Appius, are ineligible for nomination. The two captive senators are not in Rome, so can't be nominated either. Prior Consul Fulvius of the Plutocrats is eligible again.

For non-Mandatory business, you could disband your remaining 4th Legion if you really wanted to, but you'd only end up needing to raise it again sooner than its disbanding would save money on.

Another non-Mandatory option open right now is to raise new Legions. However, you'll have to pay upkeep on them next Revenue Phase, and you don't actually need any right now; and if you do need some next Turn (which is highly probable), you'll have time to raise and send them during the next Senate. Of course you might not have the cash next Turn, but if you spent the cash now you'd be even farther in the hole.

Your last non-Mandatory option would be to pass another land bill to try to reduce unrest to a more manageable level. The financial stresses aren't good for that, though: a Type 2 Land Bill reduces Unrest by 2 when it's passed, but you'll be paying upkeep of 5 Talents per Turn in perpetuity. A Type 3 Land Bill reduces Unrest by 3, but you'll be paying upkeep of 10 Talents. Note that you don't get a new Unrest drop each Turn! -- but you do have to keep paying each Turn. Repealing them later will bring back the same Unrest you reduced.

If you're feeling confident in staying financially solvent next Turn, you may consider voting for the Populist Statesman Lucius Junius Brutus as your new Roman Consul (and thus HRAO), since he'll add +4 to his Speech, plus his +1 Popularity to start the Senate next Turn, and so give you a small but real chance at reducing Unrest that way (and a little better chance to avoid the worst results).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 01:18:05 PM
We may have to run some Games next turn before Unrest rises any more.

Only senators can pay for Games, not the Republic itself, but that's certainly an option -- but someone will need to remember to assign enough cash distribution to make that work. Minimum is 7 Talents per senator. As many senators can sponsor games as they want, if they can afford it! Sponsoring senators pick up some Popularity for doing that, too: +1 for 7 Talents.

This choice will show up, for senators with enough cash (which hasn't happened yet), in the Forum Phase. (Technically Appius Claudius had enough cash previously at one point, but he donated it immediately to the Republic's Treasury so didn't have it anymore when the option for sponsoring games came up.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 01:18:50 PM
So: the only Mandatory business first!

The Frog must now propose two nominees for the new Roman and Field Consuls. Other Factions can discuss and make recommendations, both publicly and privately (by p-mail).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 07, 2018, 02:30:46 PM
There's a few events that may limit or even prevent us from raising legions, so I say we raise as many as possible this turn. I don't want to run the risk of multiple wars and no legions to raise. The 6-talent cost is worth it IMO.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 03:54:56 PM
There's a few events that may limit or even prevent us from raising legions, so I say we raise as many as possible this turn. I don't want to run the risk of multiple wars and no legions to raise. The 6-talent cost is worth it IMO.

Strictly speaking then, you can raise 3 legions without going under 0 in expenses; or 5 legions with the understanding that the Allied Enthusiasms will pay for the next two quickly next turn. Or all 6 currently possible Legions, expecting the normal income to pay for the final 10 Talents. (You'd have all 7 Legions active then.) But you'd want to make sure you elect the Plutocrat Fulvius as Roman Consul now, so that you'd have a safety net for the negative expenses until you recover.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 07, 2018, 04:26:13 PM
I'm not sure how deficit spending (with a Plutocrat Consul) works so I meant 3 legions now.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 07, 2018, 06:08:15 PM
Okay.  It is time for a new election.  I am stepping down as Roman Consul.

I need to nominate two new Consuls. I nominate Cornelius for Roman Consul, and Fabius for Field Consul. 

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 07:03:36 PM
I'm not sure how deficit spending (with a Plutocrat Consul) works so I meant 3 legions now.

As long as a Plutocrat is the highest ranking available officer present in Rome, processing an expense below 0 in the Republic's Treasury won't lose everyone the game. Later once other offices open up, it would be feasible for other senators to march off to War as Consuls and leave behind a Plutocrat as Pontifex Maximus or Censor or something like that. Doesn't matter what as long as the Plutocrat is HRAO when an expense tries to draw from nothing in the Treasury -- but a debt will be kept track of.

Someone from another Faction can be HRAO without tanking the Senate from a Treasury debt, as long as a net expense doesn't go down any farther. I would allow normal expense batch processing to have some negatives in there, as long as the overall result was positive by the end. For example, normal segment 3 activity at the end of the Revenue Phase is going to need to pay for any Active units, which is a debit, but as long as Rome has less debt or an actual surplus by the end of the process I wouldn't call it a game-over. The expense batch would have to make the debt worse, to count as fatal. But with a Plutocrat as HRAO, any expense batch creating debt or making it worse wouldn't be fatal.

Doing that is still risky, though, since you can't always perfectly guarantee a Plutocrat is HRAO for every possible net debt expense! He might keel over dead from the Mortality Phase, for example, and the next HRAO in sequence down the line might be a Populist.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 07:10:16 PM
Okay.  It is time for a new election.  I am stepping down as Roman Consul.

I need to nominate two new Consuls. I nominate Cornelius for Roman Consul, and Fabius for Field Consul.

In case anyone wants a shortcut to find them, Cornelius is Faction Leader for I.I.'s Aristocrats (the purple Player One), and Fabius is a senator for AzTank's Conservatives (the brown Player Four). That should help you find them more easily in the snapshots above.  O:-)

This, incidentally, would help clear the decks for more militaristic Consuls next turn, when odds are better that you'll be facing one or more Wars!

I will note that, flipping them around, Fabius' 2 Popularity will help more as Roman Consul than Cornelius' 0 Pop, toward reducing Unrest next Turn during the State of the Republic speech.


Edited to add: I'm assuming the Frog is waiting to give Players time to discuss or suggest alternatives before calling the vote, at which point discussion will be prohibited (and he'll have to provide the order he's calling the Factions for votes.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 07, 2018, 07:21:08 PM
Actually the PM doesn't nominate the offices, he nominates the two Senators (Cornelius and Fabius) and if they're elected their players decide which one gets Rome Consul (or they roll a die if they can't come to an agreement).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 07, 2018, 08:26:58 PM
...ah, yep, that's correct. That's actually in my rule compilation flow-sheet, too. I had just forgotten.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 08, 2018, 06:57:03 PM
Ok.  I vote for.  And, the proposal is the two for consul, they decide among themselves which is which. 

Vote order is:

Progressives, Neutralists, Aristocrats, Expansionists Populists, Militarists, conservatives.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 08, 2018, 07:43:56 PM
Progressives vote for.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 08, 2018, 07:57:09 PM
Ok.  I vote for.  And, the proposal is the two for consul, they decide among themselves which is which. 

Vote order is:

Progressives, Neutralists, Aristocrats, Expansionists Populists, Militarists, conservatives.

The Neutralists and Expansionsts aren't active yet.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 08, 2018, 08:06:08 PM
Okay, let's see.

Plutocrat + Progressive block votes = 9 + 4 = 13 for vs currently 0 against. Potentially 31 votes remain either way.

I.I.'s Aristocrats are next, with potentially 8 for or against. (They don't have the highest total Influence, so their 1 knight can't activist vote x2 this time, only x1.)


While I'm at it, Erax's Progressives could have voted 5 against, since Flaminius' 1 knight would have triggered his activist ability (x2 votes) against a proposal for some other senators' gain, the idea being that the senator believed this proposal would be at the expense of the people or the Republic in general. Had he voted against the proposal and won, that particular senator would have gained 2 Influence! (Plautius wouldn't have gained it, because he doesn't have a knight yet as a minion to trigger activist x2 voting.)

This represents the special ability, but also the temptation, of the Progressive Faction: to act against what they see as corruption in the Senate, and in favor of the people (through Land Bills), and so convince other minor senators (in the invisible pool behind the minions) to join their vote. They're the only faction who can farm Influence this way.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 03:26:47 PM
Mmm, checking vote tallies.

13 for vs currently 0 against. Potentially 31 votes remain either way.

I know for a fact that AzTank (on a Google hangout where it's easier to get in touch with the Frog) already agrees with the proposal, so the Aristocrats will add +11 for.

New tally 24 for vs currently 0 against. Potentially 20 votes remain either way. And that by itself means there's a majority win, since it would be impossible for everyone else voting against to win with the remaining potential votes.

Since there's no benefit in this case for anyone else to vote against (their senators won't gain anything, and any 'against' vote can't win), I'll skip ahead to implement the victory.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 03:35:34 PM
Fabius of the Conservatives, and Cornelius, Faction Leader of the Aristocrats, have been elected as Consuls. Each gains 3 Influence, bringing their personal totals up to 8 each. Total Influence goes up to 18 for the Aristocrats, edged out by 19 for the Conservatives.

Next, I.I. and AzTank will have to work out between them who gets to be Field and Roman Consul. The main difference at this point, is that the Roman Consul will be HRAO for the next turn, and will be responsible for leading the Senate: making proposals about the Army for this turn, and about new Consuls next Turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 09, 2018, 04:18:36 PM
Lets roll a die..
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 04:32:25 PM
AzTank's senator leads the Republic on an even roll:

[blockquote]Rolled 1d2 : 2, total 2[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 04:33:20 PM
Fabius is Roman Consul; Cornelius of the Aristocrats will be Field Consul -- for this Turn, kind of an honorary position. ;)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 04:42:05 PM
No more Mandatory business remains this Turn.

To recap your current proposal options, which being non-Mandatory can be proposed in any order (if at all):

You could disband your remaining 4th Legion if you really wanted to, but you'd only end up needing to raise it again sooner than its disbanding would save money on.

Another non-Mandatory option open right now is to raise new Legions. However, you'll have to pay upkeep on them next Revenue Phase, and you don't actually need any right now; and if you do need some next Turn (which is highly probable), you'll have time to raise and send them during the next Senate. Of course you might not have the cash next Turn, but if you spent the cash now you'd be even farther in the hole.

Your last non-Mandatory option would be to pass another land bill to try to reduce unrest to a more manageable level. The financial stresses aren't good for that, though: a Type 2 Land Bill reduces Unrest by 2 when it's passed, but you'll be paying upkeep of 5 Talents per Turn in perpetuity. A Type 3 Land Bill reduces Unrest by 3, but you'll be paying upkeep of 10 Talents. Note that you don't get a new Unrest drop each Turn! -- but you do have to keep paying each Turn. Repealing them later will bring back the same Unrest you reduced.


Someone upthread had opined that it's better to pick up new Legions now, since later you may not have the cash to do so. In either case, however, you're now operating without a financial safety net, since one of the Plutocrats isn't HRAO.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 09, 2018, 05:17:41 PM
The Republic has 39 talents now, and there won't be any expenses (besides raising legions) between now and next turn's revenue phase, so I suggest we raise 3 legions; we won't go bankrupt before new income rolls in. Yes, we'll need to spend 6 talents on upkeep that we'd save if we didn't raise them now, but there are circumstances (unrest and events, if I remember right) which could make legions harder or even impossible to raise next turn, and right now we have no such restrictions.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 07:16:30 PM
The projected budget would look something like this:

Current: 39
Three Legions: -30 = 9
Upkeep next Turn: -2 per Legion x 4 Legions = 1
Regular Republic Income: +30 = 31
Allied Enthusiasm Event resolves: +25 = 56 Talents, up from 39.

Those two Allied Enthusiasm Events y'all have rolled randomly, have been absolute windfalls!

High unrest can make legions harder to raise, including manpower shortages, which can also trigger as a random event in itself.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 07:44:44 PM
Ah, wait, I forgot! -- there is a third Office now! It unlocked with the defeat of Tarquinus! (Not necessarily the defeat of the 1st Latin War, but that happened, too.)

The Republic must have... A PONTIFEX MAXIMUS!!

This is the next (and for this Turn last) Mandatory business. But we could't do it until the Consuls were settled anyway. But it has to be settled before voting to raise more Legions.

AzTank, of course, must make the proposal to nominate a particular senator as PontMax. Any senator present in Rome (not the two in Captivity, for example) can be proposed, including senators who already have another Major or minor office. So one of the Consuls can be PontMax.

The PontMax gets a random income bonus during the Revenue Phase; and a +5 to his Influence (regardless of Era). Once elected, he serves for life, or unless he is stripped of his title by a Senate vote (the only vote that needs more than 2/3 majority) or by a prosecution for corruption. He can also lose office from too many Evil Omens randomly rolling in a Turn. He's also the only Officer who will lose the influence he gained from his office if he loses his title (so -5 if he stops being PontMax).

The PontMax can, at any time during any Senate Phase, appoint one senator to the priesthood, which is a minor office, also for life. The PontMax cannot appoint himself a priest, but he can be a previously appointed priest, and unlike the PontMax office itself a priest is always a priest. There is no limit to the number of senators who can be priests; only a limit to the number able to be appointed per turn ( = 1).

Priests and the PontMax get extra votes on any War proposal, for or against. Priests don't have to vote in a block with each other or with the PontMax. Priests get +1 extra vote. The PontMax senator doubles his personal votes (oratory, knights including any activist triggers, and lesser priesthood, but not bribes).

The PontMax, once elected, also immediately unlocks the ability to veto a Proposal. Vetos can be used on most Proposals, with some restrictions that I'd mention when relevant. A veto can be applied any time before the vetoing Player has announced his votes, and kills the Proposal, which cannot be re-Proposed with the same details again on the same Turn. The PontMax can use his veto power only once per Turn (and not to veto a Proposal to strip him of his title. ;) )

The PontMax is necessarily vulnerable to Evil Omen events. He himself is required to pay the financial penalty if possible; and his Faction is required to pay any leftover balance if possible plus a separate 10 Talent fine. If the Faction cannot pay, the Republic Treasury pays the balance of the original Omen penalty (not the Faction penalty). A PontMax unable to pay the penalty loses his office (or immediately upon a second Omen on the same Turn) and picks up a Major corruption marker for possible prosecution during the Senate phase. A Faction unable to finish paying the Omen cost plus the fine, generates a special Major marker for its Faction Leader for possible prosecution.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 09, 2018, 08:00:32 PM
I will nominate Fabius for PontMax
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 09, 2018, 08:52:17 PM
I will nominate Fabius for PontMax

While Fabius is a fine example of a Roman, and no disrespect is intend himself or his family -- it does seem that having just removed a monarch and successfully fought his attempt to retake our fair city at the cost of three legions; we would not, as a body, willingly choose to recombine the religious duties of the monarch (potifex max) with the executive duties of the monarch (consul)

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 09, 2018, 09:14:13 PM
Hm, this vote could get seriously flakey!

AzTank has made the nomination, but he can also still withdraw it before he starts calling the votes. I think. I'll have to check; I seem to recall that once a proposal is made, it must either be vetoed or voted on. But a nomination isn't necessarily a Proposal: a proposal implicitly calls for a vote, even if discussion may continue until the Presiding Magistrate begins formally calling Factions to vote.

Strictly speaking there are no such things as "nominations" in the rules, but I'm umping that anyone can make nominations as a sort of informal recommendation for discussion. (We've had nominations before, from people other than the PM.) Once the PM (currently Fabius himself) PROPOSES a senator, however, there will have to be a vote, even if the PM allows some time for discussion beforehand.

Keep in mind that if the Proposal is made, and it goes to a vote, and every Faction (other than the PM's) votes against the PM, he must either step down as PM or lose 1 Influence.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 10, 2018, 07:34:41 AM
The Progressives' Plautius, with a paltry 3 Ora+Inf, poses the least threat of persuading away other factions' Senators should he gain a +5 bonus - and it forces me to keep 10 talents in reserve to deal with ill omens.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 10, 2018, 10:45:49 AM
Man, I miss the popcorn smiley...  :dreamer:

This is where the game first starts seriously injecting political friction -- with lots more to come! Soooo many subtle angles to try to cipher out.

Meanwhile, while we're waiting for further discussion and/or for AzTank to declare the official proposal and call for a vote:

Would the Players like to do a Google Hangout or a Facebook thread for discussion purposes, so that notifications will show up more quickly? (The official game choices would still need to be posted to this thread.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 10, 2018, 03:26:59 PM
Sure, whichever one you decide is fine by me.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 10, 2018, 06:47:35 PM
Hmmm... Have we voted on PontMax?  Has the vote been called? 

Perhaps we should set a google hangout with all of us on it, so that we can talk more easily? 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 10, 2018, 07:05:23 PM
AzTank has not called the vote yet (or made a Proposal, strictly speaking -- once he makes a Proposal, he can't back out of it, there has to be a vote).

Meanwhile, I see two votes for a Google hangout for quicker chatting.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 10, 2018, 10:14:07 PM
I will nominate Fabius for PontMax

Well then, let's vote
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 11, 2018, 06:49:39 AM
Okay, you've got to call the voting order. You don't have to delineate the order entirely at first, but you do have to say which Faction is going to vote first, and then call the next Faction once the vote has caught up.

It seems more convenient to delineate the voting order entirely at first, though, for asynch.

You could also declare, since it's your choice, that any Faction can announce their senators' votes in any order they care to.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 11, 2018, 07:27:17 AM
OK

Order is:

Conservatives
Progressives
Populists
Aristocrats
Plutocrats
Militarists

The Conservatives vote for good Fabius for Pontmax

The Conservatives will fondly remember friends who vote with them...:)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 11, 2018, 09:07:04 AM
I'm sorry but this is too much power, too soon, for one single family. The Progressives vote against Fabius; with our special ability that's 5 votes.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 11, 2018, 09:17:33 AM
So it begins...  >:D
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 11, 2018, 10:12:47 AM
The populists also cannot accept the recombination of these offices, something the people have expended their sons and fathers just lately to keep from one mans control.

I fear it is a bad precedent to make for our republic

Populist faction votes nay. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 11, 2018, 10:22:08 AM
I.I.'s Aristocrats next!

(I'm at work where I can't double-check the vote tallies yet, although I'm pretty sure the Conservatives have got 11 votes for, and the Progressives as previously noted would have 5 votes against due to their activist knight triggering. Populists may be 5 or 6 votes, can't recall -- one of their senators is being held captive by the barbarians from the north.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 11, 2018, 04:24:03 PM
The Aristocrats vote for.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 11, 2018, 04:33:00 PM
Currently it's a pretty close vote: the Conservatives bring 11 Ora votes in favor, but the Progressives bring 3 Ora + 2 (1 knight x2 activist trigger) and the Populists bring 3 Ora +1 knight +1 Pop.

So we stand at net +1 for, with 24 potential votes pro or con remaining.

And, while I was accounting that, the Aristocrats block voted "for", adding 7 Ora + 1 knight = 8 votes!

This brings the net vote to +9 for, with 16 potential votes pro or con remaining.

It also prevents Fabius from losing 1 Influence in this vote, since not every other Faction voted against his proposal.

The Frog's Plutocrats are next. They have a total of 9 votes at stake, and will be the deciding factor if they agree 'for'. If they vote 'against', the Militarists will cast the deciding votes!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 12, 2018, 10:39:36 AM
I believe I am next, and will vote FOR.  I think that seals it. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 12, 2018, 11:21:26 AM
Yep, that brings the net vote to +18, leaving over only 7 votes potentially against which wouldn't be enough to win, nor is there any benefit to the Militarists to vote now.

I resolve things out this afternoon, after work. But Fabius will gain 5 Influence, along with the responsibilities and prerogatives of being PontMax.

From this point, Fabius can appoint one senator to the priesthood per Turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 12, 2018, 04:05:07 PM
Okay, I've updated the board: Fabius has the (lifetime) office of Pontifex Maximus, and punched his influence up 5 points to 13. Conservative total Influence is now 24.

AzTank can have Fabius appoint one senator per Turn to the priesthood, pretty much at will during any Senate phase. (And take a priesthood office away, one per turn I think. Update: Erax below correctly states that a priesthood can only be re-assigned, not simply taken away.)

Now that the Mandatory business is settled, Fabius can make a Proposal about raising more Legions. The PontMax (and priesthood) voting bonus does not apply to raising (or disbanding) units, by the way -- only when units and/or senators as commanders are sent to or recalled from a War.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 12, 2018, 05:15:57 PM
It says he can 'assign or reassign one per turn', so I don't think he can remove a priesthood outright, he has to move it to someone else.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 12, 2018, 06:22:52 PM
Ah, yep, good catch!

For those wondering, the post with the Living Rules and my Sabrerules modification flowchart attached, can be found here. Updated to October 5th. http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22819.msg628536#msg628536
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 12, 2018, 06:27:20 PM
A question also came up concerning whether the PontMax must appoint a priest every Turn during the Senate Phase. That was true back in version 2.16 of the Living Rules, but this requirement was eliminated by the current set.

Note that the "2.16" version of the rules applies as a number to the original Avalon Hill edition. The current Living Rules are version 1.06, and apply to the Valley Games edition which is what we're using as a base. (The prologue and epilogue Eras use 2.16 of the AH rules, but anything different has been superseded by the VG rules.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 13, 2018, 09:58:22 AM
I will elevate the Frog's Fulvius to the Priesthood

Is there anyone among the coalition who feels we need to raise legions?  Since we are not at war, I am inclined not to raise any, but certainly will listen to a counter discussion

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 13, 2018, 10:20:20 AM
I will elevate the Frog's Fulvius to the Priesthood

Is there anyone among the coalition who feels we need to raise legions?  Since we are not at war, I am inclined not to raise any, but certainly will listen to a counter discussion

I'll make the adjustment this afternoon after work. (Overtime on Saturday today.)

The Republic has 39 talents now, and there won't be any expenses (besides raising legions) between now and next turn's revenue phase, so I suggest we raise 3 legions; we won't go bankrupt before new income rolls in. Yes, we'll need to spend 6 talents on upkeep that we'd save if we didn't raise them now, but there are circumstances (unrest and events, if I remember right) which could make legions harder or even impossible to raise next turn, and right now we have no such restrictions.

The projected budget would look something like this:

Current: 39
Three Legions: -30 = 9
Upkeep next Turn: -2 per Legion x 4 Legions = 1
Regular Republic Income: +30 = 31
Allied Enthusiasm Event resolves: +25 = 56 Talents, up from 39.

Those two Allied Enthusiasm Events y'all have rolled randomly, have been absolute windfalls!

High unrest can make legions harder to raise, including manpower shortages, which can also trigger as a random event in itself.


I think this is all the discussion about raising more Legions this Turn, between the time we settled the Consul election, and the time when I remembered there's a PontMax office needing filled now.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 13, 2018, 02:32:19 PM
Then let's raise three.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 13, 2018, 02:33:02 PM
Fulvius now updated with a Priest marker. Fulviusí influence +1 to 6, Plutocrat influence total now 15.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 13, 2018, 02:33:50 PM
Then let's raise three.

Is that a proposal calling for a vote? And if so, are you ready to provide the Faction voting order?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 13, 2018, 09:35:19 PM
Then let's raise three.

Is that a proposal calling for a vote? And if so, are you ready to provide the Faction voting order?

Vote to raise three legions. These are needed as a buffer in case unforseen trouble develops.

Voting order:

Conservatives
Progressives
Populists
Aristocrats
Plutocrats
Militarists

Conservatives vote yes

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 13, 2018, 09:58:05 PM
While out of order, populist vote will be affirmative
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 13, 2018, 11:15:03 PM
Progressives vote in favor.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 14, 2018, 07:37:27 AM
The Aristocrats vote in favour.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 08:04:29 AM
That's 28 votes 'pro', with only potentially 15 votes 'con' remaining; and with no advantage to the remaining two factions for voting against. So we can end the vote here with a win for the proposal.

I don't think anyone wants to burn cash on another land bill right now -- unrest isn't an emergency (and if it was, you should have elected a Populist as Roman Consul. ;) ) And it would be worse than pointless to vote to disband any of those Legions.

So that ends the Senate Phase for this Turn! I'll process data and move on to the Revolution Phase soon.

As a preliminary to that, no one can rebel yet, and no one has so many cards that they need to discard, so the only questions will be whether anyone wants to donate or trade cards with other Players (which can actually be done at any time but which will 'arrive' at the next Phase); and whether anyone has valid Statesmen and/or Concessions to play. I'll double-check everyone and post pmails to let you know your options.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 08:34:05 AM
Okay, the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Legions have been raised again to Active. The 5th, 6th, and 7th remain potentials in the Force Pool.

The Republic's Treasury has dropped 30 Talents down to 9 remaining. Not counting any donations coming up from senators, though, you can expect to end the Revenue Phase with 56 in the bank.

No one, has it happens, has any playable cards for the Revolution Phase. If anyone has any theoretically playable cards for this phase, you can assume I've already sent out all p-mails to those people to let them know. If you don't have a p-mail from me on this topic for this Turn, you don't have even a theoretically playable card.

As always, I'll send p-mails to Players when you have actually or theoretically playable cards during a Phase, so don't worry too much about it.  O:-)

If anyone wants to donate or trade cards immediately, I'll allow a reasonable amount of time as usual for asynch lag purposes. Just let me know before the next Forum Phase starts.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 08:52:36 AM
Speaking of donations! -- and I'm putting this in its own post for emphasis:

two senators are currently being held hostage for ransom by the barbarian raiders from the north!

Both are, ironically, from recently raised families.

Acilius of the Plutocrats:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3976/3AjHAO.jpg)

and Aurelius of the Populists:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9919/8y3nMo.jpg)


Senators receive no income when captured for ransom, according to the rules, but I don't think that's reasonable -- rather, any income they receive must be spent up to the balance of their remaining ransom. Their captors aren't total fools, they wouldn't turn down 3 Talents which Aurelius' family would be receiving for him managing Rome's mining operations, nor the 1 he'd normally receive from just being a wealthy family doing normal business.

Acilius was captured with two Talents, so he only needs 8 more to be released.

Aurelius was captured with five Talents! -- so he only needs 5 more to be released. (Both figures to be reduced more during the next income.)

Rome doesn't have the capability to go rescue them, yet. (Or even at all according to the rules! -- but I'm planning to house-mod that a little when-if-ever senators are captured in Wars. The Republic has no way to take the fight to the barbarian homeland right now, so there's no possible rescue now.)

Donations to help with this, from Faction(s) to Faction, can be sent at any time, but the most reasonable time will be during the upcoming Revenue Phase (which is when any donated cash would 'arrive' anyway). I'll talk more about this soon when we get to that phase. (They may die in captivity anyway.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 09:19:53 AM
This effectively ends the Turn, with any donation/trade/discard of cards allowed by lag for a while, so on to:

TURN THREE -- MORTALITY PHASE!
----------------------------------------

No Immanent Wars yet, so no Wars go Active.

Death strikes Family #13! -- Flaminius, Faction Leader of the Progressives, dies!

Fortunately, he was the Faction Leader. So his family immediately elevates a scion to patrician to take his place as Faction Leader. But the knight was loyal to the previous Flaminius, and so goes back into the invisible pool of minor senators. Normal vote tally reduces 1 to 3. (Flaminius had no other chips to lose yet.)

Had Family #17 been drawn, for example, Plautius of the Progressives, he would have lost all chips and his family card would go to the bottom of the family Senator stack of the Curia in the Forum, to await random respawning. (Which right now is a much better chance than usual thanks to Appius Claudius being alive, since he acts as mentor to train new scions into being patricians for the good of the Republic.) Once respawned, whenever that might happen, the new Plautian Senator would go active in the Forum where he would await being persuaded to join a Faction. His Tax Farming #2 Concession would go immediately to the Forum meanwhile, to be voted on reassignment to another senator during the next Senate Phase.

But fortunately for Erax, that didn't happen. In effect, he just lost his only knight, that's all. But I wanted to take the opportunity to demonstrate the advantage a Faction Leader has, in death, over any other senator.

Two more death chips are drawn for the senators in Captivity, but their family numbers didn't come up, so they're fine. The barbarians may be barbaric, but they aren't stupid: they'll wait to see if the families can come up with the ransom demands.

This ends the Mortality Phase. I'll start processing the Revenue Phase soon.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 14, 2018, 10:46:09 AM
The Progressives wish to hold a round of games in honor of the recently departed Flaminius the Elder, to which end we request a loan of one talent from any faction. We offer to repay TWO talents next turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 11:33:04 AM
^^ Hear, hear!

Make that a public contract, and it will even be enforceable.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 11:47:17 AM
TURN THREE -- REVENUE PHASE
-------------------------------------

The Phase that everyone loves the most has come around again! -- time to harvest your income!

None of the available choices for Players in Segment Two involve messing much with the game, so after the first two turns I've decided that the Player order doesn't matter (for this purpose): we don't have to start with the HRAO and go around the table clockwise. Any Player can report their choices whenever you're ready.

The choices, as before, currently come down to:

1.) Distribute your collected Faction cash back to senators as you prefer (including to any Captive senators whose ransom hasn't been paid off yet);

and

2.) Donate from any of your senators' Personal Treasuries as many Talents as you prefer to the Republic's Treasury. (Currently at 9 Talents, but it'll soon have a net 56 Talents not counting any donations.) Any senator who donates 10 Talents will gain 1 Influence. (A senator would need to donate 25 Talents to gain 2 Influence, which I doubt will be possible for anyone.)

Remember when doing your distributions, that the Forum Phase will come next, and you may want to Persuade a knight (needs 5 Talents for automatic success) or Persuade a senator to join your Faction (which the persuading senator's cash could help with -- or cash in your Faction Treasury, and Personal Treasuries could help prevent!) As Erax noted, any senator during the upcoming Forum Phase can also Sponsor Games, for which he'll need 7, 11, or 18 Talents (for Popularity gain of 1, 2, or 3; and Unrest reduction similarly.)


I'll batch report everyone's Segment One finances in the next post.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 14, 2018, 12:06:01 PM
Ooh, these costs are different from the ones I have, I guess everything is a bit cheaper in the prequel eras! Ignore my previous post, the Progressives do not need a loan!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 12:28:20 PM
Ooh, these costs are different from the ones I have, I guess everything is a bit cheaper in the prequel eras! Ignore my previous post, the Progressives do not need a loan!

If you mean for the games, no the costs are the same in each Era. I read the costs straight off the game board.

But since I know at least one place there's a misprint on the official game board (where a 2d6 for rolling results should be 3d6), I double-checked the April 2018 Living Rules. But the rules say refer to the game board. My "Sabrerules" compilation also says 7, 13, or 18 from Personal Cash. The Streamlined Rules from the previous edition of the Living Rules, prints 7, 13, and 18. Maybe the older Avalon Hill rules were more expensive for games?

Here's a board snapshot taken just now:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2679/Rys7WU.jpg)

I also just double-checked the Birth of the Republic board, and the figures are the same. Perhaps later editions of the game now use what was originally cheaper Birth costs compared to normal Eras?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 12:33:08 PM
And now, the Faction tallies:

I.I.ís Aristocrats: Starting cash = 4; +2 +2 from personal Treasuries; +3 +2 from senator incomes; +1 from knights; +3 from Valeriusí Harbor Fees (no corruption yet) = new Faction cash total 17 Talents.

Tripoliís Militarists: starting cash = 0; +2 from Personal Treasuries; +3 +1 from senator incomes; +1 +1 from knights; +0 from (no) Concessions = new Faction cash total 8 Talents.

The Frogís Plutocrats:
Captive Acilius has 2 Talents, and earns another 1 = new personal Treasury total 3 Talents. Needs 7 more to be returned to Rome.
Faction starting cash = 0; +0 from Personal Treasuries; +5 (Plutocrat Leader bonus) +1 from senator incomes; +(2x2=)4 from knights (Plutocrat knight income bonus); +0 from (no) Concessions = new Faction cash total 10 Talents.

AzTankís Conservatives: starting cash = 1; +2 +2 +2 from Personal Treasuries; +3 +3 from senator incomes; +0 from (no) knights; +0 from (no) concessions; +2 from 1d6 PontMax income = new Faction cash total 15 cash.

Malizeís Populists:
Captive Aureliusí Personal Treasury = 5; + 3 from Mining Concession = 8. Needs 2 more Talents to be returned to Rome.
Faction starting cash = 1; +0 from (no other) Personal Treasuries; +3 from senator income; +1 from knight; +0 from (no other) Concessions = new Faction cash total 5 Talents.

Eraxís Progressives: starting cash = 0; +5 from Personal Treasury; +3 +1 from senator incomes; +0 from (no) knights; +2 from Tax Farming Concession = new Faction cash total 11 Talents.


Next I'll post current Player mat screenshots, since this may make a difference in how you want to distribute your caches of cash. ;)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 12:37:05 PM
Clockwise around the board starting from Player One (not the HRAO, who is Player Four, AzTank's Conservative senator):

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9227/rKDxkP.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7724/bWi1xR.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/1092/Ua6XSk.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9837/0k3WnT.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5102/nWgws5.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8215/UIg9Ng.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 14, 2018, 12:42:14 PM
5 to Valerius, 10 to buy 1 influence for Cincinnatus.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 14, 2018, 12:57:59 PM
I will pay the ransom, and keep the rest in faction cash. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 01:29:28 PM
5 to Valerius, 10 to buy 1 influence for Cincinnatus.

2 remains in Faction cash. Cinc's influence goes up 1 to 6. Total Influence now 19. Republic's Treasury up 10 to 19.


I will pay the ransom, and keep the rest in faction cash. 

Acilius returns to Rome alive! -- no personal Treasury now of course. With his Influence and Oratory restored, the Plutocrats now have 18 Total Influence and 11 Normal Votes. Faction cash now 3.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 14, 2018, 02:11:36 PM
It looks like some rules say the costs are 7/11/18 and others say 7/13/18. Personally I think 7/13/18 is the right one, and since I lost a knight I'd need a 2-talent loan instead of 1. Here's my terms for a public agreement: the first faction to loan the Progressives 2 talents this phase will have their loan repaid next Revenue Phase, plus another talent of interest for a total of 3 talents, out of the Progressives' funds. I'll wait until all other factions have declared their expense allocations and go last.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 14, 2018, 02:17:03 PM
It looks like some rules say the costs are 7/11/18 and others say 7/13/18. Personally I think 7/13/18 is the right one, and since I lost a knight I'd need a 2-talent loan instead of 1. Here's my terms for a public agreement: the first faction to loan the Progressives 2 talents this phase will have their loan repaid next Revenue Phase, plus another talent of interest for a total of 3 talents, out of the Progressives' funds. I'll wait until all other factions have declared their expense allocations and go last.

I'll take that.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 14, 2018, 02:41:39 PM
It's a deal! I take my 11 cash plus II's loan of 2 and Flaminius the Younger holds a Blood Fest in honor of his deceased father. 0 cash left for my Senators or Treasury.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 14, 2018, 03:17:54 PM
Populists will put 2 to satisfy the ransom, otherwise no changes

Edit: to be clear, the ransom is to be paid with 2 from faction cash and the remainder from his personal funds
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 05:33:00 PM
I agree, it makes better sense for the second level to be 13. That way there's 7 for the first level, +6 for 2nd level and +7 for the third level. It's more balanced than +4 for the 2nd level.

It's a deal! I take my 11 cash plus II's loan of 2 and Flaminius the Younger holds a Blood Fest in honor of his deceased father. 0 cash left for my Senators or Treasury.

Well, not yet. That's during the Forum Phase. But I'll make a note to "devote" it for that purpose when the time comes.  O0

I've now made the proper table adjustments, and left a Public Contract notepad next to the Progressives' Faction Cash tracker.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 05:39:56 PM
Populists will put 2 to satisfy the ransom, otherwise no changes

Edit: to be clear, the ransom is to be paid with 2 from faction cash and the remainder from his personal funds

Done! -- Aurelius returns to his family and to his Faction, poorer but perhaps wiser. Normal Vote Tally goes up to 8, Total Influence goes up to 10.

Perhaps some day, Rome will punch back its enemies far enough to give the homeland some living room, with the City of the Republic never to be sacked again!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 14, 2018, 07:11:47 PM
Tripoli has been out sick all day, but pm'd me that he'll keep all 8 cash in his Faction Treasury.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 14, 2018, 11:51:39 PM
I will give each of my guys 2, also spend 2 for Camillus to get a knight
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 07:06:11 AM
^ That finishes out the Revenue Phase's second segment, then.

I'll work on processing the third segment (the Republic's accounting, which is done automatically), and the first round of the Forum Phase (which starts with AzTank this Turn), when I get home from work this afternoon.

The Forum Phase will run in order, clockwise from the Player with the HRAO:

AzTank's Conservatives (already slated to spend Cam's 2 Talents to try for a knight)
Malize' Populists
Erax's Progressives (already slated to spend Flam's 13 Talents on games to honor his father)
I.I. Aristocrats
Tripoli's Militarists
and then (last this time) the Frog's Plutocrats.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 15, 2018, 07:41:11 AM
Flaminius will roll for a knight with no cash. 1 in 6 is still better than zero! Hopefully you can process my Forum Phase turn automatically when it rolls around.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 15, 2018, 09:37:09 AM




Perhaps some day, Rome will punch back its enemies far enough to give the homeland some living room, with the City of the Republic never to be sacked again!




Rome is looking for someone to lead their legions to teach the Barbarians a lesson?  Unfortunately, I have my small farm to tend to.  And war is such an unpleasant business.  Much better to handle things peacefully.  Good neighbor policy is always best.  But, if Rome decides I must go, I will, of course, faithfully go >:D
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 10:38:47 AM
Perhaps some day, Rome will punch back its enemies far enough to give the homeland some living room, with the City of the Republic never to be sacked again!

Rome is looking for someone to lead their legions to teach the Barbarians a lesson?  Unfortunately, I have my small farm to tend to.  And war is such an unpleasant business.  Much better to handle things peacefully.  Good neighbor policy is always best.  But, if Rome decides I must go, I will, of course, faithfully go >:D

Well you better get ready... the auguries look auspicious!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 04:51:09 PM
Third segment, the automatic Republic income phase.

Republic starting cash: 19 Talents (10 of them thanks to I.I.ís donation);
+30 standard income;
+25 Allied Enthusiasm event resolved;
-0 no Active Wars;
-0 no Land Bills;
4 Legions x -2 Talents = -8 unit upkeep;

= New Republic Treasury: 66 Talents!  <:-) :bd:

All resolved events in the Forum discard, and that ends the Revenue Phase for Turn 3.

(Note: the Spolia Opima Event remains untriggered yet.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 04:56:43 PM
TURN THREE -- FORUM PHASE
-------------------------

The rounds start with AzTankís Aristocrats, who roll:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 1, 5, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 05:03:58 PM
Not a 7, so a Scenario Card.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/152/GlCD48.jpg)

Coriolanus defected last Turn to try to convince the Volscii to assault Rome, but died before he could succeed. (Historically, he led the first war against them as Consul, and then later in his career went back to them with a proposition to lead them into retaking Rome's kingship due to the Senate politically sacrificing him to mollify the people.)

So, aside from the vicissitudes of war, this should be an easier fight than against Tarquinius and his Latin alliance.

Per his original plan, AzTank has Camillus sacrifice 2 Talents to attempt persuading a knight. Succeeds on a roll of 4 or better:

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 6, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 05:19:28 PM
Success! -- Normal Vote tally also increases to 12.

There was no indication that Furius Camillus should be replaced as Faction Leader, so that's staying provisionally. I'll allow a synch-lag choice later, however, unless someone decides to try to snipe away one of the Conservative senators -- upon that target declaration, the senator will be invalid to switch to (the immune) Faction Leader.

I am unsure if I understood his revenue instructions precisely, so for the most leeway I've assigned 2 Talents to each of his senators plus another 2 for Camillus to use in minion trolling. ;) So currently he still has 4-2=2 Talents. The Faction Treasury has 5.

But if I misunderstood, I'll retroactively adjust Cam's current 2 Talents back into the Faction pile, so long as the correction doesn't come at a time strategically convenient for such a transaction. ;)

AzTank already has a pretty full stable. His best chance at sniping away someone else's senator would Erax's Plautius, who has no cash and only 6 loyalty, + 7 standard faction commitment = -13 to a persuasion roll. Fabius' 13 Inf + 2 Ora would provide a minimum snake eyes chance to win, plus another 2 Talents potentially risked to bring the winning roll to 4 or less on a 2d6.

That would be a strong probability of failure and a super-dickish move if you won, though, so I don't recommend it. ;)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 05:23:33 PM
Malize's Populists are next around the table, rolling 2d6:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 6, total 12[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 05:39:55 PM
Boxcars! -- wish that roll had been saved! Not a 7, so it's a Scenario draw.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9813/fAwWEH.jpg)

Rome's nearest major neighbor, the Etruscan city of Veia, decides now is a great time to threaten Rome on the other side of the Tiber! Fortunately, these Wars aren't really allied, so they don't team up to double each other's power.

(Yes, that's a thing you'll have to worry about sometimes! -- but not currently.)

Each war, notice, will cost 10 Talents per Turn as long as they're active. Winning the Volscian War will unlock two more Tax Farming territory concessions, though (areas #3 and 4), and 5 Talents of spoils. Beating the Veientine War won't give you immediate spoils, but will be much more lucrative since the city and its environs will permanently increase the Republic's income by 10 Talents! -- and you'll gain a permanent manpower increase of another 3 potential Legions!

Whichever senator first gains a Victory against either of them, will also gain the Spolia Opima: a legendary choice of personal spoils, originally granted to Romulus himself! (I think it was granted historically for one of these Wars, maybe against the Veii; it would only be granted once more, in the 200s CE.)

Neither Populist senator has any cash currently (Aurelius needed to pay off his ransom, sadly but successfully). So it's not even possible for either of them to persuade any other senators yet. There's a 1 in 6 chance that one of them could pick up a knight, however.

I'll roll the chance now, and if it's a win, Malize can tell me which one gets the knight:

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 3, total 3[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 05:43:38 PM
A 3, so no success. This ends Malize's round (unless you want to shift your Faction Leader from Junius Brutus to Aurelius, which I'll allow post hoc if you tell me).

Erax's Progressives are next around the board, and for their Event/Scenario roll:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 4, 6, total 10[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 05:54:56 PM
Not 7, so it's another Scenario. This time it's a red-text Faction card of some sort, which Erax adds to his hand with his other remaining one. I've sent you a p-mail letting you know what it is, and conditions for its play.

Erax's plan was to use the new Flaminiusí 13 Talents to hold Bloodfest games in honor of his deceased father, so Flamís treasury goes to 0; but Unrest decreases down from 4 to 2, and Flamís popularity increases from 0 to 2.

Erax was keeping Flam as his Faction Leader. Neither of his senators has any cash now, but it doesn't hurt to try a long-shot knight persuasion which I'll roll now:

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 5, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 05:57:50 PM
Close! -- but no tobacco in the Old World. With no possibility of persuading someone else's senator, this ends his round.

I.I.'s Aristocrats are up around the table, and roll:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 1, 6, total 7[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:00:33 PM
Craps! -- that's a Random Event, 50/50 shot of being helpful or harmful.

Here's the pre-Early table again for reference:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8990/nQLKFu.jpg)

But we're rolling forum dice for transparency, so ignore the dice in the photo.  O:-)

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 1, 1, 3, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:08:20 PM
Itís a Drought. This will add 1 point of Unrest during the Population Phase coming up soon.

Valerius of the Aristos has 5 Talents, so could pick up a knight for free, but I haven't received specific instructions about that yet.

Even with his Personal Treasury, though, he doesn't have enough clout yet to possibly persuade away someone else's senator.

I.I.'s final option this round is whether he wants to keep Cornelius, the Field Consul this turn (but not for long), as his Faction Leader, or shift it to someone else.

I'll need to know about that and/or the knight roll before I can continue.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 15, 2018, 06:09:10 PM
Yeah, Valerius will dump it all on a knight.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:10:30 PM
Done! -- the normal vote tally also goes up, to 9.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:12:05 PM
Tripoli's Militarists roll

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 6, total 12[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:21:59 PM
Opps, sent the wrong thing to the wrong place  :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:26:41 PM
My abject apologies to Tripoli. Hopefully I fixed that before anyone noticed.

The Militarists roll a Scenario card, and draw a 3rd red-text Faction card to Tripoli's hand. I've sent you a p-mail explaining its usage.

The two Militarists senators don't have enough Inf+Ora (+ no cash) yet to even possibly try persuading another senator to join them. And with no cash, their chances of picking up a knight as a minion are 1:6 equally, so I'll go ahead and roll that:

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 2, total 2[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:28:27 PM
Eh, no.

If Tripoli wants to shift his Faction Leader over to Julius for some reason, I'll allow it post hoc within a reasonable time frame.

Last then around the table, the Frog's Plutocrats roll!

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 1, total 7[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:29:13 PM
That'll be another Random Event, 3d6:

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 6, 4, 5, total 15[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 15, 2018, 06:31:37 PM
This was a very very good turn. Let's crush those two wars!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
 :DD :2funny:

OMG, the Carthaginians SO BADLY want to give y'all a fleet, if only you'd expand a bit farther first!

But dang if they won't give you 25 more Talentons next Turn, to help you get there!

Surely this will not come back to bite them in the ass...  >:D

None of the Plutocrats' senators have any cash this Turn, since it all went to helping their new recruit Acilius get home (well, all but 3, but that's in the Faction pot). So unless the Frog wants to change his Leader away from Appius, his only remaining choice this round will be where he wants to send his knight if he rolls a 6:

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 5, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:40:07 PM
Close again, but no.

So unless the Frog wants to shift his Leader over to someone other than Appius, he's done for the Round, and we're done with the Forum Phase for this Turn. (And I'll allow a retcon choice within a reasonable time frame.)

Next up, I'll process the automatic Population Phase, and prepare for AzTank's Fabius to open the Senate.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 06:57:17 PM
TURN THREE -- POPULATION PHASE
----------------------------------------

Not much to do this Pop Phase: corruption investigation doesnít exist yet; Tax Farming isnít threatened yet; nothingís in the Curia (though Coriolanus died there last Turn! -- which is going to help y'all a little going forward).

Unrest starts at 2, adds +2 for two Unprosecuted Active Wars (War outbreak always adds some unavoidable unrest, naturally), and another +1 for the Drought. New Unrest = 5.

Fortunately, the current highest ranking available officer is Fabius the Roman Consul, who has a Popularity of 2 -- thanks to him sponsoring a Land Bill to help the people out earlier (which also avoided two earlier droughts!)

3d6 rolls total 12, plus 2 Pop - 5 Unrest = 9 result to the State of the Republic Speech opening the Senate.

Fabiusí speech, despite his popularity, only makes things worse, adding 2 to the Unrest, new total 7. This is starting to get a little serious! (Maximum unrest is 19, by the way.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 07:07:10 PM
With Fabius' speech, the Senate is now open, AzTank's Fabius of the Conservatives Presiding as Magistrate to start, as Roman Consul (and Pontifex Maximus).

Mandatory Business this Turn only needs to involve electing a new pair of Consuls, which can't be either Fabius or Cornelius of the Aristocrats again. Any other senator is eligible, including other Prior Consuls.

No need to elect a PontMax again, as he serves for life.

Keep in mind you've got two Wars on your borders this time, and only the Consuls can lead a Force to War.

Your non-Mandatory Business this Turn could include Disbanding any number of your Legions, but I'm going to assume that's a duh. ;)

Other non-MandBus could include Fabius assigning another priesthood to a senator (or re-assigning Fulvius' of the Plutocrats). I don't think it's possible for a PontMax to actively seek to resign his own office, so Fabius cannot Propose for his office to be stripped away (to be given to someone else by another Proposal.)

Obviously the most important non-Mandatory Business among the remaining valid options will be the question of Raising more Legions, and/or assigning a Consul to lead a Force of Legions against a War.

But first you've got to elect more Consuls.

Meanwhile, I'll be taking some State of the Republic snapshots for convenience.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 15, 2018, 07:13:25 PM
This is a good time to remind everyone that Camillus and Cincinnatus have special bonuses vs. the two wars we're facing.

Also JP check your messages.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 07:15:51 PM
Erax notes that Wars only count as Unprosecuted if theyíre moved to that slot after having a chance to be Prosecuted; which I double-checked, and heís correct! This not only reduces Unrest by 2, it also reduces Unrest by another 1 (since Iím sure I added that for the 1st Latin War, too!)

This affects the Unrest Rolls retroactively, and Iíll have to take some time to recheck those.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 07:28:02 PM
The 1st Turn's roll would have been 15 instead of 14, so no change from ďNo ChangeĒ. ;)

The 2nd Turnís roll would have been 13 - 2 = 11, so this time ďNo ChangeĒ instead of +1!

That means the current roll would have been 4 unrest down (-1 for no Unprosecuted Latin War, -2 for no Unprosecuted Wars this Turn yet, -1 for no added Unrest on Turn 2), or only Unrest 1 (due to the drought). 3d6 rolls total 12, plus 2 Pop - 1 unrest = 13 result to the State of the Republic. Thatís a No Change, and Unrest remains at 1.

My own Sabrerule compilation flowsheet was unclear about this, and I will make adjustments.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 07:38:03 PM
This is a good time to remind everyone that Camillus and Cincinnatus have special bonuses vs. the two wars we're facing.

True: they void Disaster and Standoff rolls.

Cincinnatus of the Aristocrats has a Mil score of 5, and would avoid D/S results for the Volscian War.

Marcus Furius Camillus, Faction Leader of the Conservatives, also has a Mil of 5, and would avoid D/S results for the Veientine War.

Manlius, Faction Leader of the Militarists, is only a family Senator so has no special anti-War abilities, but he does have a Mil score of 6 now, thanks to his knight! -- the Militarists always look for minions capable of handling headquarter duties.  O0

The only other Mil 5 senator right now is Julius of the Militarists (thanks to his HQ knight).

There are some Mil 4 senators floating around, too, which will be seen when I get to posting the updated snapshots. And even a Mil 3 senator might be handy for political reasons, for delaying the Volscian War while a more ass-kicking Force goes after Veiia.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 15, 2018, 08:12:58 PM
Okay, the current Player mats, from Player One around the table:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/7302/DbUO1A.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7650/J1A1Ak.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3361/zXUcvG.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7313/rClQxL.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1538/TB9L7R.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/8429/3RJopB.jpg)


For ease of reference, here are the Wars again:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9813/fAwWEH.jpg)

The Republic currently has 4 Legions Active, with another 3 possible in the Force Pool.

There are 66 Talents in the Republic's Treasury. The Senate could raise the final 3 possible Legions for 30 Talents, and have 36 remaining.

Based on currently expected incomes and expenses, you can expect the Republic to add an extra 27 Talents next Turn. (30 normal + 25 Allied Enthusiasm again - 2x4 Legions -20 Wars.) Obviously this will be affected by extra Legion expenses, or fewer Wars!


The ball is now in AzTank's court, to Propose two new Consuls. (Or to suggest some for preliminary discussion.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 16, 2018, 10:45:17 AM

Cincinnatus of the Aristocrats has a Mil score of 5, and would avoid D/S results for the Volscian War.

Marcus Furius Camillus, Faction Leader of the Conservatives, also has a Mil of 5, and would avoid D/S results for the Veientine War.

Manlius, Faction Leader of the Militarists, is only a family Senator so has no special anti-War abilities, but he does have a Mil score of 6 now, thanks to his knight! -- the Militarists always look for minions capable of handling headquarter duties.  O0

The only other Mil 5 senator right now is Julius of the Militarists (thanks to his HQ knight).

There are some Mil 4 senators floating around, too, which will be seen when I get to posting the updated snapshots. And even a Mil 3 senator might be handy for political reasons, for delaying the Volscian War while a more ass-kicking Force goes after Veiia.

I would like to mention, for the purpose of discussion, that preserving the Republic means a division of power.  Right now, the Aristocrats, Plutocrats, and Conservatives have an overwhelming vote count.  The health of the Republic would benefit by  increasing the political power of the other factions.  Giving the military leadership to any of these leading factions will only increase their power at the war's conclusion.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 16, 2018, 04:16:21 PM
I think itíd be prudent to call up at least 2 legios from the reserves so we could have two armies (4 and 2)

While itíd be great to have a Militarist double consulship, the way things are I donít see how we canít use the personas that mitigate disasters in these wars.  Unless raw military input of the two militarists would offset the chances of disaster, not sure how those inputs all come together

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 16, 2018, 04:56:01 PM
(Remember, ignore the "2d6", it's actually 3d6, board misprint. Though come to think of it, I might be able to fix it myself...)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9536/RH5RMB.jpg)

From a purely pragmatic combat theory, not counting political concerns, what you want is to bump that coveted "Victory No losses" slot as low (toward the top of the chart) as feasibly possible.

The Volscian War will nudge it 2 slots higher, totally off the board and creating two more Defeat All Lost slots at the bottom; the Veientine War will bump it a solid 4 slots higher, creating 4 more such absolute defeat slots instead.

Every Legion you can bring to one of those fights, taps the total win slot back one notch toward the bottom; and every point of Mil skill in their Commander will allow a Legion to nudge the absolute win slot two notches lower (toward 3 at the top of the list).

So if you're going after the Veii, for example, your current best possible result, assuming you pick up another 3 Legions to your current logistical maximum, and send them out under the Manly One with his Mil 6 headquarters equals:

-4 War power
+ 7 Legions
+ 6 Manny's HQ
= +9 dice roll modifier.

That means your worst possible result would be a Stalemate with one Legion lost, and your odds of that are 1 in 216. BUT, Manlius won't be able to stop either of the two automatic fails, which aren't outright defeats but which would be pretty costly at 25% or 50% losses rounded up.

If you bring Furius Camilus versus the Veii, he can void either of those two automatic failures -- and the Veientine War has I think a 23% chance of one of them triggering without him! Otherwise his best math looks like:

-4 War power
+7 Legions
+5 Manny's HQ
= +8 dice roll modifier.

That means your worst possible result is a 1 in 216 chance of a Stalemate with 2 Legions lost, and a not much better chance of only 1 Legion lost in a Stalemate. Everything else is a Victory, most likely with no losses. And, with FurryCam, you don't have to worry about the 23% chance of a costly auto-fail.

There are other considerations, of course, including budget, and the expected costs (cash and unrest) of leaving the Volscians to harass your border; or on the other hand of prosecuting their War in a way that's risky or safe but which lowers the chance of a safe victory against the Veian town.

If I may note a political subtlety, though, which has recently become a factor: if you send both Consuls out with a Force against the Wars, Fabius of the Conservatives, Rome's High Priest, will be left behind as the Highest Ranking Available Officer. If your Wars don't win an immediate victory, whoever gets sent out as Consul won't be around to vote or have influence while they're still out in the field (as Proconsuls now).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 16, 2018, 05:46:46 PM
OK, not certain exactly how this is done, but Camillus and Cincinnatus should be raised to Counsels, so they can go to war.

Also, lets raise more legions, did I hear a recommendation for two?

In terms of the priesthood, I raise Papirius

I think that is all I can do.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 16, 2018, 06:36:43 PM
With three more legions we could send 3 vs. the weaker war and 4 vs. the other with a 63% chance of victory for each. In general, the more legions we raise and send to war the fewer we are likely to lose, so in a sense we are saving by raising as many as we can.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 16, 2018, 06:40:35 PM
Papirius can be raised to priesthood immediately.

OK, not certain exactly how this is done, but Camillus and Cincinnatus should be raised to Counsels, so they can go to war.

Treating this as a formal Proposal.

Henceforth, to speed things along a bit, I will allow a provisional assumption that if the HRAO doesn't include a voting order with his Proposal, then any Faction can vote as soon as they want. In other words, assigning a voting order is a privilege of the HRAO but not a necessity.

AzTank's senators tally 12 votes pro. There are currently 38 votes remaining.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 16, 2018, 06:56:12 PM
I've marked Papirius of the Conservatives as a priest, raising his Influence by 1 to 4, also raising the Conservatives' total Influence to 25.

While going around to check the remaining vote tallies (and whether any activist knights might count double pro or con, which currently won't happen, I happened to notice that the Aristocrats have farmed 3 extra Influence from 3 prior Influence gains! -- when any Aristo senator gains any amount of Influence, the Faction gains 1 extra Inf point to be distributed at I.I.'s choice to any other senator.

So, Cornelius and Cincinnatus each picked up 3 Influence when they each were elected Consul -- each time generated 1 extra Influence point. Cinc also earned 1 Influence for winning the Victory over the 1st Latin War; and even though he instantly lost it for his debacle of losing 3 Legions in the Victory, that still counts as 1 more Inf point to be distributed.

Thus in summary, I.I. has 2 Inf points he can distribute to anyone but Cinc, and 1 more Inf point he can distribute to anyone but Corny. I have left a marker as a reminder under his Total Influence marker, and I've upgraded it already to account for the extra influence meanwhile. It still isn't enough to activate his knights' x2 vote ability, but it's close!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 16, 2018, 07:21:18 PM
The aristocratic faction votes for.

1 influence to each of my senators.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 16, 2018, 07:36:11 PM
The aristocratic faction votes for.

1 influence to each of my senators.

Done, Cornelius now 9, Valerius now 6, Cincinnatus now 7. Total influence now 22. You'd need 26 currently to double your knights' voting power.

Aristocrats add 9 votes, making 21 votes pro, 0 votes con. 29 votes outstanding. Literally any other Faction, assuming its senators all vote together (which is a safe assumption since there's no benefit otherwise in this vote), will tip the scale to a majority for the Proposal.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 16, 2018, 09:03:18 PM
Populists For. 

Our enemies will be taken care of, and then Cincinnatus can return to his fields.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 06:38:20 AM
That cinches Cinc and Corny as the new Consuls, then!

AzTank and I.I. will either have to work out he details or roll for who gets to be Roman vs Field. Each of them will gain 3 Influence either way -- and the Aristocrats will farm another point of Influence which can't be spent on Cincinnatus!

As umpire, I will personally suggest that Cinc be made Roman Consul, since I.I. seems more able to check regularly on the thread right now.  O:-) So Cinc being the Presiding Magistrate as HRAO will help things move along more smoothly.

As a sidenote, the PM post can be voluntarily resigned without affecting the senator's rank or office in any other way. As with him losing the PM post for other reasons, the post then descends to the next HRAO senator, who then takes over management of the Senate as PM. This can be handy for various reasons, including real life issues cropping up which require a Player to be less able to check in on a thread. But it can also be handy for at least one in-game reason: the senator's Player wants the senator to be able to leave Rome, and the rules say that if the PM leaves Rome then he automatically closes the Senate while doing so. Due to the how the timing in the game works, however, the PM cannot make a Proposition where he would leave Rome if it passes, and then resign during or after this Proposition. He must resign first (assuming he agrees that the Senate should continue without him) -- but then the next HRAO must be willing to Propose for the prior senator to leave Rome as Commander or Governor! So while there's an important in-game usage for this concept, it can require some political finesse.  :coolsmiley:
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 17, 2018, 08:59:37 AM
As umpire, I will personally suggest that Cinc be made Roman Consul, since I.I. seems more able to check regularly on the thread right now.  O:-) So Cinc being the Presiding Magistrate as HRAO will help things move along more smoothly.



I am good with that
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 09:36:41 AM
I can't imagine I.I. will disagree, so provisionally I'll note Cincinnatus as the new Roman Consul and Camillus as Field Consul. (I kept saying Cornelius, sorry -- that came from him being Field Consul from last turn, and also trying to track how many extra points of Influence the Aristocrats had farmed.)

That means Cinc will also be HRAO and thus the new Presiding Magistrate for this Senate.

There isn't any other Mandatory Business for this Senate, so it's now up to I.I. to decide how many more, if any, Legions to Propose Raising; with an eye toward future Proposals this Turn on how to send Cami and/or himself to War.

(If I.I. does insist on a roll off before then, which I doubt, we'll cross that bridge first.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 17, 2018, 02:17:44 PM
Am I correct in saying that if we send both consuls to war, the Field Consul would have the first shot at the Spolia Opima since he must be sent off before the Rome Consul? If so, I would indeed prefer for the assignments to be determined by a roll.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 02:32:54 PM
Am I correct in saying that if we send both consuls to war, the Field Consul would have the first shot at the Spolia Opima since he must be sent off before the Rome Consul? If so, I would indeed prefer for the assignments to be determined by a roll.

Ah, good question!

Both Consuls can be sent out on the same Turn -- and if the highest ranking officer doesn't resign his Presiding Magistrate post before departing Rome, then he closes the Senate with his departure, so the the standard example is that when the Roman Consul leaves for War the Senate closes.

As a general rule, the fights are resolved in the order of deployment first, and then by some other factors if they've been stacking up. (Later in the game Governors can get into fights with Wars from their Province areas, for example.) So again the standard example is that the Field Consul gets sent first, and then the Roman Consul; who closes the Senate by his departure for War; and then the Combat Phase comes along and I fight the Field Consul's battle first, then the Roman Consul's.

Consequently, under normal conditions, yes the Field Consul would get first shot at the Opima Spoila by a Victory, even though the Roman Consul will also be fighting a War next on the same Turn.

There are ways for the Roman Consul to game the system, however, within the rules, although this can require some political bargaining. ...I'm kind of loath to provide an example, though!? This is where Players should exercise political ingenuity. You've got enough exposure to the rules as they exist so far, to come up with political strategies aimed at getting your Consul in a better position to win the Spolia.

(Note that this card represents the game tempting Players to possibly cripple the cooperation of the Republic, and thus the survival of the Republic, by competing to get the unique one-time prize which can only be given to the first senator who earns it....  >:D )
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 17, 2018, 02:34:58 PM
We can't get the Spolia Opima this turn, it requires a war with a leader.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 02:41:04 PM
Ah, right! -- whew, crisis avoided.  :bd:
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 17, 2018, 02:45:37 PM
Ah, right. I'm content to take Rome Consul then. My bonus influence will go to Cornelius.

As Erax suggested, I propose that we raise the last 3 legions and then send Camillus with 4 against the Veientine War and Cincinnatus with 3 to fight the Volscian War (not sure if all of those need to constitute separate proposals).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 17, 2018, 03:06:43 PM
I think JP is allowing us to bundle all those together for ease of play. If it's allowed, I'll vote in favor, it was my suggestion after all.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 03:42:26 PM
Those are two different kinds of Proposals, so raising the Legions comes first. The other two Proposals are the same kind (deploying a Force to a War) so they can be batched.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 03:47:05 PM
2nd Proposal then (1st was for Consuls): raise the last three possible Legions. Cost will be 30 Talents now, and another 6 Talents per year ongoing.

I.I.'s Aristocrats naturally vote pro; and so do the Progressives. I'll set up the tallies soon when I get home.

Unless and until I.I. provides a voting schedule, any Faction can vote whenever on this Proposal.

(The deployment of Forces is a separate category and must be separate proposal, and is not yet being voted on. Note that the PontMax and the priests do NOT get extra votes for or against the current proposal: they only get extra votes on propositions of Force deployment or recall.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 17, 2018, 04:29:45 PM
I'll vote for
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 17, 2018, 05:01:15 PM
populists:

legion increase - aye
deployment as suggested - aye
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 05:24:06 PM
I'll keep in mind the deployment batch voting for later, which will skip things along.

For raising 3 more Legions, the voting stands at +7+2 Aristocrats; +3 Progressives; +5+2 Militarists; +6+1+1 Popularists = 27 pro vs 0 con.

There are only 24 potential votes remaining against (the Conservatives have 1 knight now who can vote double against any proposals), and there's no advantage for them to register voting against, so this Proposal passes.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 17, 2018, 05:28:45 PM
I now make the proposal to deploy Camillus with 4 legions against the Veientine War and then Cincinnatus with 3 legions against the Volscian War.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 05:35:48 PM
Republic Treasury down 30 to 36.

3rd and 4th Proposals are of the same category, and so are being batched per I.I.

Aristocrats necessarily vote 9, Progressives already indicated they would vote +3 again; Populists already indicate they will vote +8 again.

Vote stands at 20 for, 0 con.

Tripoli might have already indicated a "for" as well, but I can't tell for sure so I have to count the Militarists as not having voted yet. This leaves 31 still potentially against (including AzTank's activist knight).

Any further vote by any Faction, including Tripoli's 7 Militarists, will be a solid majority with no benefit to further voting.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 17, 2018, 06:44:08 PM
Yep, my vote was for the proposal for raising the legions.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 17, 2018, 06:49:58 PM
Yep, my vote was for the proposal for raising the legions.

....okay, so are you voting yes or no for deploying the legions?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 18, 2018, 06:45:30 AM
If the vote for raising the legions passes, and we therefore have the number of legions that the deployment proposal requires, then yes, I will also vote for the deployment of the legions as per the proposal.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 06:47:56 AM
Ah! -- got it. Yes, the vote for raising the Legions already passed with a majority (things moved really quickly yesterday!) We're now doing the force deployment vote (batching the two deployment proposals).

It's all good now. You cast the deciding vote for deployment.  O:-) (And also AzTank dropped a note in hangout chat that the Conservatives would also vote for the deployment.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 06:57:01 AM
So, with that Proposal settled, the Presiding Magistrate -- currently the Roman Consul -- leaves the Senate, and automatically closes the Senate in going.

I'll be resolving the Combat Phase later today. (Around 9 hours from now.)

Meanwhile! -- looking forward, no one has so many Faction cards in your hand that you need to discard (or donate off) yet. So unless someone wants to trade or donate cards for consideration, I'll be double-checking whether anyone has valid Statesmen and/or Concessions to play, and then moving along to Turn Four's Mortality Phase, then the first segment of the Revenue Phase pretty quickly tonight (allowing some asynch lag for playing any such valid Faction cards).

Meanwhile, looking further forward! -- odds are good that the Republic may enter the Italian Era next Turn.  <:-) This will trigger a few game differences, but nothing that Players need to worry about planning to adjust for now. I'll discuss those differences when we cross that bridge.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 05:19:03 PM
With Cincinnatus and Camilius gone to war, the Aristocrats have 16 Total Influence and 7 Normal Vote tally; and the Conservatives have 20 Total Influence and 8 Normal Vote tally. Of course, the Senate is closed so the voting tally doesn't matter any more this Turn -- but if the senators don't come home from War immediately, this will become a factor next Turn...!

Fabius of the Conservatives is the highest ranking available officer left behind, as the Pontifex Maximus.

Let's check in at the Fronts:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2154/87G1at.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 05:30:37 PM
(Due to quirkiness in how the game processes gravity and physics, the counters are currently shiver-creeping along in a hilarious fashion. Clearly the Marian reforms haven't happened yet...  :)) )

In lieu of other factors, the War with the oldest printed date gets resolved first.

So, Quinctius Cincinnatus vs. the Volscii!!

Cinc has led the 1st through 3rd Legions to the Volscia border, and prepares to receive the alea fati.

Total Legions: 3
Commander's Mil up to Legion total: +3
War Strength: -2

= Dice Roll Modifier +4

Add to 3d6 total...

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 4, 6, 2, total 12[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 06:08:48 PM
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9536/RH5RMB.jpg)

Add DRM 4 to 3d6 total 12 (no D/S result) = 16.

Victory! -- with 2 Legions as casualties. 1st and 2nd Legions fail their rolls last, and go back to the potential Force Pool. 3rd Legion goes back to Active Pool. Draws 2 Mortality chits, but Cinc's family is safe.

Unrest down 1 from 1 to 0. Republic gains 5 Talents from spoils, up to 41. New local territory unlocks Tax Farming Concessions 3 and 4.

Cinís Popularity goes up half War strength, so 2 / 2 = +1; but he loses that point again for losing two Legions. Influence also goes up by the same +1, from 10 to 11. Aristocrats farm 1 extra Inf point to be given to another Aristo senator. New Total Influence 28; Normal Vote recovers to 9.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 18, 2018, 06:09:47 PM
Extra influence to Valerius.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 06:18:30 PM
Marcus Furius Camillus declares ďTeneat dolor meus!Ē

Total Legions: 4
Camís consequent Mil limit: +4
War power: -4
Net DRM: +4

Roll 3d6...

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 6, 1, 2, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 06:34:39 PM
Add DRM +4 to 3d6 roll total 9 (no D/S result) = 13. Stalemate, no losses!

All Legions remain alive, no Mortality chits drawn for Camilus. Camy loses Field Marshal office (for being away from Rome on extended campaign, not for the non-Victory exactly), and becomes the Republicís first Proconsul!

Proconsuls cannot take units out to a War, and have no authority back at the Senate, but can receive reinforcement units, and can attack Wars. They can be recalled by the Senate (once a Senate is in session), and can be reinforced by a Consul arriving to attack the War with his own Force.

4 remaining Legions >= War Land Force 4, so ďminimum ForceĒ applies. War counts as Prosecuted for this Turn, so will not move to Unprosecuted slot. (If minimum Force does not remain, War would count as Unprosecuted.)

The rules, fortunately, do not ever require extra upkeep for units away from Rome, only the usual 2 Talents per turn.

This ends the Combat Phase!

I will now double-check Players for valid Faction cards able to be played in the Revolution Phase.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 06:54:36 PM
TURN THREE -- REVOLUTION PHASE
-----------------------------------------

If any Players have valid Concessions and/or Statesmen to play to their mat, I have sent you a p-mail about it by now.

No one is able to Rebel against the Senate yet until the Early Era (and if you have enough Influence).

No one needs to reduce your Faction cards, so play any valid ones I've mentioned to you privately, and/or trade or donate for considerations as you see fit.

I'll start processing the first Phases of Turn Four, and if Players declare any cards I'll process those post hoc.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 18, 2018, 07:10:48 PM
TURN FOUR -- MORTALITY PHASE
--------------------------------------

Congratulations on the Republic surviving to Turn 4! Unrest is at a perfect low, the Republic's Treasury is reasonably full with more on the way soon, and your first Proconsul is handily keeping the nearby city of Veii from invading your borders.

Nor are there any Immanent Wars to Activate.


The Furies are apparently infatuated with the Flaminian boys, however, for after a vigorous shuffle, family #13 is drawn from the death bag again!!  :wow:

(http://www.rocweb.de/xwp_guide/season_6/s6_01_d/screenshots/s6_01_11.jpg)

(...not necessarily the best trio to catch the affections of?)

Fortunately, the family sends yet another new scion as Senator immediately, to keep control of the Faction Leadership. So in effect all that happens is Flamís popularity goes back to 0 from 2. Total Influence and Normal Vote Tallies remain the same (5 and 3).


I don't suppose it's much of a spoiler to confirm that there is at least one valid Faction card to be played from the Revolution Phase, which will naturally affect at least one Faction income calculation; so I'll wait until the Players have caught up before proceeding.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 19, 2018, 03:10:15 AM
Plautius gets another Tax Farmer Concession.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 19, 2018, 07:16:53 AM
Tripoli has told me by p-mail, that he's going to give a Tax Concession to Julius.

So I'll resolve those later this afternoon, 8 or 9 hours from now, and present the Players with their Faction accounting and income options for this Turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 19, 2018, 06:20:09 PM
TURN FOUR -- REVENUE PHASE
-----------------------------------

Segment One, Faction Income.

All Factions will have enough new Total that any number of Players could choose one of their senators to put on the lowest level of games (7 Talents), but there's no Unrest to reduce so be aware you'd only be buying 1 Popularity this way. (Though the Popularists would farm another 1 Pop as well; and Pop is how they get their activist votes.)

Some Factions will have enough new Total that a senator could donate 10 Talents to the Republic and pick up 1 Influence (which the Aristocrats would then spawn another Inf point from).

All Factions will have enough to give at least one senator 5 Talents for an automatic knight persuasion.

The Conservative Faction Leader Camilus is still off at War; but senators at War still generate all income anyway. I've copy-pasted him into the Conservative mat snapshot, for convenience!

Starting with Player One, clockwise:

I.I.ís Aristocrats: 0 starting cash; +0 senator cash; +3 +2 senator incomes; +1 +1 knight incomes; +3 Harbor Fees; +3 paid back by the Progressives (finishing contract) = new Faction Total 13 Talents.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9859/kcmBOO.jpg)

Tripoliís Militarists: 8 starting cash; +0 senator cash; +3 +1 senator income; +1 +1 knight income; +2 Tax Farming = new Faction Total 16 Talents.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6565/DrjQiA.jpg)

The Frogís Plutocrats: 3 starting cash; +0 senator cash; +5 (Plutocrat bonus) +2 senator income; +2x2 (Plutocrat bonus) knight income; plus 0 Concessions = 14 Talents.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/438/WjSPkJ.jpg)

AzTankís Conservatives: 5 starting cash; +2 +2 +2 +2 senator cash; +3 +3 senator income; +1 knight income; +0 Concessions; +4 (1d6 roll) PontMax income = 24 Talents.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1638/tr1nsr.jpg)

Malizeís Populists: 3 starting cash; +0 senator cash; +3 +1 senator income; +1 knight income; +3 Mining Concession = 11 Talents.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/702/IOgdcs.jpg)

Eraxís Progressives: 0 starting cash; +0 senator cash; +3 +1 senator income; +0 knight income; +2 +2 Tax Faming Concessions; -3 paid back to the Aristocrats (completing that loan) = 5 Talents.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6320/wnRJWM.jpg)

Erax is going to be away from his computer for a while, so he p-mailed me with distribution instructions: 2 to each senator, keeping 1. I've already made the adjustments in the snapshot.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 19, 2018, 06:43:24 PM
5 to Cornelius, 2 each to Cincinnatus and Valerius.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 19, 2018, 07:13:40 PM
I should add that not only do Proconsuls generate income, they can receive distributions and spend the money while still on campaign. The risk of course is that if they're killed, any unspent cash they're carrying will be lost.

This could be relevant to AzTank this Turn, but might be relevant for any Faction's senators later.  O:-)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 19, 2018, 11:38:07 PM
Populist ó 5 to Aurelius, remainder stays in faction cash
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 20, 2018, 04:43:14 AM
Militarists: 5 to Manlius, Remainder to faction cash
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 07:29:38 AM
The Frog sends a chat message that he'll give 4 Talents to each of his senators and keep the rest in Faction cash.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 20, 2018, 09:46:08 AM
Distribute 4 to each of my 4 guys, even the one on campaign.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 12:36:16 PM
Okay, back from overtime work this morning, and I'm about to run the clock, implementing distributions, then advancing on into the Forum Phase.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 12:55:03 PM
Segment 3 of the Revenue Phase

Republic income: 41 starting cash; +30 normal income; +25 Allied Enthusiasm (event resolved); -10 for Active Veientine War; (-2 upkeep x 5 Active Legions = ) -10 unit upkeep; -0 Land Bills = new total 76 Talents!  :bd:

I should however remind everyone, that this includes no less than seventy-five Talents donated to the Republic by Allied Enthusiasm, i.e. by sheer random luck. ;)

All random Event markers in the Forum are deleted; no historical Events to discard (Spolia Opima remains primed).

Time to start building history again! Will the Republic enter the Italian Era this Turn? (If not, you can be practically guaranteed next Turn...)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 01:04:04 PM
TURN FOUR -- FORUM PHASE
---------------------------------

This time Player One himself, I.I., will play the starting round, clockwise from there. So the play order this Turn will be:

Aristocrats
Militarists
Plutocrats
Conservatives
Populists
and then Progressives (which will be handy for Erax since he may be away from the computer until after the weekend.)

This time, I'm going to ask each Player for a vote as we go around the table, on whether I should randomly assign two more Rounds this Turn. This will give the Players the option each Turn (starting now and going forward) to advance the play clock 33% faster, and also give two random players an extra 'round' for making a persuasion attempt or whatever. But if the Republic is going sucky (unlike right now), then Players can vote against it of course. I'll let Players change their votes at will, as they evaluate new Events and Scenarios arriving, up to the point where I finish the last standard round.


Kicking off with I.I.'s Aristocrats, then! -- rolling their Event/Scenario dice:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 3, 6, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 20, 2018, 01:16:15 PM
Cornelius will take a knight with 5 cash.

I'll vote against for the moment.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 01:19:08 PM
It's not a 7, so it's a Scenario draw. There are 5 Scenarios remaining in the Latin Era, and now 4 after the draw.

The Aristocrats draw a Faction card, which I.I. adds to his empty hand. I've sent him a Pmail already about what he drew, and whether/when he can play it.

I'll implement your knight pronto.

As far as other Players making plans go: you already know I won't be drawing more family Senators this Era (because I had to go into the Italian Era for a Senator to create the Progressive Faction with), so the only senators available for Persuasion are already assigned to the Players. The most vulnerable right now are Erax's two, who each have a Loyalty of 6 plus 2 Talents personal treasury, thus -8, minus another 7 for being in a Faction already, equals -15. A few other senators on the board have -16 and -17 ratings; and some senators have enough Influence + Oratory + personal cash to possibly but improbably persuade them to join your Factions instead. It would be a super-dickish move to snipe senators from the new players, however! -- but if you're curious about other players, drop me a question by p-mail.

No senator after income distribution this Turn, has enough personal cash to finance even first-level Games; and if you did, you'd only pick up 1 Popularity point (since there's no unrest).

Consequently, the main two choices this Turn for each Player will be as usual: who do you want to try for a knight (if anyone), and do you want to keep or change your Faction Leader?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 01:30:52 PM
Cinc sacrifices 5 Talents to gain a knight (his first, a little surprisingly!); Normal Vote Tally goes up to 10. I will remind everyone later, that with Camilus of the Conservatives away from Rome, the Aristocrats have the highest total Influence at 28, and so their knights will vote x2 on all topics pro or con! -- so in effect I.I. has 13 votes for now, which will definitely hold through any Mandatory Business in the Senate Phase.

Current votes on 2 extra rounds are 0 to -1.

4 Scenarios remaining in the Latin Era.


Next up, Tripoli's Militarists, roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 1, 6, total 7[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 01:31:38 PM
7 is a random event, so another 3d6...

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 3, 5, 5, total 13[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 01:36:45 PM
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8990/nQLKFu.jpg)

Wow!!  :o I'm kind of afraid to ask how y'all are inspiring such enthusiasm from Rome's local allies! That'll be another 25 Talents to the Republic Treasury next turn. (For a total of 100 in the game so far!  :o )

Tripoli, do you want Manlius to sacrifice his 5 Talents for an automatic knight? And do you want to keep or change your Faction Leader? Also, do you have a current vote on playing a 7th and 8th round this Turn?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 20, 2018, 04:05:22 PM
Populists:

Aurelius spends 5 for a Knight
No leader change
Nay on extra rounds
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 20, 2018, 04:49:03 PM
Yep-I'll be going after a 5th knight with Manlilus' gold, so it should be an automatic. No change on faction leader.  I'm in favor of an 8th round
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 05:10:04 PM
Yep-I'll be going after a 5th knight with Manlilus' gold, so it should be an automatic.

The knight is indeed automatically added as the minion of Manlius, but he and Julius only had 1 each. (Which is why each of them, as Militarist, had a +1 to their Mil scores.) Some of your persuasion rolls on prior Turns failed.

Manly has 2 knights now, Julius has 1. Manny's Mil score goes up to 7 -- so he could make full use of all 7 possible Legions! The Vote tally for the Militarists goes up to 8.

Votes for extra rounds this Turn are +1 and -1 (with at least 1 vote pending when we get there.)


The Frog's Plutocrats are up next, and roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 1, total 7[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 05:11:36 PM
That's another Random Event! -- which means the Republic will not enter the Italian Era this Turn (unless there are extra rounds perhaps).

Rolling again for the specific result...

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 1, 6, 2, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 05:18:42 PM
Ouch! -- the Veientine War may have just gotten a little or a lot tougher!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3702/o0bRYu.jpg)

I'll have to roll that 'physically' on the TTS board, which has one black and two white dice to work with, once we're in Combat again.

The Frog sent me a text message saying he'll take as many knights as he can get! -- ... which, uh, is good advice, indeed, but doesn't actually instruct me which of his senators is sacrificing cash to try for a knight, nor how much of it.

Since each Plutocrat senator has 4 Talents, they each have an equal chance of only failing on a 1, so I'll just roll and see what happens...

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 3, total 3[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 05:27:40 PM
So a Plutocrat senator spent all 4 of his Talents and won a(nother?) knight as minion, but I don't know yet which one. Also, I don't know the Frog's vote on the extra rounds question.

AzTank's Conservatives roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 5, 1, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 20, 2018, 05:42:13 PM
Almost another Random Event, but not quite! This will be a Scenario draw.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/6660/fnIM45.jpg)

The Aequi, a one time ally of former King Tarquinius, living to the east of Latium in the Apennine Mountains, have decided that now is the time to take his territory while his successors are distracted!

Historically, this happened for the first time in 494 BCE, very shortly after Tarqy was ousted, and inspired the Senate to raise 10 Legions for the first time in Rome's history! -- but the Republic doesn't have those resources (yet) in this game. They also allied with the Volsci when Coriolanus led them to attempt a coup over the Senate.

Fortunately, the Aequian War(s) lacks much power in this game, at a Land Strength of only 2. With Allies threatening to desert, however, there's a 50/50 chance of them adding 1d6 power temporarily this Turn for that fight! Cincinnatus voids Disaster and Standoff automatic failure rolls against the Aequian War, but he can't be Consul again this Turn. (And no other Statesman on the board has this ability.)


Anyway, I'll need AzTank's choices now on who should sacrifice how many Talents (all his senators have 4 each) for a knight roll; and also his vote on whether to add two extra rounds to the Forum Phase this Turn.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 21, 2018, 10:12:00 AM
Papirius and Fabius each spend two for knights. Conservatives vote yes on extra rounds.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 21, 2018, 12:23:53 PM
The Frog notes from chat, that Fulvius is who used up his 4 Talents and who got the knight. Plutocrat Vote Tally increases to 12.

AzTank notes from chat that Papirius will be who tries for the knight this time; and if he gets it, and if the Players end up voting for extra rounds, and if he draws one of the extra rounds, then Fabius will try next time.

Papirius spends his 4 Talents; anything other than a 1 will win him a knight!

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 3, total 3[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 21, 2018, 12:30:16 PM
That's a win!  Normal Vote Tally goes up to 9.

Currently the vote for extra rounds is even at 2  and -2.

Malize upthread votes against the extra rounds, thus 2 and -3. Even if Erax votes for them, it'll be a tie not a majority, so no extra rounds this Turn.

Malize's Populists roll for an Event or Scenario:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 1, 2, total 3[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 21, 2018, 12:38:28 PM
Not 7, so it's a Scenario, and he draws a historical Event:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7056/SYYju5.jpg)

And that's going to change the game temporarily, and permanently!

I'll discuss the Twelve Tables in a minute (although the card is fairly detailed). First, finishing out Malize's round, as per his instructions upthread, Aurelius spends all 5 of his Talents on an automatic knight persuasion. Vote Tally goes up to 9. No Leader change.

I'll have to resolve some things in the historical event before going on to Erax's round.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 21, 2018, 01:05:19 PM
For historical context: Rome's laws had become a jumbled mess, kept somewhat secretly in the temples, which of course benefited the Patricians who alone had access to check the laws. The institution of the Republic hadn't exactly solved this problem! -- and the jumbling of the law was starting to hamper the Patricians themselves, not least fostering corruption among the senators exploiting contradictory and unclear laws.

So with agitation from the plebian citizens, and from populist senators, and even from some senators who just wanted more clarity so as not to fall foul of the law, a reformatory Tribunal Council was elected by the Senate: three Consuls rather than the usual pair of Consuls.

There's some dispute even among ancient historians (as well as modern) about whether the Consular Tribunes were meant to be permanent or temporary, but in any case their main task for the year was to study and harmonize the jumbled mess of Roman Law. At the end of their first year in office, they produced ten tablets of codified law to serve as the basis of Republican Law going forward. But they pleaded an extension of their term since there was still work to be done.

In the second year they produced two more tablets. But the Senate suspected that the Consuls were conspiring to seize permanent power for themselves as Consuls for Life, and a special prosecutor convicted them, stripping their titles and returning the Republic to two new Consuls elected each year. Yet it was generally agreed that the Consular Tribunes had done their job, and the 12 Tablets became the basis of Roman law for the Republic and for the subsequent Empire (out through the end of Constantinople near the start of the Renaissance period)!


What does that mean in game terms?

First, each senator with a major office aside from any Proconsuls (who only have consular authority in the field for fighting a war) and the Pontifex Maximus, loses his office, and also loses 1 Influence point due to suspicion of corruption. In practice for this game, that means Cincinnatus stops being Roman Consul and his Inf goes down to 10 (with the Aristocrat total going down to 27). There is no Field Consul right now; Camilus is a Proconsul in the field on extended campaign, so he's safe. And no other offices aside from PontMax have unlocked yet. The HRAO is now Fabius of the Conservatives, as Pontifex Maximus. He'll be the one to start the Senate soon.

Second, for one Turn only, the Senate will elect three Consuls, the Consular Tribunes. More on this when the Senate opens.

Third, if there was a senatorial family in the Curia waiting to respawn (or destroyed Concessions, or an inactive Enemy Leader), rolls regarding them would add +1 to their total. But nothing like that is waiting, so there will be no such effect for this game. (The 12 Tables are of course a unique historical event, so won't be returning.)

Fourth, next Turn (not this Turn), a new Senatorial office will unlock: the Censor. More about this later, but this is the permanent change in the game. Essentially the game is going to tempt players into competing against each other, instead of cooperating, by prosecuting each other with the Censorial office.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 21, 2018, 01:09:38 PM
Time for Erax's Progressives. He has already registered a vote against extra rounds, but with Malize's vote it doesn't matter now, there won't be extra rounds this Turn (unless two people change their vote to 'for' before I'm done processing Erax!)

Rolling for Event/Scenario:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 2, 4, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 21, 2018, 01:19:12 PM
That's a Scenario, and Erax draws a Faction card, which he puts with the other one in his hand. I've p-mailed Erax to explain what it is, and when he can use it.

Plautius and Flaminius each have 2 Talents. I'll need to know which one will be rolling for a knight, and how much cash will be spent on the attempt. Also whether the Leader should change. It would be impossible for either of them to persuade another senator to join, so that won't be an option (for this Turn).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 22, 2018, 01:26:46 PM
Sorry guys, I had guests over for the weekend and wasn't home much.

Flaminius spends one on a possible knight, no leader change.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 01:52:49 PM
I'll have to wait until later tonight to make adjustments and run the Population Phase, but we can do the roll now. If he spends 1 Talent, then a 5 or 6 will win:

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 6, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 02:15:55 PM
Natural 6, that's a win! -- I'll add the knight tonight, and adjust up the normal vote tally.

Since the majority voted for no extra rounds (though a tie would also stay normal, no extra rounds), this ends the Forum Phase.

As preparation for upcoming phases, the Pontifex Maximus will be giving the State of Republic speech this Turn. Unrest is at zero, so it's physically impossible to lose the game this Turn by mob revolt, and odds are good unrest won't go up. I think Publius has some popularity to help shift off some of the worst results, too (working from memory here, don't hold me to that).

AzTank will be leading the start of the Senate, since his faction has the HRAO (the PontMax in this case), and his first mandatory business will be to Propose three Consuls, the Consular Tribunal. Each Consul will pick up 2 (not 3) Influence. (Same 6 influence total, divided out by 3 instead of 2 senators.)

Next Turn we'll be back to 2 Consuls for the rest of the game, at no penalty for the elected Tribunal (unlike historically!) so Players shouldn't worry about being elected: there is no downside in the game rules to being on the Tribunal.

Valid senators must be in Rome (not captured or at war), and must NOT be PontMax. So for practical purposes that's everyone but two of AzTank's senators (Camilius, off at war, and whoever the PontMax is, Fabius iirc.)

The Consular Tribunal has all the same characteristics of normal Consuls, including the authority to lead a Force to War -- this is one of the few ways to send out more than two senators per Turn to War if necessary, and while that didn't happen historically it's a handy way to clean up accumulated Wars before the Italian Era starts. However, I'm pretty sure (I'll check the rules) that the Senate can also vote to just send reinforcements to a commander already in the field. The difference is that the arriving Legions will operate under the Proconsul's command, while sending a Force with a Consul (or with a Dictator in emergencies but the Republic hasn't triggered enough of a crisis to unlock the Dictator office yet) means that two Leaders will be attacking the same War, one after the other, using distinct sets of Legions.

Anyway, you'll need to set up three Consuls this turn, all at once (like two Consuls normally), and I think this will be all the Mandatory Business for the Turn. Next Turn you'll start electing a Censor, but we'll crash that boat when we get to it. ;)

The HRAO, and thus the Presiding Magistrate post, will be decided between the three Consuls by Influence, then Oratory, with the oldest family (lowest family number) breaking any final ties. (I'm working from memory here, I'll have to check the rules; it might be by agreement and/or dicing as with the normal Roman and Field Consuls.)


So, Players should be looking ahead to how you're going to deal with the two current Wars, one of which (the Veientine) already has a competent commander though possibly not the most competent available. If you intend to replace him with, for example, Manlius (who can fully command all seven currently possible Legions, some of which will have to be raised again), then you'll need to vote to Recall him (at no personal penalty to him, if I recall correctly but I'll check), and then send a new Consul (one of the elected Tribunal) to replace him (with or without extra units -- the units currently in the field can stay there but they won't fight without a Commander leading them.)

I will note that Camilus does still void the D/S results for this War, and he can command all 7 Legions if you max his reinforcements out: he just can't help more than 5 of them fight to their full potential. His War Power with 7 Legions would be (5x2) + 2 = 12. Julius' would be (6x2) + 1 = 13. The Manly One would be 7x2=14.  :coolsmiley: But neither Julius nor Manly would be able to void a D/S roll.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 03:00:29 PM
Let's see, I've got 30 minutes still at the house before I leave for the niece-party, so let's see if I can catch up!

TURN FOUR -- POPULATION PHASE
---------------------------------------

Nothing in the Curia currently to roll for, although the 12 Tables Event would add +1 to any such rolls this Turn.

No currently Unprosecuted Wars, and no Drought effects, so no Unrest adjustments. Unrest at 0.

Fabius is HRAO as PontMax currently (thanks to 12 Table Event), so he opens the Senate as Presiding Magistrate with the State of Republic Speech. Roll 3d6:

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 2, 3, 6, total 11[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 03:22:11 PM
Fabius' Popularity 2 - 0 unrest + 3d6 total 11 = 13. That's a No Change. (The only plausible bad results in this circumstance might have been adding 1, 2, or maybe 3 to Unrest.)

With that, the Senate opens.

AzTank's Fabius will lead out with a Proposal on three senators for Consular Tribune, himself (as PontMax) and Camilus (at War as Proconsul) exempted.

Fabius as PontMax can also appoint one more senator as a priest at any time during this Phase, at will without a vote, if he wishes. Current priests are Fulvius of the Plutocrats, and Papirius of his own Conservatives.

I'll have to wait until tonight to post updated snapshots of the Player mats. Here's a snap of the current war situation, though:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/8338/O5GVmh.jpg)

Keep in mind that you've received a strong rumor, basically a 50/50 chance, that some of your allied support may temporarily desert this Turn, which you won't know for sure unless you fight. This won't be your Legions per se -- it's more like the logistic trains that keep them in supply. If this happens to a War you're fighting, the enemy will temporarily gain 1d6 force, which will factor into the dice-roll resolution. It can happen to either or both of the wars!

Also be aware that as long as you've got minimum Force at a War, which Camillus currently does, then he must attack the War. (If he has less than minimum Force, then his Player may opt to attack or not at his discretion, no personal penalty to the senator.) So if you don't want to attack that War this Turn, then you should either vote to pull back Camillus and/or at least one of his Legions (dropping him below the minimum force of 4 for this War). Legions parked at a War without a Commander, or at minimum Force with a Commander who opts out of attacking, will not be attacked by the War; but the War will be Unprosecuted, too. (Worth noting: if you do attack the War and you score less than a Victory and end up with less than minimum Force after casualties, the War will count as insufficiently prosecuted and thus as Unprosecuted!)

The rumors of Allied Desertion this Turn, will add some subtle factors into your decisions about how to handle the Wars this Turn.

Relatedly, the Republic has 76 Talents in the bank, and one Active Legion (the 3rd). Another two Legions (the 1st and 2nd) are waiting to be reconstituted in the Force Pool. The Republic can currently expect 30 Talents normal income next Turn, plus (yet!) another 25 Talents in Allied Enthusiasm.


That should be enough for preliminary discussions, if any happen tonight. I'll be back with snapshots before bedtime (probably)!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 22, 2018, 03:47:43 PM
I'd propose that we reinforce Camillus with all our legions or recall him and send Cincinnatus to fight the Aequii. Throwing everything at one war should minimize the risk of disaster if that event fires.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 22, 2018, 03:55:56 PM
Our options are: throw everything at the Aequian War, throw everything at the Veientine War or try a balanced approach like last turn. Given that 1) we are facing what amounts to a random reinforcement for BOTH wars (should we try to fight both) and 2) the Republic's treasury is practically overflowing and 3) unrest is low; I suggest we raise 2 legions and try to knock out the Veientine War with everything we have. We can weather one unprosecuted war next turn for -10 cash and +1 unrest.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 22, 2018, 04:03:54 PM
If the event doesn't fire (best case scenario), we have a 95% chance of victory.

If the event does fire (worst case scenario), it essentially takes out one of our dice, so we'd have to get 14+ on 2d6+8, which is still a 72% chance.

And JP, you can get the 'colored die' effect on forum code by rolling 2d6 and then a separate roll of 1d6.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 07:06:44 PM
^^ True on the colored die effect, good call.

Keep in mind that if you beat the Veientine War, the Republic will permanently gain an extra 10 Talents per Turn of income (effectively immediately on the following Turn), and will permanently unlock the 8th, 9th, and 10th Legions in logistic potential. So you'll have an easier time beating on new Wars coming up -- and on the Aequian War (which only has an equivalent power of 2 Legions).

The War against your neighboring Etruscan city of Veia, is arguably the single most important War in the Latin Era, for this reason. The Republic gets a one-time spoil harvest from other Wars, and some semi-permanent taxable farmland to manage (representing the agri publica, or public land, granted to senators usually for management, if I recall the term properly); but the city of Veia seriously levels up the Republic.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 07:30:41 PM
Snapshot updates for the Senate Phase of Turn Four!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5691/NsZMxN.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/5274/82KqzJ.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/6106/1W1j1z.jpg)

M. Furius Camillus is still at War, of course -- I just composited him into the mat photo for convenience. Being at War, he isn't eligible to be one of the new Consular Tribunes. (Neither is Fabius, due to being Pontifex Maximus.)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/4848/dBDFgo.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/4845/5TpHW8.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/2923/7SmGju.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 07:34:50 PM
As a note to AzTank: while the discussion of how to deal with the Wars is important, don't forget that your first (and possibly last, for this turn) duty as Presiding Magistrate, is to Propose three other senators (in Rome and not Fabius the PontMax) as Consuls.

Once that's done, the PM post will probably shift to some other Player, and he'll take over leading the Senate for the rest of this Turn, including making Proposals about whether to raise more Legions, which War(s) to prosecute, and how.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 22, 2018, 07:36:51 PM
Our options are: throw everything at the Aequian War, throw everything at the Veientine War or try a balanced approach like last turn. Given that 1) we are facing what amounts to a random reinforcement for BOTH wars (should we try to fight both) and 2) the Republic's treasury is practically overflowing and 3) unrest is low; I suggest we raise 2 legions and try to knock out the Veientine War with everything we have. We can weather one unprosecuted war next turn for -10 cash and +1 unrest.

I recommend fighting only one war this turn.  Because of the importance of the  Veientine war, this is the war that should be emphasized
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 22, 2018, 08:00:35 PM
If y'all decide to go after the Veientine War and leave Aequius (Aequia?) for next time, keep that plan in mind when AzTank proposes voting on senators, because whoever gets to be on the Tribunal Council this turn will not get to be one of the two regular Consuls (Roman or Field) on Turn Five. And Cincinnatus voids the Aequian D/S results.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 23, 2018, 07:23:23 AM
Our options are: throw everything at the Aequian War, throw everything at the Veientine War or try a balanced approach like last turn. Given that 1) we are facing what amounts to a random reinforcement for BOTH wars (should we try to fight both) and 2) the Republic's treasury is practically overflowing and 3) unrest is low; I suggest we raise 2 legions and try to knock out the Veientine War with everything we have. We can weather one unprosecuted war next turn for -10 cash and +1 unrest.

I recommend fighting only one war this turn.  Because of the importance of the  Veientine war, this is the war that should be emphasized

Concur on the Veientine war. Also, raising at least 2 legions.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 23, 2018, 07:26:57 AM
If y'all decide to go after the Veientine War and leave Aequius (Aequia?) for next time, keep that plan in mind when AzTank proposes voting on senators, because whoever gets to be on the Tribunal Council this turn will not get to be one of the two regular Consuls (Roman or Field) on Turn Five. And Cincinnatus voids the Aequian D/S results.

How about?

Papirus

Acilius

Valerius
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 23, 2018, 07:54:01 AM
Just for discussion, or are you calling the vote?

For ease of reference, Pap is here:

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img921/4848/dBDFgo.jpg)


Acilius is here:

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img923/6106/1W1j1z.jpg)


Valerius is here:

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img924/5691/NsZMxN.jpg)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 23, 2018, 08:36:58 AM
I would like to see some people who aren't Aristocrats, Plutocrats or Conservatives in office for a change.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 23, 2018, 08:47:14 AM
I would like to see some people who aren't Aristocrats, Plutocrats or Conservatives in office for a change.

Let's just say that all is not above the table, and quid pro quo is a real thing....:)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 23, 2018, 10:25:32 AM
As an outside observer, watching the political dynamics in this game continues to be fascinating.

Now, what are the newcomers and/or the Militarists going to do about it...

Some things to consider:

In the classic statement of economic scepticism, in the long run everyone's dead. ;) Various bouts of mortality will necessarily change the power dynamics. It doesn't happen fast, but it can happen quickly (so to speak)! In fact, mortality has hampered Erax's Progressives more than once already, but by the exact same token (or death bag) the Reaper can come for anyone.

The new two non-original Players come from a group (so does I.I., I think) from which they could recruit more Players for the remaining two slots. If the Progressives and the Neutralists formed a voting block, they could quickly become a terrifying minority power.

Starting next Turn, the Censor office will open up for elections (thanks to the 12 Tables). It's a post guaranteed to tempt players to go after their political enemies and generate more friction, to the destruction of the Republic.  >:D

Several people are holding Tribune cards -- this isn't much of a spoiler since the game setup includes several preliminary ones in the Latin Era. Their functionality hasn't yet unlocked, but when they do then Players will be able to make their own Proposals -- and veto the Proposals of other Players! This won't take away all power from the Presiding Magistrate, since the Tribune cards are one-time fire-and-discard usage, but it's going to change the political dynamics again in various ways.

After the Italian Era, the Provincial Eras start, where the Republic will need senators sent out of Rome to be Governors. While that's a good way to gain power, too, it means that, like senators at War, they aren't around in Rome to affect Senate voting. So the political dynamic is going to complexify and change once again. (This is when the main game starts, and you can provisionally expect the Tribune functionality to activate before then or during the Early Provincial.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 23, 2018, 08:12:03 PM
I would like to see some people who aren't Aristocrats, Plutocrats or Conservatives in office for a change.

Let's just say that all is not above the table, and quid pro quo is a real thing....:)

Okay -- but were you actually calling for a vote? And if so, did you have a voting order?
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 23, 2018, 08:44:45 PM
I would like to see some people who aren't Aristocrats, Plutocrats or Conservatives in office for a change.

Let's just say that all is not above the table, and quid pro quo is a real thing....:)

Okay -- but were you actually calling for a vote? And if so, did you have a voting order?

I'd vote in favour.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 23, 2018, 08:48:43 PM
I would like to see some people who aren't Aristocrats, Plutocrats or Conservatives in office for a change.

Let's just say that all is not above the table, and quid pro quo is a real thing....:)

Okay -- but were you actually calling for a vote? And if so, did you have a voting order?


Yes, calling for a vote, Conservatives first, they vote "For".  Next Plutocrats, Conservatives, Populists, Militarists and Progressives.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 23, 2018, 09:17:32 PM
Letting it run then!

The Militarists, Populists, and Progressives, have potentially 22 votes together against the Proposition.

The Aristocrats, starting things off, have 9 votes in favor. Plutocrats have potentially 12 either way; Aristocrats have potentially 13 either way (because they've got enough total Influence for their 3 knights to each bring x2 votes).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 24, 2018, 10:48:05 AM
I will vote for. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 24, 2018, 10:54:34 AM
Then the next Faction voting in favor will seal the Proposal 'for'. All remaining Factions will have to vote 'against' to foil the Proposal.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 24, 2018, 02:11:08 PM
The Aristocrats vote for.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 24, 2018, 03:27:36 PM
So that seals the vote. I'll process when I get back from dinner, tonight.

Tripoli will be on spotty internet access from now until Monday, so we'll keep that in mind when waiting for input. (He says he'll still check in on the thread when he can.)
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 24, 2018, 05:33:05 PM
All three senators gain Consular Tribune mark (and Prior Consul mark), and each gains 2 Influence.

Valerius Inf up to 9, which means since he has the highest Influence he becomes the HRAO and the Presiding Magistrate for this Senate; Aristo Inf up to 29. (The Consular Tribunes have no inherent superiority of office among them, unlike Roman and Field Consul.)

Acilius Inf up to 5; Plutocrat Inf up to 20.

Papirius Inf up to 6; Conservative Inf up to 22.

I.I. now controls the PM, so he runs this Turn's Senate going forward.

Consular Tribunes have no special duty in this game -- you don't have to work to create the Ten-and-then-Twelve Tables for example. Any CT can be sent to War in any order, except of course the current President who must resign his post to the next CT downstream (Papirius of the Conservatives, in this case) in order to be sent out before other CTs.


This ends the Mandatory Business for this Senate.

Useless but possible non-Mandatory Business would include passing a Land Bill, which I mention only for the sake of completeness. I.I. could propose stripping Fabius of his PontMax office, I suppose? -- and then assigning a new PontMax (which would then become Mandatory Business)? The two actions would not be simultaneous, unlike the PontMax reassigning a priesthood. Another useless Proposal would be to Disband the 3rd Legion.

Useful Proposals would include possibly Raising the 1st and/or 2nd Legions again; Deploying a Relief Force of one or more Legions to Camilius (this would not require a distinct Leader); Recalling Cam if y'all don't want him commanding that War any longer for some reason; Deploying a Support Force with a Consular Tribune as Leader to create a separate attack on Cam's War; and/or Deploying a Force under a CT to the Aequian War.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 24, 2018, 06:06:51 PM
Useful Proposals would include possibly Raising the 1st and/or 2nd Legions again; Deploying a Relief Force of one or more Legions to Camilius (this would not require a distinct Leader); Recalling Cam if y'all don't want him commanding that War any longer for some reason; Deploying a Support Force with a Consular Tribune as Leader to create a separate attack on Cam's War; and/or Deploying a Force under a CT to the Aequian War.

We need to send troops to Cam to kick the war in the teeth and finish it.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 24, 2018, 06:21:40 PM
That would certainly give the Republic a permanent increase in income and logistic capability, too.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 24, 2018, 06:24:55 PM
If the event doesn't fire (best case scenario), we have a 95% chance of victory.

If the event does fire (worst case scenario), it essentially takes out one of our dice, so we'd have to get 14+ on 2d6+8, which is still a 72% chance.

And JP, you can get the 'colored die' effect on forum code by rolling 2d6 and then a separate roll of 1d6.

Here is Erax's prior analysis again, from upthread, for convenience. The Event he's talking about is the 50/50 chance of Allies Deserting any fight this Turn. He's assuming the two potential remaining Legions are raised again and sent as a Reinforcement (aka Relief) Force to Camillus, for him to use (not replacing him nor as a follow-up attack under someone else's command).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 24, 2018, 06:33:04 PM
Valerius first proposes that the Republic raise the last two legions.

Unless somebody has a good reason to replace Camillus, I will be sending him all our legions next.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 24, 2018, 07:03:02 PM
Since he didn't specify a voting order with the Proposition, I'll assume there is none, opening the floor to any Player to vote at your preferred convenience.

The Aristocrats start with 7 normal, plus 3 knight, plus 3 more (activist x2) knight = 13 votes for.

As a reminder for reference, the Republic currently has 76 Talents in its Treasury, with an expected net income (not counting the Proposed Legions or any Victories) of 30 + 25 - (2x5) upkeep - (10x2) War cost = 25 more Talents next Turn.

Raising these Legions will cost 20 Talents now, 2x2=4 more upkeep Talents ongoing.

If you defeat the War, the Republic will earn another 10 Talents each Turn permanently (new base income = 40).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 25, 2018, 01:18:07 AM
The Progressives vote in favor of raising two legions.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 07:38:16 AM
The Frog sent me a message voting 'for'.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 25, 2018, 09:04:47 AM
conservatives, vote "For"
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 11:26:25 AM
Plutocrats add 9 + 3 knight votes; Conservatives add 8 + 1 knight; Progressives add 3 + 1 knight. So we're up to 13 (Aristocrats) + 25 others = 38.

That's a solid majority (17 votes remaining), so I'll process after work.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 11:38:58 AM
Unless somebody has a good reason to replace Camillus, I will be sending him all our legions next.

He didn't spell it out, but I'm inferring from context that he means this as an intention for a formal Proposal if X happens, which it has.

So that's 13 votes for sending all three (now) Active Legions to Reinforce Camillus. Presumably voting order is at will.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 25, 2018, 12:00:12 PM
Conservatives vote "for" sending legions to Cam
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 03:25:55 PM
We already know that Tripoli's Militarists and Erax's Progressives would vote in favor of throwing everything at Cam's War, so their votes can be added in as well.

That's 13 Aristo (including activist x2 knights); +8 Mils; +8 +1 (knights) +1 (priest on Deployment) +2 (PontMax double vote on Deployment) Conservs; +4 Progs = 37 votes so far 'for'.

Even if the Plutocrats and the Populists voted against the Proposal, they could only bring, respectively, 13 (including priest vote) +9 = 21 votes against, so the Proposal will pass.

Since no useful or unlocked Proposal options remain, this effectively ends the Senate, unless AzTank's Papirus the Pontifex Maximus wants to appoint or reassign a priest. For asynch purposes I'll allow some lag here, if so.

I'll process the Combat Phase soon.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 03:42:51 PM
TURN FOUR -- COMBAT PHASE
----------------------------------

Marcus Furius Camillus prepares to face the Fate of the Veii!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/3697/eGvR2H.jpg)

He has come well prepared. But whether Rome's allied logistic support defects their supplies to the Veians remains to be seen...

Total Legions = 7
Total Effective Commander rating = +5
Veian War Land Strength = -4
Die Roll Modifier = +8

Camillus rolls 3d6, ignoring any D/S results against this War -- but Allied Desertion means that if the total is even instead of odd, then the value of the first die gets counted in favor of Veia instead.

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 2, 6, 5, total 13[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 04:08:00 PM
13!! -- the auxiliaries support the Republic after all!

13+8 = 21. Any result over 17 is a total Victory, no casualties!!  :clap:  <:-)


Unrest -1, but itís already at minimum 0 (no unrest). No Enemy Leader defeated, so Spolia Opima doesnít trigger yet. No spoils for this War either. Instead, Romeís annual income increases by 10 Talents, up to 40! The 8th, 9th, and 10th Legions are added to the logistic Force Pool. This War is permanently discarded, and with no other Wars fought this Turn the Allied Desertion Event is removed.

Camillus gains half the War strength (or 4/2=2) in Influence (now 10) and Popularity (now 2). No casualties, so no Popularity lost, and no death chits drawn. Camillus returns to Rome, and his Legions (1st thru 7th inclusive) return to the Active Pool. Conservative Total Influence increases from 22 to 32; normal vote from 9 to 13. Camillusí Proconsul office ends.

This also ends the Combat Phase. Revolution Phase next, and the end of Turn Four!
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 04:21:26 PM
TURN FOUR -- REVOLUTION PHASE
---------------------------------------

No one can rebel against the Senate yet.

No previously dedicated Faction cards to pick up.

No Player needs to reduce their hand.

If you have a playable Concession or Statesman Faction card, I have p-mailed you already.

Since there is at least one card to be played, and since the play might be affected by Mortality, or might affect Revenue, I will hold up a little while before advancing into Turn Five.

Players may trade or donate Faction cards to each other immediately for a little while, with some lag allowed for asynch purposes. After a reasonable period, I'll regard any such transfer as Delayed for resolution at the end of Turn Five.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 25, 2018, 04:24:55 PM
Cornelius acquires tax farming privileges in the newly conquered lands (Tax Farm 1).
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 05:02:17 PM
TURN FIVE -- INTRODUCTION TO THE ITALIAN ERA
----------------------------------------------------------

While we're waiting, I'll talk a little about what can be expected as the game advances into its first new Era!  <:-)

0.) Obviously there will be some historical Events, including Wars and things of that sort, which will show up only in the Italian Era, and I'm not going to spoil those.

00.) Strictly speaking, the Italian Era hasn't started yet, but I've gone ahead and plopped the remaining Latin Era Scenario card onto the top of its pile. That makes 23 cards in the pile.

1.) A new Era typically starts when a card of its Era is first played openly face up somehow. That means an orange border card in this case. It also means that simply dealing out an orange border Faction card doesn't trigger the new Era, since I'm giving it to the Player face down.

2.) I say "typically", because the Italian (and for that matter the Latin) Era doesn't usually treat Early Era (white border) cards that way: Early Era cards don't usually trigger the Early Era.

3.) I say "usually" ;), because after a certain point the next Early Era (white-bordered) card played face-up will trigger the start of the Early Provincial Era, and thus the start of the main game! -- the Latin and Italian Eras are a tutorial prologue in effect, introducing much of the game functionality and rules progressively.

4.) When does the Early Era trigger? For the Italian and all subsequent Eras, during deck creation I took the last 6 cards of an Era and the first 6 cards of the next Era, having shuffled those Era decks already, and then shuffled those 12 cards together, stacking them under the current Era. There was a slight difference in doing this for the Italian Era, based on the "Birth of the Republic" expansion rules for distributing Early Era cards through the Latin and Italian Eras, but the basic concept is the same. Normally this means that cards for the next Era will start showing up randomly in a 50/50 distribution during the final 12 cards of an Era, and once a next-Era card gets played face up then any remaining cards in the deck are stacked on top of the next Era, triggering the start of that Era. Since the Italian Era has some selected white-bordered Early Era cards shuffled throughout it anyway, the normal rule applies a little differently: the Early Provincial Era can't start until there are only 6 cards remaining in the Italian deck. At that point, the next white-bordered card played face up after drawing from the 6 remaining, will trigger the Early Era.

(The "Early Era" and "Early Provincial Era" are the same thing; I just like to distinguish the main game Eras as "provincial", since otherwise the Latin and Italian Eras are Earlier-than-Early Eras.  ::) Provinces can't unlock until the "Early Era", so from that point the Eras are also "Provincial".)


5.) White-bordered "Early Era" Statesmen will start being dealt out as Faction cards to Players in the Italian Era. However, they will not be unlocked for play (during Revolutionary Phases as usual) until we're into the final 6 cards of the Italian Era.

6.) Once the Early Era starts, all currently active Italian and Latin Era Statesmen (yellow and orange borders) will retire, and so discard permanently out of play. If a Statesman's family card is already politically active under him, that family Senator will inherit all the Statesman's chips. (The families of Conservative Statesmen always inherit if active, so that'll be business as usual for AzTank.  ^-^ But this will be the only time it also applies for other Factions. Usually when Statesmen die, their families under them start over empty with their standard family stats, though still in the same Faction.) Otherwise the chips are lost with the Statesman as if he died. The Era cannot start by playing an Early Statesman on a pre-Early Statesman, except for Quinctius Flaminius, who can inherit from Cincinnatus this way -- he is the only Statesman who can thus inherit directly from another Statesman. However, once the Early Era is going, new Statesmen can be played on family Senators who have inherited chips from per-Early Statesmen, thus inheriting those chips from the family as usual for all Players.

7.) Once the Italian Era starts, several Senatorial Offices will grant +2 more Influence upon election.

8.) Once the Italian Era starts, a Random Event total of 15, which would normally be Allied Enthusiasm, will grant the Republic 4 Fleets from an alliance with Carthage instead! This is kind of insidious, since while you don't have to pay the 40 Talents to create them, you'll still have to pay 2 per Fleet per Turn for upkeep, and you won't have any opportunity to use them until some Wars of the Early Era arrive -- and when (not if) the 1st Punic War arrives, Carthage will take all survivors of those 4 Fleets back! (The expansion rules say the HRAO will decide which four fleets go back, but that doesn't make any sense, so I'm tweaking the rule. In the event of a Carthaginian Alliance, I'll deal out the 23rd through 25th Fleets as being from Carthage, since it's practically impossible for Rome to build more than 22 Fleets before the 1st Punic War triggers.)


I think that covers all the automatic rule changes for the Italian Era, once it happens, which should be during the Forum Phase of this upcoming Turn. Any other rule changes should happen as historical Events.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 05:20:37 PM
TURN FIVE -- MORTALITY PHASE
------------------------------------

As noted, Cornelius arranges a Tax Farming Concession for himself in some Latium areas which tried to support the last king Tarquinius in overthrowing the nascent Republic!

No Immanent Wars to promote to Active yet.

An x2 chip is drawn from the Sack of Death!! It gets put back in, and the sack thoroughly reshuffled again. Two chits will be drawn.

Patricians from families 21 and 25 die during the winter, but those families aren't politically active yet. (Or not enough to matter.  ::) ) Spurius Cassius Vicellinus of the Conservatives breathes a sigh of relief as the Kindly Ones pass him by. (His family is #24, and won't be politically active again until sometime in the Middle Era.)


This ends the Mortality Phase. I'll process Faction Incomes of the Revenue Phase next.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 06:25:59 PM
TURN FIVE -- REVENUE PHASE
----------------------------------

Before I do the report (with photos for convenience), each Faction has enough cash that one of their senators (in some cases two) could buy 1 influence by donating 10 Talents to the Republic, which without donations will definitely have a new net total of 97 Talents by the end of this Phase. AzTank has enough cash (29) that he could donate 25 Talents to give 3 Influence to one senator!

Looking ahead to the coming Forum Phase, all Factions have enough cash that one senator from each Faction could throw at least a level 1 Gladiatorial game (for 7 Talents); in some cases up to a level 3 (for 18 Talents). Unrest is currently zero, although who knows what will trigger during the Forum Phase? The assured goal would be to gain Popularity (1, 2, or 3 points depending on level of the games). Only 1 senator per Faction can Sponsor Games per Turn (unlike Donations to the Republic).

Of course everyone has enough to give one of your senators an automatic knight (sacrificing 5 Talents). New families might start becoming politically active in the Forum this Turn, however, so making sure your best persuader (Inf + Ora) has cash for bribery might or might not be a good idea again!

Finally, before the accounting starts: thanks to the 12 Tables historical Event, a Censor will be elected each Turn starting with this Senate, who will be able to prosecute senators on suspicion of corruption. There are two levels of suspicion, Minor and Major; and each triggering Concession (most of which happen automatically, though not always during the Revenue Phase) always generates a Minor marker (which stacks per Concession triggered) for its senator.

The upshot is that minor suspicion markers will now be given to senators starting from this Revenue Phase going forward. I'll explain more how this works out in practice, when we get to the Censor Proposal business of the Senate Phase this Turn. For now, all you need to know is that the only way to avoid minor suspicion from Concessions, is not to give your senators Concessions! ;) There's no way to get rid of suspicion markers (or Concessions for that matter) directly: you'll lose a marker, one way or another, during a Prosecution; and all your markers will disappear at the end of any Senate Phase; and if you lose a Concession somehow while you're still marked with suspicion, then you'll lose its mark, too. (The Censor cannot prosecute you over a Concession you don't have anymore.)

If you're wondering how to get a Major suspicion marker, the main way is to hold a Major Office: everything and anything from PontMax upward (including Censor). Those get assigned at the start of the Senate Phase, including starting this Turn. The PontMax can also earn a Major marker if he loses his PontMax office due to a run of Evil Omens. (He might otherwise not get one at the start of the Senate if he doesn't have another Major Office.)

The only other way I can think of offhand to get (the equivalent of) a Major marker, is for one of your senators to try to assassinate someone: if he gets caught, and if he isn't your Faction Leader, then your Leader goes immediately to a Special Major Prosecution for conspiracy to murder. But that's a case of where he gets a Major marker and immediately loses it (one way or another) by the trial.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 25, 2018, 06:43:24 PM
Okay, enough preliminaries. Time for the Faction accounting!  <:-)

I.Iís Aristocrats: 4 starting cash; +2 +2 senator cash; +3 +2 senator income; +3 knights income; +2 Tax Farming +3 Harbor Fees
= new Faction total 21 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/4708/BnjMYc.jpg)



Tripoliís Militarists: 11 starting cash; +0 senator cash; +3 +1 senator income; +3 knights income; +2 Tax Farming
= new Faction total 20 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2549/obXPTZ.jpg)



The Frogís Plutocrats: 2 starting cash; +4 +4 senator cash; +5 (faction bonus) +2 senator income; +3 knights income +3 knight faction bonus; +0 Concessions
= new Faction total 23 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3607/0ElM1j.jpg)



AzTankís Conservatives: 8 starting cash; +4 +4 +4 senator cash; +3 +3 senator income; +2 knights income; +1 (random 1d6) PontMax income; +0 Concessions
= new Faction total 29 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/6607/3Ehygo.jpg)



Malizeís Populists: 6 starting cash; +0 senator cash; +3 +1 senator income; +2 knights income; +3 Mining Concession
= new Faction total 15 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/5272/ZzTexG.jpg)



Eraxís Progressives: 1 starting cash; +1 +2 senator cash; +3 +1 senator income; +1 knight income; +2 +2 Tax Farming Concessions
= new Faction total 13 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9602/nbEmo8.jpg)


(If you see little blue bags next to your Total Influence counters now? -- those are the Major/Minor marker source bags. The minor suspicion chit actually says "corrupto"; major is spelled "mayor" per Latin.)

Anyone can send in their Revenue Choices in any order -- they still come down (this Turn) to distribution among your senators, and announcing donations from senators to the Republic's Treasury.

However, if you're sure about how you will use your cash during your round of the upcoming Forum Phase (which will start with I.I. since he's the most influential Consular Tribune right now), you can go ahead and tell me now and I'll resolve it when the time comes. If you tell me "and nothing else", I'll move along to the next Player around the table in the Forum Phase without checking to see if you want to act on any new opportunities that might have come up -- but I'll be fair and still allow some lag for asynch, so long as you don't try to pre-empt someone else's choice to take advantage of the same opportunity.

...and with that, I'm done for the night! See y'all tomorrow! phew.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 25, 2018, 06:57:40 PM
19 to Cornelius, who donates 10 for influence.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 25, 2018, 09:55:19 PM
13 to Brutus
2 to Aurelius

Brutus will Sponsor games to honor the great victory
Aurelius will try for a knight

Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 26, 2018, 03:23:24 AM
Flaminius 10, Plautius 2, Faction Treasury 1. No donations. Plautius will spend 1 on a knight roll in the Forum Phase.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 26, 2018, 07:26:29 AM
3 talents to each of my 4 guys, total 12. Fabius will spend 2 to try for a knight.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 09:29:51 AM
I'll process them after work asap.

Keep in mind that Tripoli won't be where he can access the internet much over the weekend, so while he'll try to check in and make choices for his Faction, we could run into some delay until sometime after Sunday.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 11:12:13 AM
Tripoli sends a message: "Julius will buy  a knight for 5.  Remainder in Faction treasury."

That leaves the Frog, I think.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 26, 2018, 04:59:57 PM
6 to each senator, remainder in faction cash. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 26, 2018, 05:02:15 PM
Fulvius will buy a knight. 
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 05:52:58 PM
All righty then, everyone has their choices reported (more or less, with some possible leeway for later in the Forum phase perhaps), and it's time to run the clock!

I.I. gives 19 to Cornelius, keeping 2. Cornelius immediately donates 10 to the Republic (up to 66 Talents) for 1 influence (up to 11, total up to 30). No stated plans yet for the Forum Phase.

Tripoli gives 5 to Julius, to buy a knight later, keeping 15.

The Frog gives 6 to each senator, keeping 5. Fulvius plans to buy a knight later.

AzTank gives 3 to each senator, keeping 17. Fabius will spend 2 of his 3 later, trying to persuade a knight.

Malize gives 13 to Brutus (who will spend all of his on level 2 games later) and 2 to Aurelius (who will gamble his on a knight later), keeping nothing.

Erax gives Flaminius 10, Plautius 2, and keeps 1. Plaut will gamble 1 of his 2 on a knight later.

This ends the second Revenue Phase segment.

Third segment, Republic income: 66 starting cash; +40 (new!) standard income; +25 (yet another!) Allied Enthusiasm event resolves; (7 Legions x 2 Talents) -14 unit upkeep; -10 Active Aequian War; -0 Land Bills = new total 107 Talentons of silver!  <:-) :bd:

For context, it should be kept in mind that 100 Talents of this silver comes purely from random Allied Enthusiasm. ;) But without them you'd still be 7 Talents in the black, though possibly needing an ongoing high Consulship of Plutocrats to stay solvent.

Allied Enthusiasm Event resolves out. The Twelve Tables historical Event discards. The Spolia Opima historical Event remains untriggered. This ends the Revenue Phase for Turn Five.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 05:56:03 PM
TURN FIVE -- FORUM PHASE
------------------------

I.I. has the current HRAO, so starts the Forum Phase clockwise around the board. Rolls for Scenario/Event...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 3, 1, total 4[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 06:08:43 PM
Not a 7, so that's a Scenario card -- the last from the Latin Deck. (Though the Italian Era hasn't strictly started yet.)

As it happens, it's a Faction card, which I've given face-down to I.I. -- currently this is the only card in your hand. I've sent you a p-mail about it already.

You didn't specify whether you want Corny to try for a knight, and whether he'll automatically persuade one with 5 Talents if so.

Cornelius can also sponsor Games, up to level 3 for 18 Talents, though currently the only benefit would be additional Popularity (unrest is 0). Paying for this might preclude other options of course.

Lastly, you may freely change Faction Leadership at this time, as always.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 26, 2018, 06:27:28 PM
Sure, I'll drop 5 on a knight.
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 06:47:39 PM
Cornelius spends 5 of his 9 Talents to pick up his 2nd minion; normal vote tally up to 11. Presumably this ends the Aristocrats' round.

Next up, Tripoli's Militarists roll for the first Scenario or random Event from the Italian deck...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 3, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Latin Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 07:09:24 PM
Not a 7, so the first Scenario card from the deck! (All the yellow-bordered cards are now either played, discarded, or dealt out.)

It's a red-text Faction card however, so I've sent it to Tripoli's mat face down, and I've sent a p-mail to him explaining it. I'm excited to see its arrival, but who knows when it will be played?!  :D

Per his instructions, Julius spends his 5 Talents automatically adding a 2nd knight as his minion, increasing his Mil score to 6 (per Militarist special abilities) and the vote tally to 9.


The Frog's Plutocrats roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 1, 4, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 07:25:28 PM
Not a 7, so it's another Scenario card, namely:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9495/92L5cP.jpg)

The Ultra-general of his generation arrives, the King of Molossus and later of Epirus, a second cousin of Alexander the Great and one of the aspirant Successors (sort of), PYRRHUS!  <:-) :hide:

Since he has no current War, he goes to the Curia in the Forum to await his fate.


Note the orange border: this triggers the actual start of the ITALIAN ERA! ...wow that color scheme doesn't look so good on the forum's blue background.  L:-)

Please refer back here for an introduction to rule changes triggering in this new Era: http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22942.msg634176#msg634176

The upshot is, not many really. ;) Or not yet. The main practical difference is that most Senatorial Offices (not PontMax) gain +2 Influence awarded for election.

Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 07:29:40 PM
Meanwhile, per the Frog's prior instructions, Fulvius sacrifices 5 of his Talents to buy a 2nd minion. Plutocrat vote tally goes up to 13. This ends his round.


AzTank's Conservatives roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 1, 3, total 4[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 07:40:17 PM
Not 7, so yet another Scenario, namely the Circus Maximus historical Event!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/7002/Lzw7wL.jpg)

Rome's first Circus Maximus was built very early in the Republic's history, and was only a wooden structure at first.

Like the Spolia Opima there next to it, this Event hangs out in the Forum until triggered. Unlike the Spolia, any senator can pay to discard it at any time, thus gaining its benefits. Also unlike the Spolia, this Event costs the Republic a little construction-upkeep cash every Turn until some senator pays to finish building it!

(Also like the Spolia, the Birth of the Republic rules mention the CircMax event -- as part of the Italian not the Latin Era -- but I never found any information, including online, about what the Event in the game involves. So I made a reasonable guess based on its history, and created the card myself.  O:-) )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 07:43:43 PM
Per his prior instructions, AzTank's Fabius spends 2 of his Talents to roll for a knight. He'll thus succeed on a 4 or better:

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 6, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 07:48:01 PM
Wins with a natural 6! Fabius gets his first minion, and the Aristocrat normal vote tally goes up to 14. As far as I know, this ends AzTank's round.


Malize's Populists roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 5, 5, total 10[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 08:08:37 PM
A hard 10! -- man, a craps table laying side odds on this roll streak would be raking in cash!

That's a Scenario, which turns out to be a Faction card sent face-down to Malize's hand along with his other one (making two of them). I've sent him a pmail about it already.

In the process, Malize p-mailed me to make sure he could change his original plan, and get first dibs on buying the Circus Maximus, which yes he can! I'll process that next.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 26, 2018, 08:20:00 PM
Malize, you should wait until the population phase so we have some Unrest to reduce, I promise not to spend the 10 gold on Flaminius on the Circus Maximus until you've had your opportunity.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 08:26:21 PM
...I'll hold off processing a little while until Players have had opportunities to try convincing Malize not to buy it yet.

He's snagged the first right to buy it, however, unless he verbally and publicly agrees to relinquish it.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 26, 2018, 08:30:02 PM
I think I'm the only other player who could buy it this turn so he's safe.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 26, 2018, 08:37:14 PM
I was about to comment, but I don't want to say anything that would give preferential advice to one player per se.

Any inference any player draws from that statement, is that player's responsibility, and I do not guarantee its correctness.  ^-^ (Unless someone asks me about matters of fact, of course.)

With that, I'm hitting the sack tonight, and will check in tomorrow morning. Busy evening umping tonight! -- glad to be moving the game along so well.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 27, 2018, 05:04:52 AM
I agree, it would be best to wait until we have some unrest efore buying the Circus card.   Dropping unrest by 5 could come in handy
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 09:03:26 AM
Still no resolution from Malize yet, so I'm not advancing the clock, just in case.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 27, 2018, 09:39:10 AM
I'd be willing to commit to a binding agreement to refrain from funding the Circus until Malize does so at a time of greater need for the Republic.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 27, 2018, 10:32:31 AM
Still no resolution from Malize yet, so I'm not advancing the clock, just in case.  O:-)

Seems to me there's no need for you to wait. 

Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 11:00:53 AM
With that confirmation, Malize changes his original plan, and has Brutus spend 10 of his 13 Talents buying the Circus Maximus!

Brutus gains 5 Inf (up to 12) and 5 Pop (up to 6). Aurelius, the only other Populist senator right now, gains the extra 1 Pop (up to 1) from the Factionís special abilities. The Populist ability to get extra votes from Pop points, also means the Populist Vote Tally (on any topic, pro or con), just went up to 15!

Of course, he can't get extra funds this way, as he would from knights and their extra votes; and Popularity can be lost rather more easily than losing knights. Also, every senator has an absolute maximum Popularity of 9, so there are limits (unlike with knights!) to how far this ability can go. Popularity usually (but not always, as with here) costs more per point gained than for knights, too.


Last around the table for the Forum Phase this turn, are Erax's Progressives, who roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 2, 6, total 8[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 11:20:19 AM
Close to a 7, but not exactly, so that's a final Scenario card for this Turn. He draws a red-text Faction card to his hand, and I've p-mailed him about it already.

Erax originally planned for Flaminius to spend 5 of his Talents on an automatic knight gain, and I don't think the situation has changed where he would spend it on something else. He'd only have a senator Persuasion total of +15, so his chances of picking up a senator from someone else's Faction would still be remote to impossible -- and even for remote, his chances would be proportionately high that he'd only be giving that cash to that senator (and thus, in effect, to that Player for usage and redistribution later).

Thus, Flam gains a 2nd minion, and the Faction normal vote tally goes up to 5.

It is possible that Erax may want to play some number of his Faction cards (at least one being valid) this round, but based on what that card or those cards might be, I can and will allow a reasonable lag time for application if he does.

Moving along then, this ends the Forum Phase (aside from possible Erax lag), and on into the Population Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 11:48:47 AM
TURN FIVE -- POPULATION PHASE
-----------------------------

Putting Rome in order, preparing for the Senate!

Starting this Turn, and for the rest of the game, all senators with major offices get a Major suspicion marker. This Turn, thatís
Tribunal Consul Valerius of the Aristocrats (currently also the HRAO, who will open the Senate as Presiding Magistrate); Tribunal Consul Acilius of the Plutocrats; and Tribunal Consul Papirius, and Pontifex Maximus Fabius, of the Conservatives. (This sort of represents the suspicion of the Tribunal Council plotting to make themselves Consuls for Life historically, and being deposed, thus creating the subsequent office of the Censor; but more on this soon.)

Thereís an Enemy Leader waiting in the Curia, to roll for. He dies without his War on a roll of 5 or better...

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 5, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 11:58:04 AM
The Republic has been amazingly fortunate in this game: thatís two Leaders removed without facing them in their Wars!

The Aequian War went Unprosecuted last turn...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/7185/WMov7q.jpg)

...so Public Unrest has gone up +1 to 1.

Consular Tribune Valerius of the Aristocrats opens the Senate this Turn with his State of the Republic speech...

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 3, 6, 2, total 11[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 12:07:17 PM
Speech total 11, - 1 Unrest, +2 Valerius' Oratory skill = 12, No Change.

TURN FIVE -- SENATE PHASE
---------------------------------

Here are the Player mats for ease of reference, clockwise from Player One:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1043/H1s4wC.jpg)



(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8982/14mFS9.jpg)



(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4909/1CRQvg.jpg)



(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9268/OIOdg9.jpg)



(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8550/iUmrHM.jpg)



(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9326/8aHE8v.jpg)


The Republic has seven Active Legions (1st thru 7th inclusive), and another three (8th thru 10th) potentially in the Force Pool.

You have 107 Talents in the Treasury. Expected income next Turn is 40 Talents; expected expenses are -14 unit upkeep, and -10 if the War continues. Net expected income thus 40 - 24 = +16.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 12:48:29 PM
As usual, Pontifex Maximus Fabius of the Conservative Faction, can appoint or reassign a priesthood to any one senator, at will, any time during the Senate.

The Mandatory Business this Senate will be for I.I.'s Valerius to successfully Propose two new Consuls (as usual except for last Turn), who will settle Roman and Field Consul duties between them.

Then the new Roman Consul must successfully Propose a new office, and henceforth for each Senate Phase in the game: the Censor.

Censors can be any senator Aligned with a Faction, in Rome -- which is every senator currently -- who has previously held any Consul office even once. (This is the whole point to the little green "Prior Consul" markers.) He cannot currently hold Consular or Dictatorial office. (Dictator functionality, as well as Master of Horse, only unlocks if too many Wars are Active at once, so I'm mostly ignoring those offices until such time as it's relevant.)

The Censor will be the next highest Senatorial office after the Consuls. He cannot go to War, so (unless he is assassinated!) he will always be HRAO if both Consuls leave Rome. Consequently, he also cannot be appointed as a Governor (once the Republic starts gaining Provinces outside Italy). A new Censor must be elected each Turn after Consular elections; but (as far as I can tell) the current Censor can be elected Censor again, as long as he's still valid.

Once a Censor is elected, the Presiding Magistrate post will shift to him temporarily, so that he may conduct Prosecutions.

Historically, Censors were responsible for (among other things) checking to make sure that Senators didn't have outstanding criminal or character problems. In game terms, this means the Player controlling the Censor can, at his choice, launch either one Major Prosecution, or up to 2 Minor Prosecutions. He cannot launch a Prosecution against himself (unless he is the Faction Leader of an assassination attempt!), but he can Prosecute senators from his own Faction!

This involves a lot of new rules which I won't get into until and unless the Censor announces a Prosecution. For now what's important is that typically Minor Convictions result in the Accused losing 5 Popularity, 5 Influence, and any Concessions (which go to the Forum for possible reassignment by vote as Other Business). Major suspicions can be treated as Minor Prosecutions. In a Major Conviction, the Accused dies! There are also results for the Accused being Freed; and the Censor as well as his chosen Prosecutor (who cannot be himself but who acts as what used to be called in Western jurisprudence the Judge Advocate), and the Accused's chosen Advocate (whether himself or some other senator), may also gain or lose stats depending on the outcome.

It is not possible for the Censor to undertake more than one Prosecution per Turn -- except Special Major Prosecutions for the Faction Leader of any caught assassins! -- and then only two Minor Prosecutions. So while it can add some extra action to any Senate Phase, it won't be a massive amount. There are several choices involved along the way, but the mechanics are worked out with stats and dice rolls.

Once the Censor declares no, or no more, Prosecutions; or runs out of Prosecution attempts; or his Influence goes to zero; or he dies (from assassination!), then the Prosecution segment is over and the Presiding Magistrate post goes back to the HRAO (usually the Roman Consul).

Prosecutions are not Proposals, which can make a difference for some voting purposes (like the Conservatives' activist knights: their vote only counts x2 when against Proposals, not 'for' Proposals, nor during Prosecutions either way.)

The Censor office changes the game in some ways both large and subtle, so I recommend Players check the Living Rules, and also my "Sabrerules" compilation flowsheet (which need a bit of updating but not about the Censor yet).
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 12:54:36 PM
So! -- with that introduction to the Censorial office, we now await I.I. making a Proposal for two new Consuls.  O:-) Or possibly just floating an idea for them without calling for an official Proposal yet.

(Presiding Magistrates SHOULD BE CLEAR about this, so as to avoid unnecessary delay. If you mean to have a vote on your Proposal, clarify that you are making a Proposal; and if you mean for the voting to start immediately without further discussion, either declare a voting order or declare that Factions can vote at will.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on October 27, 2018, 01:09:03 PM
Valerius nominates Fulvius to preside over the Senate and Cincinnatus to end the insolence of the Aequi.

Edit: Free voting order.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 01:25:00 PM
Note that Fulvius is in the Plutocrat Faction, and Cinc (as before) is with the Aristocrats. See the snapshots for relevant details. Cinc has immunity to D/S results from the Aequian War.

The Proposal is not exactly for the Consular relationship, which would have to be worked out between the victors afterward; but I.I. is announcing his intentions for afterward.

Since a vote has been called, the Aristocrats start it off with 11 votes for the Proposal. (Aristocrats currently lack the Influence to x2 their knights.) Potentially 61 votes remain against it (including some activist x2 votes.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on October 27, 2018, 02:53:51 PM
The Progressives vote in favor, we want Cincinnatus to defeat the Aequi before we run into more wars.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 27, 2018, 03:05:13 PM
I will vote for
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 04:52:45 PM
That adds 13 and 5, and subtracts 13 and 7 potential votes against.

Current totals 29 for, none against, potentially 41 against.

Edited to add: basically if Malize or AzTank vote for, that'll be the win.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 27, 2018, 08:11:36 PM
Conservatives vote "for"
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 27, 2018, 09:51:56 PM
That's enough for the majority. Fulv and Cinc will be Consuls next, Roman and Field respectively (since that was I.I.'s intention, and I know the Frog was fine with Fulv being Roman Consul.)

I'll catch up tomorrow morning with the stats and adjustments. Meanwhile, Fulvius becomes the Presiding Magistrate and so, for the next Mandatory Business, must consider and Propose the new senatorial office of Censor.

The valid senator list (in Rome, previously a Consul, not currently holding office greater than PontMax) is (clockwise from Player One):

Cornelius and Valerius of the Aristocrats;

Acilius and Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats;

Papirius, Furius Camillus, and the PontMax Fabius of the Conservatives.

A quick overview of the Censor office can be found back upthread a little, here: http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22942.msg634334#msg634334
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 28, 2018, 09:01:58 AM
Catching up this morning: the time of the Tribunal has passed! -- although, the plebs rather liked the reformatory agents which made the law public and simpler to understand (at least as a basis) so that senators couldn't hide behind and exploit the law. From the standpoint of the common people, the main problem was that the Tribunal was still a Council of senators...

Anyway, the Consuls have returned to their normal operation. Cincinnatus becomes Field Consul once again, in preparation for what might be his final campaign, against the Aequians, and in this new Era before the Republic his Influence increases by 4 instead of 3 points, up to 14. (I was mis-remembering what the increase would be in the Italian Era, it's a 1 point increase -- I double checked the rules.) This brings the Aristocratic Faction to 34 total Influence: once again becoming the most Influential Faction and so allowing their (currently 4) knights to each vote twice, once for themselves and once bringing a friend among the 'invisible' senators, on any topic pro or con. For the next vote, at least, I.I. will bring 15 votes instead of 11.

And Fulvius of the Plutocrats also gains 4 Influence as the Roman Consul, up to 10, and bringing the Faction's total influence to 24.


Fulvius (I've already alerted the Frog) must now Propose a senator to become the Republic's first Censor.


Edited to add: I'll be gone for most of the day on combined Mom and Niece birthday celebrations, so I'll check back in tonight.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 28, 2018, 09:21:26 AM
Edited to add: I'll be gone for most of the day on combined Mom and Niece birthday celebrations, so I'll check back in tonight.

sounds fun, have a great time!!!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 28, 2018, 08:18:44 PM
I'm back!

...I sense a distinct lack of the Frog proposing a Censor, though.  :P {checking chat notes} Okay, he was tied up most of the day, too, and wanted to research Censors.

Eyes are too blurry, off to go sleep. Will check in occasionally tomorrow. Censors are a hugely important game change, not least because they can be used to outright kill other senators, so it's a good idea to study them.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on October 28, 2018, 08:34:04 PM
Iím heading back from moms 80th birthday party I should be in better communication by tuesday
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on October 29, 2018, 06:58:48 PM
Sorry for the delay.  I will propose Apius Claudius for Censor. 

I can't quickly find a list of all the parties, and some of the photos don't have party names, so I will allow voting in any order. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 29, 2018, 07:35:40 PM
Clockwise from the upper left with Player One:

Aristocrats (purple)
Militarists (red)
Plutocrats (green)
Conservatives (brown)
Populists (orange, go Volunteers!  :D )
Progressives (blue)

Each photo does show the Party (or Faction) name; but in the 'left' (Progressive) and 'right' (Plutocrat / Conservative) photos I have to zoom in at an odd angle to get good details on the cards, so the names can be seen on their ability notecards, not on the big colorful cards (with the Players' names, too).

(...I totally did not plan the Progressives being on the 'left' and the Conservatives being on the 'right' of the board, in case anyone was wondering. ;) )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 29, 2018, 07:39:03 PM
Appius Claudius, for anyone who might not remember, is a Plutocrat Statesman (and currently the only one, the other two being normal family Senators).

Here's the Plutocrat mat again for reference. The Offices have not been updated yet (nor the personal and total influences), so Val isn't Roman Consul yet, and Acilius is still one of the Tribunal Consuls.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4909/1CRQvg.jpg)

Notice where the Faction name is shown!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on October 29, 2018, 10:05:59 PM
Conservatives vote "for"
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 30, 2018, 07:12:30 AM
All right, let's keep tally of where the vote is:

Plutocrats 9 + 4 knights; plus Conservatives 11 + 3 knights = 27 votes pro.

Tripoli posted in by p-mail, since he was going to be afk (and didn't realize the Frog had specifically called no voting order, so was setting up his vote for when it got around to him).

The Militarists vote con!

Net votes so far are 27 - 9 = 18 votes for. There are potentially 37 against remaining, so the vote is still very much in the air.

However, in effect if Aristocrats or Populists vote 'for', then that will swing the vote solidly into a majority. (If my math is correct. ;) )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on October 30, 2018, 04:07:07 PM
Populists vote for.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 30, 2018, 07:23:07 PM
Net +18, + 15 = net 33 votes for, leaving only 22 votes potentially remaining against, and that's the majority.

Plutocrat Statesman Appius Claudius becomes the Republic's first Censor!  <:-) Personal influence goes up +4 from 9 to 13; Faction Influence up to 28.


Appius Claudius now temporarily becomes the Presiding Magistrate -- so the Frog now must choose whether to launch trials against anyone. Appius can bring EITHER one Major OR up to two Minor suspicions to trial. Or investigate no one. (Note that Major suspicions can also be investigated as Minors instead.)

Current targets include everyone who had a major office when the Senate started, and/or with Concessions that have paid off since the end of the prior Senate. Thus:

Valerius of the Aristocrats -- Major and one Minor suspicion.
Cornelius of the Aristocrats -- one Minor suspicion.

Julius of the Militarists -- one Minor suspicion.

Acilius of the Plutocrats -- Major suspicion.

Pontifex Maxiums Fabius of the Conservatives -- Major suspicion.
Papirius of the Conservatives -- Major suspicion.

Aurelius of the Populists -- one Minor suspicion.

Plautius of the Progressives -- two Minor suspicions. (He has two Concessions that triggered.)


Once the Prosecution segment ends (one way or another), all suspicions are removed. They don't stack if unprosecuted.

Be aware that Major Prosecutions are a life-threatening event, and can backfire badly on the Censor and/or his Prosecutor.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on October 30, 2018, 07:31:34 PM
Once Prosecution has been finished (one way or another), the Presidency will revert back to Fulvius, i.e. the Frog again.

At that point, the Mandatory Business for this Turn will be done.

Useful Other Business will include possibly raising more Legions; possibly disbanding some Legions; and possibly Deploying some Legions with the Field Consul Cincinnatus to go fight the Aequians. (Cinc has to be deployed first, or together with Fulv, and deploying Fulvius at all would be counter-productive in this case.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 01, 2018, 07:22:59 PM
A million apologies for the delay.  Work blew up, but the storm is passed now. And I will be more timely. 

I will not prosecute. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 01, 2018, 08:02:19 PM
The Presiding Magistrate post goes back to Fulvius, which means back to the Frog again.

Now it's time to work up proposals for possibly raising more Legions (or maybe waiting a little while); and/or possibly sending out Cinc to squish the Aequians.


Also, btw, I was gone for 10 hours today myself, so I couldn't check in either.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 02, 2018, 03:02:52 PM
Okay, so we have only one war pending.  I have not really sorted out how to evaluate our chances in that war, but Cincinatus is going to go fight it, I assume since he is the other Consul. 

Without calculating odds of success I am thinking to raise one legion, but would like to hear if anyone has a different suggestion.  (What are our odds if we raise no legions? Is that even an option?) 



Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 02, 2018, 03:27:15 PM
Found the war rules: 

"1.) Wars don't ever attack Rome directly, including this one (well, not in this game anyway). But they'll cost money each turn they stay active, and if you let them sit around too long they may 'team up' with other Wars of the same 'family' and become that much harder to stop.

2.) This war has a strength equal to 2 Legions (that's the 2 in the lower right corner), plus one more Legion's strength thanks to Tarqy (that's the +1 on his card).

3.) When the time comes to fight the War -- all fighting happens automatically as I roll and do calcs -- you'll be totaling a 3d6 roll, to which you'll subtract the enemy strength and add your Force's strength. You want the total to be 14 or better. If it's 18 or more, then you win with no losses, which is the ideal result.

4.) Every war has a basic strength which it will always have for as long as it's active. Later in the game, some Wars can pick up auxiliary strength which can be whittled away. And sometimes you can manage to randomly kill the Enemy Leader which will permanently remove the bonus strength to his War(s), even if his War continues on.

What this means is that almost always any losses suffered will be the Republic's.

5.) There are five possible results to the combat roll:

5.1.) Defeat, on a total of <=7. In this case any of your surviving Legions will return to the Active Pool, and any surviving senators at the War will return to Rome (specifically to the mats for each Player). However the senator commanding the attack will die. Unrest immediately jumps +2. Depending on the level of Defeat, you may lose x number of units in your Force.

5.2.) Disaster, on a total of the specific black square number for the card, replaced by the black square number on the leader's card. Tarqy scores a disaster if you total a 7. You lose 50% of your Force rounded up, and Unrest jumps +1. But your army (if anything is left) stays in the field.

5.3.) Standoff, on a total of the specific gray square number on the card, replaced by the grey square of the leader. Tarqy scores a Standoff on a total of 14 (which would normally be a victory for you!) You lose 25% of your Force rounded up, but no Unrest, and your army (if anything is left) stays in the field.

5.4.) Stalemate on a total from 8 to 13. Your army stays in the field, and loses x number of units depending on the exact result.

5.5.) Victory on a total of 14 or higher (unless the War or its Leader supersedes that with a Standoff result!) The War discards, and the Leader goes to the Curia, while your surviving Legions and their commanders go home (though they won't arrive home until the Forum Phase next turn). There are some other possible results depending on circumstances (getting to loot spoils, and maybe the Leader permanently discards), and you could still lose x-number of units depending on the exact roll."
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 02, 2018, 03:33:02 PM
Found an odds table as well.

http://home.earthlink.net/~gamecorner/ror/tdrchart.html



Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 02, 2018, 03:58:28 PM
Okay, well, you've got 7 Legions already Active. There are potentially 3 more Legions which could be raised from the Force Pool. If you raise one more, you'll have 8 active Legions.

The Republic currently has 107 Talents in its Treasury, and a 40 Talent basic income. So you've got far more than enough cash to safely raise the remaining 3 Legions from the Force Pool -- but you might not need to yet.

Cinc has a Mil skill of 5, so if he brings 7 Legions to stomp the Aequians, he's going to have a 7+5=12-2= 10 point adjustment to the combat dice roll.

I haven't had to show the combat results table in a while, so here it is again for convenience:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9536/RH5RMB.jpg)

If Cinc brings the current 7 legions, then any roll total from 8 upward will be an absolute victory with no losses to Rome. All other possible results will also be victories, with increasingly unlikely chances of hard losses but nothing more than 4; except for a freakishly minimum chance of a Stalemate with no losses. Cinc voids any Disaster or Standoff roll for this War, so those won't be a worry.

Basically he's going to win, and mostly likely with no losses, even if you don't raise more Legions this turn.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 02, 2018, 04:43:07 PM
Isn't there a chance that we will get an event that will make it difficult to raise more legions?  If so, should be raise extra legions now (the upkeep is only 2talents/turn), rather than risk either losses or the possibility that we couldn't raise additional legions next turn?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 02, 2018, 05:25:33 PM
Oh.  Then, I think we don't need any given that the mighty Cincinatus is going to handle the war.  I will give people time to respond, and will call a vote late afternoon tomorrow California time.  The vote will have no order.  I don't think I will have easy access to this web site tomorrow, so would be inclined to call the vote by informing Jason on Google Hangouts, if that's acceptable. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 02, 2018, 05:58:53 PM
Yes, it's possible to roll a random Manpower Shortage, which adds cost to forming new Legions for a Turn. There's an 11.57% chance of that (due to rolling a total of 12 on a 3d6) multiplied by the chance of rolling a 2d6=7 (which leads to a 3d6 roll for a Random Event) which is 16.67%. Thus you have a 16.67% chance of an 11.57% chance of rolling a Manpower Shortage.

So .1157 * .1667 = 1.929% chance of rolling a Manpower Shortage on each Player's Forum round.

Take the absolute value of 1-minus-that, and you have a 98.7013% of not rolling it on any given Player round. However, the chance of not rolling it on any given turn is that probability times itself 6 times (for 6 players), or that probability to the power of 6.

That comes out to a 92.456(ish ;) ) percent chance of no Manpower shortage on any given Turn. (Or not from that source; you can roll an MS result from bad Popularity, too.)

Note that once you leave the Italian Era, the random event table changes (and for each of the Provincial Eras). I'd have to check whether the chances are better or worse, but that won't happen for a while.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 02, 2018, 06:05:29 PM
So, what are the opportunity costs if bad luck triggers a 7.54% chance of rolling a Manpower Shortage event next Turn?

Legions would, for one Turn, cost 20 Talents to raise instead of 10.

Each additional ManpowShort... let's call that a Gus, for short.  8) Each additional Gus adds another 10 Talents to the cost, but you can see that the odds of rolling more than one Gus each Turn are increasingly small. (Not that the odds themselves change, but it's even-less-likely that you'll roll 2; and even-more-less-likely that you'll roll 3 Gusses; etc.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 03, 2018, 07:36:06 AM
There is also the fact that going in with more power subjects us to fewer losses. Let's say we raise no legions and our final modified combat result is 16, we're down 2 legions. Now if we had raised one legion, the result (assuming the same roll) would have been 17, eliminating the legion we raised and leaving us even instead of down by two legions which we'd have to raise again eventually.

I'm in favor of raising at least one legion to eliminate any chance of defeat.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 03, 2018, 08:38:00 AM
Even with no more legions, there's no chance of defeat per se. At worst there's a 1:216 chance of a stalemate (with no losses).

With one more legion, there's no chance of anything but victory, and very little chance of significant losses.

With all three potential Legions raised (which y'all can easily afford right now), there's only a 0.46% chance you win with only two Legions lost, and only a 1.39% chance you lose only one Legion. Everything else is a (98.15% chance of a) no-loss victory.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 03, 2018, 08:39:49 AM
AzTank is away from the computer currently, but posted in phone chat that the Conservatives would vote for 1 more Legion being raised.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 03, 2018, 08:51:50 AM
The Aristocrats will support the raising of any number of legions.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 03, 2018, 09:34:34 AM
I'll support one more legion, and am open to two more legions.  I agree that 3 legions is probably overkill
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 03, 2018, 09:56:41 AM
If I receive word from the Frog that he wants to Propose raising 1 Legion (or if he manages to log in wherever he's at and Propose it here), then I see no reason to hold a formal vote on it as there's a clear super-majority in favor of (at least) 1 more.  O0
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 03, 2018, 09:58:31 AM
Provisionally speaking, everyone seems to be okay with sending Cinc out with all available Active Legions this Turn (however many that turns out to be), right? There seems to be a super-majority in favor of this as well -- if so, no reason to hold a formal vote on that either.


Edited to add: basically if the Frog checks in with a Proposal for Raising 1 Legion, and with a Proposal to send out Cinc with all Active Legions, I would consider the informal agreements to reflect a provisional vote on both Proposals, and (since as far as I can tell no more useful Proposals would remain for the Senate this Turn) I'd move along processing the situation through to the Revolutionary Phase, whereupon I'd alert any Players if there are valid Concessions and/or Statesmen to play to your mats.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 03, 2018, 08:59:10 PM
The Frog sent a phone-chat message with instructions: first, Propose raising two Legions.

I'm not entirely sure this counts as an automatic vote win, so I'll count a vote for him. According to his prior instructions, no voting order.

Plutocrats start with 13 votes for Raising 2 Legions; then the Aristocrats since I.I. previously stated he's fine with any number +11 normal vote + 4 more activist knights; the the Militarists since Tripoli said he'd prefer 1 but would vote for two +9 votes. Erax let me know earlier, in case he was afk, that he's in favor of any number of Legions, so that adds 5. Total for = 42

Potentially against are the Populists -15 and the Conservatives -14 -3 more activist votes = -32. Not enough to win, and they might not even vote against it anyway; also there's no advantage to them voting a losing Proposal in this case.

This wins the Proposal, and I happen to know from chat messages (in case not around for a vote) that there are enough votes already to send Cinc out with all Active Legions. So that also passes.

I'll process things tomorrow morning, before I leave for the afternoon, since I'm a bit wiped out tonight -- but I should be able to catch up through the start of the Revolution Phase before I go!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 03, 2018, 09:52:24 PM
It all seems fine and in order, the people would like to see our foolish enemies brought to heel.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 04, 2018, 08:41:01 AM
Okay, let's process this thing!

The Senate Raises the 8th and 9th Legions from the Force Pool to the Active Pool. Republic Treasury down 20 Talents to 87.

Cinc takes all 9 Active Legions off to Prosecute the Aequian War, which moves back to Active from Unprosecuted. The Aristocrats' total Influence and Normal Votes go down by 14 and 3 respectively.

With no other useful Proposals to make, this ends the Senate Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 04, 2018, 08:47:30 AM
TURN FIVE -- COMBAT PHASE
---------------------------------

This is gonna be a slaughter.  :bd:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/1527/6AMCWr.jpg)

Quinctius Cincinnatus leads the 1st through 9th Legions, in what is likely to be his final War, against the Aequian border harassment.

Legions = 9
Cinc's Mil = +5
Aequian Land Strength = -2
Resulting Dice Roll Modifier = +12

Rolling 3d6

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 2, 2, 1, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 04, 2018, 09:23:03 AM
 :o OUCH! -- the proud Apennines punched back about as hard as they could! That would normally have been a Defeat with 3 Legions lost!

5+12=17 which is a Victory with 1 Legion lost. The dice say the 9th Legion goes back to the Force Pool.

Unrest -1 to 0. The Republic adds 5 Talents of Spoils to its Treasury, up to 94. The territory gained unlocks the final two (5th and 6th) Tax Farming Concessions. The War discards. No Enemy Leader, so no Spolia Opima. The 1st through 8th Legions go back to the Active Pool.

Cincinnatus gains half the land strength, 2/2, = 1 Influence and 1 Popularity, up to 15 and 2. He only lost 1 Legion, so no Pop reduction. One mortality is chit is drawn for the destroyed Legion, and a son of the Fabians (of the Aristocrats) dies serving in the Army, but Cinc survives. Cinc returns to Rome, bumping the Aristocrats total stats back up to 35 Inf and 11 Normal Votes.

This ends the Combat Phase for Turn Five.

I think I'm going to add a house rule for flavor, since it makes a lot of sense, that starting next Turn (not this Turn for balance sake, since I don't have enough records to show back-results from prior Wars), if a Mortality Chit comes up in a War for an active senator (not a family Senator waiting in the Curia to respawn though), that Statesman or family Senator gains 1 Popularity for popular sympathy and support in gratitude that the senator's family has sacrificed, win or lose, to help defend and advance Rome.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 04, 2018, 09:41:13 AM
TURN FIVE -- REVOLT PHASE
---------------------------------

(I forgot to mention that everyone lost any Suspicion markers at the end of the Prosecution segment of the Senate Phase, when the Censor declared he didn't suspect anyone of corruption.)

No one can revolt against the Senate yet (not Early Provincial Era).

Faction cards can be traded or donated around with automatic receipt during this Phase. No one needs to reduce their hand size to 5 or less, although of course anyone can simply discard as many of your cards as you want (though I donít recommend that).

Iíll pause the game here for assignment of valid Concessions and/or Statesmen, since there is at least one of those in at least one Player's hand! Once the card(s) get(s) played, I'll proceed along to Turn Six (since Mortality and Revenue will be affected).

I've already sent out p-mails to the valid players. If you haven't received a p-mail from me, none of your cards are valid this Turn.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 04, 2018, 10:56:58 AM
Tax Farming 5 on Valerius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 04, 2018, 06:06:09 PM
Tripoli is afk, but sends a chat message that he'll play the final Tax Farming Concession (#6) on Manlius.

I can inform Players that these will be all the Tax Farming Concessions in the game. There are other Concessions, but not for Tax Farming, which assumes local tax incomes from central Italian territories.

(In real life Tax Farming was a big deal much farther away, but the game doesn't feature Tax Farming Concessions in Palestine, for example. The most famous Tax Farmers known all over the world today, were the Apostle Matthew Levi, and Zacchaeus who climbed the fig-sycamore tree to see Jesus. Provincial Governors will have opportunities to skim taxes off their Provinces, at some risk if they're caught of course.  :knuppel2: But that's later in the game.)

I'm a bit pooped out tonight after traveling around, so I'll process the next Phases -- the Mortality and opening Revenue segment of Turn Six -- tomorrow afternoon.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 05, 2018, 06:32:06 AM
While I'm passing by, Erax correctly points out that 107 Talents - 20 + 5 = 92 Talents remaining in the Treasury, not 94. I can't even imagine why some part of my brain insisted I count back up 7 points instead of 5.  #:-)

(He may not be near reliable forum access again until Friday, so he gave me provisional instructions of what to do with his cash during the Revenue and Forum phases upcoming soon.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 05, 2018, 05:17:22 PM
TURN SIX -- MORTALITY PHASE
---------------------------

No Immanent Wars to activate.

Flaminius of the Progressives feels the Kindly Ones brush by him again! -- but theyíre after someone from family #14, not him, whew. They arenít politically important enough yet to be active.

This ends the Mortality Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 05, 2018, 05:49:36 PM
TURN SIX -- REVENUE PHASE
---------------------------------

Segment one, the Faction income accounting.


I.I.ís Aristocrats: 2 starting cash; +4 senator treasury; +3 +2 senator incomes; +4 knight incomes; +3 Harbor Fees; +2 +2 Tax Farming Concessions =
new Faction total 22 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/1690/wdD5J3.jpg)


Tripoliís Militarists: 15 starting cash; +0 senator treasuries; +3 +1 senator incomes; +4 knight incomes; +2 +2 Tax Farming Concessions =
new Faction total 27 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3286/rCTs27.jpg)


The Frogís Plutocrats: 5 starting cash; +6 +1 +6 senator treasuries; +5 (Plutocrat bonus) +2 senator incomes; +4 knights x2 Plutocrat bonus knight incomes; +0 Concessions =
new Faction total 33 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/8176/YuMYLk.jpg)


AzTankís Conservatives: 17 starting cash; +1 +3 +3 +3 senator treasuries; +3 +3 senator incomes; +3 knight incomes; + 1d6=3 PontMax income; +0 Concessions =
new Faction total 39 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1310/vwBJ22.jpg)


Malizeís Populists: 0 starting cash; +3 +2 senator treasuries; +3 +1 senator incomes; +2 knight incomes; +3 Mining Concession =
new Faction total 14 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5199/42OC2y.jpg)


Eraxís Progressives: 1 starting cash; +5 +2 senator treasuries; +3 +1 senator incomes; +2 knight incomes; +2 +2 Tax Farming Concessions =
new Faction total 18 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6913/FFgDdk.jpg)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 05, 2018, 06:03:50 PM
Segment 2, Player distributions.

All Players should now report their distribution choices and whether any of your senators will donate 10 to Rome for a 1 Influence gain. (Some senators may be able to donate 25 for 3 Influence.)

Players should also look ahead to the Forum Phase and make plans accordingly. Remember that one senator can try persuading to add a knight minion, with 5 Talents being automatic win. New family Senators may be expected to start becoming politically active soon, so consider giving decent cash to your senator with the best Ora + Inf total. Unrest doesn't need reducing, but Sponsoring Games will give one of your senators (per Faction) 1, 2, or 3 Popularity for 7, 13, or 18 Talents from personal cash.

According to instructions before he went to spotty internet access for a week, Erax keeps 2, gives 3 to Plautius, and 13 to Flaminius. He does not donate to the Republic.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 05, 2018, 06:05:08 PM
8 to Cincinnatus, 4 each to Cornelius and Valerius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 05, 2018, 06:55:00 PM
15 to Julius, 5 to Manlius, which he uses to buy a knight, and 7 to faction cash
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 05, 2018, 10:29:24 PM
11 cash to each.  Fulvius will spend 10 to gain an influence point.
Appius will spend 5 for a Knight.  Do I keep the knights after he dies?

Appius is oldest.  Any way to know when he wil die?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on November 06, 2018, 07:27:44 AM
2 to each of my guys...for a total of 8
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 06, 2018, 07:58:47 AM
11 cash to each.  Fulvius will spend 10 to gain an influence point.
Appius will spend 5 for a Knight.  Do I keep the knights after he dies?

Appius is oldest.  Any way to know when he wil die?

Senators die randomly from their chit being pulled from the Death Bag during the Mortality Phase; and also from assassination or conviction of a Major Prosecution (ticcing off other players comes with risks!); and if you send him out to War he has increased chances of dying.

Pre-Early statesmen like Appius will also retire at the start of the Early Era, which will happen sometime during the final 6 cards of the Italian Era.

If he simply dies, then no you don't get to keep any of his chits or cards. You also won't keep his family Senator if you've already got him under Appius: the family goes to the Curia to await respawning into the Forum, where the new family Senator might be persuaded to join any Faction. However, if Appius is your Faction Leader, and if his family is politically active already, then the family will immediately act to get a new scion as their patrician so that they can keep Leadership in your faction. You still won't keep any of Ap's pieces, but the family Senator will bounce back from the Curia immediately to your Faction as the new Faction Leader.

If he retires without his family Senator card under him, then you lose him and all his pieces.

If he retires with his family Senator card under him, then in that one case the new family Senator will inherit his pieces and stay in your Faction. This is true in principal for any pre-Early Statesman.

(Conservative Statesmen, however, will always pass down their pieces if they have their family card supporting them: this is one of the Conservative Faction's special abilities. Conservative family Senators who die however will not keep any pieces, even if the card bounces back immediately for being the Faction Leader -- just like any other family Senator. This has happened already a couple of times to some Players, most notably Erax's Flaminius! -- which is a major reason why his Faction is lagging behind so much. The Kindly Ones took too much of a liking to the Flam boys. ;) )

In any case, Statesmen who die or retire are gone permanently from the game. (This is also true if they're discarded from someone's hand!) The only question is what happens to their family card, if their family is active already.


In ApClaud's case, his family, the Claudians, is already active. In fact you started with the Claudians as one of your first families; and then almost immediately discovered (in effect) that this particular Claudian was "Appius Claudius". So, if he retires at the start of the Early Provincial Era (two or three Turns from now), then yes all his pieces will transfer down to the new family Senator under him -- which will be the only time any of your senators will inherit pieces after a senator leaves the game.

If Appius simply dies, however, from any cause, then he discards and all his pieces do, too. He's the Faction Leader right now, so his family Senator will (in effect) bounce back immediately from the Curia, rather than waiting to respawn and be picked up possibly by some other Player -- so you'll get his family Senator back for sure if he dies, but the new Claudius will be totally clean with the vanilla family stats. He only inherits if Appius retires.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 06, 2018, 10:06:16 AM
7 to Aurelius for games in celebration of our recent victoryís.
3 to Brutus for a knight attempt

Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 06, 2018, 11:52:45 AM
I guess this leads to the question of the status of Statesmen!  :D

Clockwise from the Plutocrats, whom I've already discussed, but in summary: if Appius retires at the start of the Early Provincial Era, he'll pass his pieces down to the Claudian under him. If he dies before then, the Claudian under him will bounce back due to being Faction Leader, but all pieces will be lost.

Conservatives: if Furius Camilus leaves the game for any reason (thanks to a Conservative special ability), including Early Era retirement, the Furian Senator under him will inherit his pieces. Spurius Cassius however will retire (if he doesn't die sooner) and leave the game permanently, losing all pieces, because he can't possibly have family #24 be active before then.

Populists: Lucius Junius Brutus will pass his pieces down to his family Senator under him if he retires at the start of the Early Era. If he dies before then, the Junian under him will bounce back from the Curia immediately, due to Brutus being the Faction Leader, but all of Brutus' pieces will be lost.

Progressives: no Statesmen.

Aristocrats: currently Cincinnatus will retire without an heir and lose all his pieces. If the Quinctian family becomes politically active before then (roughly a 50/50 chance under current conditions), and Cinc lives to retire at the start of the Early Era, then he'll pass down his pieces to his family Senator. If someone plays the Early Statesman Qunctius Flaminius to start the Early Era, and the Quinctian family is already active under Cinc, then QuincFlam will inherit on top of the family card for the Aristocrats (he's the only Statesman who can inherit from a pre-Early Statesman). If QuincFlam is played to start the Early Era and the Quinctius family hasn't shown up yet, then whoever played him (Aristocrat or otherwise!) will inherit all of Cinc's pieces!

Militarists: Manlius is a special case, because he turned out to be a unique generic Military Leader Statesman. If he lives to retire at the start of the Early Era, then (the new) Manlius will keep almost all his pieces, but will lose the special ability of his Statesman card -- which means his Mil rating will drop back by 2! If Manlius dies before then, his family card will bounce back immediately from the Curia due to being Faction Leader, but all pieces will be lost.


As a reminder, when Concessions are lost, they aren't permanently discarded. They go back to the Forum, either directly or (depending on why they were lost) after spending some random time in the Curia to respawn, where the Senate can vote for them (as Other Business) to be reassigned to a senator.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 06, 2018, 11:56:18 AM
With Malize's distribution, that should end the 2nd segment of the Revenue Phase. I'll process everyone's distributions, and make notes about provisional cash usage during the Forum Phase, and process the 3rd segment (Republic Income) plus start the Forum Phase procession {inhale!} when I get home this afternoon.  O0
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 06, 2018, 03:38:29 PM
Okay, first an adjustment beyond the usual distributions: Fulvius donates 10 Talents (Republic Treasury up from 92 to 102) to gain 1 Influence (up to 11, Plutocrat total up to 29).

Everyone else's distributions have been made and saved on the board, and plans provisionally noted for soon in the Forum Phase.

Segment 3, Republic Income:

Starting cash: 102
Current Income: +40
No Active Wars: -0
No Land Bills: -0
Unit upkeep: 8 Legions (1st thru 8th inclusive) x -2 = -16
= 126 new Republic Treasury total!  :bd: <:-)

This ends the Revenue Phase for Turn 6.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 06, 2018, 03:41:59 PM
TURN 6 -- FORUM PHASE
----------------------------

The only Event remaining in the Forum is the Spolia Opima, which can't discard until a force commander earns a victory over an Enemy Leader.

17 Scenarios remain in the Italian Era.

Fulvius is HRAO, so the rounds start with the Frog rolling...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 4, 4, total 8[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 06, 2018, 04:08:40 PM
Hard 8! -- a nice (though very inefficient) craps payoff, and not a Random Event. ;)

He does however draw a Historical Event:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7418/vtwVVV.jpg)

The Plebian Revolt, originally of 287 BCE. The non-patricians (and even some patricians) appreciated the consolidating of the tangled mess of Roman laws into the publicly available 12 Tables, and also appreciated the adopting of a Censorial office to prosecute Senatorial corruption. But they still complain of being disenfranchised with no proper representation in the Senate -- and the consequent public strikes, refusing to work in the fields for Senatorial landowners, has instantly caused two levels of drought! (The droughts will go away at the start of the next Forum Phase, but the Event will automatically generate another two Droughts each Turn during the Population Phase! -- including this turn, but for effect I plopped them down early. ;) )

No one will bother with the public election of the Senators for many centuries, but the plebians were impressed with the principal that the Consular Tribunes had been elected to act in the best interest of the common people on equal terms with the patrician families of the Senate.

Consequently, the plebians will sort-of hold the Senate hostage each Turn, unless and until the current Presiding Magistrate (during Other Business) successfully Proposes creating the Tribunal system. Historically this was a whole other system of lawmaking somewhat separate from the Senate, and very roughly speaking a distant predecessor to the House of Commons in Britain and the House of Representatives in the United States congress. Each district of Rome was allowed to elect one of three Tribunes (thus their title), eventually to number significantly more, who would act as liaisons between the plebian assembly and the Senate. Tribunes had limited but serious power to affect Senatorial proceedings.

This is going to significantly change the game, sooner or later. I'll talk more about it when we get past Mandatory Business of this Turn's Senate, but the short version is that until the PM convinces the Senate to unlock Tribune functionality, the Republic will suffer at least a Serious Drought (level 2) each Turn -- and the PM will have to sacrifice a little Influence to create the Tribunes. (But he'll pick up a little Popularity in exchange.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 06, 2018, 04:11:40 PM
Meanwhile Appius Claudius spends 5 of his 11 Talents on a 3rd knight, increasing the Plutocrat Vote Tally to 14.

Next up, AzTank's conservatives roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 4, total 10[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 06, 2018, 04:26:57 PM
Not a 7, so that's a Scenario draw...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/5613/MpOhvc.jpg)

Ah, here we go. Pyrrhus wanted to promote himself as one of the Successors to Alexander the Great -- which he had some call for, being directly related to Olympias, Alex's mother, and also being a talented king. Part of his global strategy was to intercede on behalf of some Hellenic city-states in the Italian boot against the Republic's encroachments. Pyr was arguably the greatest general of his generation, and was able to snatch victories from the jaws of defeat -- but such victories still proved too costly for him to continue, thus forever coining the term "Pyrrhic Victory".

Fortunately for the Grogpublic, he died randomly before he could get his War going. So in this particular game, you won't have to deal with him boosting this War.

Unfortunately, the War was still coming and now it's here.

Fortunately, the War can't keep up its logistic supply on your territory, so it will go away after a couple of Turns, even if you do nothing!

Unfortunately, if it goes away on its own, you can't claim its spoils.

Fortunately, the spoils are greater than for any prior War (except against Veia, though that didn't have spoils per se but rather increased Rome's income permanently which was much better)!

Unfortunately, the chance of a Disaster or Standoff is much better, too.

Though fortunately, Pyrrhus isn't around anymore to make those D/S chances even tougher for you!

Unfortunately, you don't have any Statesmen who can void those D/S chances!

Fortunately, the Militarist Faction does have Senators with Mil skills of 6 and 7 (or possibly greater when we get around to Tripoli), so they're capable of maximizing your Legions' effectiveness against this threat.

Unfortunately, the frogurt is cursed. But that's irrelevant for this game.  ^-^

[UPDATED TO CORRECT! -- Erax correctly points out that the text of the card indicates that the War's strength only degrades upon combat, specifically on a combat result of Disaster, Standoff, or Stalemate.]


AzTank didn't provide any provisional instructions, so I've dropped him a note asking whether he wants to spend any cash attempting a knight persuasion and if so for which senator. (You should at least try a free persuasion for one of them if nothing else this round.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 10:39:07 AM
Larry, being aff (away from Forum) just sent a chat message that Fabius will try for a knight using 2 Talents, which I'll process this afternoon -- but I can go ahead and roll the result now!

(He said "Fulvius", but I'm sure he meant "Fabius". I get those two mixed up on occasion, too.  O:-) Fulvius belongs to the Plutocrats.)

(...um, he might have meant Fabius come to think of it. I'll double check, they each have 2 Talents to spend, so it's equal chances either way.)

4 or better will win:

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 3, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 10:39:39 AM
Wait, sorry, I'm so used to rolling 2d6 I typed that by accident. It should be 1d6.

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 5, total 5[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 10:46:33 AM
That's a win, but I'll have to see who he wants to deduct Talents from to gain the knight. My recommendation is Furius Camillus, since thanks to the Conservative special abilities he will DEFINITELY pass down all his pieces to an inheriting family Senator.

Edited to add: I haven't gotten a clarification on this yet, but it doesn't strictly matter for now. I'm sure he'll let me know before the first vote in the Senate phase. ;) I've left a note on his mat to remind me.

Next up, Malize's Populists roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 2, 4, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 05:22:19 PM
Striking all around that 7 recently! -- but that's a Scenario draw instead.

This turns out to be a red-text Faction card, which he adds as his 3rd card face down. I've sent him a p-mail explaining it.

Per Malize's prior instructions, Brutus spends 3 Talents for a knight attempt, and so needs 3 or more to win...

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 4, total 4[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 05:25:51 PM
...and wins the roll for his second minion.

Aurelius spends 7 cash for level-1 games, adding 1 Popularity for himself and (per a Populist special ability) 1 for his fellow senator Lucius Junius Brutus, up to 2 and 7 respectively.

Between the new knight and 2 new Pop points (per another Populist special ability), this adds another 3 normal votes), up to 18!


Erax's Progressives now roll for an Event or Scenario...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 6, 6, total 12[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 05:40:42 PM
Boxcars! -- but not an Event, so it's a Scenario.

Well well well!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/3484/p6Pct9.jpg)

The Second Latin War has arrived. While not as powerful as the Pyrrhic War, it offers a lot better rewards, since beating it will convince Rome to incorporate the area more fully into the Empi--I MEAN REPUBLIC!  :D --- adding three more Legions of potential manpower to the Force Pool, and permanently increasing the Republic's normal income by another 10 Talents!

You may also notice the text along the bottom of the card, which talks about "Matching Wars". This is the first Matching War you've drawn. When Matching Wars go Active (including Unprosecuted), they multiply each other's basic strength!

Fortunately, you long since dealt with the 1st Latin War, so this would only be a problem if you were reeaallly lax (or unlucky) about dealing with it. ;)

Also fortunately, the card has been misprinted, which I never got around to remembering to edit out: the scenario designer never included a 3rd Latin War, so you won't have to worry about ever dealing with a set of these Wars.

Still, you might as well learn about them now, while it's still safe to do so. Matching Wars are almost certainly going to be a problem down the line.

Consequently, this War is nothing but good news for the Republic, as it will give you a fairly safe and profitable expedition if y'all use some common sense.  O:-)

Meanwhile, Plautius will spend 1 of his 3 Talents on a knight persuasion attempt. He'll win on a 5 or 6...

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 4, total 4[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 05:44:15 PM
Ack, a 4, close but no canoli.

The other cash was reserved in case a new family Senator showed up in the pool by now, which hasn't happened yet, and I haven't received other instructions, so as far as I know this ends Erax's round.


I.I.'s Aristocrats roll for an Event or Scenario...

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 2, total 2[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 06:05:04 PM
Argh, wait, sorry, that should have been a 2d6...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 1, 5, total 6[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 06:07:58 PM
Phew, still not a Random Event, which is good because I already sent I.I. a p-mail explaining that he drew a Faction card and which one. ;)

I don't have instructions from I.I. about whether he wants to change his Faction Leader and/or which senator he wants to try for a knight (nor how much he wants to sacrifice doing so).

Theoretically, Quinctius Cincinnatus could pay 7 Talents for some Level-1 games, but he'd only gain 1 Popularity for doing so, and since his family isn't politically active yet (and might not be before the Early Provincial Era) that could end up being not very helpful for the expense in the medium run when Cinc retires a couple of Turns from now.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 07, 2018, 06:09:07 PM
I'll drop all of Cornelius' cash on a knight roll.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 06:10:35 PM
That's 4 cash, so only a 1 will lose...

[blockquote]Rolled 1d6 : 2, total 2[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 06:14:11 PM
Yeek! -- irony, that was also my misrolled number earlier! But a win this time.  O:-)

Corny goes up to 3 knights, and the Aristocrats' normal votes go up to 12.


This brings us to Tripoli, whose Militarists roll...

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 5, 5, total 10[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 06:33:23 PM
...the non-crappy streak continues with the final Scenario for this Turn, leaving 11 in the Italian Era deck.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3036/SOZXUX.jpg)

And welcome at last to the first Senator of the next major patrician family to go active, Aelius!

He isn't exactly "militarist" material, but Tripoli already has a strong stable (who won't be hurt much by the coming pre-Early Statesman retirement), and Aelius' four votes from Oratory will be surely welcome anywhere. Moreover, arriving at the end of the Phase, only Tripoli will have a chance this Turn to persuade him to join! (Which must be grating indeed for poor Erax...  :'( )

Those chances aren't bad either. Julius has 4 Influence + 3 Ora + 15 cash he could bribe with, which would be somewhat overkill as Aelius' loyalty is only 7 and he (currently!) has no cash to be independent with, nor the extra 7 points of security from already being aligned to a Faction.

That means, before possible counter-bribes, Julius would need to roll 15 or less on a 2d6 to win!

Except, the no-certainty rule for persuading senators means that a roll of 10, 11, or 12, will automatically fail regardless.

However, Tripoli might still add all 15 cash to the bribe in order to act as a buffer against other Factions attempting to counter-bribe down the win threshold, since if he wins he'll get all the bribery cash back under his control anyway.

However again! -- all other Players will get one shot at counter-bribing, from their Faction cash, which Tripoli cannot legally further-bribe from (only from Julius' personal cash). And while the Frog has no Faction cash, everyone else has enough cash to put a hard scotch on any persuasion attempts from Tripoli, not even counting the Conservatives who have THIRTY-ONE TALENTONS OF SILVER in Faction cash reserves!  :o

On yet another tentacle! -- scotching a persuasion attempt with counter-bribery can be self-defeating in the long run, since the bribed senator will just be that much more difficult to persuade to join anyone (one point per talent in his personal treasury).

Then again again again! -- AzTank has so much cash that he might be able to finagle a successful counter-bribe parry now, while still reserving enough cash to feasibly try to get Aelius himself with one of his own senators next Turn.

Things could get quite squirrely here...
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 06:42:56 PM
While we're waiting for Tripoli to make a choice on this, he already noted that he would spend all 5 of Manlius' cash on another automatic knight, increasing Manny's minions to 3, his Mil skill to an even-more-manly 8  :notworthy: , and the Faction's vote tally to 10.

Worth noting that when the current Manlius retires (or if he lives to retirement, to be more precise), the new Manly Senator will get to keep all his pieces, meaning that while he'll lose the 2 extra Military skill from being the generic Military Statesman he'll still have a proper Headquarters of 6. (Or whatever bonus from another knight or two he picks up before then!)

Meanwhile, I'll drop Tripoli a line pointing back here to his Persuasion opportunity (or risk, to be more precise).

If anyone wants to provisionally declare how much of their Faction cash they'll blow on counter-bribing, if Tripoli orders Julius to go for it, that could prove politically informative.  :coolsmiley:
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 07, 2018, 07:41:49 PM
Jason. Iím working off an iPhone 7 right now. I replied to your PM, but am uncertain if my reply went out. Did you receive it?   
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 08:44:51 PM
Yep, just checked back in a minute ago!

So, here's the deal: Tripoli is going for it.

But before anyone gets too trigger happy with counter-bribing, you should be aware that he's taking the opportunity to throw a Seduction card on Aelius!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9800/wtPGTM.jpg)

Saucy minx, isn't she? Trip has been fondling this card since Turn Zero, and itching to play it!!

 :D

This essentially means none of you can counter-bribe his attempt.

It also means there's no point in Julius spending more than 9 of his 15 Talents on the bribe: his Inf + Ora exactly matches Ael's Loyalty (7 each), and any natural roll of 10 or above is an automatic loss anyway. So 9 Talents will get Julius the maximum possible chance to win, a little more than 83% if I recall correctly.

2d6, 9 or below wins!

[blockquote]Rolled 2d6 : 3, 6, total 9[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 08:46:38 PM
She needed every talent!  :coolsmiley:

I'll make adjustments soon. This ends the Forum Phase in effect. I'll do Pop Phase tomorrow afternoon and set up the Senate Phase for this turn.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 07, 2018, 09:11:10 PM
As some quick considerations to be making preliminary plans about in the coming Senate (starting Thursday afternoon):

Mandatory Business:

Proposing two new Consuls (with an eye toward whether one or both of them will be going out to the Wars);

(Ya'll don't have enough War threat yet to unlock Dictator and Master of Horse offices.)

Proposing a Censor (possibly still the current one -- I'll need to double-check the rule on that to be sure I've understood correctly that Censors can be directly re-elected);

Prosecution(s) if any.


Other Business (not necessarily in this order):

Time to unlock Tribunes?

Land Bills (depending on Unrest factors)?

Raising the 9th and perhaps 10th Legions?

Sending one or both Consuls to War(s), and if so then with how many Legions?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 08, 2018, 01:33:31 PM
Hello guys, I got access today and expect to be fully active tomorrow. I believe the Pyrrhan War has to be actively fought for it to lose strength, it won't wind down by itself if left unprosecuted.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 08, 2018, 01:46:18 PM
Erax, upon examination, is totally correct, and I have updated the post introducing that war accordingly.

(Worse, I remember making a note to mention this condition along the way, and then apparently a neuron zigged instead of zagged...  :buck2: )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on April 26, 2012, 06:47:07 AM
If only we had a general who could lead forces sufficient to successfully prosecute a strength 7 war...... ;)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 08, 2018, 05:34:38 PM
Hee hee hee...

Note that the Groghead forum engine has been experiencing some goofy timing problems today, so Tripoli isn't really posting from back in late April 2012. ;)

My apologies for the delay -- got laid out by a short-term stomach bug of some kind this afternoon, but I'm back in action. Let's get the Senate going!


TURN SIX -- POPULATION PHASE
----------------------------

All senators with Major office get a Major suspicion marker.

No cards currently waiting in the Curia.

No Unprosecuted Wars to affect Unrest. But the Plebian Revolt has generated two ongoing Drought Effects, which each add +1 to Unrest, up to 2.

The current HRAO is Fulvius of the Plutocrats, who has a Popularity of nothing (0, totally neutral). So his State of the Republic speech will be 3d6 -2 Unrest.

[blockquote]Rolled 3d6 : 5, 2, 5, total 12[/blockquote]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 08, 2018, 05:37:03 PM
12 - 2 unrest = 10, which on the chart adds +1 Unrest, up to 3.

With that, the Senate officially starts. I'll be taking snapshots of everyone's current mat and posting those in a few minutes, along with some commentary about the State of the Republic.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 08, 2018, 05:47:17 PM
Here are the current Events active in the Forum, and the two existent (and Active) Wars:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/4519/8rlDCy.jpg)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/3419/OjssqV.jpg)


The Republic currently fields 8 Active Legions (the 1st thru 8th inclusive), with another two possible Legions (9th and 10th) in the Force Pool.

There are 126 Talents in the Republic's Treasury, with a current normal income of 40 per Turn. The currently Active Legions will cost 16 Talents next Turn (if they still survive). The currently Active Wars will cost 10 Talents each next turn.

Unrest, just as a reminder, is currently +3 (after the most recent State of the Republic address).

Next I'll compile the Player mats.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 08, 2018, 06:57:47 PM
It took me some thought to gauge a 2nd place Faction right now, but ultimately I lean toward I.I.'s Aristocrats. His totals of cash, influence, and voting power, simply outscore the Plutocrats; his luck at gaining financial Concessions keeps him able to spend cash as he likes while still rivaling the Plutocrats; and having at last pulled ahead solidly in the Influence Totals his increasing number of knights can now bring double voting power to bear on any topic, pro or con -- arguably the best activist advantage in the game, and one that the Plutocrats will always lack (having no voting activist abilities at all).

This does remind me, by the way, that Cinc's recent Influence gain (after being elected Field Consul again, and winning the Aequian War) should have generated two extra influence points to be spent on one of his other senators.

For that matter, Cornelius donated 10 Talents to Rome's Treasury last Turn (Turn 5), which should have generated another extra Influence point to be spent somewhere other than Corny.

Yeesh, going back to check farther, Valerius being elected one of the Consular tribunes should have generated another point, too! Man, I am suckinnngggg at keeping track of the Aristocrats' Influence farming, sorry! (Fortunately this faultiness on my part has not affected the game yet.)

I.I., let me know where those four extra Influence points should be!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4102/scaSiD.jpg)



Tripoli's Militarists probably rank 5th among Factions this Turn, but that could start changing again soon, and sharply. The least powerful of the original four Factions -- partly due to a spate of unlucky rolls, and partly due to the other three original factions conspiring with each other (and possibly against him) -- the Militarists have recently scored a 3rd senator at last with much-needed voting power, and his careful conservation of income has given him some latent strength at taking advantage of opportunities. With stronger Wars coming over the horizon, his fellow Factions may start turning to him soon; or they may need rescuing before they'll give him his extra bonuses from military victories! His two Tax Farming Concessions are helping keep him afloat meanwhile as he quietly trains for mega-campaigning.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/4806/pz1l2Q.jpg)



The Frog's Plutocrats are lingering in 3rd place, both generally among the Factions and among the majority voting block (so far), but ironically this is due to bad luck in not being able to snap up any Concessions yet! (And a few bad luck rolls elsewhere.) His cash generation abilities offset his lack of other kinds of special abilities, as demonstrated by him giving a ludicrous total of 11 Talents to each of his senators during distributions this Turn! His voting and total Influence tallies are nothing to sneeze at, and his political capabilities can be judged by him having successfully Proposed one of his own senators as Rome's first Censor last Turn! -- a dangerous concentration of power in a Faction which usually manages to produce one of the Consuls each Turn, including last Turn! Whether his Censor can score an election two Turns in a row remains to be seen...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/6614/5vrykG.jpg)



Currently the indisputably most powerful Faction in the Republic, AzTank's Conservatives show no signs of weakness. With an economy to rival the Plutocrats (currently), the Pontifex Maximus for life, successful senators pushing a total Influence that has up until recently kept the Aristocrats from activist voting, a respectable voting total, and no less than four senators in his Faction (partly thanks to the Conservatives' unique starting bonus), it's hard to see AzTank's star descending any time soon. His activist knights will lend strength toward keeping other Factions from gaining power, if he so chooses; and his permanent capability of Statesman inheritance could keep his gains in play longer than other Factions during the long game, even as his initial advantage fades to less importance over time. His only main weakness currently, is his own success, making him a potential target of competition if the Factions start putting their own power ahead of the safety of the Republic.

Heck, he's so powerful that he hasn't even bothered to clarify yet where I should put his most recently persuaded knight! :D (Being away from his computer, he thought Fulvius was one of his own senators, an understandable mistake; personally I recommend the knight should go to Furius Camillus, who will safely conserve it for inheritance one way or another.)

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/462/kVycFy.jpg)



Malize's Populists have spiked into 4th place recently, now leading the three minority Factions, and competently leveraging his special Faction abilities into the new strongest single voting block in the Senate! -- even a touch stronger than the activist knight support for the Aristocrats! The majority three Factions must either lockstep even tighter to keep their reins on senatorial authority, or alternately the stronger Factions may start looking to compete against each other by courting the increasingly powerful swing votes, among which the Populists take precedence. There is no reason to expect the Populists to slow their rise to power, as long as Malize's play stays careful (helped by his lucrative local Mining rights); but with only two senators (as he suffered back during the Barbarian Sack of Rome) Malize still lacks any buffering against random disaster -- or possibly intentional sabotage. On the other hand, Malize overtly sports no less than three unplayed Faction cards, much like his minority ally the Progressives, which suggests more potential surging on the way.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/8342/tmiY1u.jpg)



Erax's Progressives are necessarily in last place, for obvious reasons. Aside from being naturally hampered by late entry, he has also been haunted by bad luck rolls, most destructively the untimely deaths of two Flaminian senators. This has kept his total influence and voting power low, although with his increasing number of knights and a possibly cooperative oppositional base among other Factions, he could start racking up Influence by voting against senatorial gains or for senatorial harm (or for emergency Land Bills if those become necessary soon). Recently he netted two local Tax Farming territories, which will help his struggling Faction economy, too.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7044/OUSnCN.jpg)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on April 26, 2012, 08:40:32 AM
Three to Cornelius, one to Valerius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 08, 2018, 07:50:34 PM
Will do (tomorrow afternoon)!

It's time for the Frog to consider Proposing the next two Consuls. If one is an Aristocrat, I'll try reaaaalllly hard to remember to add an extra point of Influence this time.  :-[ (Though if I.I. manages to remember for me, I won't complain!  O:-) )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on April 26, 2012, 09:43:27 AM
Before we nominate candidates, I think we should consider whether we'll focus on one war or try to knock out both at the same time. With a potential maximum strength of 20 (including MIL bonuses) and a very healthy treasury, we should have a reasonably chance of success with the latter.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 08, 2018, 08:48:30 PM
I certainly have opinions and recommendations about this, but while I don't think I should say what they are (as the neutral ump) I do agree on a procedural ground with this advice.  O0 (I mean that y'all should consider what to do about the Wars before deciding who should be Consuls.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 09, 2018, 12:17:15 AM
Assuming the majority bloc continues electing its 5-mil senators, I suggest sending 5 legions against each war. This practically guarantees a stalemate or better vs the pyrrhans, which will weaken them, and gives us good odds vs the latins as well.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 09, 2018, 06:55:19 AM
I'd want to double check the odds, but I recall that the Pyrrhic War has by far the most dangerous chances of a D/S result in the pre-Early Eras. I can't recall (being at the office) if it's 25ish percent with Pyrrhus, or if it would have been even worse with him, but it's a serious number.

Someone who bookmarked the percentage spread (I did but not at the office, duh ;) ), might want to look into that. A total of 7 gets a Disaster, and 16 gets a Standoff, on a 3d6.

The point is that if y'all send enough Legion power to curbstomp that war, you're consequently risking a decent chance of a straight percentage loss of those same Legions instead. Which is going to be true in any case, but the scenario designer subtly designed that war to feel safer picking at it with acceptable loss risks until it goes away.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 09, 2018, 07:52:08 AM
D/S results are determined before modifications, ie they're the dice roll before we add legions, subtract the war strength, and so on.

Pyrrhan War
D on a 07: 6.9%.  S on a 16: 2.8%.
Stalemate+ with 5 Legions + 5 Mil requires a 5+ on 3d6, which gives us a 98% chance.
Victory requires an 11+, which is a 50% chance, or 47% discounting a Standoff on a 16.

2nd Latin War
D on a 04: 1.4%.  S on an 18: 0.5%.
Victory with 5 Legions + 5 Mil requires an 8+, which is an 84% chance, or 83% discounting a Standoff on an 18.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 09, 2018, 07:59:19 AM
I recommend the curb stomping approach, with the Pyrrhan war being the first target, and holding the line on the 2nd Latin war.  Any losses suffered would still leave enough forces to finish off the Latin War next turn, minimizing the need to raise a significant number of legions.  Because of the +3 unrest, we need to end one of the wars this turn.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 09, 2018, 08:06:25 AM
Hrm. Note to myself to check again with the scenario designer's BotR rules this afternoon, because I must be badly mis-remembering his chart for D/S combined percentage results (with and without Enemy leaders) for his prequel wars. Or he badly miscalculated.

Well, this is why I asked for someone to check the actual percentage spreads. A combined 10ish percent risk of an automatic D/S result is much better than a combined 25ish percent!


On the Unrest factor, keep in mind that the minimum unrest during Pop Phase State of Republic speeches, is going to be 2 in any case, until and unless the Senate votes to start allowing the Plebian Council and (more importantly for gameplay purposes) its Tribunes to exist.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 09, 2018, 08:11:03 AM
Any consideration of Erax's very handy stat results, and the question of curbstomping one war now (it isn't quite possible to curbstomp both wars right now although a victory in both wars at once is far from impossible) should also keep in mind opportunity gains for knocking out one or the other war.

In other words, if y'all vote to go after one war now instead of the other, with enough Legion power to crushingly win with minimal chance of losses, what are you gaining either way now compared with what you'll be gaining next turn either way?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on April 27, 2012, 02:01:10 AM
I am thinking to nominate Cornelius and Flaminius.  In connection with that nomination I would want the following commitments: (1) that we commit to two wars next turn (2) that one of my guys be censor.  In addition, I would agree not to prosecute the Progressives or the Aristocrats this turn as censor.  I would send you guys private messages, but the interface on Grogheads is too much of a pain in the neck.

So, I am not making these nominations yet, but asking you guys if you agree.  Also, my gmail is dmakman@gmail.com

So, if anyone wants to talk privately, It would be ideal to open up a gmail hangout so that we have a channel. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on April 27, 2012, 03:20:12 AM
Totally in favor!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on April 27, 2012, 05:04:12 AM
The PM system seems to be TANGO UNIFORM.  For communications purposes, can we shift to email?  My email address is SteveLohr@aol.com.  If others could post their email addresses, that would be great.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 09, 2018, 05:44:20 PM
While I'm catching up on developments since my last check-in this afternoon, I checked the scenario designer's odds table for his pre-Early Wars.

I was remembering the Pyrrhic War with Pyrrhus, who boosts the D/S chances to 25.9% combined. Without Pyr, as in our game's run of the dice, the D/S results drop to the 9.7% Erax provided stats for.

The other dangerous D/S chances was for the Veientine War at 23.2%, if Camillus wasn't fighting it -- though in our game, he did.

What I was inadvertently mis-remembering was the chance for the Veientine War as though it was the chance for the Pyrrhic War without Pyr.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 09, 2018, 06:06:44 PM
I have also confirmed, checking the rules again so far as I can find, that a senator can be elected Censor any number of times in a row, so long as he's otherwise still valid -- and so long as other senators can be persuaded to keep electing him!  ^-^

Current Censors can be elected to higher offices (Consul, or Dictator if that emergency post becomes unlocked), but of course then someone else must be elected Censor at the first opportunity.

For practical purposes this Turn, this means Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats can be elected Censor again, or can be elected to one of the Consular posts (since he wasn't a Consul last Turn).
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 09, 2018, 07:32:58 PM
As an administrative note, the forum will be migrating to a new platform over the next 24 hours, so we should consider not posting anything else officially about the game, by p-mail or in the game thread until Saturday night.

Some of you may also get two messages about this by p-mail, since I just realized I didn't include some players in my blast list.  :-[
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 10, 2018, 09:24:28 AM
Does a Censor keep his office until the next Censor election, or just until prosecutions are done?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 28, 2012, 12:07:28 AM
Does a Censor keep his office until the next Censor election, or just until prosecutions are done?

Yes, Censors are still Censor after the prosecutions. This becomes important if both Consuls (and possibly the Dictator, not to mention Master of Horse) are sent to lead armies to War. The Censor, being necessarily a Prior Consul (one of the qualifications of validity), gets to be HRAO.

Also, assassinations can still happen after the prosecution segment (and before the Censor's re/election on the following Turn), and investigating suspicion of the assassin's Faction Leader (if the assassin is caught) is still a Censor's job.

The Censor temporarily gets to be Presiding Magistrate during a normal or (for assassination) special prosecution segment, and hands that back to the HRAO afterward (unless somehow the Censor is in fact the HRAO, which could happen for an incoming Senate Phase with a caught assassin before the Censor as HRAO has succeeded in Proposing the two new Consuls.) But the Censor remains the Censor, whether PM or not, until the next election.

Since you mention it, though, who else doesn't keep their post after a prosecution is finished, are the Prosecutor and the Advocate. The Censor (in the modern expanded rules) must appoint a (willing) senator as Prosecutor, the idea being that the Censor acts as judge with the other senator as what came to be known later as the "judge advocate". The accused senator can then choose a (defense) Advocate to help him, or he can choose to be his own Advocate. This all affects various stat combinations that go into rolling for the outcomes. There will always be a Senate Vote for or against conviction, however, which also gets added to generate the final outcome, so the players get to actively contribute to the trial.


EDITED TO ADD: CLICK HERE TO BYPASS FURTHER FORUM-GLITCH DISCUSSION AND JUMP TO THE NEXT GAME POSTS! (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22942.msg635663#msg635663)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on April 29, 2012, 12:09:17 AM
So are the forums stable again?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 29, 2012, 02:15:07 AM
Unclear. They weren't yesterday afternoon!

Edited to add: Or, checking, last night after 8pm my time (when I was hoping things would be better)!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 11, 2018, 01:51:31 PM
So are the forums stable again?

Given your post is dated April of 2012, I would say "no"   ;)  However, you are doing a wonderful impression of Marty McFly!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 11, 2018, 02:01:44 PM
Huh. What's even weirder, is I didn't notice that that particular post was misdated. Nor Malize's when he asked me!

This post lists today (11/11) at 3:01 Central US Standard.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 29, 2012, 05:46:32 AM
Four posts on the forum today since my last one; they're all dated correctly, but the experimental sample size may be too small to bet safely yet.

Five posts now counting this one, dated at 11/11/18, 5:30pm Central Standard US time.

I still kind of recommend waiting until tomorrow afternoon again.

I will say that I haven't seen evidence of actual forum posts being lost. Only a little evidence of p-mails being lost (and maybe they were just back-sorted according to the dating bug, I don't know.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on April 29, 2012, 06:51:40 AM
Jason-I'll send you a test PM in a minute.  See if you receive it
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on April 29, 2012, 06:53:27 AM
Well, I can't speak for the forum, but the PM system is still messed up.  It won't let me send any messages.  I get the message "You have exceeded the limit of 20 personal messages per hour."  However, I haven't received any messages for almost 2 days.  Of note, the timestamp on the mails is still off.  I sent this email at 6:35 PM CST, and it is stamped 6:53 AM
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 11, 2018, 08:43:48 PM
That was happening to me, too, back when I was p-mailing.

Also, your date for posting was 2012.

My date was 11/11/18, 9:43 or :44 Central US standard. (I'm mentioning this now with every post, because I have some minor evidence that the dates are retroactively resetting, too, and I'm testing to see if I can catch it.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 11, 2018, 09:03:53 PM
So are the forums stable again?

Given your post is dated April of 2012, I would say "no"   ;)  However, you are doing a wonderful impression of Marty McFly!

Just me, my Delorean, and the flux capacitor...
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on April 29, 2012, 07:41:49 PM
Jason-For what it's worth, I received your test PM from last night when I logged on this morning.  However, the website won't let me PM a response, as it incorrectly believes I have sent  20f PMs in the past hour.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on April 29, 2012, 07:46:36 PM
Noted. Have you manually logged out and then back in?

I did that for my Surface Pro 3 (Win 8.1) this morning, and I noticed that the system occasionally thinks I still need to log in again.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 12, 2018, 12:43:33 PM
Okay, dangit, I forgot to timestamp my last post after making it, so I could do a comparison!!

I see it has gone to April 29, 2012. I can't honestly recall whether I'm sure it read this morning's time this morning.

Well, this proves decisively that manually logging out and logging back in doesn't reset the synch...

Edited to add: this post is the correct time and date, about 1:43 Central US standard, Nov 12, 2018.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 12, 2018, 03:02:05 PM
Test post.  Being sent at 4:01 PM CST on 12 November
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 12, 2018, 03:08:42 PM
I just sent a test PM to everyone.  Let me know if you got it.  I got a copy I sent to myself, so the PM system may be working
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 12, 2018, 04:10:37 PM
I replied-to-all on the p-m, that I did get the message.

Also your two posts at 4:02 and 4:08pm (my local time, Nov 12, 2018), came through properly stamped.

Edited to add: as did this post at 5:10pm local time.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 12, 2018, 06:32:43 PM
It looks like the forum and pm system may be up then. Did everyone else receive my PM?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 12, 2018, 06:45:50 PM
I'm pretty sure some of my posts were backstamped after you did the p-mail. I haven't seen any new problems in a few hours, yet.

Note: this post was correctly stamped Nov 12th, 2018, 7:46ish pm, CST.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 12, 2018, 06:51:02 PM
On the other hand, there are still some definite oddities. The Front Page feed for the forum index page is gone; as are our avatars. And I think the secondary ad banner is gone.

None of these are necessarily signs that problems are continuing, though; they might be attempts at localizing a problem. (The new ad banner, mostly for Amazon in my experience, seemed to go active around the time the desynchs started happening. But that might be coincidence, or I might have the timing off.)

Anyway, once things seem safe to continue, I'll not only try a p-mail blast to alert people, but I'll also add a link to the 'plot' continuance, on one of the earlier posts when we temporarily suspended Senate operations. ;)


(Edited to add, this post was also stamped correctly.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 16, 2018, 05:18:09 PM
Sending out a test message on the newly reactivated forum, for anyone who set their account to automatically subscribe to the thread sending alerts to some email (or who manually subscribed perhaps).

Speaking of, you should all probably p-mail me a safe email address at once, in case the forum tanks again while they're still working things out. Or if you don't have my email, it's my first and last name, no spaces, at compuserve.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 16, 2018, 07:06:37 PM
I got the test message. When do we start up again?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 16, 2018, 07:41:25 PM
Probably Sunday. I'm going to hash up a position summary for convenience, Saturday afternoon, so everyone knows where we left off.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 17, 2018, 06:33:03 AM
The site went down temporarily again last night (or was accidentally set up to discourage spammers by restricting access rates, or something): "The website is temporarily unable to service your request as it exceeded resource limit. Please try again later."

But as of 2 hours ago it's back up again, obviously. ;)

Still, this is why I continue to recommend patience until the admins polish up their stressful work.  O0 We'll get back to it when the forum is stable again.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 17, 2018, 11:36:34 AM
standing by
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 17, 2018, 03:50:43 PM
Forum is still a little unstable, so I recommend making sure you copy-all on any texts before posting; and then check carefully to make sure they arrived.

Also, we should be careful not to rush too far ahead since some members may be temporarily blipped out and unable to access the forum to weigh in on matters. (This is aside from usual travel and real-life delays.)

I'll start posting a position recap soon.

I sent test p-mails to everyone last night, but I've only heard back from Tripoli by that method. Did everyone else receive them?!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 17, 2018, 03:54:16 PM
Okay, you may click on this link to go back to the position recaps at the start of the Senate Phase this turn: http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22942.msg635286#msg635286

I'll soon add an update linking back here for Players to jump quickly past the Groghead-forum glitch discussions. It'll be reaaaly big and purple, impossible to miss, don't worry. (There's a bit of glitch discussion mixed with game discussion at first, so I made sure to include it.)

The Frog was in the process of considering which two senators to Propose as the next Consuls this Turn.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 17, 2018, 08:12:12 PM
Bumping the thread a little to clarify that I'm activating the game again as of tonight.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 18, 2018, 01:18:24 PM
In case anyone is wondering, game activity is occurring, just by various chat methods, not official actions yet.  O:-)

I anticipate official actions soon, possibly passed on through me via those chat methods, since Players can't always be where they can access the game forum.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 18, 2018, 05:43:16 PM
I would like to propose the following for consideration:  Claudius for Consul, Manlius of the Militarist for Consul to prosecute the  pyrric war,and Fulvius for Censor this turn, with the condition that neither the The Plutocrats, The Militarists or the Progressive be prosecuted this turn.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 18, 2018, 05:50:37 PM
^^ Note that this is not an official "Proposal" (which he can't do, as Tripoli doesn't control the HRAO).

He's actually trying to propose a Public Contract between the Players involved. If they all agree, then I'll be able to prevent them from willingly breaking the contract. (Contracts can still be broken by accident in various ways, which then gives Players 'downstream' within the Contract permission to step out of fulfilling their parts.)

(It's also possible for other players to join the contract, even if they have nothing specifically to do with it. So for example, Malize's Populists have no senators involved in the contract, and his senators would still be exposed to possible prosecution by the Frog's Fulvius. However, he might still join the Contract as a way of stating that his votes would be counted automatically in favor of Proposals fulfilling the Contract, as far as it goes.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 18, 2018, 05:51:51 PM
I would like to propose the following for consideration:  Claudius for Consul, Manlius of the Militarist for Consul to prosecute the  pyrric war,and Fulvius for Censor this turn, with the condition that neither the The Plutocrats, The Militarists or the Progressive be prosecuted this turn.

With Populist immunity, agreed
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 18, 2018, 05:59:10 PM
I would like to propose the following for consideration:  Claudius for Consul, Manlius of the Militarist for Consul to prosecute the  pyrric war,and Fulvius for Censor this turn, with the condition that neither the The Plutocrats, The Militarists or the Progressive be prosecuted this turn.

With Populist immunity, agreed

Note that the other Players can still enter the Contract regardless of whether this condition is met. But if the Frog grants the provisional exemption from prosecution, then Malize would be contracted to vote for the relevant Proposals, and I would automatically process those votes as the Proposals come up. (The Frog's assent to the Contract would also set up automatic Proposals for me to process, once all stated parties ratify it.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 18, 2018, 06:06:26 PM
Also note that if any Player accepting the original Contract proposal agrees to include Malize's provision, then Tripoli (and anyone else relevantly involved who has already agreed to the original Contract proposal) must clarify whether or not he agrees with the provision.

If not, then the original Contract either stands without the provision, or else the Contract may be dead in the water if the relevant parties (being Contracted to act accordingly) cannot agree on whether to include Malize's provision for Fulvius not to act against the Populist senators.


(It's kind of like setting up a program in Fortran. ;) Unless the whole thing is valid, it won't even run.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 19, 2018, 07:35:31 AM
The Frog sent a chat note (last night just after midnight my time) that he accepts both the original Contract proposal and also Malize's condition for joining the Contract.

Tripoli (who runs Manlius), is really the only other person who needs to verify in, since his proposed Contract only involves senators from the Plutocrats and the Militarists. Tripoli already automatically agreed with the original Contract (having proposed it), but should technically agree or disagree with the provision for the Frog not to prosecute the Populists this Turn (if Fulvius gets elected Censor of course).

All three Players (if Tripoli agrees with Malize's provision to join the Contract) would be then bound to automatically vote in favor of the planned Proposals, and I'd process those votes automatically. (Or for only Tripoli and the Frog if Trip doesn't agree to Malize's provision.)


Any of the other three Players can agree to join the first or second version of the Contract, but this isn't strictly necessary. Joining the Contract would also lock them into voting along the Contracted plan. (If some stage of the Contract somehow fails, then Contracted Players need not continue on with the plan.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 19, 2018, 08:39:44 AM
The Progressives agree to both versions of the Contract (noting that both grant us immunity).
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 19, 2018, 01:49:31 PM
Original contract terms for this Turn, agreed to so far by: Tripoli (who is proposing it); the Frog (by chat); and as secondary agreement by Erax.

Provisional contract terms (Populists not to be investigated by the Censor) agreed to so far by: Malize (who is proposing it); the Frog (by chat); and as a secondary agreement by Erax.

Tripoli must announce whether he is accepting or rejecting the provisional contract terms. Doing so will validate and activate one or the other Contract (since he and the Frog, or rather their senators, would be the main enactors).

AzTank sends message by chat that he will not be joining either version of the Contract. He will still be free to support or oppose any actions triggered in sequence by the Contract.

Nothing has been heard from I.I. recently, one way or another....  ??? (He may not be aware yet that we're back in business.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 19, 2018, 07:18:16 PM
Original contract terms for this Turn, agreed to so far by: Tripoli (who is proposing it); the Frog (by chat); and as secondary agreement by Erax.

Provisional contract terms (Populists not to be investigated by the Censor) agreed to so far by: Malize (who is proposing it); the Frog (by chat); and as a secondary agreement by Erax.

Tripoli must announce whether he is accepting or rejecting the provisional contract terms. Doing so will validate and activate one or the other Contract (since he and the Frog, or rather their senators, would be the main enactors).

AzTank sends message by chat that he will not be joining either version of the Contract. He will still be free to support or oppose any actions triggered in sequence by the Contract.

Nothing has been heard from I.I. recently, one way or another....  ??? (He may not be aware yet that we're back in business.)

I accept all of the contract terms, including the provisional terms, that Populists not to be investigated by the Censor
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 19, 2018, 07:44:46 PM
This validates and activates the Contract as stated, with the Malize Provision.

Tripoli, the Frog, Malize, and Erax, enter into the Sixth Turn Grand Convocation (as I shall colorfully name their public Contract), wherein each Player of the Contract shall commit all available votes toward the following actions during this Senate session, which shall be automatically processed as follows:

1.) the Proposal of Manlius of the Militarists and Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats for Consul;

2.) the agreement between them (if elected) that Manlius will be Field Consul, and Appius Roman Consul;

3.) the Proposal of Fulvius of the Plutocrats for Censor this Turn;

4.) the agreement that, if elected, Fulvius shall not investigate any member of the Militarists, the Plutocrats, the Populists, or the Progressives this Turn on Minor or Major Suspicions of Corruption (note that this Contract cannot, however, legally waive Special Major Investigations of Assassination attempts);

5.) and the Proposal to send Manlius to Prosecute the Pyrrhic War.

This Contract does not prevent Appius (if the plans get that far) from also introducing a formal Proposal to Raise more potentially available Legions, which he may choose to do before fulfilling the Contracted promise to send Manlius against the Pyrrhic War.

(Strictly speaking the Contract does not specify that Manlius will be given more than one Legion, the minimum possible, to fight the War! -- but unless Iím instructed otherwise by the Frog I will presumptively process the Proposal as sending all available Legions.)

The Aristocrats and the Conservatives may also still join this Contract as a way of pre-specifying their agreement to vote as noted; but this will not render them immune from potential investigation by the Censor.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 19, 2018, 07:49:56 PM
Having achieved this political monument, I will theoretically start processing it tomorrow afternoon, since it's 8:48pm here now, and my left ear has decided to pick up some kind of infection that feels like an occasional ice-pick.  :buck2:

(Or possibly one of the other two Players has sent an assassin after the umpire...  ^-^ Why couldn't it have been a Seduction Intrigue...  :-* )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 20, 2018, 05:43:18 PM
Blergh. Long day at work (longer day tomorrow), and sitting around for an hour and a half at the clinic (hopefully not to be repeated soon).

Let's get the processes started!

In accord with the 6thTurGraCon: Fulvius of the Plutocrats Proposes Manlius of the Militarists, and Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats, as the new Consuls this Turn.

All four 6thTurGraCon members automatically vote in favor. Even if the other two Factions voted against, and even counting for their activist abilities (which would indeed activate), there would be +17 votes for the Proposal, so it will pass.

In accord with the 6thTurGraCon: Manlius agrees to be the Field Consul, leaving the Frog controlling the HRAO again with his senator Appius Claudius as Roman Consul. Each of the two senators gains 4 influence, up to 8 and 17 respectively; as do their Factions totally, up to 14 and 33 respectively.

The Pontifex Maximus is still alive; and no Dictator is needed yet.

In accord with the 6thTurGraCon: Appius as the new Roman Consul takes over as the new Presiding Magistrate, and Proposes Fulvius of his fellow Plutocrats as the new Censor.

All four 6thTurGraCon members automatically vote in favor, with the same majority results. Fulvius gains 4 Influence, up to 15; and the Plutocrats gain 4 total up to 37. (The Aristocrats still retain first place influence at 39.)

Fulvius temporarily takes the PM post, to declare whether or not there will be investigations this Turn. In accord with the 6thTurGraCon, the only senators who might be investigated are...

...from the Aristocrats: prior Consul Quinctius Cincinnatus (Major); Cornelius (Minor); and Valerius (two Minors);

and from the Conservatives: Fabius the Pontifex Maximus (Major).


(As a sidenote, there are some Minor corruption Suspicions on one of Erax's senators which I forgot to mark before taking the pre-Senate snapshot. They'll be irrelevant this Turn, under the terms of the Contract, but I thought I should still account for my inadvertence there.  O:-) )


We now await the Frog's choice whether to initiate any investigations this Turn.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 20, 2018, 06:12:29 PM
As I understand it, the Conservatives are winning (or maybe in second place).  So, I am inclined to proescute Fabius.  (Sorry Larry).

How do I calculate my odds of success? 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 20, 2018, 08:44:53 PM
Just so we're clear: you can launch only one Major Prosecution per Turn, win or lose.

And if you win, Fabius will die.

Which, being a family Senator, will mean that his card loses all its chits and goes to the Curia to await respawning back into the Forum (from which some other Faction, or possibly AzTank again, may convince the new Fabian scion to join.)

If you succeed, you'll also need to Propose a new Pontifex Maximus, since that's Fabius right now. All conferred priesthoods will remain active for life regardless. (Although, AzTank might decide to reassign Fulvius' priesthood to someone else! -- which will deduct a point of Influence from Fulv and from the Plutocrats. He can do this at any time, at will, during any Senate Phase, including at any time during the Prosecution, though not between the verdict and the result.)


Incidentally, AzTank still needs to tell me which of his senators paid the 2 Talents and won the knight for his new or extra minion earlier this Turn. It wouldn't have made any difference in the voting results up to now, but it could prove handy soon. I still recommend giving Marcus Furius Camillus (your Faction Leader) a second minion thereby, since he's guaranteed to pass down all his chits as inheritance to his next family member.


As for odds, I'll work out the details on that next.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 20, 2018, 09:05:22 PM
Some technical details which might become relevant soon...  ^-^

Fulvius does NOT have to Investigate and Prosecute Fabius for a "Major" suspicion! -- he can choose to use one of his two "Minor" Prosecution attempts instead. In a victory, this will not result in death for Fabius, only some nerfing.

If the Censor (Fulvius in this case) is assassinated before declaring a Prosecution, there will be no Prosecutions this Turn. If he is assassinated during a Prosecution, then that will end the Prosecution.

If a Censor is assassinated, there will not be another Censor election until next Turn. Special Major Investigations of Faction Leaders of caught Assassins will still be Prosecuted, but by the current Presiding Magistrate. (So assassinating a Censor isn't safe from retributive investigation.)

Prosecutions cannot be vetoed by the PontMax's special one-veto-per-Turn ability.

I should mention here that AzTank could have used his PontMax's veto ability to scotch the Consul Proposal! But the only thing that would have happened (aside from the conspirators fadging up another similar Contract) would have been the Proposal of Julius, a slightly less capable general, and Appius again, as Consuls. So I didn't bother asking AzTank if he wanted to veto it. He might need it later (though I wasn't expecting Fabius per se to be Prosecuted -- I suspected the Frog had someone in mind, but I didn't know who.)

Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 20, 2018, 09:46:07 PM
For a quick summary of the process:

1.) the Censor must declare he will Prosecute the target (not strictly done yet) and the type of investigation (ditto). Minor suspicions cannot be given Major Prosecutions, but a Major suspicion can be given a Minor Prosecution (with less penalty for the accused on conviction).

2.) the Censor must choose another (consenting) senator to act as Prosecutor -- the Censor is running the trial, not actually prosecuting. Edited to add: valid Prosecutors can be any senator actually in Rome for the Senate, except for the Censor, and except for the Accused. (There's an exception to that, if the Censor is the Faction Leader of a caught assassin: then he must investigate himself! However, Prosecutors and Advocates aren't used in a Prosecution for assassination conspiracy anyway.)

3.) the Accused must choose someone to be his Advocate. He can choose himself, if he wishes! -- or any other senator currently in Rome. Not the Prosecutor nor Censor though, duh. (Note again that in a Special Prosecution for investigating a Faction Leader for assassination conspiracy, no Prosecutors or Advocates can be chosen.)

4.) All Players will be called by the Censor (in order or in no order, Censor's choice) to vote at the start of the Trial, in favor or against Acquittal. Any senator (including the Censor, Prosecutor, and Advocate) can vote for or against (or abstain). All knights and special Faction abilities will factor in. So will senators (not Factions) spending personal treasury cash to buy more votes!

5.) The Accused's Player may make a Popular Appeal, rolling 2d6 and then adding his Popularity (or subtracting if negative Pop). The total is compared to a special table and can add or subtract 4, 8, or 16 votes toward Acquittal. This can also result in a mob freeing or lynching the Accused! (And possibly his opponents or the Advocate!) Fabius has 2 Popularity, so there is no chance of him being slain by the mob, and in the worst possible case 12 votes against him. (It should be noted that this makes Populist senators much harder to convict!)

6.) Assuming the Trial doesn't end by Popular Appeal, the Prosecutor and Advocate make their cases: 2d6 + Advocate's Oratory - Prosecutor's Oratory. (This represents the net result of voting by the hundreds of other normally invisible senators, which could be as much as plus or minus 20.)

7.) This leads to the final tally: Net Player Votes + Net Popular Votes (if any) + Net Trial Votes + the Accused's Influence (13 for Fabius). Any result less than 0 is Conviction. Otherwise Acquittal. Accused loses the relevant Suspicion mark in any case.

8.) Upon Acquittal, the Advocate (if not the Accused) gains 3 Influence, and Prosecutor (not Censor) loses 3. If Freed by mob action, the Censor and Prosecutor both risk death by mortality chit (even for Minor Prosecutions).

9.) Upon any Conviction, the Accused will lose any Prior Consul chit, and the Prosecutor will gain Prior Consul status (if he doesn't have it already). For Minor Conviction, the Accused loses 5 Popularity, loses 5 Influence, and all his Concessions go directly to the Forum for potential reassignment. For Major Conviction, the Accused dies. Either way, the Prosecutor (not the Censor!) will gain half the Accused's lost Influence, rounded up.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 21, 2018, 07:09:38 PM
Iíll try a major with Aelius to prosecute.  I will prosecute Larryís guy who has a 4 oratory so he canít defend himself.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 21, 2018, 08:29:58 PM
That's Spurious Cassius Vicellinus, who would be a nice vulnerable target (mainly thanks to having almost no influence -- his Ora 4 is actually quite good for Oratory if he chose to Advocate for himself), except for one problem: he isn't under any suspicion of corruption at all! He didn't hold any major office last Turn (or on any Turn so far as I know), and doesn't have any Concessions much less ones he has received profit from. (There are a few other ways to get suspicions of corruption, but none are active yet in the game.)

Actually, Fabius the Pont Max is the only Conservative senator who has any suspicion against him. It's either him; one of the Aristocrats; or no one this Turn. (By Contract you can't go after the other three Players this Turn.)

Tripoli will have to agree to send Aelius to Prosecute for you. His Ora 4 rating is a good choice.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 21, 2018, 08:37:07 PM
Here's a quick updated snapshot of the Aristocrat group:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/6489/agbtf0.jpg)

They're all under some suspicion, but only Cinc is under Major suspicion (having been a Consul last Turn).

They also reek of Influence, and have cash to burn for bribing extra votes from the Senate; and under the circumstances you can probably expect him to successfully appeal to one of those Ora 4 Conservative senators for Advocacy. Cinc is also popular enough that if he gambles on a Popular Appeal to add votes in his favor, it can't be fatal for him.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 22, 2018, 10:26:24 AM
It's US Thanksgiving Day, so I'll be out of pocket most (or all) of the day.

But I'll do a quick update here, that the Frog has decided to aim back at Fabius the PontMax again.

The Frog effectively declared his official Prosecution intention with his choice of Prosecutor as well as a target, which simply didn't count by choosing an invalid target; so by switching back to a valid target, Fabius has been officially chosen by the Censor for Prosecution, with Aelius as the proposed Prosecutor.

Tripoli needs to publicly agree to that, if so.

And meanwhile AzTank should be deciding whether Fabius will Advocate for himself, or choose someone else. This comes down to relative Oratory scores, and Fab only has 2, so I recommend finding someone else to Advocate for him.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 22, 2018, 04:35:20 PM
It's US Thanksgiving Day, so I'll be out of pocket most (or all) of the day.

But I'll do a quick update here, that the Frog has decided to aim back at Fabius the PontMax again.

The Frog effectively declared his official Prosecution intention with his choice of Prosecutor as well as a target, which simply didn't count by choosing an invalid target; so by switching back to a valid target, Fabius has been officially chosen by the Censor for Prosecution, with Aelius as the proposed Prosecutor.

Tripoli needs to publicly agree to that, if so.

And meanwhile AzTank should be deciding whether Fabius will Advocate for himself, or choose someone else. This comes down to relative Oratory scores, and Fab only has 2, so I recommend finding someone else to Advocate for him.

Sorry for the delay.  I've been recovering from a turkey-induced coma.  Aelius, while saddened by the apparent betrayal of Roman norms by the guilty, errr,  accused party (who of course, deserves the presumption of innocence and all the protections allowed by the arena, I mean courts....)  Well, in any case, Aelius reluctantly accepts the call  for his services in this sad affair.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 22, 2018, 05:49:44 PM
This game is just the best...  >:D

I'm assuming AzTank is still hors de turkey, or however the French spell it.

I'm actually more concerned about I.I., however, whom I'm not sure realizes the game is back on. Not that he's had any public choices to make, and maybe he's trying to maneuver behind backs with p-mails; or maybe he's just waiting to see what happens.  :(
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 22, 2018, 09:19:28 PM
AzTank confirms by chat that he will give the knight to Camillus (minions up to 2; Conservative normal vote tally up to 15; Cam's cash down 2 to 0), and defend with Spurius.

(Also I've seen p-mail confirmation that I.I. knows the game is running, and is caught up on events.)

That sets up the Trial! The Frog must start by calling a vote from all Factions.

We can be sure that the Plutocrats will be voting AGAINST acquittal, and that the Conservatives will be voting FOR acquittal. (If AzTank and/or the Frog want to specify some senators otherwise, that's fine, just let me know pronto! -- it is not necessary for ANY senator to vote one way instead of the other.)

The Conservatives' knight-activist ability doubles the votes of their minions when voting against any Proposition (the idea being to defend against harmful change), but this ability does NOT count when dealing with any other type of vote including Prosecutions. And even if it did, in this case he'd actually want to vote 'for' the result (acquittal) not 'against'.

So, assuming Conservatives vote 'for' and Plutocrats vote 'against', the votes will be 15 to 14 respectively, with a net Player vote so far of +1.

This does NOT yet count any cash spent by Players from senators' personal Treasuries (NOT from Faction Treasuries) as bribes for extra votes! AzTank and/or the Frog should let me know how much, if any, they intend to spend. So should other Players when they weigh in.

I happen to know already that Malize plans to vote AGAINST acquittal, so nominally his 18 votes will swing the current Net Player vote to -17!

Assuming Tripoli, having agreed to Prosecute, bloc-votes his senators, that will be another 14 votes AGAINST acquittal, so -31 currently.

This provisionally accounts for 4 of the 6 players, unless they intend to split votes (or Malize has changed his mind), and not counting any personal cash they want to spend on buying extra votes from the invisible senators.

Erax's activist abilities will be in effect, so if he votes to protect the PontMax he can bring 5 votes; or 7 votes to harm the PontMax. Also, if Erax's Flaminius musters his knights' activism against Fabius, and the Trial ends with Fabius' Conviction, then Flam will gain +2 Influence.

I.I.'s Aristocrats still have the largest total Influence, so their activist voting will be in effect. He can bring 17 votes either way, for or against Acquittal.


If Players need a quick snapshot of the personal Treasuries of their senators, this pre-Senate link is still valid (except that Camilius of the Conservatives no longer has his 2 Talents, those having been retroactively spent on his winning roll for another minion.) http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=22942.msg635290#msg635290
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 23, 2018, 07:08:12 AM
The Progressives vote against acquittal, with no talents for extra votes.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 23, 2018, 08:51:05 AM
Jason has correctly allocated my votes.  No talents committed
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 23, 2018, 09:17:44 AM
The Progressives vote against acquittal, with no talents for extra votes.

That's -7 votes, so the Net Player Vote is now -31 -7 = -38.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 23, 2018, 09:18:55 AM
The Frog sends a message by chat, which Larry could see so it counts as a public message which I'll repost here for his convenience:

Quote from: The Frog
I will spend in support of the prosecution.
I will match whatever Fabius spends and spend up to 3 more talents if I have them.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 23, 2018, 12:54:43 PM
The militarists will all vote as a block against acquittal.  From the count thus far, it looks like it will not require me to spend anything extra to secure a conviction.  If I am wrong on that, I will spend up to 3 talents to secure a conviction.   
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 23, 2018, 12:58:30 PM
Strictly speaking, it may not be possible to 'secure' a result either way, during the Faction Vote segment of the Trial. That's because there will always be at least one, maybe two, 2d6 rolls representing shifts in the minor senator votes not directly affected by the Players' senators and their contacts.

Factions for and against acquittal may be able to significantly weigh probabilities toward their preferred outcomes, however.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 23, 2018, 01:08:34 PM
Anyway, that validates the provisional net vote of -38 so far (against acquittal), with some clear instructions from the Frog about what to do if Fabius uses any of his personal cash to bribe votes. (I'm a bit unclear about where to take the Frog's own bribes from, but unless he gives me specific instructions I'll try to spread the expense out evenly among his senators.  O:-) )

Consequently, we're waiting for I.I.'s choice, and possibly for AzTank's choice about whether to add bribery or not (which he hasn't indicated yet).
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 24, 2018, 10:45:30 AM
The Aristocrats will not have the Pontifex Maximus slandered for a tenure that has seen nothing but prosperity and growth for the Republic. I vote for acquittal and spend 12 talents for the defence according to the following public contract:

Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 24, 2018, 06:19:55 PM
AzTank hasn't agreed to that contract publicly yet, so I won't process that yet.

AzTank sends a message by chat that as part of his voting he'll make a Popular Appeal. (This has to be done when the Accused's Faction sends in their votes, but with asynch there's some lag involved.) He has not yet chosen whether to spend cash on bribing votes yet.

He rolls 2d6...

[roll]2d6[/roll]
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 24, 2018, 06:33:09 PM
Oh. huh. We seem to have lost diceroll functionality in the move to a new host. Probably just hasn't been activated yet. {squinting} Nope, can't find the button for it anymore.

[dice]2d6[/dice]

Nope, not that either.

Oh well, I'll drop a note to the ad/mods and see if they know how to re-implement it.

Fortunately I have plenty of dice on our TTS gameboard. Unfortunately, he rolls a hard 4 (2+2). +2 Popularity = 6.

That's -4 votes on the Pop Appeal table.

Currently the Net Total Votes stands at -38 (not counting I.I. yet since AzTank hasn't agreed publicly). The Popular Appeal backfiring will make that -42. Fabius' Influence +13 will make that -29 against Acquittal so far.

AzTanks needs to decide if he's going to agree to I.I.'s proposed contract.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 25, 2018, 06:57:05 AM
Oh. huh. We seem to have lost diceroll functionality in the move to a new host. Probably just hasn't been activated yet. {squinting} Nope, can't find the button for it anymore.

[dice]2d6[/dice]

Nope, not that either.

Oh well, I'll drop a note to the ad/mods and see if they know how to re-implement it.

Fortunately I have plenty of dice on our TTS gameboard. Unfortunately, he rolls a hard 4 (2+2). +2 Popularity = 6.

That's -4 votes on the Pop Appeal table.

Currently the Net Total Votes stands at -38 (not counting I.I. yet since AzTank hasn't agreed publicly). The Popular Appeal backfiring will make that -42. Fabius' Influence +13 will make that -29 against Acquittal so far.

AzTanks needs to decide if he's going to agree to I.I.'s proposed contract.

This whole trial scenario is a bit reminiscent of this: https://youtu.be/zrzMhU_4m-g?t=6
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on November 25, 2018, 10:21:29 AM
AzTank hasn't agreed to that contract publicly yet, so I won't process that yet.

AzTank sends a message by chat that as part of his voting he'll make a Popular Appeal. (This has to be done when the Accused's Faction sends in their votes, but with asynch there's some lag involved.) He has not yet chosen whether to spend cash on bribing votes yet.

He rolls 2d6...

[roll]2d6[/roll]

I agree to the contract
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 25, 2018, 11:07:41 AM
Okay, I've left notecards about the Aristo-Conservation Contract on both Players' mats to help remind me of the terms. ;)

Time to resolve!

Although I've reminded him a couple of times that this is a thing he can do during this segment, AzTank has not stated that he will re-assign the priesthood off Fulvius (the Plutocrat Censor) to someone else. He could still do this if he survives, but we're entering final resolution so this option has passed until such time.

According to the Contract, Fabius must make Corny and Val priests asap. He can only make (or re-assign) a priesthood once per Turn, but can do so at any time (during the Senate Phase) so long as he's between actions. Since Fabius may die soon, he'll automatically resolve this condition per the Contract, and assign a priesthood to Cornelius of the Aristocrats, in the order requested (not knowing any more accurate preference.) Corneilus gains 1 influence (up to 15, new total 40), and the Aristocrats (per their ability) spawn another 1 Influence to be spent on either Cinc or Val.

Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 25, 2018, 11:23:19 AM
In prior p-mail correspondence, I can report that I.I. promised given the ratification of the Contract, that he would not only bloc-vote to Acquit Fabius, but would also spend all 12 of his senatorsí personal Treasuries. So Cincís and Valís treasuries go to zero.

I.I.ís normal vote tally is 12, but since the Aristocrats have the highest total Influence his 5 knights (per Aristo special Faction ability) are able to each bring another vote from the Senate, for a total of 17 votes. His bribery adds another 12 votes.

Tripoli set up a condition where he would add up to all his cash if necessary to secure a conviction, but all his cash wonít be enough to guarantee a conviction, so by his terms he doesnít spend it.

AzTank, according to the specific terms set up by the Frog for matching ďFabiusíĒ bribery, could spend all 6 of his personal cash against 5 matching cash from the Frog, for 1 extra vote, but it wouldnít make any difference to the final roll, so he doesnít spend for bribes. Neither then does the Frog; and everyone else has declined to spend on bribes already.

-38 Net Votes currently, +17 +12 = -9 Net Total Votes.

Final tally before the final Trial stage: -9 Net Total Faction Votes; -4 Popular Appeal backfire; +13 Fabiusí Influence; equals 0 Net Votes so far.

In the final stage, the Prosecutor Aelius brings -4 votes (from his Oratory) against Acquittal; and the Advocate Spurius Cassius brings +4 votes for Acquittal. Net Votes still 0 so far after final arguments.

The next post will resolve the first Trial of the Republic, and the life of Fabius Pontifex Maximus!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 25, 2018, 11:35:49 AM
In the final trial 2d6 roll, 7 equals no change, and totals above and below it equal 4 vote shifts, the maximum being 20 votes either way.

(This means under the current circumstances, if Fabius was entering the final voting stage with Net -21 votes against him, his Conviction would be secured. Tripoli would have spent up to all his personal cash to secure a Conviction, but he'd need 21 Talents to do so, and he doesn't have that much. Consequently, according to his conditions, he spends none of it on bribery, since he can't guarantee conviction doing so. Arguably he would have been locked out of adding any bribery votes at all, at the time he made the condition, since at that time it either would have looked definite for a secured conviction, being far below -21, or else technically impossible to secure a conviction yet. But I'm trying to be as fair as possible to all sides, so I did allow for the possibility of him adding more votes to secure a Conviction by spending his cash bribing at the last moment.)

Consequently, the current net 0 votes means that if Fabius rolls a total of 7 or higher, he'll be Acquitted.

I've dropped a note to the admins about re-installing the dice roller, since that would be REAAALLLY handy right now. But we don't have it yet, so I'll have to continue using umpire's dice on the board.

It comes down to the final roll of....

4
and
2

That's a 6. The remaining invisible senators ended up voting a net -4 against Acquittal.

Fabius is Convicted of Major Corruption by a net total of 4 votes.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 25, 2018, 11:50:56 AM
Since only one Major Prosecution is allowed per Turn, this ends the Prosecution segment of this Senate Phase. All Suspected Senators lose their suspicions. Presiding Magistrate duties go back to Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats.

Fabius of the Conservatives, the first Pontifex Maximus of the Republic, being convicted of major corruption, is put to death: the first casualty of Players against each other.

As only a family Senator, he loses all chits (even in the Conservative Faction); and not being the Faction Leader, his card goes to the Curia to stay until the Fabians raise a new scion to represent them in the Senate.

Conservative Normal Vote Tally goes down to 12. (Papís Ora 2 + 1 knight; Spurius Ora 4; Camís Ora 3 + 2 knights.)

Conservative Total Influence goes down to 10+6+3=19.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/70/pJeZRd.jpg)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 25, 2018, 12:07:35 PM
The Frog's Plutocrats, roughly in 3rd Place, have shifted the balance of power, leading a new coalition of Factions. For now.

Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats must now consider the next Mandatory Business: the Proposal for election of a new Pontifex Maximus, which takes new precedence over any other remaining Mandatory Business.

Meanwhile, although the Trial was lost, the terms of the Aristo-Conservation Contract still require AzTank's Conservatives to send 12 Talents from their Faction Treasury to the Aristocrat Treasury, sometime before the end of Turn 8. (It is of course impossible for Fabius to make Val a priest now, but the condition of that term is judged to be fulfilled, with Fabius having done his best by making Corny a priest before dying.)

The Conservatives do have 31 Talents in their Faction Treasury. They are not necessarily required to send 12 Talents from that immediately, but AzTank could do so at any time going forward. He can also spend his Faction cash as he sees fit from now until the end of Turn 8, but in order to ensure compliance with the public contract, I will not allow him to spend below 12 Talents.

If bad luck takes him below 12 Talents, that was the risk I.I. was taking. By the terms of the contract, I will effectively resolve it by reserving 12 Talents to be sent to the Aristo Faction Treasury at the end of Turn 8. If 12 Talents, by bad luck, are not in the Conservative Treasury at the end of Turn 8, I.I. gets all of what's available, and clears out this term of the Contract thereby.

AzTank can still pay the full 12 voluntarily at any time, starting now. Note, however, that any transfer of cash from Faction to Faction will necessarily be delayed in receipt until the Revenue Phase following the transfer action. (So I.I. will get resolution on his repay, no later than Revenue Phase of Turn 9.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 25, 2018, 12:18:40 PM
I should note, that literally any senator present in Rome (which is all senators this Turn) can be validly elected PontMax, regardless of any or no other offices already held.

The new PontMax will also continue to hold any current office(s) until the normal expiration. So a priest could be elected PontMax, and will still be a priest until death or until some PontMax re-assigns his priesthood. A Roman Consul can also be elected PontMax, and will remain a Consul until that office expires next Turn.

Since Censors can be re-elected each Turn (instead of needing someone new to be Censor), a senator could theoretically continue as both Censor and PontMax (and priest, if already one), until the end of his life, so long as he keeps getting re-elected as Censor...  ^-^

Whether the Frog will try to consolidate more power among his senators, or Propose the office as a reward for supporting his Prosecution, or perhaps Propose the office as a consolation to his new political enemies, remains to be seen....  :peace: \m/ :-"
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 25, 2018, 02:29:44 PM
Extra influence to Valerius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 25, 2018, 02:42:24 PM
Done: Val's influence goes up to 11; new total 41.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 25, 2018, 07:13:53 PM
Because of the conviction, Aelius (the prosecutor) gains Prior Consul and 7 Influence while Flaminius gains 2 Influence, right?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 25, 2018, 07:38:31 PM
Ah, yep! -- I'm new at Trials, too, so thanks for the catch!  :bd: :hide:

Aelius gains half the Influence lost by the Accused, which in this case is all his 13 influence due to dying, rounded up: 13/2 = 6.5 rounds up to a gain of 7 Influence. Thus up from 2 to 9; Militarist new total Influence 21.

Flaminius of the Progressives had activist knights bringing x2 votes to oppose the corruption of Fabius; thus his Conviction (per the Progressive special ability) gains 2 Influence for Flaminius, up from 3 to 5, new total up to 7.

Also! -- Fabius was a Prior Consul, and Aelius was not, so having won his Prosecution Aelius gains Prior Consul status. (Fabius would lose his, but he died anyway.) This essentially means Aelius has proven the legal acumen to be a valid candidate for Censor office himself, whereas one of Fabius' punishments for a Minor conviction would be to lose his Prior Consul status so that he would be temporarily barred from being elected and seek a revenge investigation against his Prosecutor.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 25, 2018, 08:36:08 PM
Now that that nasty bit of business is over...the Populists would like to put a motion on the forum floor for activating Tribunes...the Plebs need a voice!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 25, 2018, 09:35:30 PM
Having reviewed  the Sixth Turn Grand Convocation, I think I am free to nominate anyone I want for PontMax, so I will nominate my guy whose name is partially occluded in the pictures.  is it Bacilius?  or Acilius? Anyway, that's who I am proposing. 

If Malize will vote in favor, I will permit the motion for activating Tribunes to go forward.  (That is, assuming that he needs my support to get a vote taken on that motion. Does he have the power to initiate legislation, or is that my exclusive perogative?) 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 26, 2018, 12:36:14 AM
Having reviewed  the Sixth Turn Grand Convocation, I think I am free to nominate anyone I want for PontMax, so I will nominate my guy whose name is partially occluded in the pictures.  is it Bacilius?  or Acilius? Anyway, that's who I am proposing. 

If Malize will vote in favor, I will permit the motion for activating Tribunes to go forward.  (That is, assuming that he needs my support to get a vote taken on that motion. Does he have the power to initiate legislation, or is that my exclusive perogative?)

afaik I think anyone can propose new business in the forum(?)  I think...lol.

Anyway, if it requires you proposing it, then I will gladly exchange my votes on pont max for you proposing.   

if it doesn't require you proposing it, then I'll still be backing you at pont max in return for your votes for the tribune (it works out the same anyway, you won't be *not* backing something you propose for the forum, as I think there's a potential negative?)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 11:35:06 AM
Actually, only the PM can make Proposals for voting, and right now that's Fulvius of the Plutocrats.

Once the Pleb Revolt is settled, Tribunes will become unlocked (on the following Turn's Senate) and then any Player with a Tribune card can discard it to make a Proposal or Veto.

Normally the Pleb Revolt would be the next Mandatory Business, after the Prosecution segment, but first the Republic needs a new PontMax, so that has to be backtracked to settle first.

Having reviewed  the Sixth Turn Grand Convocation, I think I am free to nominate anyone I want for PontMax, so I will nominate my guy whose name is partially occluded in the pictures.  is it Bacilius?  or Acilius? Anyway, that's who I am proposing.

It's Acilius. He's your "new man" in the Faction. Don't know why his name would be partially occluded... oh, it's because he has a Talent sitting next to him name. My bad.

Yes, the 6thTurnGrandCon doesn't have anything to say about getting a new PontMax one way or another; and any senator in Rome (which is all of them right now) can be validly Proposed for the Office. So Acilius would be a valid Proposal.


The Proposal is formally made, Acilius of the Plutocrats for the new Pontifex Maximus For Life (however long that may be...  ^-^ ) A vote will be required. The Frog will need to either call a vote order, or allow Players to vote at will.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 11:40:22 AM
I'm at the office so I can't double-check the board yet, but I think the Plutocrats still have 14 votes, and I'm sure the Populists have 18 votes; and Malize has already stated he's willing to back Acilius if the Frog will propose in favor of resolving the Pleb Revolt next, which he has agreed to.

So provisionally that's 32 votes already FOR Acilius as the new PontMax4Life.

Potentially there are 13 votes (Conserv 11+2) plus 17 (Aristo 12+5) plus 14 (Militarist) plus 7 (Progs 5+2) =51 against.

And potentially another 17 (Aristo 12+5) plus 11 (Conserv) plus 14 (Mil) plus 5 (Progs) = 47 for.

This doesn't count personal Treasuries to buy votes, which might be a factor again.

Basically, if the Conservs, or Aristos, or Militarists join in, any one of them will be the swing majority for. (10 more votes 'for' will make the difference. Again, not counting bribes...)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 26, 2018, 12:23:08 PM
I'm at the office so I can't double-check the board yet, but I think the Plutocrats still have 14 votes, and I'm sure the Populists have 18 votes; and Malize has already stated he's willing to back Acilius if the Frog will propose in favor of resolving the Pleb Revolt next, which he has agreed to.

So provisionally that's 32 votes already FOR Acilius as the new PontMax4Life.

Potentially there are 13 votes (Conserv 11+2) plus 17 (Aristo 12+5) plus 14 (Militarist) plus 7 (Progs 5+2) =51 against.

And potentially another 17 (Aristo 12+5) plus 11 (Conserv) plus 14 (Mil) plus 5 (Progs) = 47 for.

This doesn't count personal Treasuries to buy votes, which might be a factor again.

Basically, if the Conservs, or Aristos, or Militarists join in, any one of them will be the swing majority for. (10 more votes 'for' will make the difference. Again, not counting bribes...)

The militarists will also back, in exchange for resolving the plebe revolt
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 26, 2018, 02:11:58 PM
The Aristocrats vote for.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 02:29:04 PM
Not back at the house yet to resolve, but I'm sure that this heavily lands Acilius as the new PontMax.

Next Mandatory Business is whether to solve the Plebian Revolt or not, and the Frog already declared he would do so, so unless he backs out after all then I'll treat that as the next Proposal: establish the Plebian Assembly (unlocking the Tribunes for next Turn, and discarding the Pleb revolt).

With Plutocrats (14), Populists (18), and Militarists (14) already signed on to concede the Pleb Revolt, that should be a majority. I'll have to resolve the Inf drop / Pop rise for Appius Claudius when I get home. (And adjust for Acilius of course.)

That should also finish Mandatory Business.

Valid and useful Other Business amounts to whether the Frog intends to have Appius Propose raising the remaining two Legions or not, before Proposing to send Manlius out (with X number of Legions) to.... um, I'll have to check which War, as per the Contract. (Raising the remaining Legions was NOT part of the Contract, so the Frog can Propose that or not. Strictly speaking he didn't Contract for how many he would send to whatever War it was with Manlius either...  ^-^ )

Meanwhile, if anyone has any Tribunes, don't get itchy yet: they can't be used until next Turn's Senate.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 26, 2018, 04:29:04 PM
Phyrric War
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 04:48:04 PM
^^ Thx!

Aciliusí Influence as the new PontMax goes up 4 to 9; bringing the Plutocrat total influence to 41 -- tying and thus deactivating the Aristocratsí activists. (He also gets the extra-cash-die for being PontMax. ;) )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 04:49:27 PM
The Frog validates by chat that he did intend to Propose discarding the Plebian Revolt, thus unlocking Tribune functionality; and as noted there are already enough votes to carry a majority. (Not that anyone other than the PM's player might want to not vote for it, since it effectively grants more power to all the players!) Appius sacrifices 2 Influence to discard the Event (down again to 15; Plutocrat total back down to 39, Aristos back in the lead again and activisting, which I declare to be a real word now. ;) ) But he gains 2 Pop (up to 2).

Having double-checked the expansion rules now that I've gotten back to the house, I see that Tribune functionality begins IMMEDIATELY! -- so anyone who already has a Tribune, you can play it at any time during this or any future Senate Phase.

This leads into a discussion of what Tribunes do, so I'll post that next.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 05:11:37 PM
Okay, here is a sample Tribune Intrigue Forum card which I copy-pasted from somewhere and will presently delete off the board.  ^-^

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4985/RdgW18.jpg)

The text is really quite explanatory, including the several exceptions to its usage.

Historically, Tribunes were supposed to be the bridge between the Plebian Assembly and the Senate, and stood for popular election. A senator could be a Tribune but anyone of the proper age could be. Some Statesmen later in the game will also effectively be Tribunes; and the PontMax is kind of a half-tribune since he can veto most Proposals once a Turn the way a Tribune can. When Statesmen are Tribunes, they function like having a permanent Tribune that instead of discarding after use is only tapped out for the Turn.

There is one Latin Era Tribune in the game, which since we've used up all the Latin Era cards you may deductively expect someone to be holding right now. It is equal in all respects to other Tribunes, and unlike the pre-Early Statesmen he will not be discarding at the start of the Early Era. (I don't recall if there are any Italian Era Tribunes per se, but if so they'll be equal in ability, too.)


For all practical purposes, any Player with a Tribune Intrigue card can make a Proposal just like the PM can -- at the expense of discarding your Tribune. You can also use this ability to interrupt the PM closing the Senate by Proposing something for a vote (which is the only way to interrupt closing the Senate for the Turn, by the way. Even assassination won't do that.)

Tribunes also allow their Players to veto Proposals or Prosecutions. A Presiding Magistrate's Player doesn't need a Tribune to make a Proposal of course, but he can use one to veto someone else's Proposal!

Note the condition as the card states: you can only veto a vote before or during your own Faction's voting. Once you vote, you're locked into your choice, win or lose.

That's it. They're quite simple really! And they hugely change the game's dynamics.  >:D
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 05:15:38 PM
Oh, forgot to mention: I went back to double-check who has any Tribunes face down. I've sent reminders to anyone who does -- like I said, you can expect at least one Tribune to be lurking on the fringes of a Faction ready to be played (the Latin Era Tribune), but I won't say if there are any more primed to go yet.

If you didn't receive a private message from me, you don't have one yet.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 05:18:07 PM
I think this catches me up, and finishes Mandatory Business.

Per his Contract, the Frog must eventually Propose sending Manlius to the Pyrrhic War with some number of Legions (unspecified by the Contract); but he should decide whether or not he's going to Propose Raising the 9th and/or 10th Legion before then, too.

Or, someone could Tribune that Proposal first -- though that seems a bit of a waste of a Tribune in this case!  ::)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 26, 2018, 05:21:55 PM
Incidentally, if anyone is unhappy with the Plutocrats concentrating so much political power: a Tribune can be used to Propose stripping the PontMax of his office! However, this vote uniquely requires more than 2/3 majority to pass.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 26, 2018, 06:51:28 PM
Wow.  Tribune cards look crazy useful.  This will indeed change the game dynamic.  I am totally into the idea of having them--they will prevent any one of us from having abusing the monopoly on initiating proposals.  It diffuses power, but makes influence more important.  And, yeah, I can see that they would make the game dynamics a lot more complicated.

My gmail is dmakman@gmail.com.  Can we all connect on google hangouts and make that for discussion and use this more for displaying the board? I think separating the two functions of discussion and updating the board, will make it easier to play. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 27, 2018, 09:16:39 AM
Regarding the legions, I say we raise both, it'll help minimize losses.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 27, 2018, 08:09:08 PM
Ok. I am proposing we raise two legions.  (Has the tribune proposal passed?) 

Vote in any order on this and on the tribune thing if it has not passed yet.  THen let me know what the next order of business is. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 27, 2018, 08:26:34 PM
Ok. I am proposing we raise two legions.  (Has the tribune proposal passed?) 

Vote in any order on this and on the tribune thing if it has not passed yet.  THen let me know what the next order of business is.

Yep, the Tribune thing passed. (I left a note back at the hangout when it did.  O:-) ) That's why Tribunes are a thing now. (Appius had to sacrifice a little Influence to do it, but he gained back as much Popularity.)


After this vote, pass or fail, you could try raising only one legion (if it fails); but otherwise the only thing remaining will be sending Manlius to War, which I can process automatically since you have a bunch of Contracted votes for it already. I'll only need to know from you how many Legions you want to send with Manny as part of your eventual Proposal on that. ;)

I'll drop a vote alert by p-mail to help expedite things. :)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 27, 2018, 09:36:56 PM
After this vote, pass or fail, you could try raising only one legion (if it fails); but otherwise the only thing remaining will be sending Manlius to War, which I can process automatically since you have a bunch of Contracted votes for it already. I'll only need to know from you how many Legions you want to send with Manny as part of your eventual Proposal on that. ;)
Hypothetically, could the Frog assign Manlius one legion to get him killed and still force his coalition partners to vote for the proposal?  ;)

If so, that's quite the loophole in the contract.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on November 28, 2018, 12:49:54 AM
Vote for the legions.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 06:17:57 AM
After this vote, pass or fail, you could try raising only one legion (if it fails); but otherwise the only thing remaining will be sending Manlius to War, which I can process automatically since you have a bunch of Contracted votes for it already. I'll only need to know from you how many Legions you want to send with Manny as part of your eventual Proposal on that. ;)
Hypothetically, could the Frog assign Manlius one legion to get him killed and still force his coalition partners to vote for the proposal?  ;)

If so, that's quite the loophole in the contract.

He absolutely could, yes!

Why he would do that, I have no idea. But I've been hinting that the loophole exists since y'all agreed to it. ;)

I should however also note, that assigning one Legion to Manlius is not likely to get him killed. Death chances for commanders in battle are directly proportionate to how many Legions they lost during particular distinct fights. Paradoxically, if he goes up and gets his one Legion slaughtered, he only has one chance to die, effectively one chance in however many chits are in the death bag. (One for each family in the game, plus some blanks, plus a couple of draw-2-more chits.) If he goes up and gets five Legions slaughtered, he has five chances to die (the last chance being a capture instead, if the War is still Active).

I'll want to double-check that with the rules soon. I don't recall a Force wipe being automatic death for its commander(s), but that does seem intuitively correct and the proper neurons may just not be firing.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 07:01:40 AM
AzTank sends in a p-mail that Conservatives will vote for the Legion Raise.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 28, 2018, 07:33:35 AM
Ok. I am proposing we raise two legions.  (Has the tribune proposal passed?) 

Vote in any order on this and on the tribune thing if it has not passed yet.  THen let me know what the next order of business is.

I'm a little behind the power curve on this one.  I vote in favor of the proposal to raise the 2 legions
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 08:12:57 AM
Passing through, let's see: Plutocrats, Progressives, Conservatives, Militarists, Populists -- I'm sure we've got an absolute majority even without a definite vote from the Aristocrats (though a very good question from I.I.!)

So, I'll process that this afternoon.

Next up then comes the Contracted Deployment. The Frog will only have to specify how many Legions he's sending.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 12:55:58 PM
The Frog sends by chat that he'll Propose as many Legions be sent as Tripoli wants.

I feel pretty safe in saying that would be "ALLLLL OFFF THEMMMMM!"  \m/ (Since he thought 8 was a little underpowered for his expedition and voted for 2 more.)

With the Contracted votes, this Proposal will automatically pass.

I'll have to double-check whether this fulfills all the conditions of this Contract, or if there are others lingering forward.

This will probably end the Senate Phase, too, as no other useful Proposals remain (unless there's a conspiracy with enough clout to try stripping the new PontMax! -- but under the circumstances that seems unlikely, for this Turn anyway. ;) )


Consequently, I should be processing the next phases automatically for a while tonight and reporting results.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 28, 2018, 03:36:45 PM
Since it is a strength 7 war, I would like all of 'em for the Pyrrhic war  I think we can hold off prosecuting the other war for one turn, at the cost of some unrest.  Am I correct on this, or is there a mininimum number of legions we would need for the second war (whose name escapes me)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 05:24:58 PM
I'm not sure what you're asking, but if a War doesn't get attacked it doesn't count as Prosecuted; and I seem to recall reading in the rules that if attacking it leads to so many Legion casualties that there are fewer Legions at the War than its basic Land Strength (not counting other factors which might be on the enemy's side of the War, none of which have unlocked yet) then even attacking it doesn't count as Prosecuting it.

(This is a subtle point that I might have missed in one of the Republic's earliest battles, when Cinc lost all but one of his Legions: he had to have dropped below the Land Strength of the War, none of which are less than 2, and so the War should not have been counted as Prosecuted. But this is something I'll be rechecking on future Wars when Forces have less than minimal strength.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 28, 2018, 07:06:18 PM
I just wanted to make sure I understood the mechanics.  It looks like we can not send any legions to the second latin war, leaving it unprosecuted at a cost of 1 unrest next turn (rule 1.10.9).  If hypothetically all legions were to go to the Pyrrhic  war,  the Roman combat value would be 10 (#legions) + 8 (Manlius' military skill).  (Quick note: are any legions veteran?  If so, that would add 1 per veteran legion) v. a strength 7 war, ie a difference of 11.  On the CRT, that means a die roll of anything other than "snake eyes" would be a victory, and there would be  a 72% of having no losses at all.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 07:18:53 PM
That's all correct. No Veterans yet: veteran Legions don't unlock until the Early Provincial Era.


Yokai! -- let's get to it! Having allowed plenty of time for anyone to throw assassinations or whatnot  ^-^, and with nothing else useful to Propose, I judge the Senate Phase to be automatically concluded.

Having looked over the SIXTH TURN GRAND CONVOCATION thoroughly, I judge all its terms to have been fulfilled, and the Contract to now expire. (Note that the Aristo-Conservation Contract must still run for at least three more Turns, though.)

I don't think there are any more personal statistics to adjust, so off Manlius goes to attack the Pyrrhic War!


(An ad/mod, Jarhead if I recall correctly, or if not him then it was JudgeDredd -- my neurons get their nicknames mixed up in my memory frequently -- has promised to re-install the dice rolling module; but that hasn't happened yet so I'll still be using TTS dice and reporting the results. As Tripoli has calculated, it should be a slaughterous curbstomp.  O0 )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 08:04:03 PM
Rome's Talents drop 20 to 106, by the way, in Raising the 9th and 10th Legions.

Manlius leaves Rome with all 10 Legions; the Militarist Total Influence goes down 8 to 13, and the vote tally goes down 5 to 9.

Snapshot of the Manly One at war with his Legions:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2261/OQoT27.jpg)


He's still a Military Statesman, so still has those bonuses to his Mil score; and still has his Concession. I just left those markers back home for my convenience in moving things around.

Note that he's still Faction Leader despite being out of Rome at War! -- if he dies, he'll lose all his "pieces" except that one, and his family card will bounce back to Tripoli immediately from the Curia. (He'll still collect his Concession income while at War, too, in case something happens to delay him here.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 08:13:02 PM
TURN SIX -- COMBAT PHASE
------------------------

Field Consul Manlius vs the Pyrrhic War!
Manly Legions: 10
Manly Headquarters: 8
Warís Land Strength: -7
DRM = +11

3d6 = 10 (not a D/S result, yay!) + 11 DRM = 21

That's 18 or more, so total victory, no losses!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 08:49:07 PM
(This was so much of a slaughter, that I had John Carpenter's "Halloween Triumphant" running in the background while resolving the Phase...)



(The mask pulses in 3D if you watch carefully. Or too much...  >:D )

Unrest -1, down to 2. Spoils = 10 Talents, so Roman Treasury up 10 to 116. The Pyhhric War discards.

No Enemy Leader (Pyrrhus having died before the War started), so no Spolia Opima yet! Manlius gains half the Warís Land strength, rounded up, so 4 + 1 (for Militarist special ability) = 5 Pop (up from 0 to 5) and 5 Influence (up from 8 to 13). Manlius goes back to Rome: total votes back up 5 to 14; total influence back up 13 to 26! All ten Legions return to Active.

With all fights done, the 2nd Latin War moves to Unprosecuted.

This ends the Combat Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 28, 2018, 08:55:50 PM
TURN SIX -- Revolution Phase
----------------------------
No rebellions possible yet.
No one needs to discard down to 5 cards or less.

No one has a Statesman or Concession which can be validly played (I double checked). And that ends the Turn!

It's bedtime here for me, so I'll start processing Turn Seven tomorrow afternoon or evening, with the Mortality Phase; the first segment of the Revenue Phase; and a new batch of snapshots for the status quo.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on November 29, 2018, 07:04:57 AM
Also, one legion becomes veteran. (Rule 1.10.5 ) ("One Legion from among the survivors of a Land Battle that is a Stalemate, Standoff, or Victory is transformed into a Veteran Legion by flipping it to its Veteran side).  Here's a question:  The rule also provides that the "Legion Allegiance marker is placed on the Commanderís card "  I'm really not interested in having any legions with allegiance to Manlius.  Is it possible for me to voluntarily give up the legions' allegiance?  I would think so, as this would be similar to the historical Cincinatus  (or George Washington) turning back to civilian life after a war.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on November 29, 2018, 11:34:43 AM
I think Veterans are unlocked only in the next era.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 29, 2018, 12:10:18 PM
Veteran generation starts after the pre-Early Eras end. During "Birth of the Republic" no Veteran Legions can be created.

That wasn't even my rule. ;) But I agree with it for balancing purposes.

Here's a question:  The rule also provides that the "Legion Allegiance marker is placed on the Commanderís card "  I'm really not interested in having any legions with allegiance to Manlius.  Is it possible for me to voluntarily give up the legions' allegiance?  I would think so, as this would be similar to the historical Cincinatus  (or George Washington) turning back to civilian life after a war.

Sorrrrt of. The rule on this is bound up with the rules on declaring or refusing to rebel against the Senate, which also a functionality that unlocks in the next Era. (That one is my house rule, since rebellion was kept in Birth of the Republic in case Players wanted to make it a game to itself instead of a prequel to the main game. However, rebellion to kingship against the Senate was so sharply watched during the period of Italian expansion that senators were often executed on the flimsiest charges of conspiring to overthrow the Republic and institute a monarchy. And for the 'tutorial' purpose of Latin/Italian Era prologues, I decided it was better gameplay and also more historically accurate to hold off the Rebellion functionality until the Early Era.)


The process works like this: if this fight had happened in the Early Provincial Era (or later), Manlius would have returned to your mat still carrying the Legions, one of which would have become a Veteran. (I can't recall if I randomized this or decided it would just be the oldest available Legion, i.e. the one with the lowest number not yet a Veteran.) He would have been given the loyalty chit for the Vet Legion, too.

During the Revolution Phase, Players decide whether they are going to rebel against the Senate or not. Players considering rebellion would poll the non-Veteran Legions to see which of them would agree to join, which is allowed before making a decision.

A returning Victorious Commander, like Manlius, would have a big advantage about this, because he would have first crack at polling the Legions returning with him. (I'm at the office and working from memory so I may have the details a little off, but I'm sure this is the gist.)

Also, a rebelling senator could be assured at being joined by any and all Veteran Legions whose loyalty chit he's holding!

Assuming you don't rebel during the Revolution Phase, the Legions go back to the Active Pool, with any Vet Legions joining a special slot reserved for them. Henceforth, they can be assigned by the Senate to any War, just like any other Legion. However, if Manlius (for example) decided to rebel against the Senate later, he could still call upon his loyalty-chit Vets and they would defect to him automatically.

Starting in the following Turn, during the Forum Phase (if I recall correctly), you would have the option for Manlius to retire any or all of the Vet Legions loyal to him: the ones whose loyalty chits he is holding. (Obviously this is also true for any Player with any number of his senators holding loyalty chits.) Manlius doesn't have to do that on the first Turn following -- he can do it on any following Forum Phase (or whatever Phase it is, but it's either the Forum Phase or the Revenue Phase.)

But if Manlius (for our example) turned in his loyalty chit for that Veteran Legion, then the Vet Legion would be placed back in the Force Pool as a Vet, and Manlius would now flip over his loyalty chit granting him a little extra Popularity and (if I recall correctly) Oratory.

The Senate can still call this Legion out of retirement, but only if no other Legions remain in the Force Pool; and if they do then it comes back as a non-Veteran: the Vet Legion would go from the Force Pool back into the Veteran bag, and its normal Legion chit would go to the Active Pool. (They're out of practice.) I'd have to check to see if they would still have tacit loyalty to Manlius or not, i.e. whether he still keeps his flipped loyalty chit and thus his extra stat bonuses. Possibly he does but only if he didn't vote for them to come out of retirement.

If Manlius himself calls them up again, then he definitely loses his extra stat chit, but I'd have to check whether they come back as Vets or just a normal (now out of practice) Legion.

If the current Manlius dies, then his loyalty chit goes back into the loyalty-chit bag, and the Vet Legion in the Force Pool (or off in a special retirement pool perhaps) gets replaced with its normal Legion status in the Force Pool, effectively resetting it completely.


Again, I'll need to check the rules when I get home, to dial in the details there, but that's pretty close and should get the gist of it.

The short version is that as long as you refuse to rebel against the Republic when you're returning to Rome after a Victory, then the Vets can be given by the Senate to any senator as Force Commander, or sent to a Province for a Garrison for that matter. But your senator still holds their loyalty. This is important even if Manlius never plans to rebel against the Senate, because it prevents Julius over there (as an historically pertinent example ;) ) from even trying to call upon them to rebel against the Republic!

(Speaking of Julius your Militarist senator...  :coolsmiley: When a Player rebels, he can decide how many senators in his Faction will join the rebellion. Not all of them have to, but everyone who does will contribute any mobile forces they govern at their Province -- at least the provincial militias plus I think also any Garrison, or at least try to roll for their allegiance -- plus any Veteran Legions they can call on.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 29, 2018, 02:11:20 PM
This is a very intricate game.  Thanks for doing so much work to hold it together. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 29, 2018, 05:36:36 PM
Y'all are welcome, and thank you all for letting me experiment on you, mua ha ha ha haaa! --- wait, did I say that out loud?^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hplay the game vicariously through you. (Phew, that sounds better.)

But yeah, the game is going to get more intricate as it goes. This is why I figured there needed to be a non-playing umpire or gamemaster, and also a progressing tutorial (which the Birth of the Republic fan expansion serves for nicely).

Clarifying some Veteran rules already mentioned (there are more such rules in the rules, but I was trying to stick with the rules pertinent to Tripoli's question): retired Veteran Legions can be recalled by Tribune Proposal with a successful vote, but only if no other Legions remain in the Force Pool; or they can be recalled at will by a Dictator or by either Consul (Roman or Field) at any time during the Senate. When recalled this way, they do remain Veterans; but regardless of how they are recalled, their loyalty to whichever senator they became Veterans under is sacrificed (and he loses the Pop/Ora bonus). This disconnects them permanently from loyalty to any senator henceforth (as far as I can tell), which also means they can't be retired again. Recalling them to Active service costs 10 Talents, just like Raising a Legion from the Force Pool, but the Republic only pays it from a vote to Raise them. If they are Raised by a Consular or Dictatorial fiat, then the senator raising them must pay the cost from his personal Treasury, with any difference made up by his Faction's Treasury. If that isn't enough, they can't be Raised by that Officer's authoritative recall.


According to my notes, I did decide that the oldest non-Vet of a non-defeated battle would become a Veteran Legion (with some variations in the case of a Civil War).


The only Players who can validly Rebel during the Revolution Phase are ones with a Victorious returning Commander, or with Governors of a Province which has Garrison Legions and/or Provincial militia. This simplifies the question of which units might follow them in rebellion. Veterans will always defect from an army to follow whichever senator controls their allegiance chit, with the subtle consequence that a PlayerX might decide to let PlayerY dice for using X's Vet Legion being commanded currently by Y, and then X could later yank his Vet Legion out from under Y at an opportune moment! (The political screwery in this game, is just boggling...  :smitten: )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 29, 2018, 06:16:42 PM
TURN SEVEN -- MORTALITY PHASE
-----------------------------

No Immanent Wars to Activate yet.

After thoroughly shuffling, Family #10 is drawn from the Death Bag -- much to the grief of the Populist Faction, and to the Republic as a whole! The immensely Popular Statesman Lucius Junius Brutus, the first Statesman of the Republic (though in this game not the first assigned to a Faction), has died. Though he would have liked to fight in the first Latin War, and held strong Military skill, his Popularity rested in the Civic Arts: primarily in his sponsorship of the first Circus Maximus of the Republic, as well as aiding Aurelius in organizing a Gladiatorial honorarium.

Brutus thus does not survive to ďretireĒ at the end of the Italian Era, and so also his preparations to train a Junian to inherit from him have not come to fruition. His statistic buffs are deleted, and his card permanently discards. The Junius family Senator card goes to the Curia.

This is a hideous blow for the Populist Faction, which only had two senators among its chief representatives so far. But there is a little good news. The Juniads are a politically active family already -- his family card was under Brutus -- and Malize made Brutus his Faction Leader. Consequently, the Juniads rapidly promoted one of their scions as the new patrician of the family, and ensured his senatorial seat, so that they would not risk losing Leadership of the Faction: the Junius family Senator returns directly and immediately to Malize from the Curia, as the new Faction Leader.

Still, itís a grievous blow. The freshly risen Juniad only has a Mil 1; Ora 2; Loy 8; and Inf 3. The Factionís Vote tally has divided by half, down to only 9. And their total Influence has dropped to 6.

This ends the Mortality Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 29, 2018, 07:20:29 PM
TURN SEVEN -- REVENUE PHASE
---------------------------

Segment one, the Faction incomes:

I.I.ís Aristocrats start with 6 Faction cash; +0 Personal cash; +3 +2 senator incomes; +5 knight incomes; +2 +2 Tax Farmings; +3 Harbor Fees
= new total 23 Faction cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/238/sE6rFK.jpg)

Tripoliís Militarists start with 15 Faction cash; +15 Personal cash; +3 +2 senator incomes; +5 knight incomes; +2 +2 Tax Farmings
= new total 44 Faction cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9562/69xjJd.jpg)

The Frogís Plutocrats start with 0 Faction cash; 18 Personal cash; +5 (Plutocrat ability) +2 senator incomes; (+3 +2) x2 (Faction ability) knight incomes; 1d6 roll = 6 PontMax income; +0 Concessions
= new total 41 Faction cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7758/VPIGXM.jpg)

AzTankís Conservatives start with 31 Faction cash; +4 Personal cash; +3 +2 senator incomes; +3 knight incomes; +0 Concessions
= new total 43 Faction cash.
(He is required to keep a minimum reserve of 12 Talents in Faction cash this Turn, in accordance with the Aristo-Conservation Contract. He may transfer 12 Talents to the Aristocrats at any time to fulfill this part of his Contract. If he does so during the Revenue Phase, the cash will arrive in I.I.ís Faction Treasury immediately.)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5163/euJRx5.jpg)

Malizeís Populists start with 4 Faction cash; +0 Personal cash; +3 +1 senator incomes; +2 knight incomes; +3 Mining management
= new Faction Total 9 cash. THIRTEEN cash!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/3710/fBylKN.jpg)

Eraxís Progressives start with 2 Faction cash; +15 Personal cash; +3 +1 senator incomes; +2 knight incomes; +2 +2 Tax Farmings
= new Faction Total 27 cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/5925/hQt16s.jpg)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 29, 2018, 07:21:33 PM
All Concessions trigger minor corruptions as normal.

Players may now distribute their Faction cash, and choose whether one or more of their senators will donate to the Republicís Treasury. As a reminder, each senator earns 1 influence if giving 10 to 24 talents; 3 Influence if 25 to 49 talents.

(Rome currently has 116 Talents, with a coming income of 40 more Talents and 10 Legions x -2 Talents upkeep, also another -10 for the ongoing 2nd Latin War.)

Players should also plan forward for persuading knights (5 Talents gets an automatic knight); Sponsoring Games (7, 11, or 18 Talents buys 1, 2, or 3 Popularity with equivalent Unrest reductions); and bribing or counter-bribing any new family Senators who may arrive in the Curia (from personal or from Faction Treasuries respectively).
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 29, 2018, 07:26:23 PM
I will give 25 to Acilius, 6 to the other two senators, and leave the rest in faction cash.  Acilius will donate all 25 and thereby get the 3 influence. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on November 30, 2018, 11:41:59 AM
PS: My condolences to the populists for their loss.  Let us know if there is anything we can do to help in your time of need. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on November 30, 2018, 02:17:39 PM
5 to Valerius, 10 to Cornelius, 2 to Cincinnatus.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on November 30, 2018, 03:46:07 PM
Plutocrats and Aristocrats processed.

Republic cash up 25 to 141, along the way, thanks to Acilius, who gained 3 Influence for his donation (Plutocrat total up to 41 -- which ties with the Aristocrats currently, deactivating their activist-knight ability.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 01, 2018, 03:27:07 AM
17 on Flaminius, 8 on Plautius. To speed things along, if I'm not here for the Forum Phase Plautius will spend 3 on a Knight roll.

As I understand the setup, Fabius will not be up for persuasion this turn but we still have some senator cards lurking in the Era Deck, right?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 01, 2018, 04:44:11 AM
5 to Julius, 25 to Aelius, the rest (14)  to faction cash. Julius buys a knight, Aelius donates the 25 to the treasury for the +3 influence
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 01, 2018, 06:58:41 AM
As I understand the setup, Fabius will not be up for persuasion this turn but we still have some senator cards lurking in the Era Deck, right?

I haven't looked recently -- one or two were dealt out to you when you joined, actually! Then we caught up with the next one last Turn. There are probably a couple more in the remaining 11 cards, though we'll have shifted the last cards to the start of the Early Provincial Era sometime in the final 6.

This is a point on which the prologue/tutorial Eras suffer: all the families in the game are numbered, and they all start in the "Early" Era (because that's how the game was originally designed), so to introduce new families would require giving them numbers beyond 30. But that would make them 'later' in the emergence of families than the Late Provincial Era! -- and the game has mechanics built around how relatively old families are. (The most important such mechanic being the ultimate tie-breaker: if all else fails, the Player with the oldest family involved in the dispute, i.e. the lowest family number, wins the tie.)

Consequently, the Birth of the Republic designer had to spread Early Era family Senators through the two prologue Eras, while also leaving some for the Early Era itself. This naturally lowers their "density" of emergence in any one Era. He compensated a little by finding a few historical characters who could show up before their families became otherwise very politically important, and making them pre-Early Statesmen. (I'm not where I can verify right now, but I seem to recall AzTank having one of those from family #24, which won't show up until the Middle Era.)

I haven't gone into details about this because I didn't want preliminary expectations of the game to color strategies. But...

: show
as noted in the "Sabrerules" game flowchart I created (which needs a new update, though not on this topic, the most recent edition posted in the Infothread being Oct 5th, note to self... ;) ), we aren't going to see families #19 or #20, the final Early Families, until sometime in the Early Era, and possibly not until the transition into the Middle Era.

In effect the other 18 families got dispersed like this: #1 thru #8 got randomly dealt out to the first four players (I.I., Tripoli, the Frog, and AzTank). The remaining families from #9 through #18 got randomly shuffled, and then half of those (= 5 families) were dealt out face down and got shuffled into the Latin Era. Those are now all out on the board, of course.

The remaining 5 shuffled pre-#19 families got shuffled into the Italian Era. The first one of those (maybe two, I'm not where I can check my notes, but I think it was only one) was dealt out to you (Erax) when you joined, because there weren't any more family Senators remaining in the Latin Era. (Your other starting Senator was the last one in the Latin Era, or the 2nd one in the Italian; I seem to recall the former.)

We've had one new family show up since starting the Italian Era, the Aelians, picked up by Tripoli.

By deduction, that means two or three (I think probably three) families should be in the remaining 11 cards. But there's about a 50/50 chance that one or more of these ended up in the final 6 cards, and so will transfer forward into the start of the Early Era Deck with families #19 and #20.

This also means that under no circumstances will we be seeing more than 20 family Senators until after the start of the Middle Era -- though we may see one or two more Statesmen popping in before their families do. But I think I recall that such Statesmen, who show up an Era or two before their families, and so act like temporary families, are restricted to the pre-Early decks. (This is why it's not really a good idea for AzTank to give chits to Spurius over there: his family can't possibly show up until the Middle or maybe even the start of the Late Era, and so he can't possibly pass them down when he retires, which will surely be either this or next Turn! -- there's a decent chance we'll trigger the Early Era late in the coming Forum Phase.)


(I've hidden this information behind the spoiler tag in case some Players don't want to know how the family sorting works through the Early Era.)

Now, that doesn't mean the families are locked into their Factions, necessarily! For example, when y'all executed Fabius the Pont Max, his family card went to the Curia, from which the Fabians will randomly respawn into the Forum like a newly drawn family Senator. (This chance happens during the Population Phase, just before the Senate opens.) At that point Players will have an opportunity (during any subsequent Forum Phases) to Persuade the new Fabian Senator to join your Faction. The more families are active already, the more chance an active family will be drawn from the death bag. (The Progressives themselves are lagging behind partly due to the bad luck of this happening twice with Flaminius! -- who was fortunately the Faction Leader and so whose new Senator bounced right back to your Faction after dumping his chits.)

And Players might start using their high-influence senators, perhaps with lots of personal cash, to Persuade away senators from other Players! -- which is horribly competitive and kind of evil, but fully legal. ;)


Anyway, I'll process yours and Tripoli's once I get back from work today. (Seasonal overtime is in full open throttle.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 01, 2018, 07:30:34 AM
AzTank sends by chat that he'll give 2 to each of his guys.

This leaves only Malize to distribute.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 01, 2018, 09:34:36 AM
Malize should have 13 cash to distribute, by the way.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 01, 2018, 12:52:37 PM
Double-checked and validated! -- thanks!

Can't fix the snapshot yet, but I've fixed the print entry. Will be back home soon.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 01, 2018, 01:56:25 PM
Malize's mat now fixed:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1603/Flx3Pc.jpg)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 02, 2018, 08:23:03 AM
Sorry all, busy !

7 to Aurelius for games in honor of Brutus
2 to junius for knight
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 02, 2018, 08:59:44 AM
No problem, that's the big advantage to asynch games!

Were you intending to keep 4? I only ask because I had accidentally left 4 out of your original tally for an incorrect total of 9, and I didn't want you to think you couldn't buy an automatic knight. (Which would be 7 for Aurelius' games; 5 to Junius for a definite knight; and 2 kept over.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 02, 2018, 09:09:36 AM
Keeping in mind he might adjust that post-hoc for the Forum Phase later, that finishes segment 2.

Segment 3, Republic Income: 166 starting cash; +40 normal income; -10 2nd Latin War; -20 for ten Active Legions; no Land Bills; no specials = new Republic Total 176 talentons!  <:-)

(By comparison if y'all hadn't had four Allied Enthusiasms so far, you'd be at 76 Talentons. Or possibly much worse, since there would have been some other random Events instead.  ^-^ )

This ends the Revenue Phase for Turn Seven. Forum Phase starts next!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 02, 2018, 09:18:24 AM
TURN SEVEN -- FORUM PHASE
-------------------------

Dice functionality isnít back yet for the Grogheads forum (though Iíve started a planned twice-monthly request reminder yesterday. ;) ) So Iíll have to roll Ďmanuallyí on the board.

The two Drought cards are removed from the Forum, and wonít be replaced (since the Pleb Revolt was settled last turn). Spolia Opima remains.

The highest ranking officer in Rome is the Roman Consul Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats, so the Frog will get the first Ďroundí.

The Plutocrats roll 7, a random Event. 3d6 total of 5 is a Drought. This will add a point of Unrest in the next Phase. Good thing yíall settled the Pleb Revolt last Turn!

I havenít received instructions yet from the Frog about which senator wants to try for a knight and how much heíll spend doing so. (Or about whether heíll try to persuade away someone elseís senator!)

So I'll pause here until I receive instructions.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 02, 2018, 09:31:36 AM
No problem, that's the big advantage to asynch games!

Were you intending to keep 4? I only ask because I had accidentally left 4 out of your original tally for an incorrect total of 9, and I didn't want you to think you couldn't buy an automatic knight. (Which would be 7 for Aurelius' games; 5 to Junius for a definite knight; and 2 kept over.)

Yeah keep the remainder.  2 seems a decent gamble
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 02, 2018, 05:35:46 PM
The Frog sends by Hangout chat: Appius will try for a Knight and will spend as much cash as he has to get one, up to the amount that maximizes his chance to get one. No other actions.

Appius pays 5 of his 6 cash for an automatic 4th knight. Total votes up to 15.

The Conservatives roll 5+5=10, so draw a Scenario card. Itís a red-text Faction card, which Iíve sent him a p-mail about. Nothing AzTank can afford would affect anyone else on the board so, while he still should tell me about his knight persuasion attempt, I'll continue on.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 02, 2018, 06:05:54 PM
The Populists roll 5+6=11, so draw a card. The Calpurnicus family sends their first scion to the Senate!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1973/D9eldJ.jpg)

Malize's best persuader would be Aurelius, but the chances are so poor as to be easily made impossible by other Players counter-bribing. 3 Ora + 3 Inf -9 Loyalty = -3. Aure would have to spend 5 of his 7 personal cash just to get the adjusted base number up to 2, the minimum possible win on a 2d6 (i.e. 1 chance in 12). All 7 cash would still only be a 4 or less to win.

I am provisionally assuming then that Malize's original plan continues: Aurelius spends all 7 cash for some level-1 games in honor of the departed Brutus. Unrest goes down 1 to 1. Aurís Pop goes up 1 to 3. The Populist special ability spawns another 1 Pop for Junius, up to 1. Junius spends all 2 cash to gamble for a knight, normally 6-2=4 or more on a 1d6 to win -- but he rolls a 1.  :'( New vote tally goes up 2 Popularity (by Populist special ability) to 11.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 02, 2018, 06:25:31 PM
The Progressives roll 3+2=5 so draw a card. It's a red-text Faction card, so he draws it to his hand. I've sent him a p-mail about it.

Plautius sacrifices 2 of his 8 cash to roll for a knight, so 4 or more on a 1d6: but he also rolls a 1.  :'(

Erax's Flaminius has some plausible options on Persuading a senator, so I'll pause here to let Erax ponder strategy.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 02, 2018, 06:39:47 PM
Let me add that if anyone is plotting (by which I mean I.I. or Tripoli, who will be the last round this Turn) to try persuading a senator, and wants to set up conditions and instructions for me to process automatically, send me a p-mail.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 03, 2018, 07:32:03 AM
I will definitely Persuade Calpurnicus but I need to check some stuff, give me an hour or so.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 03, 2018, 08:51:14 AM
OK, I'll spend my 'secret persuasion card' and Flaminius will spend 11 Talents (the most I can spend that still improves my chances) to try to persuade Calpurnicus.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 11:52:13 AM
Dice roller has not returned to the forum, so I'll have to wait until around 5pm this afternoon my time (about 4 hours from now).
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 04:40:11 PM
Resolving! -- Erax plays his hidden "Blackmail" Intrigue card to the discard pile.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7742/i3T3da.jpg)

This is a cross-bolt that should make his opponents glad he spent it now, because he could have trolled an opponent awfully hard with it by setting up a situation where if he won then he got your senator, but if he lost then your senator lost 2d6 Pop and Influence! (I'm unsure if the rules specify one or two separate rolls for that loss.)

Having preliminarily nixed the possibility of counterbribing him, Flaminius spends 11 Talents for the maximum chance to persuade Calpurnicus: 9 or less to win on a 2d6. He rolls 3 and a 6 = 9! -- cruising just under the edge of an automatic loss, but he picks up the Senator! Normal vote tally up to 7; total Influence up to 9. Cal brings his new personal Treasury of 11 cash with him.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 04:46:28 PM
Backtracking, AzTank specifies (by p-mail) that heís going to have Spurius be who tries for the knight, sacrificing both his Talents. That means a 4 or greater on a 1d6 will win... and he rolls a 4! Thatís Spuriusí first minion, and the Faction normal vote tally goes up to 13.

AzTank also chooses to fulfill his Contracted payment now by sending 12 cash from his Faction Treasury to the Aristocrat Treasury. Since this isnít the Revenue Phase, however, the Talents will be delayed arriving until next Turnís income.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 05:01:20 PM
I.I.ís Aristocrats roll 5+1=6, so not a random event, and draws a red-text Faction card to his hand face down. I have sent him a p-mail about the card already.

Since I don't have any instructions (I think?) from I.I. yet, I'll pause here.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 05:04:47 PM
To clarify a point some Players may be wondering about: there are 7 cards remaining in the Italian Era, and only Tripoli remains (to possibly draw it I mean. I.I. still has to make Faction choices this Turn.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 03, 2018, 05:10:12 PM
Valerius will dump 5 on a knight.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 03, 2018, 05:31:24 PM
Also Plautius was going to spend 3 on a knight.

And a random question: if the new Senator hadn't been scooped up by anyone, could he have died if his mortality chit came up next turn? The rules say Senators 'in play' can die, but I'm not sure if an unaligned Senator in the Forum counts as in play or not.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 05:45:01 PM
Opps! -- I got distracted by the huge win of Calpurnicus!

Plautius of the Progressives sacrifices 3 of his 6 cash to roll for a knight, needing a 3 or better on a 1d6 -- and rolls a 4, gaining his first minion. Normal vote tally up to 8.

Valerius sacrifices all 5 of his Talents for an automatic 2nd minion. Normal vote tally up to 13.

Tripoliís Militarists roll 5+5=10, not a random Event, and he draws the Quinctian family (#18) to the Forum! In effect this means that Cincinnatus of the Aristocrats has survived long enough (perhaps with some Juniors in there quietly inheriting his training) for his family more generally to become politically important. Consequently, I.I. automatically picks up this card to place under Cinc! -- if Cincinnatus lives long enough to retire (which is practically certain at this point) then, being a pre-Early Statesman, heíll pass down all his pieces to the family Senator.

Per prior instructions, Julius of the Militarists sacrifices all 5 of his cash for a 3rd headquarters minion, bumping his Military skill to 7 (per Militarist special ability). Vote tally goes to 15.

This ends the Forum Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 06:00:04 PM
TURN SEVEN -- POPULATION PHASE
------------------------------

Time to get ready for the Senate!

All senators with PontMax and above get Major Marker. (In effect this is all three Plutocrat senators plus Manlius of the Militarists.)

No threatened Concessions yet, nor any destroyed Concessions in the Curia; nor any Enemy Leaders.

There is a family Senator in the Curia, however, waiting to respawn! Normally this happens on a 1d6 >=5, but as long as Statesman Appius is active (which wonít be for much longer) then the roll only needs to be >=3. The Fabians roll a 1, however, so are unable to promote a scion this Turn.

Public Unrest is at level 1, +1 for the Unprosecuted 2nd Latin War, +1 for the Drought. New Unrest = 3.

The Highest Ranking Available Officer is Roman Consul Statesman Appius Claudius of the Plutocrats (soon to retire). He opens the Senate with this Turnís State of the Republic address. Popularity 2 - Unrest 3 + 3d6 (3+3+1) = 6 -- OUCH! +4 to Unrest Level! Unrest goes up to 7!

This ends the Population Phase and starts the Senate Phase.


I will post snapshots and Republic stats next. The first Mandatory Business meanwhile is, as usual, Proposal and election of two new Consuls.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 06:48:49 PM
Catchup snapshots of the Player mats:

I.I.ís Aristocrats trail slightly behind the Plutocrats in raw power (Influence + votes), and as long as his total Influence remains less than first place then his activist knights canít each bring a second vote. Moreover, he and AzTank have been politically outmaneuvered by the Frog, into being a minority bloc despite their relative strengths! How long that will last, who can tell? The Aristocrats remain potent, and despite naming himself ďIncompetent IdiotĒ I.I. has played a clever game so far. Heís got decent cash reserves, two unplayed cards, and a well-developed pre-Early Statesman who is about to pass down a secured inheritance. His grip on 2nd place is tenuous, but he could go up as well as down.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/2236/YD37Mi.jpg)


Tripoliís Militarists have shot up thanks to recent wars and political gamesmanship! -- tying the Frog for total normal votes, and jumping hard on total influence. Their cash is a little thin for a top Faction right now however, and they still lack the punch of the top Influences. But theyíve got a more secure stable of senators with more to offer than the Conservativesí (currently) decreasing relevance.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2329/de5ABT.jpg)


The Frogís Plutocrats scored a strategic political coup last Turn in swinging himself from 3rd place in a coterie, over to leader of a larger coterie -- and one which needs him a little more than he needs some of them (perhaps)! No one is likely to soon forget him arranging the execution of one of his prior allies; but neither can anyone discount his power, cleverness, and income generation abilities: he may not have a lot of cash at the moment, but thatís because he has spent it improving his position. How much of the senatorial office power heíll be able to maintain this Turn remains to be seen.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/1738/qDOs7q.jpg)


AzTankís Conservatives, thanks to the judicial execution (or murder) of his Pontifex Maximus during the last Senate, has dropped into a close fourth places among the top four -- a positioned weakened further by the fact that Latin Era Statesman Spurius must be retiring very soon, with no heir. Under the circumstances, the newer two Factions will start overtaking him. (He also still owes the Aristocrats some judicial defense effort by Contract.) Heíll need some better luck and canny political strategy -- or bad luck among his former peers -- to be jockeying for first place again! But he does still have two unplayed cards in his hand...
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/9599/bpmj0Z.jpg)


Malizeís Populists suffered a massive back-stumble this past Turn, with the death of his Faction Leader Statesman before his family could inherit (at the start of the Early Era) -- though at least he did get his family Senator back immediately. Heíll need a while to rebuild, but he also has 3 unplayed Faction cards on his wing. And while he and Erax equal the combined votes and influence, and while Erax wildly exceeds him in cash, for the Senate Phase his total votes capable of being deployed on any topic pro or con, remains the slightest deciding edge between them. For now.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2208/AMsd4q.jpg)


Eraxís Progressives have made solid gains this past Turn, but he still necessarily lags behind the other Players in 6th place. His activist voting will become more sought after as a political tool in competitions as his power increases, however, and he still retains 3 unknown faction cards in his hand. Moreover, with his very solid cash reserves he could soon pull ahead of Malize -- or, with bad luck elsewhere, even higher!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2127/ZmkehQ.jpg)


As for the Republic's stats:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/5743/BoWBtC.jpg)

The 2nd Latin War remains Active on the border and Unprosecuted for now, though its relatively weak land power and disproportionate rewards for the Republic's growth will surely make it both a prime target and a politically chaotic struggle for who gets to take Rome's 10 Active Legions and go squash it!

Rome's income is 40 Talents currently, with a high watermark Treasury of 176. Unrest however bubbles at another high watermark of 7! The Spolia Opima remains unclaimed, but with no Enemy Leader this Turn it will remain so.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 03, 2018, 06:59:27 PM
Aside from my commentary on current Player strengths and weaknesses, two more factors should be considered:

1.) There are still 6 cards remaining in the Italian Deck, which means the Early Provincial Era cannot start this Turn with the next Early card played face up. (I double checked: there must be 5 or fewer remaining.) Next Turn, however, is almost guaranteed the start of the next Era (unless I roll 6 sevens in a row), and all that it entails.

2.) Tribunes may now be played by any Player at will. Doing so will discard each one permanently out of the game, but you'll be able to make a Proposal or to veto (most) other votes (whether Proposal or Prosecution). We have never played with Tribunes active yet, and this will be a serious change to the game's balance! Playing a Tribune still needs to follow Mandatory Business order, however: someone right now can make a Proposal for Consuls, but not for Other Business (yet) like stripping Acilius of his PontMax office; nor for other valid Mandatory Business like Proposing a Censor; much less for currently invalid Business such as Proposing a Dictator (or a Consul for Life)!

Players get to temporarily be a Presiding Magistrate (or even a little more powerful with a veto). Not to go around the procedural rules.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on December 04, 2018, 06:18:38 PM
Ok.  So, the version of our coalition deal that I found for the second turn was that I am to propose Acilius and Flaminius for consuls and they will propose Claudius for Censor on condition that he not prosecute The Plutocrats, The Militarists or the Progressives.

So, that is my proposal.  If they will agree to propose Claudius, I will propose Acilius and Flaminius for consuls.

I will allow some time for discussion/response before we vote on this proposal in case I got the deal wrong. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 04, 2018, 06:38:43 PM
We agree.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 04, 2018, 06:53:17 PM
The militarists agree
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 04, 2018, 08:26:54 PM
Note that contextually, the Frog isn't making a "Proposal" yet as Presiding Magistrate. He's offering a Contract, which I would automatically process when the terms come up.

Tripoli and Erax have agreed to the Contract.

It is thus valid (I'll name it tomorrow, or someone else can do so -- need to go to bed early). Anyone else can join it as they wish upon their own declaration.

Be aware however that, according to my calculations, you'll still need one more Faction to agree to your coming proposals (by Contract now, or on a case-by-case basis along the way), in order to safely carry the majority. Malize may not have recovered fully yet, and I.I.'s knights can't currently vote more than their usual extra; but together with AzTank's activist votes (which automatically trigger when voting against any Proposition) they could hold a majority against your Contract.

(I think. I'm a little bleery and need to hit the sack.  O:-) )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 05, 2018, 06:02:26 AM
I should perhaps also mention, since this is the second Turn it has shown up: as far as I know, a Contract not to Prosecute senators in your own Faction is (mostly) meaningless for two reasons.

1.) As far as I know, there is no profitable benefit for a Censor to launch a Prosecution of one of his fellow Faction senators. (Except for some loopy political gamesmanship perhaps, where one of your senators was contracted to do something and you don't want to do it so, whoops, he's being Major Prosecuted now, trolololol!  >:D But even then, sacrificing one of your own senators doesn't seem likely to be worth the benefit.) Even the Progressives, a Faction who (at least nominally) gets special abilities aimed at reforming the Senate from corruption and helping out the people, doesn't usually profit on the net balance by voting against their own senator's Acquittal in a Prosecution: the extra Influence gained from doing so isn't likely to offset the losses from a Conviction. (Though again I could imagine some loopy ways to exploit that, like using it to edge one of his other senators over the minimum Influence necessary to be automatically appo.inted Consul for Life!)


2.) There is only one situation, aside from a Contracted promise to do so (which a later Contract would not be able to negate), where a Censor would be forced to investigate any of his fellow Faction senators for corruption: investigating whether a Faction Leader conspired to send an assassinating senator who got caught in the attempt. In that case, the Censor might even have to put himself on trial! But for game balance purposes, that can't be Contracted against. Otherwise the first thing any Player would do when gaining a new senator, would be to publicly Contract with his fellow Faction senators that none of them will ever investigate their Faction Leader for conspiracy to assassinate! Similarly, Contracting not to Prosecute the Progressives this Turn, will not let off the Plutocrats from necessarily investigating the Progressive Faction Leader on a conspiracy to assassinate.


So, while it isn't invalid for the Frog to Contract not to Prosecute his own Plutocrat senators, it's kind of  " ::) :P ;) ". It doesn't really mean anything.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 05, 2018, 04:06:55 PM
I'll agree even though I wasn't included in the immunity, I'll just take Ethel's word.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 05, 2018, 05:18:37 PM
The Frog offers what I shall call the Seventh Turn Co-operative Immunity Contract. Specifically:

1.) Appius Claudius the Roman Consul, acting as PM, will propose Acilius (of his own Plutocrats) and Flaminius (of the Progressives) as Consuls this Turn, which any Contracted Players will agree to vote for.

2.) The new Consuls will agree to Propose Appius Claudius as Censor this Turn, which any Contracted Players will agree to vote for.

3.) Claudius will agree not to Prosecute any Progressive or Militarist senators this Turn if they join the Contract and vote him in as Censor. (Claudius also agrees not to Prosecute any of his own Plutocratic senators, for whatever thatís worth.  ::) )


The Progressives and the Militarists agree to join the Contract. The Populists also agree to join the Contract, even though Malize realizes no immunity to Prosecution is granted to his senators by the Contract.

Other Players may also join along the way, but the terms of the Contract will not be negotiable henceforth.


I acknowledge the public Contract to be in operation, and I will process it automatically as we reach the appropriate stages.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 05, 2018, 06:39:49 PM
Mandatory Business begins with an automatic resolution of the first term of the 7thTurnCoIm. Appius Proposes Flaminius and Acilius as Consuls. Plutocrats, Populists, Progressives, and Militarists all vote for. This is a decisive majority even if the Aristocrat activist ability opposes, and there are no benefits for remaining Players to vote against, so the Proposal passes.

Erax (for Flaminius) and the Frog (for Acilius) must decide among themselves who will be Roman and Field Consuls. Influence gain is +4 (for Italian Era Consuls) either way. Acilius has a Mil of 2; Flam has a Mil of 4. Being only family Senators, neither one has special abilities such as avoiding D/S results for particular Wars.

The 2nd Latin War only has a Land Strength of 4, and no Leader. D4, S18 are unavoidable but very low chances. Winning the Latin War will help Unrest a little, as well as permanently increasing the Republicís capabilities (and eliminate the ongoing cash drain). Ten Legions (1st thru 10th inclusively) are Active.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 06, 2018, 07:05:48 AM
Flaminius accepts the role of Field Consul.

If/when we make an agreement for next turn's elections, however, it is important to keep in mind that 21 Influence is an important limit - at that level a Senator may be nominated Consul for Life, though they still must win a vote (and I can't imagine any other faction voting in favor). In any event, keeping everyone below this level would avoid much infighting.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 06, 2018, 07:21:33 AM
Also, next Turn is almost guaranteed to start the Early Provincial Era, where election for CfL becomes possible.

As Erax notes, this basically requires the Player with that senator to be able to outvote all other Factions by himself, which is hard to arrange (though increasingly more easy as the game goes on!) So this early in the game it isn't too problematic -- though then again, the nominee always adds his own influence as votes!  :o

The more dangerous limit is 35 Influence -- because starting next Turn (most likely), the senator with that much influence automatically gets appointed Consul for Life.


There is however a way around this, which is not forbidden by the rules explicitly: a Player may at any time Contract to never have X-senator be Consul for Life.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on December 06, 2018, 06:34:18 PM
Flaminius to field consul so he can prosecute the war?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 07, 2018, 02:09:42 AM
Yes, his Mil 4 is not too bad.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 05:42:15 AM
My apologies for the delay -- 'work' work at the end of the year is hectic and last night I had to stay after overtime until about bedtime! Such is the life of a production manager.

I still won't be back at the house for another ten hours (at least), but I'll see what I can process here by text. (And catch up on the board later.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 05:57:40 AM
Note: I'll have to update the Influence gains officially this evening, but Acilius and Flaminius will both pick up 4 Influence, as well as their Faction Totals. This means the Plutocrats are edging out the Aristocrats even farther, so there can still be no activist x2 knight voting for the Aristos (only the normal knight voting).

Okay, already have a PontMax; can't use a Dictator yet; thus also not a Master of Horse; thus next Mandatory Business is Censor election.

In accordance with the 7thTurnCoIm, Acilius Proposes Appius Claudius as Censor, and everyone involved in the Contract votes for this, which is very much a majority of Senate votes.

ApClaud becomes Censor, and gains... however much the Censor gains in the Italian Era, 4 Influence I think.

The Presiding Magistrate post shifts temporarily over to ApClaud for the Prosecution segment. In accordance with the final condition of the 7thTurnCoIm, ApClaud is forbidden to investigate any senator from his own Plutocrats  ::) ::) ::) , nor from the Militarists nor the Progressives.

This leaves over as valid targets (clockwise from Player One around the table):

From the Aristocrats, Valerius for two Minor Suspicions, and their Faction Leader Cornelius for a Minor Suspicion.

From the Conservatives: no one. (None of his senators held major office last Turn, except for the now-dead PontMax, and he has never managed to secure a Concession.)

From the Populists (who are not exempted by the terms of the Contract even though Malize joined it): Aurelius for a Minor Suspicion.


A "Minor" Conviction will cost the Defendant up to 5 Influence and 5 Popularity, and any Concessions he has will go directly to the Forum to be voted on for re-assignment. The Prosecutor will gain half of any lost Influence.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 06:21:58 AM
Meanwhile, since Tribunes are now a "thing"...  :coolsmiley: let me clarify:

1.) Tribunes CAN (normally) veto automatic procession of Contracted choices, in any situations where a veto would normally work (e.g. Dictator Proposals cannot be vetoed). This includes the PontMax veto ability once per Turn. The main exception is that Players who have Contracted to make choices, cannot throw vetos to get out of their Contracted obligations. (e.g. if Malize had a Tribune, he could not use it to veto his obligated votes for ApClaud as Censor.)

2.) Tribunes CAN (normally) introduce Proposals in the middle of a Contracted series of events that I'm automatically processing, so long as those Proposals would be normally valid.

3.) Vetos used to break Contracted terms from being fulfilled, will also break subsequent obligations to fulfill terms. This means I will no longer automatically process subsequent terms of the Contract. The Contracting Players can still voluntarily fulfill the subsequent terms, but they'll have to do so 'manually' (or tell me ahead of time what they plan to do when-if-ever those situations come up.)

4.) Due to the nature of asynchronous play, I will allow a reasonable level of lag to retroactively throw Tribunes for vetos or Proposals, even though this will definitely allow Players to spoof gameplay to some extent. It's the only fair way I can think of to strike a balance between strategic play of Tribunes and moving the game along promptly. I'm willing to consider arguments for alternate procedures.

Having said that, any Players with Tribunes should be planning ahead as far as possible based on what they can reasonably expect to happen, and alerting me of any preparations they want to make, in order for the smoothest strategic play under the circumstances.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 06:30:14 AM
As a practical exercise, this means that henceforth until the end of the game, someone might p-mail me with instructions like this: "If the Censor decides to Prosecute my senator X this Turn, for which I'll make a Popular Appeal by the way, and if before the final 2d6 roll it looks like I have more than a 30% chance of being Convicted, then I'll play my Tribune to veto the Prosecution."
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 10:47:57 AM
Whoops, I need to correct a vote tally, though it won't affect the voting results so far.

The Progressives roll 3+2=5 so draw a card. It's a red-text Faction card, so he draws it to his hand. I've sent him a p-mail about it.

Plautius sacrifices 2 of his 8 cash to roll for a knight, so 4 or more on a 1d6: but he also rolls a 1.  :'(


Erax reminded me afterward that he had planned to spend 3 not 2 cash. I forgot I had already rolled, and so I thought I had simply forgotten the roll due to the winning of Erax's 3rd senator Family.

Consequently, I spent 3 (as instructed) of Plautius' 6 remaining cash (2 from 8 being 6) on what I thought was his knight roll, and happened to win it that time -- but the roll was illegitimate.

The correct procedure and result should have been: Plautius sacrificed 3 of his 8 cash during his knight roll, but (still) lost with a 1. He should have 5 (not 3) Talents remaining in his personal Treasury, but one less knight (and the Progressives should have one less normal vote total.)

I'll adjust tonight.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 06:03:58 PM
Okay, let's catch me up.

Per Erax's reminder, he spent 3 (not 2) of his 8 Talents and rolled a 1, so Plautius does not in fact have a knight, and the Progressive normal vote tally is still 7. But Plautius does have 5 Talents not 3. Now fixed.

Flaminius accepts the office of Field Consul, +4 Influence, up from 5 to 9, bringing the Progressive total to 13. (Hopefully this won't draw the attention of the skanky ones again AHEM I MEANT THE "KINDLY" ONES!!  :hide: )

The Pontifex Maximus Acilius takes over leadership of the Senate as the Roman Consul, and as Presiding Magistrate. His influence also goes up 4, from 12 to 16, and the Plutocrat total influence goes up to 46. (For such an unassuming little blob of a senator, the first Acilius has had a varied and interesting career since becoming politically important enough to notice!

In accordance with the Contract, the Contracted Factions Propose and elect former Consul Appius Claudius as Censor, for what will surely be his final office (since the pre-Early Statesmen will, with all practical certainty, be retiring sometime next Turn.) This bumps him up another 4 Influence (for Italian Era Censors) from 15 to 19, and the Plutocrat total Influence goes up to 50.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 06:10:14 PM
ApClaud temporarily assumes the post of Presiding Magistrate in order to consider investigating suspected corruption (among a list of valid suspects noted earlier, after Contracted invulernabilities are deducted).

But the Frog sends a message to me by hangout chat, that he will pass investigating anyone for Prosecution this Turn.

The PM post returns to Acilius, and all suspicions are eliminated for the rest of the Turn. This also completes all terms of the 7thTurnCoIm, which thus expires.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 06:12:48 PM
This finishes all Mandatory Business.

Other senatorial Business may now proceed.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 07, 2018, 06:26:37 PM
I suggest we send Flaminius out with all the Legions to squash the Second Latin War.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 07, 2018, 06:32:04 PM
Doing so will definitely improve the Republic's strength going into the Early Era.  O0
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2018, 08:02:20 AM
By hangout chat last night, the Frog Proposes that Flaminius be sent to War against the 2nd Latin War, with all 10 Legions.

I could almost assume unamity, but just in case...

(Plutocrats and Progressives are definitely voting for.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 08, 2018, 12:47:38 PM
Militarists vote for
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 08, 2018, 01:13:04 PM
I'll vote for.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2018, 01:33:25 PM
And that tips the Proposal into the majority for.

Flam leaves Rome, reducing the Progressive normal vote tally to 5. (I may have reduced Total Influence previously when senators left Rome, but if so I shouldn't have done that.)

I don't know what other Other Business would be usefully done this Turn, but I'll start processing the Combat Phase (which shouldn't be affected by any other business) and once the Frog (or a Tribune!) closes the Senate then I'll post the results and move into the Revolution Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2018, 03:04:20 PM
Okay, an hour and a half later, I've finished a lot of processing, and I can't figure out why anyone would play a Tribune to affect anything in the Senate at this point, so I'm provisionally ruling the Senate Phase closed, and moving on.

TURN SEVEN -- COMBAT PHASE
--------------------------

Flaminius of the Progressives vs the 2nd Latin War!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/6012/bQpWsi.jpg)

The Kindly Ones, attracted by his bravery, decide to tag along after the latest Flaminian boy...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5981/bNQAKB.jpg)

Not really helping!

Number of Legions: 10
Flamís Mil skill: +4 limit
Warís Land Strength: -4
DRM = +10

3d6 roll = 3+4+3=10 (not a D/S result) +10 DRM = 20, total Victory no losses!

Unrest -1 down to 6. Putting down this uprising gives Rome an opportunity to restructure the local governance: Republicís normal annual Income permanently increases by 10 Talents; and three more potential Legions of logistic strength are added to the Force Pool! The 2nd Latin War then discards.

Flaminius gains Warís land strength /2 rounded up, so +2, Influence and Popularity, up to 11 and 2 respectively. No Legions lost, so no Popularity lost. Flam goes home to Rome: Progressive normal vote back up to 7, and total influence up to 15. Flamís Legions go back to Active.

This ends the Combat Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2018, 03:05:44 PM
TURN SEVEN -- REVOLUTION PHASE
------------------------------

Still not Early Era, so not enough cultural leeway to try rebelling against the Senate yet.

No one has any delayed Faction cards being transferred to receive; but any cards traded at this time will arrive automatically.

No one needs to reduce their hand to five cards or less.

No one has any valid Concessions or Statesmen to play. (I double-checked.)

On the presumption that no one will be donating or trading cards for favors, I will end the Turn. (But if someone wants to do that, Iíll allow a reasonable lag time for immediate transference.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2018, 03:11:40 PM
Friends! Romans! Welcome to Turn Eight! The dawn of a new Era approaches!

In effect, these prologue Eras provide some variability to the 'start position' of the main game, as well as being a nice tutorial introducing game concepts in a steady fashion rather than having all of them thrown at new Players at once.

There are plenty more game developments on the way, but I'll cover them as we get to them, so as avoid overwhelming with new information as much as possible.  O:-)

For now, the Italian Era continues into the start of...

TURN EIGHT -- MORTALITY PHASE
-----------------------------

No Immanent Wars yet.

An x2 chit is drawn for the first time out of the Death Bag! This means the chip will be put back into the reshuffle and two more chits will be drawn. A blank, and Family #25 are drawn instead. (Had x2 been one or both of those, then any non-x2 chit would have been kept out, the shuffle would have happened with the x2 again, and 2 or 4 more would be drawn out, continuing the run until no x2 chits are drawn.)

Family #25 has no active members yet, so no Players are affected.

This ends the Mortality Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2018, 03:14:47 PM
REVENUE PHASE
-------------

Segment 1, Faction Incomes. All Concessions trigger Minor suspicions normally.

I.I.ís Aristocrats: 6 starting cash; +12 delayed transfer; +12 personal cash; +3 +1 +1 senator incomes; +6 knight incomes; +2 Tax Farming; +3 Harbor Fees
= new Faction total 46 cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9791/Xoa9Ob.jpg)


Tripoliís Militarists: 14 starting cash; +0 personal cash; +3 +1 +1 senator incomes; +6 knight incomes; +2 +2 Tax Faming
= new Faction total 29 cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1783/fzmLUw.jpg)


The Frogís Plutocrats: 4 starting cash; +7 personal cash; +5 (Plutocrat ability) +1 +1 senator incomes; +6x2(Plutocrat ability) knight incomes; +2 (1d6 roll) PontMax income; +0 Concession income
= new Faction total 32 cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7489/zlXHnl.jpg)


AzTankís Conservatives: 25 starting cash; +6 personal cash; +3 +1 +1 senator incomes; +4 knight incomes; +0 Concession income
= new Faction total 40 cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7656/Fe13vz.jpg)


Malizeís Populists: 4 starting cash; +0 personal cash; +3 +1 senator incomes; +2 knight incomes; +3 Mining Concession
= new Faction total 13 cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/215/Myw9rC.jpg)
(Aurelius does get a minor corruption; I just forgot to mark him. It's on the board now.)


Eraxís Progressives: 2 starting cash +22 personal cash; +3 +1 +1 senator incomes; +2 knight incomes; +2 +2 Tax Farmers
= new Faction total 35 cash.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8910/ccwOjq.jpg)


The Republicís Treasury currently has 176 Talents. Normal income is (now) 50. Normal expenses -2 x 10 Legions. No Active Wars.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 08, 2018, 03:35:23 PM
5 to Cincinnatus, 10 to Valerius, 15 to Cornelius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 08, 2018, 07:14:25 PM
The Frog from hangout chat instructs to give 7 to each of his three senators.

(Btw, if Erax, Malize, and/or I.I. want to be in the hangout chat, that's super-okay! Just p-mail me an email address, ideally but not necessarily a gmail address, and I'll try to send an invite from the chat window. It's a faster way for some people to have discussions on the game; and in some cases to split off into private threads for plotting!  O:-) )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 09, 2018, 12:29:46 AM
Aurelius 7 ó games
Junius 3 ó Knight
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 09, 2018, 06:16:53 AM
Whats the costs for games again?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 08:01:52 AM
Whats the costs for games again?

The printed board is misleading on this point, by the way -- it reads 11 for level-2 games, but that's a misprint. (If I ever publicly upload this modded module, I should find a way to fix that... also the 2d6 misprint instead of 3d6 for Combat rolls.)

The levels cost 7, 13, and 18. So the increase is progressively less: 7+6+5.

The results are 1,2,3 added to the sponsoring senator's popularity, and subtracted from unrest.

Only one senator from each Faction can sponsor games per Turn. (He can do other things, too: the same senator can try for a knight, sponsor games, and also try to persuade another senator.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 08:05:55 AM
(Weird... I tried to post, and the forum engine decided I wanted to post a new topic... bugs are not entirely gone from the switch to GoDaddy as host or whoever.)

AzTank mentions by p-mail that he wants to give 2 cash to each senator.

I'm not sure he understood that Spurius Cassius is about to leave the game permanently with all his chits, so since this is a learning game I'm not going to distribute out 2 to Cassius and spuriously waste them.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 08:10:43 AM
Tripoli by p-mail distributes 11 to Aurelius, and 7 each to Julius and Manlius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 09, 2018, 08:25:48 AM
Thanks for the recap on costs!

4 to Flaminius, 22 to Plautius (who will spend 18 on games for +3 Pop) and 9 to Calpurnicus who will spend 5 on a guaranteed knight.

This should leave T$ 4 on each senator and T$ 0 in the faction treasury after all expenses.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 09:04:12 AM
That's the last distribution, so I've got some processing to do! Icing/freezing rain here, so power may go out, but on the other hand not much travel so staying in this morning.  :coolsmiley:
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 09:47:50 AM
Segment 3, Republic income: 176 current cash; +50 normal income; -2 unit upkeep x 10 Legions = 186 new Republic cash (and a new high watermark  <:-) ).

This ends the Revenue Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 10:09:11 AM
TURN EIGHT -- FORUM PHASE
-------------------------

The Frogís Plutocrats have Appius Claudius as the Roman Consul, thus as the highest ranking available officer, and so start around the table.

Starting from this point, there are 6 Italian Era deck cards remaining. If the first one is black-text, and so plays openly to the Forum, and if it has a white border, that will trigger the start of the Early Provincial Era.

The Plutocrats roll 4+6=10, and the Frog draws a red-text Faction card to his hand. I've sent him a p-mail (and hangout chat direct message) about it.

I'll have to wait until the Frog posts or sends me directions, to continue.

Meanwhile, since that card wasn't an Early Era (white border) card played face up, the next Era has not yet started. From this point on, playing an Early Era Faction card face up will also start the new Era. (I mean if a Player plays a white bordered card from your hand.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 03:13:19 PM
Acilius pays 5 of his 7 Talents to automatically pick up his first knight. (Plutocrat vote tally goes up to 16.) Fulvius spends all 7 of his Treasury on Sponsoring games: his Pop goes up 1 to 1, and Unrest goes down 1 to 5.


The Aristocrats roll 5+6=11, so draw a Scenario card: the 2nd Samnite War.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4060/lU6CYy.jpg)

This is an Italian Era War (as the orangish border thinly shows, as well as its label), so it does not trigger the Early Provincial Era. Itís also the first ďInactiveĒ War drawn in this game!

Inactive Wars will wait around in the background until triggered by various methods, such as the arrival of related later wars, the arrival of an Enemy Leader, or being attacked by the Republic. They don't cost the Republic any ongoing cash until they go Active.

In case you are wondering, we have not seen the First Samnite War yet. The card's text, toward the bottom, indicates we can expect three Samnite Wars during the game. They will not all go Active all at once, but one War's existence will tend to trigger the coming Activation of subsequent Wars as they arrive on the board. "Related" Wars, in other words wars of a set (like "the Samnite Wars"), are very dangerous as they can escalate beyond the Republic's capacity to fight them.

Meanwhile, I have no instructions from AzTank about what he wants to do with his Forum round, but he didn't distribute enough cash to do much other than try rolling for a knight. (Or he could change his Faction Leader if he wanted.)

So to move the game along I'll send him a chat reminder asking him which senator he wants to roll for a knight, and how much of his 2 Talents to sacrifice toward that, and continue around the board.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 03:37:25 PM
The Populists roll 5+4=9, so draw a card: and there's the 1st Samnite War!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3766/jnduoK.jpg)

This War starts Active, and any Inactive Matching War (thus the 2nd Samnite War) advances to Immanent. That means during the next Mortality Phase, it'll go Active, too -- and a War's strength is multiplied by how many of its Matching set has gone active. Right now this thing is Force 2, and the 2nd Samnite is Force 5, but if they're both active at once then this will be Force 4 and the 2nd will be Force 10! (And if the 3rd shows up and is able to go active, each War's strength will be x3!)

Still not an Early Era card going face-up, so Italian Era remains.

Aurelius spends all 7 of his cash on Sponsoring Games: Unrest goes down 1 to 4; Aurís Pop goes up 1 to 4. Vote Tally goes up to 12. Junius sacrifices all 3 of his cash on a knight roll, and rolls a 5, so he gets his first minion! Vote tally goes up to 13.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 04:08:03 PM
The Progressives roll snake-eyes, so Erax draws a red-text Faction card face-down to his hand (which now has 4 cards). I've p-mailed him about what he drew.

It won't affect his prior instructions, nor anything else drawn so far, so I'll process those: Plautius will spend 18 on level 3 games, and Calpurnicus will spend 5 on a guaranteed knight (his first minion), leaving 4 on each senator. Unrest goes down 3 to 1. Plautís Popularity goes up 3 to 3. Normal vote tally goes up to 8.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 04:16:10 PM
I.I.ís Aristocrats roll 1+3=4, so he draws a Scenario card: the 3rd Samnite War!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4376/bdHgDh.jpg)

It also goes Imminent, since thereís an Active Matching War already. (If the other 2 were already whomped, this one would start Active.)

(You might also notice that the expansion designer accidentally copy-pasted some of the Samnite graphics over the text instead of vice versa. I didn't catch this so I haven't fixed it, but the text is the same as I can confirm from the printed rules.)

I don't have instructions from I.I., I think, so I'll have to pause here until I receive orders.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 09, 2018, 04:46:05 PM
5 on a knight for Valerius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 05:07:26 PM
AzTank lets me know by chat that Papirius sacrifices all 2 of his cash rolling 1d6 for a knight. He needs 4 or better, and rolls a 5! -- gaining his second minion. Normal vote tally goes up to 14.

Valerius of the Aristocrats spends 5 of his 10 cash on his 3rd minion. Normal vote tally up to 14.


Last comes Tripoliís Militarists, and by the process of deduction based on prior information (where I explained how the expansion prologueís rules divided up the Early Era senators), you can be certain what card heíll draw... which he does, rolling a 5+4 = 9, so not a random event! Instead, he draws the final card of the Italian Era, and itís the Sulpician family.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7394/NXik6M.jpg)

This instantly ends the Italian Era and starts the Early Provincial Era, which I'll technically have to process some results on before I get to Tripoli's instructions.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 05:27:11 PM
All hail the Grogpublic! -- the Republic has survived (with a lot of good luck in Allied donations randomly rolled) into the Early Provincial Era!  <:-)

The BIRTH OF THE REPUBLIC prologue / tutorial Eras haven't quite passed, since all three of the Samnite Wars are on the board, but they have done their job of introducing game concepts at (hopefully) a manageable rate, while creating some variation on how, and in effect when, the main game 'starts'.

But the main game starts now. :coolsmiley:

With some effects which I'll cover as we get to them, and with some immediate effects I'm processing now.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 06:06:45 PM
First, the pre-Early random even table is set aside (along with its Italian Era modification card), and the Early Era Random Event table goes into effect. Weíll talk about the particulars next Turn, since they wonít apply this Turn (Tripoli being the last Player with a round.)

Second, any pre-Early Statesmen remaining in the deck discard permanently. But none remain.

Third, all remaining cards from the Italian Deck stack on top of the Early Provincial Deck. But none (as it turns out) remain.

Fourth: all pre-Early Statesmen being held in Playersí Faction hands face-down, discard permanently. As it happens this only affects I.I., who was holding the Italian Statesman Marcus Atillius Regulus -- whom he couldnít play because the Frog already had family #12 (the Acilians) on the board.

Fifth: all active pre-Early Statesmen without families discard permanently. This only affects AzTank, whose family #24 Spurius Cassius Vicellinus was always going to be ďspuriousĒ this way, since his family could never be politically important in time to inherit from him.

Marcus Furius Camillus, venerable and honored Faction Leader of the Conservatives, also discards; but AzTank does have his family card, so all the chips pass down. That includes the Faction Leader status; ďprior consulĒ status (oddly enough); 2 Talents; 2 Popularity; and 5 Influence (Camís current 10 minus his 5 original Inf stat).

Keep in mind that this inheritance process, from Statesman to family Senator, remains an ongoing Conservative ability for the rest of the game, unique to AzTankís Faction!

The legendary Quinctius Cincinnatus has also (just recently!) managed to train an heir, retiring to pass down his prior consul training; 5 Talents; 1 knight; 1 popularity (2 current minus his original 1); and 14 Influence (15 minus his original 1). As it happens, the Quinctian family Senator always starts with 1 Influence, so the stat remains 15.

The original Manlius of the Militarists, meanwhile, was an otherwise unnamed Military Leader Statesman (unique to the Latin Era). He also retires, transferring all his chips directly to the new Manlius -- the only difference being a reduction of 2 Mil skill back from 5 to the original 3. But Manliusí three inherited minions bump that back up to 6. (The net result being a drop from 8 to 6.) All other stats necessarily remain the same, since this ďStatesmanĒ was simply a Mil skill buff.

Last but not least, the famous and influential Censor Appius Claudius, who wanted so much to help promote families into the Senate (but failed on his only such roll), and who wanted so much to fight in the 1st Latin War (but whose Mil skill barely existed), hands on his legacy to his family heir! The Censorial office; prior consul training; 7 Talentons; 4 knights; and 14 Influence (19 minus Apís original 5). Since the Claudian family normally starts with 4 Influence, this adjusts down to 18.

I feel genuine nostalgia at the passing of these great Statesmen and their deeds which shall live in our memories as examples going into the future!

(Iíll post new screenshots of the Player mats soon, before the Senate starts, as usual, so everyone can see where theyíre at now.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 06:11:48 PM
Per Tripoli's instructions, Julius spends 5 of his 7 talentons automatically gaining his 4th minion, who also increases his Mil Skil to 8.

I was given provisional instructions for Aelius to spend all 11 of his cash to Sponsor games; but since only 1 Unrest remains, and since Tripoli might take a shot at Persuading the new family Senator in the Forum...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7394/NXik6M.jpg)

...whose arrival triggered the Early Provincial Era, then I'm going to pause here to see if Tripoli wants to adjust his instructions.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 06:30:52 PM
Since Tripoli's choice about that isn't going to affect the Population Phase, and since his choice will end the Forum Phase, I'll move along for now...

TURN EIGHT -- POPULATION PHASE
------------------------------

Putting Rome in order: all senators with PontMax office and above get one Major marker. (Technically Acilius gets two Majors, but it isnít possible for someone to be investigated twice in one Turn for Major suspicion. Iím including them both for illustration of the point this time, but in future Turns Iíll only give one Major marker to senators with both PontMax and some other higher office.)

No Tax Farming Concessions are threatened; and no destroyed Concessions in the Curia. Nor are there any Aging Enemy Leaders.

The Fabian family in the Curia rolls a 2 on a 1d6, and canít promote a new patrician this Turn. (The late Appius Claudius wouldnít have helped that result either, bless his heart.)

There are no drought effects, and no Unprosecuted Wars, so the Unrest stays at 1.

Roman Consul Acilius of the Plutocrats is the HRAO (I said ApClaud earlier by habit, but it didnít matter since the Plutocrats had both the Censor and the Roman Consul). Therefore he takes his place on the steps to open the Senate this Turn as the Presiding Magistrate, and gives the State of the Republic! Popularity 0 minus 1 Unrest plus 3d6 of 3+1+1 (yeek!) equals 4! According to the chart, this adds 5 to the unrest level, increasing it to 6!


At this point I really do have to pause until we hear back from Tripoli one way or another, not least so that I can be sure of providing accurate snapshots going into the Senate Phase this Turn.  O:-)

Thus, neither has the Senate Phase officially started, so don't try throwing assassinations, or Tribuning Proposals for the new Consuls (nor the Frog normally Proposing anything) yet. You can discuss things, of course, but not make actual proposals yet.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 09, 2018, 08:14:55 PM
Okay, Tripoli confirms that he will try to Persuade the Sulpician family to join the Militarists.

Aelius be Persuading, and will spend 4 of his 11 Talents on the attempt.

12 Influence + 4 Oratory - 8 Loyalty + 4 bribery = +12 Base Number.

That doesn't mean he'll automatically win. A natural roll of 10, 11, or 12 will always fail to Persuade a Senator. (This keeps super-rich Players toward the end of the game from poaching senators from poorer players automatically.)

Since no Faction card preventing counter-bribery will be played on this attempt, all Players must now state whether or not they will add any cash to Sulp's card as counter-bribes. This cash can only come from your Faction Treasuries. Each Talent in Sulp's personal Treasury will reduce the Base Number one point. Once the BN drops below 2, no possible roll can win.

Once everyone has stated whether you will or not, Tripoli will have one last opportunity to add the rest of Aelius' 7 remaining Talents to the bribery.

Sulp will keep all Talents bribed to him regardless, making him that much more difficult to Persuade in the future -- but anyone who succeeds will end up controlling all his personal Treasury, too!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on December 09, 2018, 08:41:20 PM
I will spend 7 from faction cash to prevent the persuasion. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 09, 2018, 08:59:04 PM
I will spend 7 from faction cash to prevent the persuasion.
I'll match that.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 10, 2018, 12:21:55 AM
Not getting involved in this (don't really have the cash to anyway, let's be honest :) )


However, Junius should've also gotten +1 Pop from the games since Aurelius' pop went up.   
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 10, 2018, 04:43:13 AM
I don't have the cash to get into a bidding war, I'm staying out.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 10, 2018, 05:16:29 AM
Quik point of order: Rule 1.07.413 says that all bribes must come from the faction treasury.  I can't tell if II and Ethel have that much in their faction treasury. If they do, then I won't counter-bribe.  My persuasion attempt fails, and the subject walks off  14 silver richer.  Nice work, if you can get it.. :)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 10, 2018, 06:00:42 AM
Argh! -- yep, good catch Malize! I'll adjust that this afternoon (I hope). You'd think I'd remember that more often...  :hide: :-[ :pullhair: #:-)

The Frog had 11 in his Faction Treasury, and I.I. had plenty, too -- I'd have to check exactly how much, but more than the Plutocrats!

So yep, they can afford it.

I'm going to count your public message at 6:16 (system time) to override your pmail at 6:02 (system time) about what to do after counter-bribing is done.

So, Tripoli concedes and there will be no further bribing from him. However, Sulp isn't only 14 Talents richer (7 from the Frog and from I.I.'s Faction Treasury.) He's also another 4 Talents richer from Aelius' personal Treasury!

Thus, Sulp will have 18 Talents now (7+7+4). And he'll be that much more difficult (18 points worth) to Persuade to join anyone. (Until when-if-ever he dies and respawns from the Curia.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 10, 2018, 06:07:52 AM
This means the Senate Phase has officially started now. Assassinations can be thrown, and Tribunes and the Frog can make Proposals.

First Mandatory Business is the Proposal and election of two new Consuls. Keep in mind that you've got one easy War to deal with this turn (force strength only two), and increasingly difficult Wars coming up over the next two Turns. This would be a good milk-run for some doofy little senator as Field Consul.

The Senate can however vote to send the Roman as well as the Field Consul out to hit two of the three Wars on the board; and those two Wars can even include (or both can be) the two Immanent Wars!

If y'all decide to hit those, though, you had better make sure you win, because any attacked War will immediately go Active after the fight -- and since all three are Matching each other, they'll multiply each other, too! (I'll have to double-check, but I don't think attacking a non-Active Matching War means they go Active and so multiply strengths before the fight. If so, it would almost always be better to leave them alone and let them promote up to Active in their own time.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 10, 2018, 06:57:03 AM
Another big main-game factor that triggers in the Early Provincial Era, is that now one Player can win the game by himself by making one of his senators Emperor!  <:-)

Naturally there are a bunnnccchh of rules about this, but I'll cover the basics of the three methods for doing this:


1st.) Your senator can be elected Consul for Life during a Senate Phase. (CfL is the legal way to become Emperor.) Naturally, every other Player will have a vested interest in voting against you, but your nominee's personal Influence also counts (in this one unique situation) as extra votes in the Senate! The Proposal can be made by Tribune, and only one Proposal for CfL can be made per Turn. Losing the vote (somehow) doesn't bring any penalties. The Proposal can be made any time after new Consuls are elected, except not while the Censor is PM (because no Proposals can be made while he's deciding whether to investigate someone or actually prosecuting them.)

The nominee must be present in Rome (not off somewhere else), and needs 21 or more Influence (which will count toward his votes). He can hold any or no office, and does not need to be a prior Consul.

The Proposal cannot be vetoed (by Tribune or by PontMax or by some Statesmen abilities). But if it's proposed by a Tribune, there is at least one Intrigue card which can be played to make the Tribune withdraw his Proposal.

Since a vote is technically involved, it can be interrupted by assassinating your nominee! -- but keep in mind that a senator can only be targeted by one assassination attempt per Turn (so the Players can't run an assassination train on the nominee. ;) Not even every Player taking one attempt.) What you can expect, is that each of your voting senators will be targeted for assassination once by some Player's senator! -- since while that won't stop the vote (like assassinating the candidate), being dead will stop that/those other senator(s) from casting votes.


2nd.) Automatic appointment of any senator with 35 or more Influence. Since it's theoretically possible for more than one senator to cross that line together, the one farthest across the line gets the appointment. Total Faction Influence breaks any such ties; but oldest family among candidates does not break tied Faction Influence. (Usually oldest family is the ultimate tie-breaker.) This can happen at any time, not only in the Senate. Since no voting is involved, there can be no interruptions including by assassination -- though I think the rules may allow that one assassination attempt can be made afterward, if it happens during the Senate Phase.

A Player can avoid his senators being attacked as they approach the 35 Influence threshold, by publicly Contracting that one or some or all of his senators will never accept Consul for Life. He can exclude one or more of his senators from ever being elected or rebelling this way, too.


3rd.) A Faction may partly or completely rebel against the Senate during the Revolution Phase. In that case, one of the senators will be the Prime Rebel, and he'll create a War, which the Senate will have to start dealing with in the next Senate Phase. If at any time the Senate doesn't Prosecute his War, or all appointed commanders against his War suffer sufficient Defeat against it (below minimum Force levels to keep his War contained), then the Prime Rebel will take over the Republic as Emperor.

Becoming Emperor (or Consul for Life which is the same thing but more legally ;) ), doesn't necessarily mean that senator's Player automatically wins. The Republic can be restored if he dies consolidating his rule -- which mainly amounts to him successfully reducing Rome's Wars to three or less, but dying in the final success. (The official rules say that the Player will still win if his Consul for Life senator is captured, but I'm going to house rule that this restores the Republic, too, with various results if he pays his way free or is rescued by defeating his captor's War.)

A failed Prime Rebel will die, along with his fellow rebel senators, but this doesn't mean his Player is out of the game! -- even if there's a party wipe and all his senators die. You'll just be handicapped in continuing for a while until the game assigns you a new senatorial family from the Curia. It's possible for a failed Rebel Faction to win with everyone else if the Republic survives to the end of the game, or even to come back and win alone with an Emperor after all!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 10, 2018, 05:22:37 PM
Tribune!

I propose Julius and Aurelius for Consuls.

I also propose a public agreement between the Militarists, Progressives, Populists and Aristocrats to: 1) Vote for this proposal, 2) propose and vote for an Aristocrat Censor this turn, and 3) That Censor not prosecute anyone in the aforementioned four factions this turn.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 10, 2018, 06:37:32 PM
Tribune!

I propose Julius and Aurelius for Consuls.

I also propose a public agreement between the Militarists, Progressives, Populists and Aristocrats to: 1) Vote for this proposal, 2) propose and vote for an Aristocrat Censor this turn, and 3) That Censor not prosecute anyone in the aforementioned four factions this turn.

The Aristocrats vote for and agree to the contract.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 10, 2018, 07:43:48 PM
Phew, catching up! -- I had to stay late at work again (and will through the end of.... gosh, I dunno, Feburary maybe  :buck2: ), and then had to go out of town immediately afterward until returning just now!

But I've processed the plays so far, including the missing Populist point I should have reckoned for Junias.

Incidentally, the Tribune played by Erax tottered into the Senate from back in the Latin Era -- which was a weird balancing choice by the prologue/tutorial expansion designer, since there's no way to even play Tribunes until the Plebian Revolt of the Italian Era has been resolved!
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 10, 2018, 08:41:29 PM
I agree to the public contract. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 10, 2018, 09:39:39 PM
Tribune!

I propose Julius and Aurelius for Consuls.

I also propose a public agreement between the Militarists, Progressives, Populists and Aristocrats to: 1) Vote for this proposal, 2) propose and vote for an Aristocrat Censor this turn, and 3) That Censor not prosecute anyone in the aforementioned four factions this turn.

Agreed
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 11, 2018, 06:00:14 AM
Okay, I've made sure the Frog knows y'all are staging a political coup here. ;)

You know for a fact that he's got at least one veto he could throw (from his PontMax, which recharges every new Senate Phase), so I've got to wait on processing your Contract (though I note its validity) until he declares whether he'll act or not.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 11, 2018, 08:22:03 AM
Per private message, the Frog says Acilius the PontMax will veto this Consul Proposal.

The PM does not offer his own Proposal yet.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 11, 2018, 08:30:03 AM
Erax throws a second Tribune (two cards left in his hand now), this one a normal Early Era trib.

This incidentally means, for anyone who wasn't in a position to know yet, that at least one of the Early Era tribunes was shuffled into at least one of the prior Era decks. So just because the Latin Era tribune was played, doesn't mean there aren't any more!

The new Proposal is Julius of the Militarists and Junius of the Populists for Consul.

The first term of the prior Contract being foiled means that all subsequent terms are no longer binding.

However Erax re-offers a new Contract with all the same terms except the replaced obligation to vote for these senators as Consuls.

Technically I'll have to have approval again by any Players who agree to be included in the Contract's automatic procession.



(Oh, and Erax correctly points out that 2 x 10 does not equal 40...  #:-) :pullhair: :notworthy: So the Republic actually has 206 Talents. This is why I should use a calculator for literally everything I do in math, even if it seems obviously simple. Math is not my strong suit.  :hide: )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 11, 2018, 10:26:06 AM
Agreed to new terms
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 11, 2018, 02:33:47 PM
The position of the Aristocrats has not changed.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 11, 2018, 04:59:38 PM
Okay, catching up again after work. The Republic's actual Treasury total is fixed (206). I've deducted the proper amounts (4 from Aelius; 7 each from the Faction Treasuries of the Plutocrats and the Aristocrats) in the Sulp Persuasion attempt, and added 18 Talents to his card.

The new Contract remains valid with the new Consul proposal. I'll start processing the votes with what I've got so far. I fully expect Tripoli to agree to the new Contract offer but strictly speaking he hasn't done so yet, so I can't process his votes yet.

Votes for so far are 8 Progs; + 14 Poppies (I've double checked all the Pop gains and losses for Aurelius, and for Junius since he reset); + 14 Aristos (no activists because not top Influence) = 36.

There are still 43 potential votes against (including 4 extra Conservative activist votes), so I can't just call it a day without the Militarists kicking in. (Or one of the others for that matter: they're perfectly free to agree with the Proposal!)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 11, 2018, 05:05:31 PM
Yep-I agree to the new proposal
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 11, 2018, 05:52:44 PM
That'll pass the proposal then, unless one of the other two guys has a(nother) Tribune he wants to throw to veto it.

I'll let this run a little while longer to see if there's any counter-action and then proceed.

This introduces an unavoidable slowdown factor, since while I know whether or not other players have a Tribune which they may or may not use, it wouldn't be fair if I revealed that publicly -- which proceeding automatically with a vote's results, or waiting, might inadvertently reveal! There's also the question of allowing time for asynchronous play, since after all the whole point to this mode is to allow players to check in on the game according to their own schedule and see if they need to make any choices.

If anyone has suggestions on how to streamline this, let me know.

Relatedly, when players have tribunes, you should be thinking ahead to when you might or might not play them, and let me know privately so that when you aren't available I can try to assess the situation according to your protocols. No one can expect you to anticipate every circumstances of course! -- but anything you can anticipate ahead of time will be proportionately helpful.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on December 11, 2018, 06:34:20 PM
I have no counteraction.  All hail the new consul and the new coalition. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 11, 2018, 07:44:02 PM
I have no counteraction.  All hail the new consul and the new coalition. 

{unspoken qualifier} "...for now."  >:D

Junius and Julius will have to figure out between them who gets to take the Legions to go beat up on the 1st Samnite War, and who gets to be run the rest of this Turn's Senate. Each of them will get 5 Influence regardless: the new, full-game Influence for Consul election (and for the Censor coming up).

Speaking of, the next Mandatory Business will be to Propose and elect a Censor. Whichever Faction gets Roman Consul, you'll be obligated by Contract to Propose an Aristocrat senator, so you can't re-elect the new Claudius (though Censors can be re-elected each year.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 12, 2018, 06:19:57 AM
Julius is the obvious field consul choice imo, my guy is basically only useful if at Rome and not really worth putting in charge of legions compared to militarist senators.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 12, 2018, 07:26:09 AM
This leads tangentially to a house rule or modification that I've been toying with in the back of my head.

I feel (and I use that word distinctly) that there should be at least some chance, or even perhaps a certainty, of Victorious commanders gaining a point of Mil skill for their Victory. Or maybe after any battle win or lose.

Currently the official rules don't allow for the idea of senators gaining experience and becoming more efficient after winning fights. That seems unrealistic.

But on the other hand, I can understand not gaining better logistic efficiency due to game balance, too.  :-\ (The Militarists would still have an advantage due to their knights providing better headquarter capability, as well as benefiting from the usual chance or certainty of experience gain.)

Also, there's kinnnnnnd of a mechanic in place for senators gaining experience, and that's Legion veterancy -- which has unlocked now with the Early Provincial Era, so whomever you send out to stomp the first Samnite War will not only pick up 1 Influence and 1 Pop (and maybe another Pop if a Populist is sent to do it  ^-^ ), but also the Legions will start turning Veteran. And veteran legions returning with a commander will have some special loyalty to that commander.

But then again, that loyalty only really applies, in a military sense, to situations of rebellion, whether against or in defense of the Republic. Otherwise veterans are available for every commander to use, even though loyal to a particular one.


While I'm at it, I'll also be testing a new optional rule concerning Vet training. In the main rules, Vet Legions hit harder but don't defend one whit better than normal Legions. I could think of four levels of improved defense for Vet Legions compared to normal Legions, and I couldn't decide which would be better for game balancing, so I set up a situation where a new Other Business option for the Senate has been added to pay a one-time fee (currently 10 Talents but that seems cheap, I may raise it progressively or absolutely) for each new level of Vet defense training. This would be something similar to the Marian reforms, which I noticed seems to be lacking as a game mechanic or event.  ???
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 12, 2018, 03:02:14 PM
The current proposal is to have the Julius of the militarists take all 10 legions, and, "open a can of whup-ass" on the Saminites in the 1st Saminite War.  I think that would be an auto-victory, as the minimum 3D roll is a 3 (10 legions +8 military-2 war strength)=16+3 die roll>18.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 12, 2018, 03:25:09 PM
Well, that will settle Julius being the Field Consul, so Junius of the Populists will be Roman Consul by deduction.

That Proposal will have to wait until Mandatory Business is finished, though. But now we can tell that Malize will be running the Senate for the rest of the Turn, and his first duty as the new HRAO and thus the Presiding Magistrate will be to Propose a Censor election -- which he's Contracted to pick from I.I.'s Aristocrats.

Theoretically, AzTank and/or the Frog could preempt that with a Tribune, if one of them has one (or more), and Propose someone themselves for Censor, but whether they have the votes to get away with it is a whole other question. My guess is that for one or another reason they won't rock the boat on it, but we'll see.

Anyway. Over to Malize now to Propose a Censor from I.I.'s stable.

After that gets done, then I.I. will have to consider investigations, and we'll have to process one or two or none of those; and then we'll be done with Mandatory business and can move on to Malize Proposing Julius slaughtering the Samnites like crickets.  >:D
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 12, 2018, 03:48:17 PM
I propose the honorable Valerius as Censor.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 12, 2018, 05:09:15 PM
Catching up on Consul assignment results: Junius gets a Prior Consul marker and 5 Influence, up to 8, bringing Populists' total Influence to 11. Julius also earns a Prior Consul marker and 5 Influence, up to 9, Militarist total Influence up to 34. Roman and Field Consuls respectively, as noted.

Valerius is a valid choice (being in Rome, and being a Prior Consul), and the 8th Turn Coalition certainly has the votes to pass it. I'll provisionally process it as done.

Valerius gains 5 Influence, up to 16, new total up to 46. The Aristocrats generate an extra Influence point from this (the 47th total) to be given to someone other than Val.

The PM duty shifts over to Valerius and I.I. must decide whether to investigate anyone. Valid targets after the Contracted Factions are excluded are:

From the Plutocrats, Claudius and the PontMax Acilius, each on Major suspicions.

From the Aristocrats... well, no one, because suffering the slings of fortune and being politically irrelevant for a while also makes you invulnerable to suspicion.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 12, 2018, 07:32:41 PM
First off, Valerius will commission the construction of the Via Appia Valeria south for the use of Julius' legions. Owing to its significance to the war effort, he will consider judicial matters once the groundwork has been laid (possible prosecutions to come).
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 13, 2018, 03:17:32 AM
After we are done with prosecutions and before we go off to war, we should decide whether to raise the three new legions in our pool.

Having looked at the rules, it's clear to me that an attacked Imminent War does, in fact, go active and multiply its matching wars immediately, so that would be a bad idea and we should focus on the active war.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 13, 2018, 06:19:43 AM
First off, Valerius will commission the construction of the Via Appia Valeria south for the use of Julius' legions. Owing to its significance to the war effort, he will consider judicial matters once the groundwork has been laid (possible prosecutions to come).

To be clear, he's playing an Italian Era Faction Intrigue card from his hand, which happens to also be an historical Event.

I'm not where I can take a snapshot of it (much less process the results), but the card text which is sufficiently explanatory reads: "Playable during the Senate Phase," check, "after Censor election," check, "by a faction that controls the Censor," check. Within the implications of the game rules, this means I.I. can play it at will, any time after Val has been elected Censor, which is what he's doing.

"Censor gains 2 Popularity and Unrest is lowered by 2. The State must immediately pay 10 Talents from the Treasury. Cannot be played if less than 10t in the Treasury." In other words you can't troll everyone in the game by suiciding the Republic with this card.  ::) As usual it discards permanently after use.

Historically, Appius Claudius convinced the Senate to build (and pay for) the Appian Way while he was serving as Censor, thus the terms of the card (and why Rome's and indeed the Western World's, perhaps even the world's, first superhighway was named that.)

Ironically, Appius Claudius in this game was Censor at least once; and had the Frog gotten this card at that time somehow, he could have matched history with it.  :coolsmiley:

I'll have to process the results when I get home from work, but I can verify it's a valid card play.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 13, 2018, 06:22:27 AM
Rome looked on the road, and it was a good road.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 13, 2018, 06:31:42 AM
After we are done with prosecutions and before we go off to war, we should decide whether to raise the three new legions in our pool.

Having looked at the rules, it's clear to me that an attacked Imminent War does, in fact, go active and multiply its matching wars immediately, so that would be a bad idea and we should focus on the active war.

Thanks, I somehow didn't look that up myself last night to check which way it went, even though I fully meant to!  O0 :notworthy:

To be a little more specific, it not only multiplies its Matching Wars, it multiplies itself, too, immediately. All Matching Wars multiply each other in being part of a set. So going after one of the Imminent Wars will double its own power immediately and also the power of the 1st Samnite.

HOWEVER! -- the sequence of attack can make this less of a problem. If you Deploy a Force to attack the 1st Samnite War first (which will necessarily send the Field Consul as Force Commander, under these circumstances, a Dictator being unavailable yet due to lack of sufficient threat), and then Deploy (by a different Proposal, notice) a Force (with the Roman Consul) to attack one of the Imminent Samnite Wars (which by the way will instantly end the Senate Phase since the PM will have departed, unless the PM resigns his post for this year devolving PM duties onto the next available officer, the Censor presumably in this case).... {inhale!}

...then the Imminent War does go Active and multiplies with its Matching War immediately (as Erax verified), BUT you'd be attacking the weaker War first which only has a strength 4 even doubled. And if you manage to defeat that, then the next fight during the Combat Phase will be against a War depleted back to its normal Land Strength.

So depending on your logistic capabilities, there are ways to game the rules there.  O:-) Still riskier than stomping the Wars one at a time in sequences as they activate, as Minerva would doubtless advise.  :coolsmiley:
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 13, 2018, 06:44:34 AM
First off, Valerius will commission the construction of the Via Appia Valeria south for the use of Julius' legions. Owing to its significance to the war effort, he will consider judicial matters once the groundwork has been laid (possible prosecutions to come).

What are the effects of this card on the war effort?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 13, 2018, 07:38:32 AM
First off, Valerius will commission the construction of the Via Appia Valeria south for the use of Julius' legions. Owing to its significance to the war effort, he will consider judicial matters once the groundwork has been laid (possible prosecutions to come).

What are the effects of this card on the war effort?

Nothing in the game; in real life it had a military importance of course. I think this was just Malize roleplaying.  :)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 13, 2018, 08:39:11 AM
Nothing in the game; in real life it had a military importance of course. I think this was just Malize roleplaying.  :)

Yup.

Rome so serious.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 13, 2018, 10:03:49 AM
Eh, it's a heretofore unseen card, so it makes sense to check if it had an in-game military application.

(Also I meant to type "I.I." not Malize, since he was the one rp-ing the building of the Via Valerian. But a neuron zigged instead of zagging.  ::) )

I dearly love all the rp-ing, by the way!  :smitten:

Almost as much as I love the political strategerying.  >:D
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 13, 2018, 04:57:17 PM
Catching up a little... here's the Appian Way card:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6804/r7XmN0.jpg)

Val gains his first 2 Pop; Unrest goes down 2 to 4. The Republic pays 10 Talents, down from 206 to 196. That was I.I.ís last remaining Faction card in his hand.

As a reminder, I still donít havenít heard from you, I.I., where your extra point of Influence should go. Not to Valerius (he generated it as a special ability side effect); Quinc and Corny both have 15. Corny is your faction leader and a priest, and has 3 knights and a Tax Farming Concession (and 15 cash). Quinc has 1 Pop, 1 knight, and 5 cash. You can check back to a pre-Senate snapshot to see their basic stats (Mil / Ora / Loy.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 15, 2018, 10:13:58 AM
In case anyone is wondering, most of the action recently has involved back-channel political strategizing. We may have stalled a bit on that in the last day, in regard to whether to do this-or-that (or possibly the other).

Anyway, eventually the Players will work out how to proceed. But we've got Christmas holidays coming up, and this combined with winter weather in the northern hemisphere is likely to delay gameplay off and on until we're clear of it.

Consequently, if Players (including myself as umpire) are going to be out of pocket for a while, be sure to post and let us know.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 15, 2018, 12:08:20 PM
I'm available.  SImply getting my legions ready to cross the Rubicon, err, I mean defend Rome against the Samarians.... ;D
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 16, 2018, 07:56:47 AM
Valerius will prosecute Acilius. Voting order will be Plutocrats, Populists, Militarists, Conservatives, Progressives, and Aristocrats.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 16, 2018, 09:12:17 AM
Valerius will prosecute Acilius. Voting order will be Plutocrats, Populists, Militarists, Conservatives, Progressives, and Aristocrats.

Minor or Major?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 16, 2018, 09:52:06 AM
Yep, the Major or Minor has to be included in the announcement. (I mean, I know which one you probably intend, but since one result threatens a character death then it has to be announced.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 16, 2018, 10:18:03 AM
Also! -- I.I. must arrange for a Prosecutor. It can't be Valerius; as Censor he's acting as the judge. (I.I. can choose one of his other senators to be Prosecutor, or can choose a volunteer offered by another Player.)

(While I'm at it, I.I. should let me know which senator other than Valerius gets the extra 1 point of farmed Aristocratic Influence.  :coolsmiley: )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 16, 2018, 11:14:54 AM
The prosecution will be Major. Can Acilius be the subject of a Minor prosecution with no Minor tokens? Cornelius will prosecute.

Extra influence to Quinctius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 16, 2018, 12:35:29 PM
The prosecution will be Major. Can Acilius be the subject of a Minor prosecution with no Minor tokens? Cornelius will prosecute.

Extra influence to Quinctius.

Yes, Major suspicions can be given Minor prosecutions.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 16, 2018, 01:01:34 PM
Meanwhile, we can start tracking votes:

Acilius' Influence = 16 votes for Acquittal

The Plutocrats have no reason not to vote for Acilius's Acquittal, so provisionally: +14 votes for Acquittal

The Plutocrats must decide, before voting continues, whether or not Acilius is going to risk making a Popular Appeal. Until then, other Players must NOT announce their votes!

Despite going last, presumably all Aristocrat senators will vote against Acquittal; and they're still 3 points shy of having the most total Influence, thus no activist knight voting. So: -14 votes.

Net votes so far are 16 for Acquittal. (Prosecutor and Advocate net oratory counts as a dice-roll modifier during the final trial, not as extra net votes per se.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 16, 2018, 03:41:23 PM
What dice mods apply to the popular appeal roll?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 16, 2018, 03:53:09 PM
Only the Accused's Popularity, which is zero for Acilius so it counts for nothing. It would add to the dice-roll if his Pop was positive, and subtract if negative.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 17, 2018, 06:46:58 AM
If I understand things correctly we are waiting on if popular appeal is occurring before voting ?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 17, 2018, 07:54:35 AM
If I understand things correctly we are waiting on if popular appeal is occurring before voting ?

Yes. I've dropped the Frog a reminder that we need to know before we can proceed. Since Acilius has totally neutral (0) popularity, it's a case of how lucky does he feel. ;)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 17, 2018, 08:03:50 AM
He just chatted back that he will not make a Popular Appeal. So voting can now continue!

For ease of reference, the voting order going forward will be: Populists, Militarists, Conservatives, Progressives, and (if they want to do something different than I expected ;) ) Aristocrats.

We're still at a net 16 votes for Acquittal (assuming the Aristocrats vote against as the Plutos voted for, neutralizing each other and leaving over Ac's 16 Influence as Prosecution votes.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 17, 2018, 09:53:37 AM
Populists are for acquittal, Iím very leery of each turns censorial sitting becoming a license to pogrom ó wonít be too long before most factions would be vulnerable to elimination if we keep on that way; I apologize if that disappoints others, I get the goal here, just wish there was a better method than state sanctioned murder (with tit for tat potential)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 17, 2018, 11:06:43 AM
I just realized, I totally forgot to provide pre-Senate snapshot adjustments this Turn. I got too distracted talking about the new function unlocking to try to be Emperor.  :-[

That just means I'll have to wait until tonight (possibly after a Christmas party) to update the voting results.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 17, 2018, 03:16:30 PM
Okay, sneaking in some moments before the party. I'll see if I can't get properly current snapshots, too...

Malize adds 14 votes for acquittal, bringing the net votes to 30.

Tripoli votes next, then AzTank, then Erax, then last I.I. (although I'm provisionally including his votes already since he launched the Prosecution. ;) )

The Frog has not yet chosen an Advocate, but he can wait until after the Player voting to do that.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 17, 2018, 03:29:00 PM
Snapshotting!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/7331/8ePkhn.jpg)




(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5747/mqaYAk.jpg)




(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2483/mZkNqR.jpg)




(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3548/yXvY9I.jpg)




(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1940/4RTSZQ.jpg)




(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8800/BUiwYT.jpg)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 17, 2018, 04:30:06 PM
Populists are for acquittal, Iím very leery of each turns censorial sitting becoming a license to pogrom ó wonít be too long before most factions would be vulnerable to elimination if we keep on that way; I apologize if that disappoints others, I get the goal here, just wish there was a better method than state sanctioned murder (with tit for tat potential)

I have to  agree with Malize.  I didn't agree at first when this question was posed, but on reflection, but it seems like we are setting up for a Roman version of McBeth, and without much justification.  However, its a pretty close question.  The militarists are going cast all their votes for acquittal-this time.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 17, 2018, 04:46:46 PM
That's 16 more votes, bringing the net total up to +46!  :o

AzTank votes next, then Erax.

If no Player other than I.I. votes against Acquittal (a real possibility at this point), then Valerius will lose a point of Influence....


Edited to add: AzTank may be traveling this week, so this might be the start of various holiday-delays.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on December 18, 2018, 01:18:13 PM
My guys vote to aquit.  Also yes to frog keeping pontmax
I
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 18, 2018, 02:44:44 PM
That leaves Erax's Progressives!

I suspect, though I won't be sure until I can check later tonight, that we've passed the point where the 'invisible' senator votes can threaten Acilius with a loss, even if Erax votes against Acquittal.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 18, 2018, 03:46:16 PM
Okay, we're technically past the point where the Progressive votes could possibly flip the Trial to Conviction. The net vote (already counting the Aristocrats presumably) was +46 before the Conservatives weighed in, and jumped another 9 points to 55. The 'invisible' senators could only at most vote -20, and Erax could only add -8-3 = -11 more votes. -31 votes won't drop 55 below 0.

If all the Players voted against the Censor, then he'd lose an Influence point, but by putting himself last it doesn't matter to I.I. whether Erax votes for or against acquittal: the Censor in Trials is not obligated to vote against Acquittal. So if (as might happen) everyone votes against him, he'd just agree at the end, and avoid the 1 Inf penalty loss.

Nor would there be any other effect to counting Erax's votes pro or con.

Consequently, the Trial effectively ends here.

Edited to add processed results:

The Frog never got around to announcing an Advocate for Acilius, so Acilius defended himself. Consequently, he doesnít gain any influence for his win.

Cornelius as the designated Prosecutor loses 3 Influence, down from 15 to 12. Total Aristocrat Influence is now 44.

Since there can be only one Major Investigation per Senate Phase (not counting Specials for Assassination conspiracy), this ends the Prosecutions. Valerius hands the PM duties back over to Junius of the Populists.  With the Prosecution over, everyone loses their Suspicion marks until next Turn.

This also ends all Mandatory Business. Other Business is now open for consideration, e.g. Raising one or more of the next three (11th thru 13th) Legions; Deploying one or more Forces to hit Wars; and possibly attempting to remove the PontMax Office from Acilius by direct Senatorial vote (though that will need more than 66% majority.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 18, 2018, 03:56:38 PM
On the question of a possible Proposal to Remove Acilius from PontMaxiness ;) ....

We already know (because he said so) that AzTank's Conservatives will vote against that proposal, so with his activist ability thus activated he'll muster (9+4) 13 votes; and the Frog can be expected to vote against it, so that's another 14. Thus 27 votes minimum against.

Maximum votes in favor would be I.I.'s 14 (can't activate activists) + Tripoli's 16 + Malize's 14 + Erax's activist (8+3) 11. Thus 55 votes maximum for.

Absolute total would be 82. 55/82 = jusssssst barely over 66%. Specifically, 0.6707317 (rounded 67.1%)

So the Proposal would work, but only if everyone votes against the Plutocrat / Conservative stand, AND only if the Frog doesn't have a Tribune in his hand. (He does have two cards face-down.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 18, 2018, 07:50:06 PM
For simplicities sake Iíll lay out the issues for the senate to vote on by bullet point and factions can vote in any order on each item (these are all yea/nay)

1) raise all available legions

2) place all legions under field consul vs 1st samnite war (iirc)

3) remove acilius as pontmax

4) appoint calpurnicus of the progressives as new pont max

Jason step in if Iíve messed something up
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 18, 2018, 08:02:49 PM
Yea for all.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 18, 2018, 08:08:42 PM
Malize, those are all fine, though keep in mind that once the Field Consul (Julius iirc) leaves for battle, he won't be available to add his votes to the Senate. So timing could be an issue there.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 18, 2018, 08:12:33 PM
Just to be clear, Malize, in calling for the vote, you're making those Proposals official. That doesn't necessarily mean you've voted on them yourself yet; so that will need a little clarification.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 18, 2018, 08:36:04 PM
Understood
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 18, 2018, 08:37:34 PM
Malize, those are all fine, though keep in mind that once the Field Consul (Julius iirc) leaves for battle, he won't be available to add his votes to the Senate. So timing could be an issue there.

So the fc is dispatched as soon as thereís enough votes in favor to send him?  Just for clarification
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 19, 2018, 02:38:08 AM
Sorry guys, I've been away a few days. Can I retroactively vote for conviction and get the faction Influence bonus?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 19, 2018, 07:30:05 AM
Sorry guys, I've been away a few days. Can I retroactively vote for conviction and get the faction Influence bonus?

You can only get the bonus if your position wins. E.g. if you vote for Conviction, he'd have to be Convicted for your senators with knights to get the influence bonus. But that turned out to be impossible in this case: too much majority in favor of Acquittal.

Or that's currently the rule. I thought about having activist-knight senators get the Influence win or lose for making political hay out of the situation, and I may still go to that. I took a little more conservative position for testing game balance: figuring I could add it a lot less painfully later, than take it out if it overbalanced too much!

As things stand, I'm not sure the Progressives are being given enough encouragement (or temptation ;) ) to trigger their activist abilities by choosing to vote critically (including against themselves where appropriate). So I have been thinking about adjusting the rule upward, so to speak, so that any activist Progressive vote adds the influence bonus. But if so, I may halve the influence gain. (Currently at 2, or 4 for voting critically against yourself.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 19, 2018, 07:34:52 AM
Malize, those are all fine, though keep in mind that once the Field Consul (Julius iirc) leaves for battle, he won't be available to add his votes to the Senate. So timing could be an issue there.

So the fc is dispatched as soon as thereís enough votes in favor to send him?  Just for clarification

Yes, he departs immediately.

This rule also affects sending out the Roman Consul with a Force. If the RomCons is still acting as Presiding Magistrate when that happens, then the Senate immediately closes for the Turn! -- due to the rule that if the PM leaves without ensuring the continuance of PM functionality, then the Senate must close. (This affects PMs being sent to Govern a Province, too: a whole other large functionality that has technically opened up in this Era, but which hasn't become a factor yet.)

The way around that, is for the current PM to step down as PM allowing the post to devolve onto the next available senator. But then of course that senator becomes the one who can offer unlimited Proposals without needing an expendable Tribune card, so for the plan to continue after the current PM leaves it's important that the new PM be willing to support the former PM being dispatched on whatever. (Or a coterie needs to be prepared with Tribunes in favor of the plan.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 19, 2018, 07:40:57 AM
Ok cool thx.  Iím holding my ayes until the end for that technical reason, but you can tack them as the final vote to speed processing

Also wanted to add as a general note that I selected the progressives because the pont max position should be safe there for some turns, the progs not being so powerful that them holding the position adds overly much to their perceived threat, plus the powers of pm may sit better in the weaker/est factions hands as a balance vs the three greater factions

I believe this is a good recipe for senate stability going forward
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 19, 2018, 07:57:38 AM
Ok cool thx.  Iím holding my ayes until the end for that technical reason, but you can tack them as the final vote to speed processing.

In the current proposal order, that won't matter: Field Consul Julius (I think I recall him being the FC) will be Deployed under the second Proposal, and any Proposal after that won't have his votes pro or con.

If you want the FC's votes to help the rest of your Proposal list, then shift his Deployment down to the final Proposal, and add that you'll declare the senate closed once he leaves.


Having said that, I'll allow Tribune play to interrupt the Proposal list, whether with vetos or with other Proposals.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 19, 2018, 10:14:01 AM
Yea to all proposals.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 19, 2018, 03:57:27 PM
For simplicities sake Iíll lay out the issues for the senate to vote on by bullet point and factions can vote in any order on each item (these are all yea/nay)

1) raise all available legions

2) place all legions under field consul vs 1st samnite war (iirc)

3) remove acilius as pontmax

4) appoint calpurnicus of the progressives as new pont max

Jason step in if Iíve messed something up

The militarists are voting all yes on proposal's #1 and 2.  However, since Julius is now off prosecuting the Saminite war, are we voting on #3 and 4, or do we have to call a roll for it? 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 19, 2018, 05:28:22 PM
For simplicities sake Iíll lay out the issues for the senate to vote on by bullet point and factions can vote in any order on each item (these are all yea/nay)

1) raise all available legions

2) place all legions under field consul vs 1st samnite war (iirc)

3) remove acilius as pontmax

4) appoint calpurnicus of the progressives as new pont max

Jason step in if Iíve messed something up

The militarists are voting all yes on proposal's #1 and 2.  However, since Julius is now off prosecuting the Saminite war, are we voting on #3 and 4, or do we have to call a roll for it?

By what he said if itís (your senator leaving Rome) not majoritied before you vote then his votes would go towards the totals until his departure is mandated... unless Iím wrong
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 19, 2018, 05:45:19 PM
Julius' votes count until he leaves Rome. After he goes to War, he (and his knights) can't vote in the Senate on further topics until he returns.

Okay, let me catch up!

Proposal #1: Spend 3x10 Talents to raise the next three available Legions from the Force Pool.

Enough Factions have voted yes for this to pass, so I'm going to process it.

Republic cash down 30 from 196 to 166. 11th, 12th, and 13th Legions are mustered to the Active Pool.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 19, 2018, 05:56:23 PM
Proposal #2: Deploy Field Consul Julius along with all 13 Legions to fight the 1st Samnite War.

Enough Factions have voted yes for this to pass, and Malize hasn't yet shifted this Proposal to a later stage in his list (after some opportunities), so I'm going to process it.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/1489/Qrjz0j.jpg)

I thought it would be appropriate for the poor little Samnites to look like Bambi about to be flattened by Godzilla...  >:D

Julius leaves Rome with all 13 Legions to attack the 1st Samnite War. Militarist voting reduces by 3 Ora and 4 knights to 9.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 19, 2018, 06:21:37 PM
Proposal #3: Remove the PontMax Office from Acilius.

This needs a vote majority greater than 66 percent. I tried my best to explain that under the current proposal order, Julius will depart from Rome taking his votes with him, and thus won't be available for voting on subsequent proposals, specifically the Acilius removal.

I want to be fair about this, because everyone still learning the game on one hand, but on the other hand a character's office (though at least not his life) is at stake.  :-\

Sending Julian out before the PontMax Removal vote, is going to reduce the resulting votes 'for' down by 7 points, to 48. AzTank has indicated in a public chat (not in this forum) that he'll be voting AGAINST removing Acilius, so every other player (aside from Az and the Frog) had to agree with all their senators to edge out over the 66% limit. With Julius gone, there's still a solid majority -- but it's only 48 out of 82 total votes, or 58.5%.

And that isn't enough, for the unique >66% rule on this voting topic, to remove Acilius.

I'll pause here to allow Malize to make an appeal that he didn't understand what I was trying to tell him about sending Julius to War removing his voting ability from the Senate on subsequent Proposals. I wasn't trying to be obtuse, exactly, but I didn't think it would be fair for me to explicitly spell out that keeping Julius' Deployment in the current Proposal order will cause the Removal Proposal to fail.  :-\
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 19, 2018, 07:44:28 PM
everyone voted on the items as given in a certain order, itíd be wrong for me to alter the order after the fact

We can chock this one up as a learning moment and Iíll accept the results they stand
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 19, 2018, 08:17:22 PM
I'll still hold off a little while for the conclusion of some p-mail discussions which might or might not make a difference.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 20, 2018, 07:04:58 AM
Consensus seems to be that the current coterie will stand pat with a couple of warning shots across the Plutocrats' bow.

And the Frog sends in from chat that Acilius will grant Furius of the Conservatives a minor priesthood, before the Senate Phase ends.

With that, I think we're done for this Phase? I'll process after work this afternoon.  O:-)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 20, 2018, 03:49:33 PM
The Frog rewards AzTankís public willingness to help him, by having Acilius grant a minor priesthood to Faction Leader Furius. Influence goes up 1 point to 9; total goes up to 15.

With nothing else useful to do, this ends the Senate Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 20, 2018, 04:11:18 PM
TURN EIGHT -- COMBAT PHASE
-----------------------------------

Julius of the Militarists vs the 1st Samnite War!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/1489/Qrjz0j.jpg)

Number of Legions: 13
Julius Mil skill: +8 (all used)
Warís land strength: -2

With a +19 Dice Roll Modifier, no other result than a Disaster, Standoff, or Victory with no casualties is possible. And the D/S chances are absolutely minimum at 3 and 18 respectively.

The dice roll functionality has still not been added back to the Groghead forum, so you'll just have to trust me as I roll the TTS dice...

2+2+6 avoids either D/S result, and would normally be a Stalemate with 3 unit casualties; but +19 thatís a win with no casualties.
Unrest -1 down to 3. Republicís income permanently increases by 10 to 60 Talents per turn. The 14th and 15th Legions are added to the logistic Force Pool. No Enemy Leader, so the Spolia Opima Event remains active. The War is discarded.

Julius increases his Popularity and Influence each by half the Warís nominal land strength of 2, so by 1 point up to 2 and 10 respectively. With no casualties, there is no Popularity lost, nor any mortality chits drawn. Julius marches home to Rome -- bringing all 13 Active Legions with him!

Now that the Early Provincial Era has arrived, surviving Legions will start to level up to Veteran capability! Since this is not a Civil War, and not a Defeat, the oldest non-Vet Legion, the 1st Legion, becomes a Veteran. Julius receives their Loyalty marker.

This ends the Combat Phase.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 20, 2018, 04:43:31 PM
TURN EIGHT -- REVOLUTION PHASE
------------------------------

So. Here we go. The main game has now started with the Early Provincial Era, and that means one Player can henceforth try to win the game all by himself by making one of his senators Emperor. The legal ways have been briefly discussed already: election or automatic appointment of a sufficiently Influential senator to the office of Consul for Life.

The other way is by revolting against the Senate and successfully prosecuting a Civil War.

This is the Phase where Players may make a Declaration of Civil War. Thatís why it was always called the Revolution Phase!

Only two kinds of senators may open a Rebellion: Governors of Provinces (which donít exist yet but which functionality has now unlocked), and Commanders returning from a Victory.

Currently, thereís only one valid potential Rebel: Julius of the Militarists. Insert historical irony here... ;)

Previously, all the Legions simply returned to the Active Pool after a Victory. Now, though, theyíre coming back with their Victorious Commander! So Julius will either hand over the Legions back to Rome, or Rebel with them.

Tripoli may choose for Julius to Rebel or not, during or after the normal cardplay of Concessions and Statesmen. But he must tell me one way or the other before I can finish this Phase and start the next Turn.

Only senators from Tripoliís Militarist Faction may join his Rebellion, but they arenít obligated to. If his Rebellion fails, theyíll die along with Julius, so having a reserve of senators is usually a good idea -- especially if they have nothing to contribute to the success of the Rebellion! Interactions between Tripoliís loyal and rebel senators will be minimized by the rules, however. Secondary rebels in the Faction cannot ever take over as the Prime Rebel.

Any rebelling senator must check how many Legions (and Fleets once you start getting those) will follow him. And each rebelling senator can (and should!) check allegiances before declaring rebellion. Once a Player declares Rebellion, it cannot be undone, even if allegiance hasnít yet been checked for some or any units.

Checking allegiance is not yet a declaration of rebellion, nor does it shift units around yet, but it must be done publicly (and so it necessarily signals to all other Players that the checking Player is thinking of Rebellion!!)

Using Tripoli as a handy example: all non-disbanded Veteran Legions whose chits the senator owns, will automatically join his Rebellion, including from the Active Pool or from other Commands (whether in the field or themselves returning Victoriously!) So he would definitely get the allegiance of the 1st Legion. If Tripoli had any Governing senators, all their Provincial army and/or navy forces (above the Base Strengths of the Province), plus all Garrison Legions, will also automatically join them in Rebellion. That includes any Veteran Garrison Legions, but the Loyalty owners of any Veterans can call them to switch sides at any time, including in the middle of a fight!

Non-veteran Legions coming back from War will then roll for loyalty to the Victorious Commander -- Julius in this example. For each unit being rolled, Julius can sacrifice 1 Talent from his personal cash (and/or from his Master of Horse if he has one), to improve his roll by 1 point. The decision on how much cash to spend must be made before the first die roll check! (For example Julius would have to dice in any case for the loyalty of all 12 other Legions heís bringing back, but heíd have to decide how many of the 2 Talents currently in his Treasury heíd spend on bribes. Each Talenton would buff the roll of one Legion.)

The unit rebels with the senator if the (possibly adjusted) roll >=5. This becomes easier in the succeeding Eras (by one point each Era)!

Should Tripoli choose to remain loyal, his Victorious senators (Julius in this case) give back all Forces to the Active Pool, including all Veteran Legions. He still retains the loyalty chits of any Legions who have become Veterans under his Command, but the Vets can now be assigned to other Commanders (including as Garrisons to Governors) for typical Force Deployments.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 20, 2018, 05:10:05 PM
Meanwhile, the usual Revolution Phase things also go on. Specifically, if anyone wants to trade or donate cards, you can do so with instant arrival at this time.

More specifically, anyone who has a Concession, or a valid Statesman to play, can play any or all of them now. I have sent p-mails to various players for various reasons.  ^-^ If you didn't get one, never mind, maybe next time.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 20, 2018, 09:00:17 PM
Despite having 13 legions under my command, I return to my humble farm after crushing Romeís enemies. Quick question. Iím really not interested in having a legion be loyal to me. If we are doing house rules, possibly on that allows a commander to forgo a loyal legion in exchange for influence may be worth considering
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 06:50:55 AM
Despite having 13 legions under my command, I return to my humble farm after crushing Romeís enemies. Quick question. Iím really not interested in having a legion be loyal to me. If we are doing house rules, possibly on that allows a commander to forgo a loyal legion in exchange for influence may be worth considering

There is a rule for this, but it requires sacrificing the Legion's veterancy. Next Turn, during your Forum Round, you can retire the Legion for a small boost in... I forget what, Oratory and Pop maybe. (Edited to specify: +1 each Inf and Ora.) The Legion can be called up again but only under certain conditions, and they lose their vet status. (Edited to specify: Disbanded Vets lose their Vet Status if the senator holding their allegiance chit dies. Otherwise they retain it, and will return as Vets. This balances them still being experienced vs. growing old and dying themselves, to be replaced by the normal logistic pool recruits.)

On the other hand, having some Vets loyal to you can make the difference in someone else's rebellion failing, since you can thereby ensure those Vets stay loyal to the Republic!

If other Players are suspicious about it, well, that's part of the game. ;) But you can get around that by making a Public Contract forbidding any or all of your current senators, or forbidding your whole Faction permanently, from ever rebelling against Rome.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 21, 2018, 09:54:47 AM
The Senate can also remove a disbanded legion's allegiance by raising it (there is one condition, all other non-disbanded legions must have been raised already). It's not clear that the associated Senator loses their Inf/Ora bonus in this case, but since they must surrender their allegiance marker and I believe the marker confers the bonus, it seems to me that's how it goes.

Disbandment happens at the start of the Revolution Phase, before a commander rebels or returns to Rome (though I suggest we let Julius do this out of sequence this turn).
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 12:10:35 PM
Yes, if the Senate votes to Recall any Disbanded Veterans, then any senators they're loyal too will lose the allegiance chit, thus also lose the Inf/Ora bonus for having Disbanded them.

The same is true if a Consul (either one) or a Dictator Recalls a Disbanded Veteran, which any of them can do at will without needing a Senatorial vote. Also, unlike the Senate, a Consul or Dictator's Recall doesn't require all normal Legions to be Raised from the Force Pool first.

(The rules explicitly say the Vet's chit goes to the Bank when Disbanded, which for TTS would mean going into the Legion Bag, where the sorting code would flip them to their first side. But for all practical purposes, Disbanded Veteran Legions go to the Force Pool anyway, so that's where I would send them. The rules are clear enough about when they can and cannot be Recalled, so being in the Force Pool shouldn't be confusing. I've been intending to clarify this in the Sabrerules but haven't gotten around to it: the Disbanded Vets might as well be in the Force Pool.)


However! -- I'll have to dispute that Disbanding happens before their Commander chooses whether or not to rebel or stay loyal. I think the rules are quite clear that the Disbanding of Veteran Legions happens after the Revolution Phase, during the subsequent Forum round of the Commander they became Veteran under (thus who owns their allegiance chit). They don't have to have become Veteran that particular Turn -- they could have become Veteran 10 Turns ago -- but the senator they're loyal to must have just Commanded them Victoriously in a War.

From my summary of the Forum Phase rules:
Quote
3.5.0) A Victorious, non-rebel Commander, who returned from War last turn, may Disband any Veteran Legions whose Allegiance chits he holds and which he commanded last turn.
3.5.1) Each such Legion's Allegiance chit flips to disbanded.
3.5.2) Each such Legion goes to the Bank (not the Force Pool), still flipped to show Veterancy. (These retired Veteran Legions may need to have a special place made on or near the board..)
3.5.3) The senator gains +1 Oratory and +1 Influence for each disbanded Legion.

(Point 2 obviously should be clarified that for simplicity's sake, the Disbanded Vet Legion goes to the Force Pool, only to be Raised again (or Recalled rather) under specific rules elsewhere.)

Julius, as our current example, or Tripoli rather playing Julius, decides first, during the Revolution Phase, whether to give the Legions, including his Veteran, back to the Republic or not. He chose not to rebel, and so to give back the Legions. They're in the Active Pool now, including the Veteran 1st Legion, and Julius has the I Legion's loyalty chit. Tripoli has the opportunity next Turn, during his Forum round, to Disband them if he wants, sending the Vet Legion to the Force Pool (in effect) and flipping his loyalty chit to show the Inf/Ora bonus.

Once he does that, only the Senate (by vote) or a Consul or Dictator (by direct command) can Raise them again. They will still be Vets if so, but Julius will lose their loyalty chit (and thus his Inf/Ora bonus).

If Julius dies while still holding their Disbanded chit, then that goes back to the bag (obviously) and in effect the Vet Legion in the Force Pool gets flipped to its normal side, become available to Raise normally again.

If Julius dies while holding the Loyalty chit (not yet Disbanded), then the Vet Legion stays Vet: it's still Active somewhere, and not in the Force Pool. But naturally the dead Julius can't call upon them any more, whether to rebel or to protect against rebellion. Nor can the new Julius when-if-ever the family returns to political action.

(The exception there would be AzTank's Conservative Faction: if he has a Statesman whose family is already politically active, thus under the Statesman, then per his Faction's special ability the family Senator inherits all chits if the Statesman dies. That includes the Loyalty / Disbanded status chit.)
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 12:49:53 PM
Meanwhile! -- welcome two new Statesmen into the fraternity of senators! Or one new Statesman and one grumpy old Statesman!  >:D

Specifically, Malize plays to his Populist mat: Marcus Portius Cato Seniorem!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6195/O60R4f.jpg)

Cato may suck at military command and (amazingly) at Influence (at least originally), but he's got a 10 Loyalty score and brings 6 votes through his Oratory! Populist vote tally goes up to 20 (which I think is the new high watermark for normal votes?) and total Influence to 12.

This is the first true Early Era Statesman we've seen, and he's showcasing a few special abilities not yet seen either. First, he's one of those Statesmen who are also a Tribune (or he has permanent access to one perhaps -- I don't recall the historical Cato being a Tribune himself). That means Malize can always throw at least one Tribune effect each Senate Phase! I'll have to create a little marker to track this (and for a few other similar Statesmen along the way), probably a little Early Tribune card  I can 'tap out' when used to show it needs recharging.

Second, he can muster another 6 Votes, pro or con, on Law Proposals. We haven't seen any Laws yet in the game, but they're coming. (If you're wondering why this is printed in blue, that's because Law Votes are an advanced rule, which yes we'll be using.) I'll talk about Laws when the time comes. All you-all need to know right now, is that they are special Scenario cards drawn while going through the Era Decks.

Third, Cato is our first example of a Statesman with a provisional Loyalty. Normally it's 10, but if he's ever in the same Faction as one of the Flaminian or Scipian Statesmen (not simply their families), then he cannot stand working with them, so his Loyalty goes to zero. That doesn't mean he immediately abandons his Faction, but it does mean his Loyalty won't count against Persuasion attempts!


The last thing to note is that his family #22 isn't politically active yet, so if he's still alive when his family card shows up, then Malize will get the card.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 01:23:33 PM
Erax correctly points out that the current (April 2018) Living Rules do state that the opportunity to Disband Vet Legions happens during the Revolution Phase, not (as I somehow thought!) during the subsequent Forum Phase.

I didn't intend that as a house rule improvement -- I really thought the Living Rules went with the Forum Phase for this -- so I have corrected the Sabrerules flowsheet accordingly over in the information thread, along with some other clarifications I had been planning anyway.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 01:36:17 PM
Moving along then to our second new Statesman...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9827/1OaMQW.jpg)

AzTank plays Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus to the Conservative Faction!

This powerhouse brings the Conservative Normal Vote Tally up to 13, and their Total Influence up to 19.

He's also familiar with Macedonian terrain, so he can void D/S results when fighting any Macedonian War!

However, notice a big distinction between the new Statesmen and the pre-Earlies here: the new Statesmen cannot void Enemy Leader D/S results. I expect the difference comes from the pre-Early expansion having been designed for the Avalon Hill rules, and these Statesmen belonging to the heavily revised and updated Valley Hill rules.

Family #19 should be showing up soon, but isn't active yet, so when their family card shows up AzTank will be able to claim it if PaulMac is still alive.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 01:50:24 PM
This effectively ends the Revolution Phase. As usual Iíll allow some retroactive card trading to automatically happen for a reasonable time; and also (since I was wrong about the timing for Disbandment) whether Tripoli chooses to sacrifice Romeís first Veteran Legion for his own political advancement. ;)

TURN NINE -- MORTALITY PHASE
----------------------------

The earliest Immanent War of each Type goes Active now: specifically the 2nd Samnite War. It has no Enemy Leader.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8378/1Rg0us.jpg)

The 3rd (and final) Samnite War remains Immanent for now.

As you may notice, the 2nd Samnite War is a little more likely to cause D/S problems, especially Disasters (12.5% chance) -- but once beaten, the Republic permanently benefits from a massive increase in yearly income and logistic capabilities.



Shuffling the Sack of Death pulls a blank, no effect.

Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 02:43:46 PM
TURN NINE -- REVENUE PHASE
--------------------------

Iím going to test a house rule going forward, that minor priesthoods each generate 1 Talent of income. Currently there isnít much ongoing reason to care about being a priest, and itís odd that the PontMax can earn up to 6 Talents each Turn while the minor priests get nothing. If Players generally hate this change, donít worry, I can change it back.

First Revenue segment, Faction Incomes!

I.I.ís Aristocrats have 9 starting cash; +25 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +7 knight income; +2+2 Tax Farming; +3 Harbor Fees; +1 minor priest
= new Faction total 54 Talents!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7700/ZhRrJL.jpg)


Tripoliís Militarists have 4 starting cash; +16 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +7 knight income; +2+2 Tax Farming
= new Faction total 36 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/240/RYVDS5.jpg)


The Frogís Plutocrats have 4 starting cash; +9 personal cash; 5+1+1 senator (Plutocrat bonus) income; +7+7 (Plutocrat bonus) knight income; +1 priest income; 1d6 = +1 PontMax income
= new Faction total 36 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4639/45QGhm.jpg)


AzTankís Conservatives have 36 starting cash; +2 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +4 knight income; +2 priests income
= new Faction total 49 Talents!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/2716/fwFavv.jpg)


Malizeís Populists have 3 starting cash; 0 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +3 knight income; +3 Mining Concession
= new Faction total 14 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/8899/pd8dfS.jpg)


Eraxís Progressives have 0 starting cash; +16 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +3 knight income; +2+2 Tax Farming
= new Faction Total 28 Talents.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/3513/h3I4k6.jpg)

Rome currently has 166 Talents, with a new normal income of 60 Talents, and with standing expenses of -2x13 units and -10 for an Active War.



2nd Income Segment now starts: Faction distributions and possibly donations, whether to each other or -- for an Inf boost -- to the Republic. (1 Inf for 10 Talents; 3 for 25; 7 for 50.)

Players should also plan ahead for which senator will try to persuade a knight (and how much personal cash to sacrifice); and some Players may wish to consider shifting their Faction Leader.

Moreover, Sponsoring Games remains available for one senator per Faction, and there's still an uncommitted family Senator hanging around in the Forum to be Persuaded...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/6218/nKQJiK.jpg)

...although his smug 28 Talents will make that super hard! Keep in mind that a senator can only spend personal cash bribing a senator for Persuasion, while other Factions counter-bribe with Faction cash. (Which is how Sulpy there got so rich as to be practically independent from Factional influence. ;) )
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 21, 2018, 03:00:46 PM
7 to junius for games (bonus to Cato)
5 to Cato for knight

Faction leader to Cato
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on December 21, 2018, 03:36:04 PM
9 per senator, the rest in faction. 
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 21, 2018, 05:04:59 PM
All three of my senators will make a donation of 10 talents (bonus influence to Cornelius). Of the remainder, 15 to Cornelius, 5 to Quinctius.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 05:14:47 PM
All three of my senators will make a donation of 10 talents (bonus influence to Cornelius). Of the remainder, 15 to Cornelius, 5 to Quinctius.

This is a genius way to exploit his Faction's special ability, by the way; and yes, I've double checked, it's entirely legal for multiple senators to donate to the Republic per Turn. Some other things, like Sponsoring Games or Persuading a knight or Persuading a senator, can only be done once per Turn (though all of those could be done by the same senator). But everyone can donate.

Having said that, Corny can't take all three Aristocratic bonus farmed influence, because he himself is generating one of those bonus points. He can take two points (from the other two guys), but his bonus point has to go to one of them.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 21, 2018, 05:23:17 PM
I thought I started with 12 cash, +12 income = 24? If so, 15 Flaminius, 3 to each of the others, 3 in FT.

If it is 28, then 16 to Flaminius, 4 to each of the others and 4 in FT.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 21, 2018, 05:40:43 PM
I thought I started with 12 cash, +12 income = 24? If so, 15 Flaminius, 3 to each of the others, 3 in FT.

If it is 28, then 16 to Flaminius, 4 to each of the others and 4 in FT.

You definitely had.... oh, bugger. 3 senators times 4 personal cash each = 12 not 16. Lord help me, I genuinely cannot be trusted with even the simplest math.  :pullhair:
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 21, 2018, 06:24:55 PM
All three of my senators will make a donation of 10 talents (bonus influence to Cornelius). Of the remainder, 15 to Cornelius, 5 to Quinctius.

This is a genius way to exploit his Faction's special ability, by the way; and yes, I've double checked, it's entirely legal for multiple senators to donate to the Republic per Turn. Some other things, like Sponsoring Games or Persuading a knight or Persuading a senator, can only be done once per Turn (though all of those could be done by the same senator). But everyone can donate.

Having said that, Corny can't take all three Aristocratic bonus farmed influence, because he himself is generating one of those bonus points. He can take two points (from the other two guys), but his bonus point has to go to one of them.
Right, Quinctius will take that one.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 21, 2018, 08:10:18 PM
25 to Aelius, 5 each to Julius  6 to faction cash
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 22, 2018, 11:15:44 AM
25 to Aelius, 5 each to Julius  6 to faction cash

By "5 each" you would normally mean to each of the other two guys, but mathematically you mean 5 to Julius and none to Manlius keeping 6 in Faction cash. Right?
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on December 22, 2018, 03:47:26 PM
 I will give 4 to each of my guys   Paulus will spend 2 to get knight.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 22, 2018, 07:01:04 PM
That ended segment 2.

Segment 3, Republic income: 196 starting cash; +60 income; -2x13 Legions; -10 Active War (Immanent Wars donít cost anything) = new Republic total 220 Talents!

This ends the Revenue Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 22, 2018, 07:22:19 PM
TURN NINE -- FORUM PHASE
------------------------

The Spolia Opima Event remains active in the Forum. No other events to discard.

Malize controls the HRAO, so will start the rounds, rolling a 2+6 which isnít a 7, so he draws a Scenario card: a red-text Faction card to his hand face down (his 3rd card).

Malize (per prior instructions) will shift Faction leader to Cato, and sacrifice his 5 for Catoís first knight. (Vote tally up to 21.) Junius will sacrifice his 7 for Level 1 games (unrest down 1 to 2; popularity up 1 to 3, vote tally up 1 to 22), and give the extra Popularity point spawned (per Populist ability) to Cato for his first pop point (vote tally up 1 again to 23).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 22, 2018, 08:12:33 PM
Eraxís Progressives roll a 4+2, which isnít a 7 the other way around, and draws a Scenario card:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/2360/RpCLjS.jpg)

The 1st Punic War!

Now things are about to get real.  >:D

As you can see from the white border, as well as the format change, this is the first Early War card weíve drawn; and incidentally also the very first card, 001, of the whole main Republic-of-Rome card set! The format of these cards are a little different and more complex than what weíve seen so far, so Iíll take some time to discuss it.

As with the prior War cards from the fan expansion, each set of main-game War cards features a unique graphic, the charging elephant with spearmen for the Punics. On the bottom right corner, as noted, is simply the serial number, 001 in this case. (This is how I also checked to make sure I had scanned all the cards.) Above it is a stack of ď35Ē coins: the spoils for Victory over this War. The D/S numbers you should already understand to be the 3d6 combat dice totals which will trigger a Disaster or Standoff. For this war, however, there are two possible Standoff triggers: 11 and 13!

Above that, are three numbers. The crossed sword-number at the top is the Land Strength, represented on prior wars with a shield and sword in the bottom right corner. So far the toughest War in front of the Republic was the 3rd Samnite war, Immanent for next Turn, at 8. Now youíve got a Force 10 War to deal with.

Worse, and perhaps more importantly, this is a Naval War which will require fleets; meaning that Fleet capability has now been unlocked! Just like historically, the Republic starts with no fleets. Your logistic capability for Fleets mirrors your Legions, so Iím putting 15 Fleets into the Force Pool. Theyíll cost 10 Talents each to Raise, just like Legions; and 2 Talents each Turn for upkeep, just like Legions. They cannot ever become Veteran, however. (Nor can they be sent to Garrison a Province.)

The anchor with the 5 next to it, means that in order to attack this War you must send 5 Fleets with your Commander and Legions: youíre anchoring off the coast as a logistic supply train.

The ship with the 10 next to it, means that before you can attack this war you will have to score a victory over a Force 10 Naval Strength! Youíll need Fleets to do that, just like Legions for fighting a Land War. You can bring Legions along, if youíre confident (or desperate) about punching through the Enemy Fleets, but the Legions canít help in the sea battle, and theyíll take casualties equal to your Fleets. The advantage is that if you do have Legions with you, and if you have the minimum sea logistic level remaining (5 Fleets in this case), your Commander can go on immediately to attack the War on Land. And just like a Land War, a Commander will score personal glory for a Naval Victory. Also like a Land War, once you score a Naval Victory against a War, you never need to worry about that particular Naval Fight again; but also like a Land War, there is no such thing as eroding the Enemy Naval Strength. It will always be 10 until you gain Victory over it; and usually it will be eroding away Romeís Fleets meanwhile.

You may notice thereís no War Cost printed on this card. Thatís because all Wars in the main rules -- meaning from this War onward -- will cost 20 Talents, not 10 (like the remaining Samnite Wars), per Turn during the Revenue Phase.

The card in the upper left side clearly states there are 3 Wars in the set of ďPunic WarsĒ. The 2 in parenthesis afterward, means you can expect two of those Wars in this Era. Just like the Samnite Wars, Early Era Wars wonít evaporate if theyíre still around when the Middle Era starts! -- so itís theoretically possible you could be fighting all three Wars at once (though youíre lucky to get this one early so theyíll be spread out more.)

The middle of the left side indicates that this War starts Inactive, where Iíve slotted it on the board. Itíll stay here, not causing trouble, until the 2nd Punic War comes along, or until you attack it -- or until a Punic Enemy Leader arrives! (The card doesnít mention this, but an Enemy Leader will immediately Activate it.)

This is the first War weíve seen in the game, where defeating it will create a Province -- in this case, two Provinces! Weíll cross those bridges when we get to them.

Last, but not least, just like the pre-Early Matching Wars, simultaneous Wars of a set will multiply each otherís Land and Fleet strengths by the number of Active Matching Wars!

Phew! Thatís enough to chew on for the new War cards. ...oh, one more thing: senators acting as Commanders are not so much field commanding as providing logistic and other support efficiencies for their Force. So any senator will be equally effective at Fleet command as at Legion command.

Erax didnít give me any instructions, so Iíll pause to hear from him.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 23, 2018, 12:57:04 AM
Flaminius spends 5 for a guaranteed Knight.
Title: Re: Italian Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 23, 2018, 05:02:29 AM
25 to Aelius, 5 each to Julius  6 to faction cash

By "5 each" you would normally mean to each of the other two guys, but mathematically you mean 5 to Julius and none to Manlius keeping 6 in Faction cash. Right?


Yes.  I had intended to give 5 to Julius and Manlius, with one in faction cash but changed my mind.  25 to Aelius, 5 to Julius, 0 to Manlius, 6 to Faction cash
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 23, 2018, 09:02:15 AM
Flaminius spends 5 of his 15 cash for a guaranteed 3rd knight (Normal Vote Tally up to 9), and things move along.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 23, 2018, 09:03:10 AM
I.I.ís Aristocrats roll 3+6, which isnít 7, so he draws a Scenario card: a red-text Faction card face down to his hand (his only one currently). I've sent you a pmail to show what you drew, and under what circumstances you can play it.

I donít have further instructions from I.I. yet so Iíll have to pause here.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 23, 2018, 09:24:25 AM
5 on a knight to Quinctius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 23, 2018, 12:10:48 PM
Tripoliís Militarists roll 5+2=7, so thatís a random Event! Further 3d6 roll of 2+5+6=13, on the Early Republic table means... gosh, another Allied Enthusiasm!

I'm not sure I've posted the new Random Event table yet, so:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/7595/ChL1P9.jpg)

Here's what the new main-game Random Event cards look like.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9472/Ahi2xU.jpg)

This game has had the best luck in random events, I swear. ;)

I've dropped a little marker for the event near the Republic Treasury to resolve next Turn.

Tripoli didn't leave me any instructions, so I'll pause here.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on December 23, 2018, 12:13:04 PM
What does donating to the republic accomplish?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 23, 2018, 01:59:53 PM
Donating to the Republic, aside from giving the Republic extra cash to pay bills with (and thus avoiding a game-loss condition), earns a senator Influence points (because the donations must come from personal treasuries at the time they receive their income distributions.)

Plutocrat senators have picked up several Influence points over the game so far, doing just this!

I.I. figured out that it was more cost-effective for him to use the Aristocrat special ability by having each of his senators Contribute 10 talents, even though a senator only needs to donate 25 to get 3 Influence points, because the Aristocrats farm influence gains.

For everyone else, to get 3 Influence by donation, a senator should donate 25 Talents, although if you want to spread the gain out you can still donate 10 talents per senator. (Similarly one senator donating 50 Talents can get 7 Influence, which would normally cost 70 talents spread out through multiple senators.)

The Aristocrats, however, generate one extra influence point each time one of their senators gains any amount of influence. So for I.I., 30 Talents spread out 10 each didn't only give him 3 Influence points (spread out 1 Inf each). It actually got him six Influence points for a cost of only 30 Talents!

Technically, Valerius scored 1 Inf, and earned another 1 Inf to give to another senator, which he gave to Cornelius. Quincy scored 1 Inf, and earned another 1 Inf to give to another senator, which he also gave to Cornelius. Then Cornelius scored an Inf point himself, earning another 1 to give to another senator, which he gave to Quinctius.

This Influence farming is only available to the Aristocrats, and it's connected to their knight-activist special ability, which only activates if the Aristocrats have the highest total Influence among the Factions. (The idea here is that Aristocrat knights convince other invisible senators to vote with the Aristocrats based on supporting the winners. ;) That's because Influence is the ultimate scoring factor for the game.)


Donating cash to the Republic's Treasury can only be done during the Revenue Phase, which has already passed for this Turn. But I always try to remind Players during the Faction Income segment what the standard Influence gains are for contributing cash to the Republic's Treasury.  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 23, 2018, 03:14:17 PM


Tripoli didn't leave me any instructions, so I'll pause here.

Sorry.  Julius buys a knight with 5.   I had intended Aelius to selflessly donates 25 to Rome for the Fleets/war effort we will have to raise for Carthage. (and for the 3 influence he gets from it)  However, apparently that phase has passed, so Aelius will just sit here and be rich.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 23, 2018, 08:09:03 PM
Julius spends all 5 of his cash to automatically buy his 5th knight, increasing his Mil skill to freaking 9. :o Vote tally goes up to 17.

The Frogís Plutocrats roll a 2+4, which isnít 7 and so he draws a Scenario: a third Faction card face down to his hand. I've sent him a private chat about it.

I don't have instructions from him yet on what he wants to do, so I'll pause here. AzTank should also be thinking about his plans, since he'll be up next and last for this Turn.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 24, 2018, 07:38:16 AM
Julius spends all 5 of his cash to automatically buy his 5th knight, increasing his Mil skill to freaking 9.

That nine military skill will come in very handy here shortly with the Punic wars.  IMHO, depending on the card pulls, we could find ourselves fighting several 8+ strength wars simultaneously.  My idea is that with the maximum number of legions available, Julius and Manlius and effectively prosecute possibly two strong wars simultaneously
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 24, 2018, 08:18:35 AM
This is, indeed, the strength of the Militarists! -- and their political strength, too.

Which comes with political tensions naturally.  >:D Are the other Players so worried about losing that they'll elect the Militarists to Consuls (and/or appoint a Militarist as Dictator plus Master of Horse perhaps), over and over again?

Even if Tripoli binds himself with a Contract never to have any or some or all of his senators seek to be Emperor, he'll be vacuuming up Influence (and Popularity) that the other Players will be missing out on...
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 24, 2018, 08:21:58 AM
Meanwhile, Acilius of the Plutocrats sacrifices 5 of his 9 cash to automatically buy his 2nd minion. Faction vote tally goes up to 15.

I'm still on pause until the Frog clarifies another choice though (having to do with sponsoring games).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 24, 2018, 08:55:32 AM
The Frog's choice on this matter can't affect going forward with AzTank's round, so...

AzTankís Conservatives, going last Round this Turn, roll 2+3, not 7, so draws the final Scenario for this Turn: the Enemy Leader Hamilcar! He immediately joins or activates the earliest available Punic War, i.e. the 1st Punic.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4677/zZbUuS.jpg)

Merry Yule Tide.  >:D

Per prior instructions, Paulus will gamble 2 of his 4 cash on a knight. Heíll thus need 4 or more (50/50 shot) on a 1d6... but he rolls a 1. My condolences.

This technically ends the Forum Phase, but Iíll need that clarification from the Frog first about the Games before I continue into the Population Phase (and start the Senate), since the Pop Phase will be affected by his choice.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on December 24, 2018, 05:32:24 PM
I will sponsor games, yes.  Fulvius to do the most expensive games he can afford. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 24, 2018, 05:46:40 PM
That'll be Level 1 games for 7 cash. I'll process eventually, but expect some Christmas delays over the next few days...  :coolsmiley:
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 25, 2018, 04:02:04 AM
And now we have two numbers for Disaster and three for Standoff.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 25, 2018, 08:42:22 AM
And now we have two numbers for Disaster and three for Standoff.

True, although if you send a Statesman who's good against the Punic Wars, you can at least nullify those D/S numbers. Enemy D/S cannot be nullified (as far as I know).

Edited to add: I might be able to process the most recent information, down through the Population Phase, into the start of the Senate Phase, this afternoon. If not, it will almost surely not be until tomorrow night, or even Thursday afternoon! -- so if there's a delay, don't worry, the delay is expected (Christmas holidays etc.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 25, 2018, 09:04:11 AM



Meanwhile, y'all can be making preliminary plans about the Consuls -- and about a couple of new offices which have always been potentially possible but which are now valid for the first time: the Dictator and his Master of Horse! That's because you have at least one War with a combined Land and Naval Strength of 20+. (The other condition is to have 3 or more Active Wars, edging up or over the threshold for losing the game!)

The Dic ;) is usually appointed by agreement of the Consuls (and cannot be one of them). Nor can their appointment be vetoed, since it isn't a vote. If they can't agree, then the Senate goes to the normal Proposal process for the Dictator.

Whoever gets elected Dictator will be HRAO, and PM, until and unless he closes the Senate or resigns as PM to leave for War. His Proposals still have to be voted on, but they cannot be vetoed. Like the Consuls he can be Deployed to a War, though strictly speaking he doesn't have to be. Like them if he's still at War at the end of the Combat Phase, he becomes a Proconsul. (There can be any number of Proconsuls out fighting Wars, but a hard limit on three senators going to War in any Turn: the Dictator and the two Consuls.)

The Dictator can (not sure if he must) appoint another senator (not necessarily voluntarily, I'll have to check!) as his Master of Horse, to add Mil skill buffs (but no special abilities) while following him to a War. The MoH can be killed (or captured) just like the Dictator, but doesn't gain any rewards for helping out. At the end of the Combat Phase he comes back to Rome regardless of the result (assuming he survives), since he can only serve a Dictator and the Dictator will either be coming home or staying as a Proconsul. In that sense you can have an absolute maximum of four senators Deploying for War on any Turn (though again, any number of senators can actually be at War as Proconsuls. Or sometimes as Province Governors: some Wars attack Provinces, although the current ones on the table don't.)

The Censor will have to be elected, too. Remember that senators can be immediately re-elected as Censor as often as they're able; the same is true for Dictator. (In fact, Censors can be elected as Dictator, though then they have to give up the Censor office. I think that's true for PontMax-es being elected or appointed as Dictator, too.)

So, y'all have a lot of choices to be pondering over the holidays! -- and two more Legions, if I recall correctly, in the Force Pool, which can be Raised to help with the problem. Plus 15 Fleets!

Keep in mind, that while the Punic War will cost 20 Talents per turn, it won't really hurt anything otherwise (aside from a point of unrest if it isn't prosecuted). In fact, YOU MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO ATTACK IT THIS TURN ANYWAY! -- you've got to punch through its Naval Strength of 10 first. With no navy, currently. Fleets, like Legions, cost 10 Talents each to Raise. (And yes, Enemy Leaders buff their basic Naval Strength, too.)

Whereas, if you diddle around on the Samnite War, you're going to be looking at the 3rd Samnite War joining it next Turn for sure! -- doubling each other's Land Strengths! But: the Samnite Wars will grant permanent boosts to Rome's economic income and logistic capabilities. Relatedly, you can keep in mind that the Immanent Samnite War can be attacked this Turn (if you're willing to deal with it automatically doubling its and the 2nd War's strengths!)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 26, 2018, 06:15:02 AM
If a Dictator is also pontmax, it wouldn't make much sense for a pontmax who was elected dictator to give up the pontmax position...unless he plans on going to war with armies. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 26, 2018, 08:42:32 AM
Side note:   If we raise 15 fleets is that gonna cost 150 talents?
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 26, 2018, 10:46:49 AM
Yep, 15 Fleets x 10 Talents per Fleet = 150 Talents!

I think you've got two Legions in the Force Pool, too.

If you punch out the 2nd Samnite War this Turn, you'll upgrade your Force Pool again by... I'm not where I can check easily, it's on the card. Four units? More than usual for gaining logistic territory so far. It'll be both Legions and Fleets.

So, checking the Living Rules: Dictator candidates cannot hold any major office except the Censor, which he then must resign if becoming Dictator. So no, the PontMax cannot (as such) become Dictator, though he can participate in a vote to remove him from that office I suppose. However! -- Removing the PontMax from office (and then assigning a new one) falls under Other Business, and the Dictator appointment/election must precede Censor election. (I'll need to update the Sabrerule compilation flowchart to clarify PontMax cannot be Dictator.)

So, using Acilius as our current example, he can't be appointed or elected as PontMax this Turn, but if he was Removed from office he could be appointed or elected next Turn.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 26, 2018, 11:14:01 AM
Holy cow.  Good thing weíve been lucky with money
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 26, 2018, 12:02:45 PM
We've been incredibly lucky with money.

I was going to wait until after Consul elections and the Censor's bit before weighing in on the war situation, but might as well do it now. Considering we have another T$ 50 in extra income arriving next turn, I say we raise everything, then send the fleets vs. Carthage and the legions vs. the Samnites. This will postpone any disputes over who gets to shoot for the Spolia Opima to next turn.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 26, 2018, 01:12:15 PM
Whoever goes after the Punic Fleets, needs to be ready to fight against 13 Fleets in effect (since Ham's +3 bonus will help them, too). All the D/S risks will apply to the naval battle as well.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 26, 2018, 06:56:00 PM
Trying to do some quick catchup tonight before bed. (Early work tomorrow.)

Looking back over the Living Rules again more closely, the question of PontMax office doubling up is sorrrrt of vague (which is why I originally allowed it in the Sabrerule compilation flowchart.) Usually the Living Rules keep Advanced rules (the 2.x set) in mind, listing exceptions or references in light blue. But the rules for office candidacy don't mention the PontMax one way or another; and the PontMax rules say simply that candidates must be aligned senators (i.e. being played by a Player) in Rome.

The implications of the grammar are somewhat contradictive. The main rules clearly state that candidates for various offices above PontMax cannot be currently holding other Major Offices except Censor -- and PontMax in the 2.01.x rules is explicitly a Major Office. But the PontMax qualifications do not state that other Major Offices disqualify candidates, and do not state that a winner must resign from his current Major Office! This fits actual historical examples where the PontMax was also Consul or Dictator or whatever. But then again it would be super-pointless for a senator to continue being PontMax if he leaves Rome for War (or for Governorship -- until legates are introduced later in the game anyway, allowing senators to govern while remaining in Rome for Senate participation.)

There's a similar problem with the Dictator appointing his Master of Horse: there are literally no qualifications listed that I could find! There's a definite implication that some senator fills this duty, because the rules treat the MoH as a separate entity from the Dictator (for example gaining +3 influence, and returning to Rome at the end of the Combat Phase regardless of what's happening with the Dictator.) But nothing seems to state how the MoH is chosen, or his qualifications. The faint inference is that the Dictator simply appoints him by fiat. Usually this sort of action is qualified by stating that the candidate must be a volunteer: Consuls cannot force a senator to be Dictator, for example, and a prosecuted senator cannot force someone to be his Advocate (nor the Censor force a senator to be Prosecutor). But the faint implication here is that the Dictator can force anyone to be his MoH for the Turn, whether in Rome or not, or even if unaligned (like Suply hanging out in the Forum with a ton of cash right now)! It's freaky.... I feel like I must be overlooking something somewhere.

Any other rulehounds want to research these concepts, too, be my guest!! One way or another I've got to provide clear, rational, and feasible rules for these factors going forward.


My provisional compromise so far has been that any other Major Office can also be elected PontMax, and that the PontMax can be elected or appointed to any other (otherwise valid) Major Office (for example the PontMax can be elected Censor but only if also a Prior Consul since that's the main qualification to be Censor); and that these Major Offices can be held concurrently; BUT the PontMax cannot leave Rome including to be a Governor (except by legate later).

Whereas the Dictator must appoint a volunteer as MoH unless no one volunteers, whereupon he can appoint a senator by fiat as long as the senator is not a Governoring at a Province or Captive. That includes Proconsuls already at War, and any Major Offices including PontMax, and unaligned senators in the Forum. That's because the MoH is an entirely temporary office and the senator returns to Rome almost immediately. Consequently he can keep his normal office, just not operate it while off at War for a Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 26, 2018, 07:21:08 PM
Fulvius of the Plutocrats catches up on asynch, and pays 7 cash to Sponsor some level-1 Games. Unrest goes down 1 to 1. Fulvís Pop goes up 1 to 2.

This effectively ends the Forum Phase.

TURN NINE -- POPULATION PHASE
-----------------------------

Cleaning up Rome:

All senators with Major Office gain Major Suspicion.

No Tax Farming Concessions are threatened yet. (A War must be attacking Italy itself for that to happen; 1st Punic War is fought in Sicily and Sardinia.

The Fabian family is the only card waiting in the Curia to respawn. Need a 5 or 6, but they rolled a 2.

No Unprosecuted Wars and no Drought Effects, so no Unrest adjustments prior to the State of the Republic speech. The current HRAO is Roman Consul Junius of the Populists. Itís impossible to roll a game-losing result with him as HRAO, and he gets a +4 bonus as a Populist senator. Unrest -1 plus his Pop 3 plus his Faction bonus 4 = +6 to the 3d6 total of... 5+2+1. Total result 14, no change!

With that, the Senate opens. Junius is the Presiding Magistrate.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 26, 2018, 08:34:18 PM
TURN NINE -- SENATE PHASE
-------------------------

STATE OF THE REPUBLIC:
----------------------------

The Republic currently has 196 Talents, with an income of 60, and more Allied Enthusiasm about to add another 50 next Turn. Current expected expenses are -10 and -20 for Active Wars, and -10 for an Immanent War which will activate before the Revenue Phase next Turn. Expected expenses also include -2 x 13 Active Legions. (Vets cost nothing extra for upkeep, though really they should.)

There's a Spolia Opima historical Event in the Forum, and strictly speaking it doesn't distinguish between Land and Naval Victories against an Enemy Leader! However, neither does the prologue fan expansion feature naval battles at all. And, to be fair, while the rules mentioned a Spolia Opima event, they forgot to include any details for it, so its details are totally my invention anyway. ;) So I'm going to rule that claiming it must require a Land Victory over an Enemy Leader, which is certainly the spirit of the event anyway. (I'll try to remember to clarify this rule on the card text soon.)

Unrest is currently 1.


Here's the Immanent War again for convenience:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8378/1Rg0us.jpg)

And the two Active Wars plus Enemy Leader:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7067/ksWJko.jpg)


And now the Player mats.

I.I.ís Aristocrats have jusssssssst barely edged back into first place, with three well-developed senators, a normal voting tally of 15, a total influence of 50 (the new high watermark if Iím not mistaken), and activist knights for another 8 votes on any topic pro or con -- so effectively 23 votes in the senate (for now). He has also angled leadership over the majority coaltion of minors after the Frogís Plutocrats got too backstabby and overt about concentrating power. Whether or how long he can keep this lead remains to be seen.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9791/NgEKbF.jpg)


Tripoliís Militarists donít have the raw Influence of the top two (yet), and their 15 votes can never call on any activism. But they have a lot of cash on the board and, more importantly, their increasing military skill makes them proportionately important picks for Consuls and Dictator at a time when Wars against the Republic are ramping up. This makes them a strong 3rd place; and they wonít likely stay there for much longer!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/8384/yVZeA4.jpg)


On the balance, I still have to acknowledge 2nd Place to the Frogís Plutocrats. Their 15 votes can never be punched up with activism, but heís generating ever-more-extra cash off his minions; and his senators remain highly influential at a total of 49. He still retains the Pontifex Maximus lifetime office despite clear threats to remove him. And he still retains three cards in his hand, two of which he has held for many turns back into the Latin Era. His main drawback is having lost the leadership he finagled of the three minor factions, isolating himself with the Conservative Party whose downfall he helped precipitate through the first judicial execution a few Turns ago! The Plutocrats may be in a retrenching mode of sorts now, but still command the second most overall powerful faction.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/4668/nFnkYU.jpg)


AzTankís Conservatives are still rebuilding in 5th place after crippling punches of bad luck and treachery; but he has been carefully (one might say conservatively) shepherding the largest Faction Treasury in the game, and he has recently signed on the super-statesman Paullus Macedonicus, who could be considered an effective alternative to granting the Militarists ever-more-power (at least not in a crisis). He has been waved off as irrelevant for a while, however, which has cornered his contributions and growth.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4228/RyqS1y.jpg)


In some ways, Malizeís Populists could be considered third-and-a-half place -- or even higher than third for most practical purposes! His 23 votes can be securely applied on any topic pro or con without the fickleness of the friends of the Aristocratic knights, and he continues to motor along toward his upper popularity limit. His bad luck early in a late start has finally evaporated, and at long last he has signed on a third senator: no less than the super-statesman Cato the Elder! The top three Players may keep a (shuffly) hold on the top three slots for a while, but the Populists are a voting powerhouse to be sought after. (Which has gained them the Roman Consulship for the first time going into this Senate.)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5371/Fah5dL.jpg)


Eraxís Progressives remain in 6th place, unable to shake off the cursed luck of early Turns in their late start. But theyíre growing steadily stronger; and with Eraxís precision and commitment to balancing power across the board, his Factionís influence carries significantly more weight in Republican governance than his stats alone would suggest!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/6900/vxnStP.jpg)


Relatedly, I will be instituting a house-rule adjustment to the Progressive special abilities. Each senator with activist knight votes will now receive +1 Influence win or lose (not +2 for winning only), or +4 Influence win or lose voting critically (for harm or against gain) against gain or for harm of one of his own senators (not only winning Prosecution vote against himself). This will make his activist abilities more relevant -- and more of a temptation to use, to improve his position faster.

To recap the Progressive activist knight triggers, they each bring an extra vote (beyond their own normal vote) for voting against a senatorís gain, or for a senatorís harm, or when voting on any law pro or con, or when voting for (not against) land bills.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 27, 2018, 10:29:38 AM
Proposing the honorable Cornelius as field consul, Julius as Roman consul

I believe they will be proposing their censor, correct?



 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 27, 2018, 11:04:28 AM
We vote in favor.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 27, 2018, 11:22:15 AM
Proposing the honorable Cornelius as field consul, Julius as Roman consul

I believe they will be proposing their censor, correct?

Julius as the PM would be proposing the Censor. Cornelius has no say in that beyond the normal vote of any other senator. (Unless his Player plays a Tribune to make his own Proposition for Censor.)

Together however, the Consuls might be appointing a Dictator! -- you do have that option under the current circumstances. (i.e. you've got at least one Active War with a combined Naval/Land strength of 20+.)

This Turn, first Mandatory Business will be Consul-pair election. (And then between them they work out who will be Roman and Field, though it's okay to signal you've worked that out already in your proposal.)

Second Mandatory Business would be PontMax election but Acilius is still PontMax.

Third Mandatory Business will be Dictator appointment or election (if a Consul agreement about who should be Dictator cannot be reached). If the Consuls decide the Republic doesn't need a Dictator this Turn, then a Tribune can't Propose one either.

Fourth Mandatory business will be the Dictator choosing a Master of Horse -- if there's a Dictator.

Fifth Mandatory Business will be the Roman Consul (or the Dictator if there is one now) Proposing and electing a Censor. The current Censor can be re-elected.

Sixth Mandatory Business will be the Censor deciding whether to Prosecute suspicions this Turn.

Seventh Mandatory Business would be electing Governors for Provinces, but the Republic doesn't have a 'province' yet. (All conquered territory so far is within Rome's direct governance.)

That's all the possible Mandatory Business categories, and it must be done in that sequence. Anything else is Other Business, and can be done in any sequence AFTER Mandatory Business is settled.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 27, 2018, 12:23:00 PM
Thanks, I know thatís probably posted somewhere but it helps :)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 27, 2018, 01:24:55 PM
The Aristocrats vote in favour.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 27, 2018, 07:32:43 PM
Argh, backing up a little. I forgot that Julius has already been Field Consul last time, so he can't be either one of the Consuls this time!

Malize remains Roman Consul for now, and must Propose someone else as co-Consul with Cornelius (or another pair altogether).

Don't count Julius out of the action this Turn, though! -- the two new Consuls might decide Rome needs a Dictator, who can also go to War and who will become the Presiding Magistrate until then. And he would need a Master of Horse, so some other high Mil senator could be honored with that post! -- and help put the whomp on the Punic Fleet.

Actually, the most efficient choices would be anyone with a decent Mil for Field Consul, literally anyone else for Roman Consul -- possibly someone from the Plutocrats or the Populists again in case of financial or unrest disaster -- and then Julius for Dictator with Manlius as his Master of Horse. I wouldn't normally make such direct recommendations like this, but I'm partially responsible for not noticing the problem with nominating Julius for Consul again earlier.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 27, 2018, 08:21:24 PM
Either of my other senators could be console as neitherhe was last turn   That would ready Julius for the Carthaginians next turn
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 27, 2018, 09:26:16 PM
Proposing the honorable Cornelius as field consul, Manlius as Roman consul
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on December 28, 2018, 01:42:17 AM
Our vote remains in favor.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 28, 2018, 04:10:59 PM
I don't think I.I. is going to object (and even if he did, you might have a solid majority already). So I'll proceed.

Cornelius goes up 5 Influence from 15 to 20; and the Aristocrats farm an extra Influence point to be given to someone other than Corny. Faction total Influence will be 56 after this is assigned. (I.I. should tell me where to put the extra point.)

Manlius goes up 5 Influence from 13 to 18; Militarist new total 40 Influence.

Manlius takes over as Presiding Magistrate (and the new HRAO).


Next Mandatory Business is: should a Dictator be appointed (or voted) this Turn? The Dictator is a very temporary point, NOT an Emperor, and would be the new PM (and HRAO); but he would be able to lead a Force of his own to War, along with drafting a senator to boost his headquarters efficiency (in effect) as Master of Horse.

To be appointed without a vote, both the Consuls must agree on the nominee.

To be appointed with a vote, both the Consuls must at least agree that the Republic needs a Dictator even though they cannot agree on who; allowing the PM to open the floor for Proposals.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 29, 2018, 05:54:21 AM
...Next Mandatory Business is: should a Dictator be appointed (or voted) this Turn? The Dictator is a very temporary point, NOT an Emperor, and would be the new PM (and HRAO); but he would be able to lead a Force of his own to War, along with drafting a senator to boost his headquarters efficiency (in effect) as Master of Horse.

To be appointed without a vote, both the Consuls must agree on the nominee.

To be appointed with a vote, both the Consuls must at least agree that the Republic needs a Dictator even though they cannot agree on who; allowing the PM to open the floor for Proposals.

I believe we have agreed that no dictator is needed this turn.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 29, 2018, 08:18:00 AM
...Next Mandatory Business is: should a Dictator be appointed (or voted) this Turn? The Dictator is a very temporary point, NOT an Emperor, and would be the new PM (and HRAO); but he would be able to lead a Force of his own to War, along with drafting a senator to boost his headquarters efficiency (in effect) as Master of Horse.

To be appointed without a vote, both the Consuls must agree on the nominee.

To be appointed with a vote, both the Consuls must at least agree that the Republic needs a Dictator even though they cannot agree on who; allowing the PM to open the floor for Proposals.

I believe we have agreed that no dictator is needed this turn.
This is correct.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 29, 2018, 09:57:36 AM
Next Mandatory Business then is the Proposal and election of the Censor.

Keep in mind that the Censor can be re-elected: the office doesn't have to switch senators every Turn.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on December 30, 2018, 07:26:05 PM
I nominate flaminus for censer
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on December 30, 2018, 07:28:42 PM
Voting yes
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 30, 2018, 07:38:56 PM
I feel pretty safe assuming Erax will agree. ;) Probably one more faction vote needed though to be sure of the majority. (But I'll double-check to be sure.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 30, 2018, 07:43:27 PM
Okay, yes, you'll need another Faction besides Erax's Progressives for the majority: technically if the other three all voted against this, they'd win!

You can probably count on I.I.'s Aristocrats. But speaking of them, let me know where your extra farmed Influence point should go. (Not to Cornelius, he generated it.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on December 30, 2018, 08:15:21 PM
The Aristocrats support Flaminius. Influence to Quinctius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 31, 2018, 09:11:35 AM
Manlius Proposes Flaminius of the Progressives as the new Censor, and the Populists, Progressives, and Aristocrats agree. Flamís Influence goes up 5 from 11 to 16; new faction total 20. (16 + 2 Calp + 2 Plaut.)

I.I. gives the extra Influence point to Quinctius, up to 19, Faction total up to 56.

Presiding Magistrate post shifts temporarily to Flaminius, for Erax to decide whether there will be any Investigations this Turn. Potential targets:

Progressives themselves: Plautius with 2 minor suspicions.

Aristocrats: Cornelius 1 minor; Valerius 2 minor and 1 Major suspicion.

Militarists: Manlius 1 minor; Julius 1 minor, 1 major suspicion.

Plutocrats: Acilius the PontMax, 1 major suspicion.

Aristocrats: no one.

Populists: Aurelius 1 minor; Junius 1 major suspicion.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on December 31, 2018, 12:24:37 PM
Acilius the PontMax gives his fellow Plutocrat Claudius a minor priesthood. Claudís influence goes up 1 to 19; total Plutocrat influence up to 50.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on January 02, 2019, 12:32:41 PM
The Office of the Censor opens a Minor investigation of the PontMax, and invites Cato the Elder to be Prosecutor.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on January 03, 2019, 10:29:37 AM
First, I am not guilty of whatever you are prosecuting me for.   

Second, I am the only faction that could possibly get enough influence to keep the Aristocrats in check--right now they are the most influential faction, and they get bonuses when that happens. (I forget what the bonuses are, or I would provide some glorious rhetoric on the dangers posed by Aristocrats--but we all know that Aristocratic rule is fickle and capricious.)

Third, I want the full vote counted, so I know where each faction stands on these frivolous charges.  No one is safe in this system.  To date, I have kept my word and have done no assassinations. 
I did prosecute the Militarists with no warning when they were frontrunners, but they were guilty and we have since made amends. Moreover, I am not the frontrunner, not in a position to grow this turn, and would be happy to provide support to the smaller factions. 


Shouldn't we put these petty disputes behind us an focus on building the empire in a way that will benefit us all? 






Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 03, 2019, 02:00:41 PM
Cato will do his duty as requested by the state
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 03, 2019, 03:46:49 PM
This game is just the best.  :smitten:

The Plutocrats prosecuted the Conservatives, not the Militarists, btw. Since then AzTank's Conservatives have been seriously crippled, though partly that was also due to bad luck.

The Frog is entirely correct about the Aristocrats being in the lead -- in fact Cornelius just crossed the 20 point validity to be Proposed as Consul for Life! Being the leader in total Influence means Aristocrat knights bring x2 votes on every topic pro or con. (The Aristocrats are the main reason why I directly track everyone's total Influence for comparison purposes, although it also makes a difference to the end of the game -- if the Republic survives that long!)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 03, 2019, 03:47:43 PM
Shouldn't we put these petty disputes behind us an focus on building the empire in a way that will benefit us all?

ACK, HE'S AN IMPERIALIST!

...not helping your case there.  >:D  ;D
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 04, 2019, 04:12:14 PM
Okay, back from work. Let's see where we're at.

The Frog would like AzTank's new Statesman Paullus Macedonicus to Advocate for him. He'll have to check in and agree, but we can move along until the final Trial until then.

There hasn't been a voting order posted yet by Erax/Flaminius.

The Trial starts with Acilius' Influence giving him 16 votes FOR Acquittal.

We can naturally expect the Plutocrats to add another 15 normal votes FOR acquittal for a running total of +31.

Technically the Frog hasn't voted yet however! -- I'm just reporting an expectation. He reserves the right to make a Popular Appeal when the time comes for the Plutocrats to vote.

In a similar vein, although he hasn't actually voted yet, we can expect Erax's Progressives to put in -9 votes, with another -4 activist knight votes, producing an expected net +18 votes FOR Acquittal.

Malize hasn't accepted Cato the elder as Prosecutor yet, much as AzTank hasn't accepted Paullus as Advocate yet. IF they do, we could expect -23 normal votes (including popularity) from the Populists, and +13 from the Conservatives. (NOTE! -- the Conservative activist vote only activates when opposing Proposals, which this trial is not!)

Current running tally then:

Acilius Influence +16
This is the only figure we know for sure yet.

Plutocrat vote +15 (expected)
Progressive vote -9 (expected)
Progressive activist vote -4 (expected)
Populist vote -23 (expected)
Conservative vote +13 (expected)
= +8 net votes FOR Acquittal (expected so far)

As Players weigh in, we'll lock in -- or possibly change -- those factors.

Potentially the Militarists and Aristocrats could plunge the vote either way. The Aristos have 23 (including activated activist) votes at stake, and the Militarists have 17.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on January 04, 2019, 06:57:01 PM
The Aristocrats will vote against acquittal.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 04, 2019, 07:50:06 PM
Current running tally then:

Acilius Influence +16
Aristocrats -23
I suppose at this point we can include Progressive votes -9 and -4, since there's no reason for him to vote otherwise.
(I couldn't entirely assume that until I saw at least one other Player backing his play, since last Turn remember no one backed I.I.'s Prosecution after he thought he had support, and he ended up having to vote against his own Prosecution to avoid losing Influence!)
Net tally: -20 votes AGAINST Acquittal (FOR Conviction)
These are the only figures we know for sure yet.

Plutocrat vote +15 (expected, but duh -- technically)
Populist vote -23 (expected)
Conservative vote +13 (expected)
= -15 net votes AGAINST Acquittal (expected so far)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 04, 2019, 08:04:10 PM
Note that if the Militarists follow the coterie, and if the other expected votes run out, the net vote of -32 could still be beat by two excellent rolls on Popular Appeal and the final Trial votes. (Or by one boxcar roll on Pop Appeal, which will grant immediate freedom by mob rescue!)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on January 05, 2019, 07:34:25 AM
Okay, back from work. Let's see where we're at.

The Frog would like AzTank's new Statesman Paullus Macedonicus to Advocate for him. He'll have to check in and agree, but we can move along until the final Trial until then.


The conservatives agree
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 05, 2019, 08:34:45 AM
Cato will do his duty as requested by the state

This was my acceptance as prosecutor, my votes will back Cato's role.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 11:39:55 AM
Current running tally then:

Acilius Influence +16
Aristocrats -23
I suppose at this point we can include Progressive votes -9 and -4, since there's no reason for him to vote otherwise.
Populist vote -23
Conservative vote +13

Net tally: -30 votes AGAINST Acquittal (FOR Conviction)
These are the figures we know for sure yet.

Plutocrat vote +15 (expected, but duh -- technically)
= -15 net votes AGAINST Acquittal (expected so far)

We're lacking Tripoli's 17 votes, and technically the Plutocrats (who are reserving until the Frog checks whether he should make a popular appeal, which must happen during his voting.)


Meanwhile, let me drop a reminder to myself, that according to my newly revised Progressive activist rules, if Erax's knights activate double-votes -- which they have done here -- their senator(s) will get 1 Influence win or lose. (Or 4 Influence if voting against one of their own senators gain or for his harm!) I'm not where I can process that yet, but I could go ahead and do so when I get a chance since the outcome doesn't matter at this point.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 05, 2019, 01:18:57 PM
Current running tally then:

Acilius Influence +16
Aristocrats -23
I suppose at this point we can include Progressive votes -9 and -4, since there's no reason for him to vote otherwise.
Populist vote -23
Conservative vote +13

Net tally: -30 votes AGAINST Acquittal (FOR Conviction)
These are the figures we know for sure yet.

Plutocrat vote +15 (expected, but duh -- technically)
= -15 net votes AGAINST Acquittal (expected so far)

We're lacking Tripoli's 17 votes, and technically the Plutocrats (who are reserving until the Frog checks whether he should make a popular appeal, which must happen during his voting.)



Hanging's to Good for Him!  The militarists vote for conviction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVX4zGX3iWg
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 01:58:42 PM
With that, the Net expected votes (including Plutocrats eventually) comes to -32 AGAINST Acquittal.

We still don't have dice-rolling capability yet, so I'll have to wait until I get back home (at work doing eoy inventory) see what the Popular appeal brings.

If he rolls 2, he dies period, and his Advocate will make one draw from the death bag to see if he dies, too.

If he rolls 12, he's instantly freed, and there will be two draws from the death bag to see if the Censor and/or Prosecutor's number comes up.

However, no other result from the popular appeal (at most 16 votes For Acquittal) will combine with his 15 votes to save him: he'll be -1 short at best.

He could still pull out a win with some risk after the adjusted 2d6 roll of the final trial (which would be adjusted 2 points against him by the relative Oratory skills of the Prosecutor and Advocate). But I have been instructed that if he doesn't get freed by the Popular Appeal, then don't risk losing the Trial: veto it with the PontMax.

I have double checked the Living Rules, and nothing specifically is said about the PontMax being unable to veto his own Trial. He explicitly cannot veto his own Removal Proposition, and he can veto trials (i.e. anything a Tribune could normally veto). The Living Rules usually take Advanced Rules into account (that's why there are blue-lettered marks in the rules). I can understand why it would be irregular, but it isn't strictly illegal so far as I can tell.

If any other rule-hounds want to check on that, now's the time!

Otherwise, he'll be rolling (with a gamble on his life in case he hard fails) on whether or not he needs to spend his PontMax veto this Turn on defending himself. But then of course he won't be able to use that veto again this Turn.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 02:49:44 PM
Before I roll the Pop Appeal, some Progressive bookkeeping:

Since the Progressive knights activated x2 votes, win or lose their senators Flaminius and Calpurnicus each gain 1 Influence (according to the updated Faction special abilities I instituted before the Senate started), up to 17 and 3 respectively. New total Influence 22.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 03:09:52 PM
2d6 rolls 3+4, which is 7, which means no change, but more importantly means he isn't freed (or killed) by the people.

So the PontMax vetos his own Trial.

....I'm not gonna lie, I find this unacceptably weird.  >:(

After triple and quadruple checking the Living Rules again, I looked into the Sabrerules to see if I had already house ruled some time ago on this topic. And indeed! -- while it doesn't say it's a house rule, my note 2.3.5.8.1) reads quite more explicitly than the April 2018 Living Rules. Whether that's because I found an earlier version of the Valley Games PontMax rule that made more sense to me (I do have an earlier version for reference; PontMaxes weren't available in the Avalon Hill rules), or because I house ruled it:

Quote
the PontMax senator may, without playing a Tribune, veto one proposal per turn (except a proposal to strip him of PontMax office!), before any senator in his faction starts voting, if the proposal could be vetoed by a Tribune. (Trials are not proposals, so are immune to PontMax veto.)


I think this is a much more balanced approach, since it doesn't really make sense that the PontMax should be able to veto his own Trial; and it limits his veto power a little more broadly, too, by restricting it to Proposals only. Since I'm clearly house ruling here, I could be persuaded that the PontMax would be able to veto a Trial, too, but not his own, on the same principle that he cannot veto his own Removal Proposal. Opinions are welcome, but remember I'll enforce the result equally hereafter!

Relatedly, the Frog might have tried more negotiation tactics if I hadn't forgotten I had written this house rule, so my lapse could be argued to have affected the result significantly.

Therefore: I am going to rule as fairly as I can see to do so, that this is the final turn that the PontMax will be able to veto his own Trial, and henceforth some version of the Sabrerule house rule will be in effect (either avoiding anything beyond Proposal vetos for the PontMax, or at least not allowing him to veto his own Trial.)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 03:14:19 PM
Now, results for a veto'd Trial. The Trial is Canceled, without Acquittal or Conviction, so no one gains or loses from those results (other than the veto being used up this Turn of course).

However! -- while a Canceled Trial uses up one Prosecution attempt, a Canceled Trial does NOT remove the Defendant's Suspicion marker! (I just double checked; this is in the Sabrerule flowchart, too!)

This means Flaminius the Censor can launch a second Minor Investigation this Turn; and he can launch it again at Acilius for Minor Suspicion of Office Corruption; and he can appoint the same Prosecutor (Cato the Elder) if he wants; etc.

Everyone can vote the same way they did before, which I will assume unless someone explicitly tells me otherwise!


In effect, this means everyone has a chance to change their mind on the vote, or not; and the Popular Appeal gets a re-roll; and unless the Frog has a Tribune and chooses to throw it for another veto (and unless he rolls a 2 or 12 on the Pop Appeal) we'll go on into the final Trial.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 03:52:01 PM
Let me add that if the Players prefer to keep the implicit allowance of the Living Rules, and allow PontMaxes to veto their own Trials (using up their veto per turn), I'll be okay with that, too.  O:-) Certainly an argument can be made that way as well.

Please feel free to weigh in with your preferences!


The result won't affect this Turn, however, so we're going onward: unless I hear otherwise, whereupon I'll retcon voting results, then I'll assume provisionally that everyone is doing the same things again in a second Prosecution of Investigation for Minor Corruption of PontMax Office.

Current running tally then:

Acilius Influence (note actual senator votes yet!) +16
Aristocrats -23 (including activist)
Progressive votes -13 (including activist) -- this means his senators with knights will each earn a point of Influence again, btw.
Populist vote -23
Conservative vote +13
Militarist vote -17

That's -47 AGAINST Acquittal.

This time on the popular appeal Acilius rolls 6+2=8.

That's +4 votes in his favor.

However, even with him casting his senators' official 15 votes, that leaves -28 against him.

And with the -2 die-roll-modifier against the final Trial roll, thanks to Cato's Oratory vs. Paullus', then at absolute best Acilius could only get +12 more votes.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 05:56:40 PM
Provisionally allowing for some asynchronous alterations in voting or whatever, the Prosecution returns a Minor Guilty verdict against PontMax Acilius.

The first result in any case would be that Flaminius and Calpurnicus of the Progressives, having activist knights voting in the Progressive special abilities, each gain another 1 Influence, up to 18 and 4 respectively. New Progressive total Influence 24.

Second, Acilius loses his Major Suspicion Mark. His Prosecutor, Populist Cato the Elder, did not yet have a Prior Consul mark, and Acilius did, so the mark shifts to Cato. He can now be elected Censor, but Acilius cannot. Acilius loses 5 Popularity, down to -5 (the first Unpopular senator in the game); and loses 5 Influence down to 11. Plutocrat total Influence now down to 45.

Third, Prosecutor Cato of the Populists gains half (rounded up) of the 5 lost Influence of the Accused, going up 3 Influence from 1 to 4. New Populist total Influence 15.

Fourth, this second Prosecution necessarily ends the Prosecution segment, so all senators in Rome removal all Suspicions.

Last, the Presiding Magistrate post passes back to Roman Consul and HRAO Manlius of the Militarists.

This also ends all Mandatory Business.

Manliusí Player, Tripoli, must now consider all Other Business in the order he prefers to Propose it (or which may be Tribuned by Players).

Valid Other Business this Turn includes: possibly raising the 14th and/or 15th Legions (10 Talents each); possibly raising up to 15 Fleets (10 Talents each); possibly Disbanding up to 13 Active Legions (1st thru 13th; 1st being Veteran); Deploying Active Units in Forces with Commanders to fight Wars; Removing the PontMax from Office; and Reforming the Veterans.


This leads to the topic of Professional Training and Veteran status, which is very much a house rule in progress, and needs its own post. ;)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 05, 2019, 07:26:08 PM
1st order of business. The raising of all available legions.
2nd order of business. The raising of all available fleets. Depending on how the votes go, I may have other. Proposals. I donít think we need a voting order for these first two proposals. Militarists vote for both proposals
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 08:46:24 PM
For convenience, here's the State of the Republic information from earlier. Player mats have changed, of course, so aren't reposted, but the other stats are the same up to now since the start of the Senate.

STATE OF THE REPUBLIC:
----------------------------

The Republic currently has 196 Talents, with an income of 60, and more Allied Enthusiasm about to add another 50 next Turn. Current expected expenses are -10 and -20 for Active Wars, and -10 for an Immanent War which will activate before the Revenue Phase next Turn. Expected expenses also include -2 x 13 Active Legions. (Vets cost nothing extra for upkeep, though really they should.)

There's a Spolia Opima historical Event in the Forum, and strictly speaking it doesn't distinguish between Land and Naval Victories against an Enemy Leader! However, neither does the prologue fan expansion feature naval battles at all. And, to be fair, while the rules mentioned a Spolia Opima event, they forgot to include any details for it, so its details are totally my invention anyway. ;) So I'm going to rule that claiming it must require a Land Victory over an Enemy Leader, which is certainly the spirit of the event anyway. (I'll try to remember to clarify this rule on the card text soon.)

Unrest is currently 1.


Here's the Immanent War again for convenience:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8378/1Rg0us.jpg)

And the two Active Wars plus Enemy Leader:

(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7067/ksWJko.jpg)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on January 05, 2019, 09:51:29 PM
The Aristocrats will naturally vote in favour of the defence of the Republic.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 05, 2019, 10:01:12 PM
Catching up on events and I feel like I've taken a drink of a Pan-galactic Gargle Blaster...
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 05, 2019, 10:19:25 PM
Now, on Reforming Veterans (loosely based on the reforms of Marius and that other guy whose name everyone forgets because Marius was more famous... ;) )

I was a little surprised and disappointed that Veterans are so brittle in this game. Maybe that's for play balance, I dunno, but in my estimation the best power of the Legions wasn't in their ability to hit doubly or triply hard (thanks to training and command/logistic structure). I mean, that's definitely important and something the game simulates, but I regard their best power as defense, the ability to professionally outlast their opponents.

It was during this period that Rome's Legions started upgrading into the professional military machine that could only be seriously matched, other things being equal, by fellow Roman Legions. Which of course is why the game starts leveling up Legions into vets. And sure, the first thing they arguably did was learn to fight more damagingly. But the Marian Reforms (and successors) also introduced tons of defensive doctrinal changes to keep those harder-hitting fighters alive and hitting back (harder).

That's what I decided to add for simulation in the game, so that over time Rome's Legions have opportunities (provided by the Senate, where possible and agreed upon), to develop up not only into the peak efficiency of the coming Imperial period, but even to create the nucleus of what will become the Praetorian Legions. Maybe. ;)


So! The Sabrerule flowchart has a (now outdated) paragraph on this already, but I've been refining it over time, and I'll update it after chewing on it some more (with feedback hopefully!) But here are the details.

For topical context, when the game rolls for casualties, I have a process where, starting with the 'youngest' Legion in the fight and working upward (highest to lowest legion number), I roll a 1d6 for each Legion to see if it will be one of the necessary casualties lost. The older Legions are presumed to be more experienced even if not Veteran yet, so the younger Legions roll their chances first. If we get to the end of the list and not enough casualties have rolled yet then I start over with the youngest surviving Legion and test each again, until I run out of casualties so to speak. That means sometimes randomly 'older' Legions will die off faster than younger ones, but the nominally more experienced ones have a little better chance of survival, even if they aren't Veterans yet.

By the same token, the Legion which levels up to Veteran after a non-Defeat fight, will be the oldest (lowest-number) non-Vet Legion. That's why the 1st Legion is currently a Vet! And consequently, it counts twice now when figuring out the dice-roll modifier for the battle roll, unlike once for other Legions.

From this Turn forward, now that a Veteran Legion exists, the Senate can vote to spend Talents instituting training for superior Veteran strength in defense. Attack will always stay x2 (or x3 now, in effect, where a Commander's Mil Skill is high enough to count them yet again for the fight!)

For New Veterans (Level 0), i.e. until the first paid Reform, Vets only get double attack bonus. That's our 1st Legion right now, for example: only extra attack, no extra defense.

The first paid Reform creates Seasoned Veteran training with the first defensive bonuses. All Reforms cost 10 Talents times the number of Veteran Legions + 10 Talents per level of Reform. Only one level of Reform is allowed per Turn. Training Reforms are permanent and affect all current and future Veterans going forward.

For Seasoned Veterans (Level 1), all non-Vets must roll for survival first in a cycle, then Vets (youngest to oldest Legions in each case).

For Mature Veterans (Level 2), the testing order goes back to normal, but the Vets get 1 extra survivor roll for each death roll; passing the roll cycles on to next oldest Legions, as usual.

For Hastati Veterans (Level 3), combine both Level 1 and 2 rules: all non-Vets must roll for survival first in a cycle, then Vets (youngest to oldest in each case), but the Vets get two rolls to survive. Any casualties remaining, start over again on all surviving non-Vets first. Continue until the casualties fill out.

So far, there has been no change in how many Legions perish. If the roll says three Legions lost, three will be lost. If that's all the Legions, no need to even roll, that's everyone, Veterans included.

For Elite Principes (Level 4), along with Level 3 combined benefits, any Veteran survival roll reduces the remaining casualty number by 1! That means survival of a Veteran decreases the chance of even non-Vets perishing! -- now they know how to put their training to work to save other Legions, too, not only themselves.

So far, each upgrade affects all Legions, current and future, once researched and funded. The Elite are the normal ideal Veterans that new Legions become when becoming Veterans: able to hit hard, less likely to be destroyed, and able to save lesser Legions, too.

Once Level 4 training has been reached, however, a whole other category of Veterancy training can be bought for specific Legions, at 50 Talents per Legion. These Gold Veteran Legions will be denoted by a permanent gold coin on their chit (actually representing 100 Talents but that seemed too much to pay under the circumstances), and are in effect entire Legions of Triarii: the ultimate experienced troops too valuable to even be put in danger usually, so who usually only hit hard as the reserve to finish out a fight! Aside from being allowed two survival rolls, and any survival success reducing the remaining casualties by one, Gold Vets do not even roll casualties until a Gold-only Force remains! For then, as the saying goes, ďIt has come to the triarii!Ē The saying originally referred to groups less than a whole Legion of course, but it came to be proverbally applied to last-chance defenses.

The Gold or Triarii Veterans are really no better at fighting than the Principes, they just get to die last -- if it comes that! By the same token, they only get that privilege if there are other Legions (Vet or otherwise) to die first! -- otherwise you might as well send in a Force of only Level 4 "Elite Principes" Vets. I thought there should be a Prestige level of Veterancy, beyond the normal maximum, where now it's efficiently worse than useless to even have them, because you're spending lots of the Republic's cash to bling them out but they haven't gotten functionally better. Naturally these would be the precursors to the Praetorian Guard.

Being a class of veterans no more useful except as bling, I intend for them to confer an Influence bonus at least, maybe also Pop and/or a Mil Skill increase, for a senator who sponsors their promotion to 'Gold'. I haven't worked out the details on this yet, but I've got a minimum of 5 Turns to do so. ;)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 07, 2019, 06:50:03 AM
1st order of business. The raising of all available legions.
2nd order of business. The raising of all available fleets. Depending on how the votes go, I may have other. Proposals. I donít think we need a voting order for these first two proposals. Militarists vote for both proposals

Yes on both
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on January 07, 2019, 12:34:09 PM
Yes on both, and I suggest we take advantage of JP's new veterancy rules and go up to level 1 while the cost is only 10 talents. Err... 20 talents.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 07, 2019, 01:36:01 PM
Yes on both, and I suggest we take advantage of JP's new veterancy rules and go up to level 1 while the cost is only 10 talents. Err... 20 talents.

Correct: 10 Talents for the first level + (10 times one Veteran).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 07, 2019, 05:11:18 PM
Concur.  Also, I propose
3) That 10 talents be spent on the 1st  legion to increase its veteran status.  Militarists vote yes on this proposal
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 07, 2019, 06:16:48 PM
Concur.  Also, I propose
3) That 10 talents be spent on the 1st  legion to increase its veteran status.  Militarists vote yes on this proposal

Yes
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on January 07, 2019, 06:17:48 PM
Aye
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 07, 2019, 09:07:26 PM
Ahem, it will actually be 20 Talents (as correctly noted by Erax). But it's almost as cheap as possible to do get the first level done now, while there's only one Veteran Legion; and all Vets going forward will benefit from being Seasoned Vets.

With the Aristocrats joining the vote, the first Proposal crosses the majority, and passes. Context indicates the next two proposals will also pass with their votes being indicated. 14th and 15th Legions go Active. Republic Treasury down 20 Talents (10 x 2 Legions) from 196 to 176.

Tripoli Proposes to Raise all 15 available Fleets in the Force Pool; passed by the same votes. 1st through 15th Fleets go Active. Republic Treasury down 150 Talents (10 x 15 Legions) from 176 to 26 Talents.

Tripoli Proposes to Reform the Veteran Legions to Level 1 Seasoned Vet Training; passed by the same votes. Cost is (10 Talents x 1st Level Training) + (10 Talents x 1 Legion) = 20 Talents. Republic Treasury down 20 Talents from 26 to 6!

As a reminder, next Turnís normal Income is expected to be 60 Talents, plus 50 Talents in Allied Enthusiasm, for 110 + 6 current Talents. From this will be nominally subtracted 10 Talents from the 2nd Samnite War, 10 from the 3rd Samnite War (which will go Active during the first Phase), and 20 from the 1st Punic. (All active Wars from Early Provincial onward cost 20 instead of 10 Talents.) From that will be subtracted the nominal Fleet and Legion upkeep costs of 2 times the sum of the Fleets and Legions, or 2*(15+15) = 60 Talents.

6+60+50-10-10-20-60 = expected 16 Talents in the Treasury going into the Forum Phase. Of course, this could be modified by a permanent income increase of 20 Talents if the 2nd Samnite War gets knocked out; and/or by any Fleet and Legion losses (reducing upkeep costs); and/or by Contributions from senators during the Revenue Phaseís first segment.

Even so, you'll have left the Republic rather dangerously exposed to fatal runs of expensive bad luck during the Forum Phase! And you won't have a Plutocrat HRAO to fall back on, because even if you send out the two Consuls, the Censor will remain as HRAO in Rome -- and ideally the Consuls will be back anyway with solid Victories to build for progress on next Turn! The PontMax will not be able to act as a financial Last Ditch next Turn... (unless a bunch of assassinations get successfully thrown...)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 09, 2019, 09:51:18 AM
All-I'm consulting some allies regarding my next proposals.  Will make some additional proposals or end the phase later tonight
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 09, 2019, 06:42:53 PM
I am proposing 1) Cornelius and  all Legions prosecute  the Samnite war and

2) I will take the fleets and teach the Carthaginian dogs a lesson.....  :)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 09, 2019, 07:25:04 PM
Yes and Yes.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 09, 2019, 08:35:35 PM
I already know from chat that the Progressives and the Aristocrats agree with both Proposals in sequence.

I'll have to wait until tomorrow afternoon to process them, but the Proposals will each thus pass the majority; and with the departure of the Roman Consul the Senate will be closed (unless someone throws a Tribune to veto his Proposal to deploy himself; or to Propose something else before the Senate closes; or unless he hands off the PM post to the Censor after the Field Consul has gone -- none of which I expect to happen.)

Once the Deployments are processed, I'll move on thereby to the Combat Phase; and having resolved that, to the start of the Revolution Phase, with a reminder to any Players with valid Faction cards to play. So, a busy evening for me tomorrow!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 11, 2019, 06:40:02 AM
Urgh, apologies, very wiped out yesterday after work. Hopefully should move along more quickly this afternoon or tomorrow (though I'll be away from my main computer for several hours tomorrow afternoon).
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 11, 2019, 07:20:08 PM
Still bluerghy, but recovered enough! -- let's get to it!  <:-)

Manlius of the Militarists Proposes first that Field Consul Cornelius of the Aristocrats be Deployed with all Legions to prosecute the 2nd Samnite War; and then that Manlius himself as Roman Consul will take all Fleets and Prosecute the 1st Punic War. With agreement votes from the Progressives, Aristocrats, and Populists, both Proposals pass, and with the Presiding Magistrate leaving Rome (on Deployment) the Senate automatically closes.

This ends the Senate Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 11, 2019, 07:38:05 PM
With Field consul Cornelius Deployed, the Aristocrat total Influence drops by 20 points to 36; and their normal vote tally drops by 6 points to 9.

With Roman Consul Manlius Deployed, the Militarist total Influence drops by 18 points to 22; and their vote tally drops by 5 points to 12.

Time to put the boots down!


TURN NINE -- COMBAT PHASE
----------------------------------

(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2523/MhIwsn.jpg)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 11, 2019, 08:05:52 PM
First up: the Revered Field Consul Cornelius, Faction Leader of the Aristocrats, vs. the 2nd Samnite War!

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7499/I99PCo.jpg)

Total Legions: 15
Veteran Legions added again: +1
Add Corneliusí Mil Skill: +4 (all used)
Subtract Warís Land Strength: -5
No Active Matching Wars, no Enemy Leaders, no extra enemy Forces.
DRM = 15+1+4-5= +15.

This means it is impossible for any 3d6 roll to score less than a modified 18, which is a Victory without Roman Casualties. However, the D/S risks still count, so the roll must be made.

No dice-roller yet reinstalled for the forum, so I roll them on the TTS. Results, 4+5+6=15. Close to a Standoff, but not quite, whew!

Unrest down 1 to 0! No enemy leader, so no Spolia Opima yet. This War does not provide Spoils for Rome. Proper consolidation of this Samnite territory under Republican management does increase annual Republic Revenue by 20 Talents, up to 80! It also adds no less than 5 new Legions, and 5 new Fleets (16th through 20th each, inclusive) to the logistic Force Pool! The 2nd Samnite War permanently discards.

Cornelius gains half the Warís 5 Land strength, rounded up: so his Influence goes up 3 to 23, and his Popularity goes up to 3. No Pop adjustment down for losing any Legions. The 2nd Legion becomes Veteran! -- Cornelius earns their loyalty chip. Cornelius marches back toward Rome with 2 Veteran and 13 regular Legions. Assuming he arrives in the next Phase, normal Vote tally will go back up 3 Ora + 3 knights to 15; and total Influence will go back up 23 points to 59.

Thanks to the Aristocrat special ability, Cornelius farms an extra point to be given to Quinctius or Valerius, at I.I.ís decision. The new total will then by 60 Influence.

This ends the 2nd Samnite War.

The next fight will be significantly harder...
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 11, 2019, 08:54:46 PM
The Republic faces its first Naval Battle...

(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1176/Ti1w3M.jpg)

Roman Consul Manlius, Faction Leader of the Militarists, vs. Hamilcar and the Navy of the 1st Punic War!

Total number of Fleets: 15
Add Manliusí Mil Skill: +6 (all used)
Subtract Warís base Naval Strength: -10
Subtract Hamilcarís bonus: -3
No Matching War, no extra enemy forces.
DRM = 15+6-10-3 = +8.

A total of 11, 12, or 14 will be a Standoff; a total of 8 or 13 will be a Disaster. (Hamilcar is adding his D/S potentials, and Manlius cannot eliminate the Warís.)

3d6 = 3+4+6 = 13! AACKKK! Normally 13 + 8 would be 21 and thus a no-loss victory, but 13 triggers a natural Disaster result before the DRM gets applied!

Unrest increases by 1 to 1! The Fleets lose 50% casualties rounded up! -- 8 Fleets. Randomly those turn out to be the 14th, 13th, 12th, 9th, 6th, 5th, 2nd, and 1st.

Manlius loses 1 Pop for every 2 Fleets lost rounded down, so down 4 Pop to 1. He draws 8 chits from the vigorously shuffled Death bag. Results: 28, x2 -- put back, shuffle, new total 9 chits! -- blank, 11 (one of the Papirian sons dies), 25, blank, blank, 26, 17 (thatís one of Plautiusí cousins), annnnd 7! -- one of Fulviusí sisters gets bad news. But #6 Manlius survives!


With no Victory, Manlius must stay afloat. Dead Fleets return to the Force Pool. Manlius stays as Proconsul with 7 Fleets, now as Proconsul. This means Field Consul Cornelius will be HRAO in Rome (unless he chooses rebellion).

The Warís Fleet strength now exceeds Manliusí Fleet strength (10 to 7), and there wasnít a Naval Victory; so the War counts as Unprosecuted (or insufficiently Prosecuted in this case).

This ends the Combat Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 11, 2019, 09:19:36 PM
TURN NINE -- REVOLUTION PHASE
-----------------------------


Any Players with valid Statesmen and/or Concessions can play them now. I have sent a p-mail reminder to any valid Players; if you didnít get one, you donít have a valid card to play.

Players may also trade or donate Faction cards among yourselves, with immediate arrival. No one needs to reduce your cards down to the maximum 5.

I.I. must now choose whether to hand Corneliusí Legions back to the Republic, or rebel against the Senate.

If he chooses to remain loyal, he may now choose to Retire the 2nd Legions, whose loyalty he holds and who served with him in his Victory.


And that catches me up for tonight!  O:-)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on January 11, 2019, 09:26:59 PM
Cornelius has no intention of standing against the Republic. Extra influence to Valerius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 12, 2019, 05:41:06 AM
A Little Side Note: On this day in history ( January 11, 49 BC): This day in history embodies the concept of how a ďjourney of a thousand miles begins with a single stepĒ as Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon River to march on Rome, kicking off The Great Roman Civil War, which in turn ended the era of the republic and gave rise to the Roman Empire. (Text curtosey of The Great Courses)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 12, 2019, 04:12:14 PM
I.I. chooses to remain loyal, and gives back the Legions including 2nd Vets. He gives the extra Influence point to Valerius, up to 18.

I.I. plays his (currently) last remaining Faction card: Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus! -- a famous Statesman who takes over the Cornelian family chits. His 5 Oratory increases the Aristocrat normal vote tally to 17, and his 6 Influence plus the 18 Influence points earned by his family Senator, kicks the Aristocrat tally up to 61 total Influence. Africanus, as might be expected, voids any normal D/S result from any Punic War (though he cannot void Enemy Leader D/S results).

Malize plays the ultra-general Statesman Quintus Fabius Maximum Verrucosus Cuncator! -- a Mil 5 defensive mastermind who, unless he is acting as Master of Horse, halves all losses (rounded up) in any of his Combats! His 3 Influence bumps the Populist total up to 18; and his 2 Oratory increases their Vote Tally to 25.

The Fabian family is out of play in the Curia at the moment; so while this allows Malize to politically activate the senator for his Faction (the family isnít already helping another Faction), he canít get the family Senator until the Fabians randomly respawn from the Curia. This means if Verruc dies, there will be no vanilla replacement so far. On the other hand, as long as Verruc lives, Malize will now automatically pick up the Fabian family once they return to the Senate.

(I'll have snapshots of the new Statesmen along with updated mats soon, when I finish the Faction income of the Revenue Phase.)

This seems to end the Revolution Phase, although if anyone wants to donate or trade cards I will as usual allow a reasonable lag time for immediate reception. (Otherwise the cards will be Delayed Transfer until the end of next Turn.)

And with that, the Ninth Turn ends!
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 12, 2019, 04:29:53 PM
TURN TEN -- MORTALITY PHASE
---------------------------

The Turn starts with the Immanent 3rd Samnite War going Active.

(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8729/2UPlIO.jpg)

Itís the toughest (and now last) of the pre-Early Wars, with a Land Strength of 8. But beating it will solidify a final set of territories around Rome, adding 20 Talents to income each Turn, and the final five Legions and Fleets to the Force Pool.

After a thorough shuffle, Family #16, the Calpurnicans, is drawn from the death bag. The Kindly Ones still have a crush on the Progressive Faction, alas! Calpurnicus loses his chits, and (not being the Faction Leader) his family goes to the bottom of the Curia stack. Total Influence goes down to 20; and normal vote tally goes down to 6.

This ends the Mortality Phase.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 12, 2019, 05:07:49 PM
TURN TEN -- REVENUE PHASE
-------------------------

Segment one of the Revenue Phase: Faction Income!


I.I.ís Aristocrats have 4 starting cash; + 15 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +2+3+3 knight income; +1 priest income; +2+2 Tax Farming; +3 Harbor Fees
= new Faction total 40 Talents!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5295/IX3ghb.jpg)


Tripoliís Militarists have 6 starting cash; +25 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +5+3 knight income; +2+2 Tax Farming
= new Faction total 48 Talents!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1123/mt4CPa.jpg)
Note that Proconsul Manlius is still at the 1st Punic War, so his votes and influence have been deducted from the Faction totals. (I should have changed over his Roman Consul chit to a Proconsul on this card, too: when senators are away from Rome I keep duplicates of them in both places, marked to show their location, thus the little War card on his card.)


The Frogís Plutocrats have 9 starting cash; +14 personal cash; +5+1+1 senator income (Plutocrat ability); (+4+2+2)x2 knight income (Plutocrat ability); +1+1 priest income; +1d6=4 PontMax income
= new Faction total 52 Talents!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/1249/pZsYUi.jpg)


AzTankís Conservatives have 37 starting cash; +10 personal cash; +3+1+1 senator income; +2+2 knight income; +1+1 priest income
= new Faction total 58 Talents!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2697/jAo99o.jpg)


Malizeís Populists have 2 starting cash; +0 personal cash; +3+1+1+1 senator income; +2+1+1 knight income; +3 Mining Concession
= new Faction total 15 Talents!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/106/AP38Yg.jpg)


Eraxís Progressives have 3 starting cash; +13 personal cash; +3+1 senator income; +3 knight income; +2+2 Tax Farming
= new Faction total 27 Talents!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8789/4DyQiq.jpg)

All triggered Concessions now have a Minor Corruption Suspicion.


The Republic has a Treasury of 6 Talents right now, and can expect a 50 Talent donation from Allied Enthusiasm plus a normal (new) income of 80 Talents. Expected expenses include -10 for the 3rd Samnite War; -20 for the 1st Punic War; -2x15 Active Legions; and -2x7 Active Fleets.

Currently Unrest =1. An unassigned senator Sulpicius lingers in the Forum with 28 personal cash.


Players should now, in Segment 2, distribute their cash to their senators, and plan ahead for expenses during the upcoming Forum Phase. Donations to the Republic can be done now. Any donations or trading of cash between Players will transfer immediately.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: malize on January 12, 2019, 05:40:54 PM
10 to Cato (will donate to treasury)
5 to Fabius (will acquire knight)
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: IncompetentIdiot on January 12, 2019, 08:00:38 PM
15 to Scipio, 10 to Quinctius, 5 to Valerius.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Erax on January 13, 2019, 01:30:18 AM
2 to Flaminius, Plautius donates 20 and keeps 5 for a Knight.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on January 13, 2019, 08:29:43 AM
10 each for my guys.  The rest in faction cash.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on January 13, 2019, 09:34:43 AM
Also,  if and when I can, a priesthood to Larizonas senator of choice in thanks for his support.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 13, 2019, 03:34:12 PM
Heh, La'rizona.  8)

I'll set that up first thing for the Senate Phase, which is when priesthoods can be conferred. It'll be on Paullus, since he's the only Conservative senator without one yet.

We're missing Tripoli and AzTank's distributions still.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: ArizonaTank on January 13, 2019, 06:14:18 PM
Heh, La'rizona.  8)

I'll set that up first thing for the Senate Phase, which is when priesthoods can be conferred. It'll be on Paullus, since he's the only Conservative senator without one yet.

We're missing Tripoli and AzTank's distributions still.

3 to each of them.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Tripoli on January 14, 2019, 09:53:06 AM
Quick question: Can Manlius buy a knight while deployed?  If he can, 5 to Manlius who buys a knight.  Otherwise, 5 to Julius, who buys a knight.  25 to Aelius who donates it to the treasury for the influence.  Another 15 to Aelius on general principles.  ;)  And remainder (48-5-25-10=8) to faction cash.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 14, 2019, 12:59:36 PM
Oh, that's a good question! I'll have to check this afternoon. I think senators outside Rome do receive distribution as well as usual incomes -- even when they're captured. (They just can't send income or any other cash back when captured.)

Whether they can spend personal cash on Forum Phase projects when outside Rome, I'll have to check.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 14, 2019, 01:07:58 PM
Fortunately I have a copy of the Living Rules at work, and a fairly updated copy of my Sabrerule compilation flowchart.

Players can indeed Distribute their cash among any of their senators whether in Rome or not. (Including to captive senators, though the Faction cannot collect from Captives until ransomed or rescued.)

For Persuading senators, your Persuading senator must be in Rome, but his target doesn't have to be. So Manlius cannot try to Persuade Sulpy, for example, but Cornelius, for example, could try to Persuade Manlius.

For Persuading knights, I saw no excluding conditions. (Captive senators by implication cannot, since they can only receive cash not spend it until they paid for their freedom or have been rescued.)

Senators don't have to be in Rome to Sponsor Games.

New Faction Leader assignments don't have to be in Rome either.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: Ethel the Frog on January 14, 2019, 01:55:39 PM
If it is not too late, I will do a different cash allocation.28 to Acilius, 8 to each of the others and remainder to Faction cash.  A knight for fulvius and Acilius to sponsor lavish games spending 18 cash for 3 popularity.

If it is too late, then still the knight to Fulvius, and Acilius will sponsor the most expensive games he can. 
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 14, 2019, 02:28:53 PM
Not too late, no problem. :) I'll be resolving everyone's financials this afternoon, then doing Rome's financials, and then (assuming y'all aren't broke yet) going on to start the Forum Phase, with I.I.'s Aristocrats if I recall correctly. (I think his Field Consul is the HRAO.)

That means Erax will be last around the table, which will suit him being afk until Wednesday.
Title: Re: Early Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread
Post by: JasonPratt on January 14, 2019, 05:41:40 PM
25 to Aelius who donates it to the treasury for the influence.  Another 15 to Aelius on general principles.  ;)  And remainder