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Tabletop Gaming, Models, and Minis => Wargaming => Topic started by: JudgeDredd on December 10, 2016, 09:25:56 AM

Title: BoB:GP - Right Bob....
Post by: JudgeDredd on December 10, 2016, 09:25:56 AM
...I've got a question.

In this game it's deadly to move into open ground with a +4 modifier on top of very good German units.

However, two turns in and the Russians only managed one suppression level on the corner unit - and turn two it went back to full strength and all rolls were abysmal for the rather crappy Russian units with, effectively 1FP or 2FP (FP of 4 minus 1 for concealed German soldiers and -2 for stone building).

So they've gotten nowhere. What's next? As well as OpFire - in open ground - with unsupressed crack German units - there's Final OpFire. The Russians have to go all out and start running across the street under a hail of bullets...but do they do it now (turn 3) or try and supress the German units this turn and assault on Turn 4? If now, do they try and suppress before running across or just go for it?

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Title: Re: BoB:GP - Right Bob....
Post by: bob48 on December 10, 2016, 10:00:53 AM
Ah, Grasshopper..........

Luck does obviously play a part, but it can be done, I assure you. What there isn't (with this scenario) is a surefire method to win. My advice is to try different ways of doing it - even a charge with a lot of units can swamp the defence. Obviously, getting German units fully supressed helps :-)
Title: Re: BoB:GP - Right Bob....
Post by: JudgeDredd on December 10, 2016, 10:54:07 AM
lol - cool. So it's charge and hope.

I have seen where the Russians can do it - it is all in the luck of the dice and I've been rolling 5's and above with one 1 for the Russians...poor results.

I think I'll finish this scenario, crack on with perhaps another couple of goes at it (to reinforce the rules) as it plays quite fast and then move onto another scenario or look at implementing vehicle rules.
Title: Re: BoB:GP - Right Bob....
Post by: JudgeDredd on December 11, 2016, 01:48:24 AM
Just one other thing bob...I'm currently assaulting

Is it that dangerous. I guess it is in real life - but it's downright potent in this game and actually means you're attack will never stick...and stands no chance at all if the enemy unit isn't supressed.

For example, moving towards one of the German units, I'm in open ground. My Russian unit managed to get away with 1 level of suppression by moving in open ground. It passed it's morale check to continue moving and moved adjacent to a supressed German unit.

This German unit has Final OpFire as an option and gets 5FP (-2 for Final OpFire) +4 for the enemy unit moving in open ground + 3 for being adjacent. They get a modified FP of 9!! That is deadly in any game!

So what I'm seeing is there's not a chance in hell of getting near an enemy unit when they have the option of Final OpFire because it's so powerful.

I suppose (if you think real life) then that makes complete sense. Running across open ground towards a building with an unsupressed enemy would be deadly. Having said that, if the enemy was supressed, I'd imagine they might be just firing randomly - so I'm just thinking perhaps the game mechanic is missing a modifier to the suppression level.

I understand the suppression level and checking for morale and if they pass it, then they are considered full of beans and ready to cope - and that makes sense as well - but close assault seems excruciatingly punishing.


Having said all that - it kind of makes sense having wrote and read all that - the +4 modifier wouldn't be there if they weren't moving in open ground (which isn't an option in this scenario unless coming from the right which I will try next time.

Maybe it's just the scenario - maybe it's meant to show you the fruitlessness of moving in open ground against an unsupressed unit.

So I'm actually thinking - nevermind - it's all making sense.  O0 And yes - thinking about all this and what you said - it does seem to recreate squad tactics incredibly well.
Title: Re: BoB:GP - Right Bob....
Post by: GJK on December 11, 2016, 07:34:25 AM
This is the ASL equivalent of that scenario (Scenario A- The Guards Counterattack) and it's basically the same results: the Russians have superior numbers and they're going to lose a good many of them getting into the German held buildings and it will come down to close combat in the last turn or two to see if they can take control of the necessary buildings for a win.

With the Germans in stone buildings, you're going to have some very good rolls to break them before you take that leap of faith.  If you piddly around too much trying to get that lucky result first, you'll run out of time.  It's especially problematic because the Germans have good leaders here so it's likely that if a unit is broken, it won't remain so for but a turn.  Notice also that the Sniper activation number for both sides is "6" - so you have the random sniper popping up all the time to harass you as well. 

It's a tough little nut to crack for the Russians in the ASL version and it looks to be the same in the BoB one as well.
Title: Re: BoB:GP - Right Bob....
Post by: BanzaiCat on December 11, 2016, 07:37:49 AM
Is it sad that I remember that exact scenario (The Guards Counterattack), even though I've not played Squad Leader in, oh, 30 or so years? I used to play it...a lot.
Title: Re: BoB:GP - Right Bob....
Post by: bob48 on December 11, 2016, 07:41:23 AM
I would also say that its very easy to get fixated on the area around E7. There are other possible avenues of attack ;)
Title: Re: BoB:GP - Right Bob....
Post by: JudgeDredd on December 11, 2016, 07:53:01 AM
Agreed - and I'll definitely be looking at those next time.

It would stand a better chance of success if the Russians were attacking through cover (buildings) - however, with enough Germans around, it means OpFire and Final OpFire especially) can happen twice with a Russian "clear" hex facing two German hexes.

However - as I said in the post, it's opening my eyes to a great system. What I initially see as a bit unfair and even not worth playing due to the penalties actually should be the case.

Suppressed German units that rally should probably have full power.
Enemy units moving across open ground should be getting hit hard.
When an enemy unit is adjacent to your defensive area, you probably are likely to suffer more casualties.

So the modifiers for open ground and being adjacent make sense. The Suppression check on Morale makes sense.

Thanks GJK - ASL frightens the hell out of me. Not just because of the perceived complexity but also cost - there's soooo much out there for it!
Title: Re: BoB:GP - Right Bob....
Post by: JudgeDredd on December 11, 2016, 10:53:15 AM
Well looka here..............

The Russians actually nearly done it - through some lucky die rolls. One of the units in F5 moved into G6 and suffered suppression from the German unit in H4. It was then suffered a second step of Suppression by being hit by the German unit in G5. It needed a 1 to move into the building and rolled a 9. I used a CP and rolled again and it got 1 and made it to the building.

Unfortunately, the  German units could not be removed from E6 (the German unit in there was reinforced with a unit from E5).

I did several things wrong for both sides here...
For the Germans, I uncovered their units too quick and on turn 4, I fired my WT from D2 too soon (no need) trying to suppress a unit to prevent it moving when I should've waited for it to start moving.

For the Russians, I think focussing on E6 and the direct route (as alluded to by bob) was the wrong thing. I was trying to prevent Final OpFire in the open because of the bonuses but in doing so I was forgetting about the benefit of moving in cover.

I think I also forgot to perform the Rout phase on Turn 3 meaning the suppressed unit in E7 may have routed - as it was, it was able to engage in melee with that may not have occurred.

Turned out quite tense in the end for such a small scenario. I'm looking forward to trying others with more manoeuvre options...but I think I'll play this another couple of times to reinforce everything.

It was close though.