Crusader Kings II

[son_of_montfort]

^For some reason, I think that sounds much more interesting to me as a tale I'm reading, then a a game I'm actually playing.

You do have to realize that I've spent the better part of the last 3 years writing about Charles of Anjou and his descendents (Charles the Lame, the hunchback I mentioned and his son Robert the Wise). So... part of my enthusiasm is due to the geeking out playing this as an RPG version of my dissertation. My wife thinks we have mice because of all the "Squeeeeeeeee!!!!" nerding out noises she hears when I am playing.

So there is a definite YMMV situation here from my experience with the game.

For instance, I got a huge kick sitting there thinking about letting the Bishop of Benevento rot in prison because I knew that, had Charles been in the same situation, he would have said the same thing about letting the old, sick man rot in prison and if he died... well... God's will. It was as if Charles were with me in spirit, patting me on the back.

[jomni]

Still downloading.  Can a previous CK player skip the tutorial and just play?

[Jarhead0331]

^For some reason, I think that sounds much more interesting to me as a tale I'm reading, then a a game I'm actually playing.

You do have to realize that I've spent the better part of the last 3 years writing about Charles of Anjou and his descendents (Charles the Lame, the hunchback I mentioned and his son Robert the Wise). So... part of my enthusiasm is due to the geeking out playing this as an RPG version of my dissertation. My wife thinks we have mice because of all the "Squeeeeeeeee!!!!" nerding out noises she hears when I am playing.

So there is a definite YMMV situation here from my experience with the game.

For instance, I got a huge kick sitting there thinking about letting the Bishop of Benevento rot in prison because I knew that, had Charles been in the same situation, he would have said the same thing about letting the old, sick man rot in prison and if he died... well... God's will. It was as if Charles were with me in spirit, patting me on the back.

Yes. This is textbook YMMV.  I know that there is no way I will get the same enjoyment out of the game as someone with your medieval historical expertise will.  Its like there are typical rules for playing the game, but buried beneath those rules, is another set of historical rules that you just can't learn easily without reading the history books. 

What I do know is that your AAR will be damn fine reading.   

[Gusington]

Is combat modeled in CKII?

[son_of_montfort]

Is combat modeled in CKII?

What do you mean, Gus? Warfare is modeled but not tactical combat. What I mean is, the combat system is the same as in Europa Universalis 3. There are loads of modifiers that present themselves when you put one army in the same county as another army - did you cross a river, is it winter, who has the better martial skill, do you have flanking... etc. But I think you will find it similar to the AGEOD games, if even a bit simpler.

Its like there are typical rules for playing the game, but buried beneath those rules, is another set of historical rules that you just can't learn easily without reading the history books.

Funny you should mention that... when I get some time, my first project is to do a 15 minute or so "How to understand the CKII vassal system" video. I'll be honest about the game, I think it is a very very fine piece of work but I'm surprised that people aren't all over the vassal UI and complaining about trying to understand the vassal assignment and interaction system - which is a fundamental piece of the game - but also one of the most confusing.

[Gusington]

Yeah I meant tactics. So, no tactics but players do get to build their army?

Also it looks like the player plays as the leader of a dynasty but not necessarily a specific kingdom. Can your dynasty take over other kingdoms from other dynasties? If I play as the Habsburgs can I control Austria and Spain like in history? Can I go a-historical too and do some crazy stuff?

[spelk]

Just had my first taste of what CKII can offer, I think. I was playing through the tutorials this morning, and by the time I'd finished them I was about done - sapped my enthusiasm - and overloaded my tiny noggin with information.

I took a short break, watched a youtube vid or two, then tried to play a small country, Denmark for a little while. I just couldn't get a handle on it really. Spent most of my time answering the pleads coming from my 20+ sons and daughters! Felt like I was playing a weird version of the Sims.

However, my son came in and started watching me, as I started a new game as the King of Leon in Spain. Suddenly, with both our attentions focused on the comings and goings of the area - and the communal jeering and laughter at events unfolding, it flicked on the switch and started to become fun. I lost in a hail of sieges from surrounding provinces, whilst my main army was out on a Holy crusade against the heathens.

But that loss, fuelled another go at it, after lunch, and this time we played it more carefully, however we still lost abysmally. Still, I think it helped me enormously to have another person invested in the outcomes, and able to discuss the decisions that had to be made, which sort of opened the game up a bit more. I'm still as clueless as ever about how to play it successfully. It sometimes feels like a complex game of Risk married with Dwarf Fortress. But now, I'm interested in how to do things. And I was amazed at the emotional responses generated when you nurture your son through troubled years of conflict, readying him for succession and then the enemy assassinate him and try to poison me. Without thinking about consequences the outrage had me on a war footing instantly!

Powerful stuff.

Now I need some coaching in strategy methinks.

[Jarhead0331]

I'll be honest about the game, I think it is a very very fine piece of work but I'm surprised that people aren't all over the vassal UI and complaining about trying to understand the vassal assignment and interaction system - which is a fundamental piece of the game - but also one of the most confusing.

Not to insult anybody, but I bet the concepts are so over the heads of most players that they don't even know that there are concepts to learn.

[son_of_montfort]

Yeah I meant tactics. So, no tactics but players do get to build their army?

Also it looks like the player plays as the leader of a dynasty but not necessarily a specific kingdom. Can your dynasty take over other kingdoms from other dynasties? If I play as the Habsburgs can I control Austria and Spain like in history? Can I go a-historical too and do some crazy stuff?

Actually, no, you can't "build your army." But being able to do so would be ahistorical, as medieval armies were not "commissioned," they were born and trained. The amount of levies (read "troops you can call up") are dependent upon the type and number of holdings you have in your counties. There are three types of holdings - Cities (generate the most tax revenue but the least number and least powerful troops), Bishoprics (generate a balanced amount of tax revenue and troops, but the clergy often get out of paying taxes), and Castles (generate low tax revenue, particularly if you don't tax nobility, but the best and largest levies). So my county of Naples had two cities, a bishopric and a castle, so I could levy some 2,000 troops (many of which were the powerful knights) and - with training and time - could get that number to the max amount of 5,000 troops.

You play as a character, who is the head of a dynasty, not as a specific kingdom. If your dynasty ended without an heir, your game largely ends (there are ways around this). That character personally rules over a number of provinces - for a lowly count that would be a single province, for a Duke that can be several counties (provinces) and for a king that can be a large amount of provinces. When you call up troops you have several options. You can always raise you personal retinue - the troops available in the counties your ruler personally governs. You can also keep these raised for as long as you have the tax revenue to support them.

Further, you can request from your subordinate vassals (characters with minds of their own) that they raise their provinces' troops and place them under your command. They can refuse, and if they allow it they will expect to have their levies back eventually, so their disposition toward their ruler will lower the longer those levies remain out and under your control.

The best solution, if you can handle a problem with only your personal retinue (for Charles of Anjou, that was some 6,000-7,000 troops), then you should do that. For larger jobs you should pick your most loyal vassals first, then resort to less loyal vassals in extreme circumstances.

Yes, you can absorb other people's titles, via inheritance and conquest, but it would be a fairly difficult thing to do for entire kingdoms. Your Hapsburg example happened due to inheritance, and only then in the convoluted politics of the Early Modern era (beyond the scope of CKII). For example, as Charles I had my chamberlain work on fabricating a claim on the city of Genoa. After a year or so (it was a percent chance of 10% per year of success), he succeeded and I then had a Causus Belli to declare war on the Genoese. I conquered Genoa and Nice and then had control over over 50% of the Duchy of Genoa, so I usurped the title from the current holder (the doge) and it was mine. The same would be true with kingdoms - if you managed to conquer over 50% of the crown of Aragon (shame on you Gus, Spain did not exist before 1492), then you could usurp the title... but that would be a long and hard road, unless you were a playing a pretender to the throne.

[Jarhead0331]

This game is total SOM pr0n.  I can see him playing this game with a bottle of Aveeno at his side. 

[Gusington]

As an admitted EUIII Moron, this game sounds as if would be beyond me. I only have so much brain power available.

But there is a chance the fun factor would push me further. That's what's happening with Shogun 2 right now for me. I blitzed and took over a heapin' helpin' of provinces early on, only to be rolled back and then gang-beaten by my neighbors in my first campaign...the AI is definitely better in Shogun 2 than is has ever been. But as that happened and my attention was focused, I really learned what I need to do to survive.

Have to admit I am intrigued by the ideas posted here on CKII. Except the Aveeno.

[son_of_montfort]

This game is total SOM pr0n.  I can see him playing this game with a bottle of Aveeno at his side.

Aveeno is ahistorical. The bottle is cod oil.

[Gusington]

^Thanks for making the imagery even more grotesque.

[son_of_montfort]

^Thanks for making the imagery even more grotesque.

Then you probably shouldn't picture me playing the game in a chainmail coif.

[Gusington]

I can handle that better than the cod oil masturbatory nightmare.