Barcelona Fighting

Started by airboy, October 01, 2017, 11:30:38 PM

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JudgeDredd

Quote from: Gusington on October 04, 2017, 08:21:29 AM
Not sure what the Spanish government was thinking with a harsh crack down. That was probably the most unwise move they could have made. If the vote was truly illegal then they should have just ignored it and brushed it aside. Now they have added a lot of fuel to the fire.
Really? Power is a very powerful motivator to do whatever you can to keep a hold of it.

Governments have even been known to lie, spread rumours and even scare monger to get what they want. I would give details of the Scottish Referendum, but this is about Catalonia.

By all accounts Catalonia appears to be pretty well off in terms of wealth - or at least generating it and as UCG mentioned, word is that money gets soaked up by the Government passing it across other regions of Spain and the Catalonian's are a bit peeved about it to say the least.

Self determination. Some Scots, but not enough by all accounts, wanted it, 52% of Brits wanted it from the EU (though 62% of Scots didn't) and apparently a very high number of Catalonians wanted it.

The trouble with the Catalonian vote is that it wasn't fair. As it was banned and deemed illegal, people who were for staying within the confines of the Spanish Government didn't go and vote. Chances are it wouldn't have made a difference. But the point is until there's a legally accepted and verified ballot this one doesn't really have any legitimacy to stand as an actually legal result imo.

As for how the King of Spain is reacting - I'm pretty sure the last King of England, Scotland and Wales was beheaded for treating his subjects as if they had no rights (Charles I disbanding Parliament).
Alba gu' brath

Pete Dero

Quote from: Gusington on October 04, 2017, 08:21:29 AM
Holy crap. Does Catalonia have enough power over it's own infrastructure to make this a reality? I am going to guess that many countries will not recognize Catalonia for fear of their own 'restive' provinces following suit.

If i'm not mistaken I think Catalonia is (one of) the wealthiest region of Spain so in theory they could do it.  This is one of the reasons they want out : they contribute a lot more than they get out of it.
It is never the poor regions who want to go their own way.

If one person shouldn't mention an illegal or undemocratic vote it is the king (and we also have one like that).  He has his 'job' because he was born.

A lot of people in Belgium are following this story closely because over here there is also a part that wants Flanders to separate from Wallonia.
In Spain the Basque region may be next up.

The vote got 90% but in reality it is more of a 50/50 thing (although the latest events might have changed that in favor of separation).  Because those who don't want to separate didn't go to vote as they considered the whole process illegal (or were scared away by the police presence at the voting booth).

Sir Slash

Spain is trying to make Catalonia into Can't-alonia. Or, Can't-be-alone-ia. Either way the trouble with 'Velvet Revolutions' is if the central Govt. ignores them or just laughs it all off, what power can they make for themselves? As long as the Catalons can't or don't kick the Central Govt. out, they should treat it as a local thing and lay-off the riot police and armored cars. If it turns violent, then bring-out the troops.

I wonder who's really behind all this? Is it all just history and local or is there a larger player behind the scenes? A few years back this would be nonsense but today you just never know.
"Take a look at that". Sgt. Wilkerson-- CMBN. His last words after spotting a German tank on the other side of a hedgerow.

bayonetbrant

Quote from: Sir Slash on October 04, 2017, 09:41:17 AM
I wonder who's really behind all this? Is it all just history and local or is there a larger player behind the scenes? A few years back this would be nonsense but today you just never know.

they've been pretty restive for a long time, but because the Basques were the ones with the car bombs, no one paid much attention to the Catalans.
The key to surviving this site is to not say something which ends up as someone's tag line - Steelgrave

"their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights'...and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure." Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers

JudgeDredd

Quote from: Pete Dero on October 04, 2017, 09:26:51 AM
Quote from: Gusington on October 04, 2017, 08:21:29 AM
Holy crap. Does Catalonia have enough power over it's own infrastructure to make this a reality? I am going to guess that many countries will not recognize Catalonia for fear of their own 'restive' provinces following suit.
...
It is never the poor regions who want to go their own way.
...
Apart from the powers that be in Scotland  :buck2:
Alba gu' brath

joram

Well one thing that might disincentivize them would be if the EU played hardball.  Even if recognized as a new nation by individual member states, the EU has an incentive to discourage any favorable  participation in the Eurozone similar to how they are viewing Brexit.

Even if they are a wealthy region of Spain, they may think again if it's worth it when all their prices go up because of tariffs.   

JudgeDredd

Quote from: joram on October 05, 2017, 04:03:40 PM
Well one thing that might disincentivize them would be if the EU played hardball.  Even if recognized as a new nation by individual member states, the EU has an incentive to discourage any favorable  participation in the Eurozone similar to how they are viewing Brexit.

Even if they are a wealthy region of Spain, they may think again if it's worth it when all their prices go up because of tariffs.
Unlikely. That didn't stop the UK.

The ordinary person doesn't really think or necessarily care about such things because, until it happens, it's just scary stories to stop you exercising your right to determine how your country goes forward.
Alba gu' brath

joram

Too true of course but UK has a lot more bargaining power than Catalonia so one would assume the impact would be at least as bad?

BanzaiCat

I saw a headline earlier but can't find the link now...something about Madrid refusing to let Catalonia's Parliament meet to vote on independence?

Gusington

^Yeah I saw that at Reuters and BBC. The Catalan opposition replied 'we'll see about that, jackwads' - however you say jackwad in Spanish. Or Catalan.


слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

BanzaiCat

I wonder if that province has a military they can call on if they need to back things up. Or if cooler heads might not let it get that far. Sounds like Spain will be in an economic hole if they take off.

Gusington

They have their own police force, the Mossos. Sounds like they are similar to gendarmes...combination police and paramilitary. They have been around, on and off, since 1721.


слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

Sir Slash

Any nation with 'Cat' in it's name has got to be expected to want to do it's own thing. If they try to leave Spain, just get some laser pointers and draw them right back in again. Problem solved.  :uglystupid2:
"Take a look at that". Sgt. Wilkerson-- CMBN. His last words after spotting a German tank on the other side of a hedgerow.

JudgeDredd

Quote from: BanzaiCat on October 05, 2017, 08:26:10 PM
I wonder if that province has a military they can call on if they need to back things up. Or if cooler heads might not let it get that far. Sounds like Spain will be in an economic hole if they take off.
I wouldn't say Spain would be in an economic hole...however, Spain - like most countries - don't want their country to "break up", especially when said nation is a benefit to the coffers (financial state).

On top of that, they have the Basque separatists who would want independence too (as they have for quite some years). So these countries (I'm talking about the UK, Spain, even the EU currently because that's where it's recently been up for grabs) can't be seen to be allowing parts to break away and have that at a benefit of those parts because that could start a tumbling process.
Alba gu' brath

JudgeDredd

Quote from: joram on October 05, 2017, 06:49:15 PM
Too true of course but UK has a lot more bargaining power than Catalonia so one would assume the impact would be at least as bad?
It may well do...but as I said, the general populace probably won't think about that. It might be an "oops" moment when they leave - but for alot of people that won't be in their minds when voting.
Alba gu' brath