-- NOW AVAILABLE -- CS Middle East Update 1.02 Open Beta

Started by Crossroads, December 04, 2015, 02:33:49 AM

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Jarhead0331

So that great 3D terrain mod pushed me over the edge and I just purchased this. Game looks outstanding.

I'm confused about something though...I just ran the bootcamp scenario and totally kicked ass. I took no losses, inflicted heavy losses on Side B and captured all strategic objectives, but the outcome was a Major Defeat for Side A. Why is this? I concede I did not play along with the manual, but it seems like this should have been a major victory for my side. What am I missing?
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


panzerde

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 19, 2015, 06:17:43 PM
So that great 3D terrain mod pushed me over the edge and I just purchased this. Game looks outstanding.

I'm confused about something though...I just ran the bootcamp scenario and totally kicked ass. I took no losses, inflicted heavy losses on Side B and captured all strategic objectives, but the outcome was a Major Defeat for Side A. Why is this? I concede I did not play along with the manual, but it seems like this should have been a major victory for my side. What am I missing?


There are civilians in that scenario. Did you inflict any civilian casualties? There are major negative VPs for that.

"This damned Bonaparte is going to get us all killed" - Jean Lannes, 1809

Castellan -  La Fraternite des Boutons Carres

Jarhead0331

^Oh snap! That is totally possible! I may have wasted the civilians...I swear, it was an accident.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


panzerde

They are pretty tough to differentiate in 3D mode, too! Wait until there are some civs parked right on a objective hex you need to take, and you realize that moving your guys in there actually means you're conducting an assault on them.


Having civs in the game is a pretty nice touch though, particularly given the nature of the conflicts modelled.
"This damned Bonaparte is going to get us all killed" - Jean Lannes, 1809

Castellan -  La Fraternite des Boutons Carres

Jarhead0331

Quote from: panzerde on December 19, 2015, 07:59:35 PM
They are pretty tough to differentiate in 3D mode, too! Wait until there are some civs parked right on a objective hex you need to take, and you realize that moving your guys in there actually means you're conducting an assault on them.


Having civs in the game is a pretty nice touch though, particularly given the nature of the conflicts modelled.

I agree, but you should be able to occupy space with civilians without having to assault them. Maybe in a patch? Unless it is a limitation of the system.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


-budd-

I think it is a limitations of the system. you have to assault them with lower point units to move them off sometimes. Agreed the game is fantastic, some of the scenarios are tough, that one campaign is brutal, cant remember the name off hand.
Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must.  ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Be Yourself; Everyone Else is Taken ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

Crossroads

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 19, 2015, 06:17:43 PM
So that great 3D terrain mod pushed me over the edge and I just purchased this. Game looks outstanding.


Thank you for your support Jarhead, it is appreciated!  :)


Quote from: Jarhead0331 on December 19, 2015, 09:00:14 PM
Quote from: panzerde on December 19, 2015, 07:59:35 PM
They are pretty tough to differentiate in 3D mode, too! Wait until there are some civs parked right on a objective hex you need to take, and you realize that moving your guys in there actually means you're conducting an assault on them.


Having civs in the game is a pretty nice touch though, particularly given the nature of the conflicts modelled.

I agree, but you should be able to occupy space with civilians without having to assault them. Maybe in a patch? Unless it is a limitation of the system.

Having no certain way to limit collateral casualties is by design. At the time this was being implemented I argued there should be one, and proposed an Assault would be allowed without a negative Victory Point tally for this. A successful Assault results in Capture, remember. But the consensus was and I agree with it that it should be a huge risk to wage battle with Civilians around, and from that point of view that is how they should be depicted by Scenario Designer too.

Civilians do change the nature of combat quite in a fundamental way. Especially in urban environments, for one it forces you to switch your Opportunity Fire OFF. Otherwise, it is bound to happen a Civilian moves on your LOS, your unit Op Fires at it, poof! , it is gone. At -9VP per Strength Point, a full 6SP Civilian and bang that's 54VPs in the negative!  >:(

Also, use of artillery becomes very difficult. Target a legit hex, then during the opponent / AI turn watch a hapless Civilian unit enter the very hex, then on your next turn, observe your Artillery Phase to destroy them completely. It hurts for sure.

Finally, use of Air Strikes which tend to stray off a few hexes in an urban environment is a definite risk. Air strikes are quite random, and to use them in abundance (in scenarios where Air Power is available) and see them hitting a wrong target can again swing a Victory into a Loss.

Bootcamps are quite small scenarios, so they quickly swing one way or another. In larger scenarios, it is often good to look for alternatives instead of holding Objectives. Often, a key to Major Win is a successful encirclement and destruction of enemy units. So bypassing that Objective with Civilians there might not be the end of it. Or, you might just risk at straying bullets over them from distance, and hoping they would retreat. But that's you firing at Civilians, not a happy thought and designed to be so!

Yes, they are tough to have around.

They are around for the first time, so please keep your observations and feedback coming, let us see if there should be some alternatives of having them off compared to now. For now, there's none
Campaign Series Legion | CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 | CS: Middle East 1948-1985

CS: Vietnam DAR: LZ Albany as NVA (South Vietnam 11/17/65)  
CS: Middle East AARs: High Water Mark (Syria 10/12/73) Me vs Berto | Riptide (Libya 8/6/85) Me vs Berto | The Crossroads (West Bank 6/5/67)  Me vs Berto

Boardgame AARs: AH D-Day | MMP PanzerBlitz2 Carentan | OSS Putin's Northern War | GMT Next War: Poland | LnL Against the Odds DIY

jomni

Looks like a nice feature. Will definitely buy this game.

Crossroads

Quote from: jomni on December 20, 2015, 03:17:40 AM
Looks like a nice feature. Will definitely buy this game.

Thank you for your support jomni!

A nice feature they are, and a total nuisance when loitering around your nice and clean battle field  :D
Campaign Series Legion | CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 | CS: Middle East 1948-1985

CS: Vietnam DAR: LZ Albany as NVA (South Vietnam 11/17/65)  
CS: Middle East AARs: High Water Mark (Syria 10/12/73) Me vs Berto | Riptide (Libya 8/6/85) Me vs Berto | The Crossroads (West Bank 6/5/67)  Me vs Berto

Boardgame AARs: AH D-Day | MMP PanzerBlitz2 Carentan | OSS Putin's Northern War | GMT Next War: Poland | LnL Against the Odds DIY

Pinetree

Arab-Israeli wars doesn't float my boat but having the civvies in the Vietnam game definitely perks my interest up in that one.
Gen. Montgomery: "Your men don't salute much."
Gen. Freyberg: "Well, if you wave at them they'll usually wave back."

Crossroads

Quote from: Pinetree on December 20, 2015, 03:32:48 AM
Arab-Israeli wars doesn't float my boat but having the civvies in the Vietnam game definitely perks my interest up in that one.

We'll start the CS: Vietnam development first thing in January, while for now we continue to give Middle East our undivided eye for support. Civilians tend to change things quite dramatically, especially so as a more contemporary weaponry has such destructive effect to targets.

Meanwhile, I will remind you CS: Middle East covers quite an period in 1948-1985, and especially the 1980's scenarios have quite an NATO vs WP conflict feel to them  ^-^

It is all good of course. Thank you for your input and we are hopefully soon posting CS: Vietnam sneak-peeks for everyone to see and comment upon!
Campaign Series Legion | CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 | CS: Middle East 1948-1985

CS: Vietnam DAR: LZ Albany as NVA (South Vietnam 11/17/65)  
CS: Middle East AARs: High Water Mark (Syria 10/12/73) Me vs Berto | Riptide (Libya 8/6/85) Me vs Berto | The Crossroads (West Bank 6/5/67)  Me vs Berto

Boardgame AARs: AH D-Day | MMP PanzerBlitz2 Carentan | OSS Putin's Northern War | GMT Next War: Poland | LnL Against the Odds DIY

berto

Quote from: Crossroads on December 20, 2015, 05:12:55 AM

We'll start the CS: Vietnam development first thing in January, while for now we continue to give Middle East our undivided eye for support. Civilians tend to change things quite dramatically, especially so as a more contemporary weaponry has such destructive effect to targets.

Well, actually we will resume CS: Vietnam development first thing in January.  Vietnam has been in development for several years, right alongside Middle East.

(Among other reasons, Middle East was released first because helicopters don't play such a significant part in those conflicts.  Helo ops are not quite ready yet for Vietnam:  no helo-aware A/I.  But there will be.)

At last count, there are already 53 scenarios for Vietnam in various stages of development.  There should be many more than that by the time Vietnam is released, hopefully by year's end 2016.

Of course, any new features and bug fixes we apply to Vietnam will be back ported, free of charge, to Middle East.  (And so too with any future games after VN & ME.)  "Living games" -- they're what we develop, sell, and pledge to support.
Campaign Series Legion https://cslegion.com
Campaign Series Lead Coder https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=1515
Panzer Campaigns, Panzer Battles Lead Coder https://wargameds.com

Crossroads

Campaign Series 1.02 UPDATE - Open Beta

We're trying something new here to create a even closer interaction with our users by having our next 1.02 UPDATE available as an early open beta.

See below for list of enhancements and bug fixes.

Download available here.

QuoteThe 1.02 Update Open Beta Patch includes (as of 20151223):

OBA and airstrikes bug fixes.
New feature: Options > Cursor > Small/Standard/Large, also Options > Cursor > Enhanced.
New feature: Options > Details > Persistent.
Air Model revisions.
Scenario edits due to above.
Scenario nomenclature edit based on user note.
Revised manual.
Revised terrain graphics from Crossroads.
More UI elements adapted to the new Box Art motif.
Other minor UI tweaks.
Revised platoon file based on a comment from Warhorse.
A new augmented logging system, for facilitating remote debugging.
Revised UK graphics from Warhorse/papalazaru5.
New scenario from vonkrieg.
New scenario from Jason Petho (Historical, No Match for the 100, Bir Gifgafa 2 1967 - night battle. nasty).

The final, official 1.02 UPDATE will also eventually include:

Additional Scenarios (probably a few).
More revised terrain graphics from Crossroads.
More revised unit graphics from Warhorse/papalazaru5.
Any bugs fixed noted by users.

Please let us know if you spot anything, and keep those ideas and suggestions coming  :)

Merry Christmas / Season's Greetings everyone!
Campaign Series Legion | CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 | CS: Middle East 1948-1985

CS: Vietnam DAR: LZ Albany as NVA (South Vietnam 11/17/65)  
CS: Middle East AARs: High Water Mark (Syria 10/12/73) Me vs Berto | Riptide (Libya 8/6/85) Me vs Berto | The Crossroads (West Bank 6/5/67)  Me vs Berto

Boardgame AARs: AH D-Day | MMP PanzerBlitz2 Carentan | OSS Putin's Northern War | GMT Next War: Poland | LnL Against the Odds DIY

Crossroads

#43
Among the new stuff included is a completely revised 2D terrain. I prefer my maps to have that genuine watercolored look, so with this version I decided to take a good few steps towards that direction.

There's been a couple of comments this might be a step too far. Ha, like that would be possible! Always appreciate the feedback, so  please do let me know how you find the 2D side of things with 1.02 beta.

For comparison;

1.00 / 1.01 Desert View:



1.02 Desert View:



1.00 / 1.01 Mediterranean View:



1.02 Mediterranean View:


Campaign Series Legion | CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 | CS: Middle East 1948-1985

CS: Vietnam DAR: LZ Albany as NVA (South Vietnam 11/17/65)  
CS: Middle East AARs: High Water Mark (Syria 10/12/73) Me vs Berto | Riptide (Libya 8/6/85) Me vs Berto | The Crossroads (West Bank 6/5/67)  Me vs Berto

Boardgame AARs: AH D-Day | MMP PanzerBlitz2 Carentan | OSS Putin's Northern War | GMT Next War: Poland | LnL Against the Odds DIY

berto

Campaign Series Legion https://cslegion.com
Campaign Series Lead Coder https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=1515
Panzer Campaigns, Panzer Battles Lead Coder https://wargameds.com