FoG:Emp team multiplayer ALPINE WALL vers 3: running!

Started by JasonPratt, December 01, 2019, 02:18:26 PM

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JasonPratt

Oh! -- that's weird, there were four players in when I sent it off; I assumed it was you. I guess Speedy got in?? Edited to add, yep Speedy in as Dalmatia.

We've only had one move; I can reset fast if you still want in!
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
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Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

Would you still like to be in as the Aedui, MD? We still haven't run our second turn yet. (Technically waiting on Ysk, but he may be waiting to hear from you again...)
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

Okay, heard back from MD, and he does still want to join as the Aedui, so I've created a 3rd ALPINE WALL game. (We've only played one turn in the current game, so there shouldn't be any problems.)

Password again is Grogs.

I can't cancel the current game yet, but if everyone ignores it going forward, it will stale out to AI and I can punt it then. (...I think. Worst case, I stale it out, too, and let the AI play all the pieces by itself as much as it wants.  O:-) )

The current game is v3, for a little clarity in telling the active games apart.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

Note to Yskonyn! -- consequently, as the remaining turn on the first game (or second game rather), just don't play that one, join up and replay your first turn in the v3 game.

(It is of course perfectly fine to keep playing the v2 game currently running, if anyone wants to do that, too; it could just be rather confusing to tell the difference between the active games. And you may have fewer human allies to communicate and plan with. Such as no Aedui watching our western flank at least!)
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Yskonyn

Sorry, holiday prep caused some delay and I hadn't checked here in a bit.

Ok, I am logged in for v3 ad Marco!
Let's get this rolling!
"Pilots do not get paid for what they do daily, but they get paid for what they are capable of doing.
However, if pilots would need to do daily what they are capable of doing, nobody would dare to fly anymore."

Tuna

Quote from: JasonPratt on December 10, 2019, 08:30:17 PM
Note to Yskonyn! -- consequently, as the remaining turn on the first game (or second game rather), just don't play that one, join up and replay your first turn in the v3 game.

(It is of course perfectly fine to keep playing the v2 game currently running, if anyone wants to do that, too; it could just be rather confusing to tell the difference between the active games. And you may have fewer human allies to communicate and plan with. Such as no Aedui watching our western flank at least!)

Can you kill the first one JP? So it's not hanging in the queue?

JasonPratt

I will kill the first one as soon as the system lets me (as I noted earlier), but there doesn't seem to be a way to do that yet -- not while it's still hanging in the queue anyway.

Meanwhile, everyone's in for the 3rd attempt, except for Speedy, so it'll start rolling when Speedy logs in!
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

As a reminder, since it's going to happen soon: the old Alpine Challenge game can just be surrendered when it finally cycles up in about an hour. (Ysk could play his turn and cycle it sooner, but he signed into the new one already).

PBEM+++ (or whatever it's called) doesn't track win/loss records, I think, and I'll be the first to surrender anyway.  O:-)

Again, anyone who wants to keep playing it is definitely welcome to do so! -- those who don't should surrender out asap so that the game won't be delayed much more for anyone who wants to keep playing it.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

Okay, Speedy's in, we're off and running on v3!

(I surrendered promptly out of the first game, which for technical reasons was also v2. So that isn't on my list anymore.)

As before, I'm sending a task force to go take the Isaurus region as soon as possible, so that I can provincialize asap, which from experimentation is practically the only way for me to have any chance to survive and thrive (and to bring in the remaining two Rhaeti regions, up on the alps, using help from the rest of my Rhaeti regions.)

MD as the Aedui may be the most exposed of our confederation, so I'll be looking next to move in his direction to link up so that in an emergency my troops can get into his land to help fight on his defense. (Though it may be some time before I can afford more troops.)

The Marcomanni should consider doing the same, not least because expanding that direction will be the fastest way for you to provincialize: you should be prioritzing regions in Germania Mediorirazzenfrazzen (I forget the latin, but middle Germany) because that's where the Marco's one starting region starts! I think you'll need to pick up four to provincialize (they have seven total iirc? Maybe eight?) And you should find enough expanding roughly westward toward the Aedui.

The game gives me the dumbest possible goals (including the Tarento boot), but fortunately none of them seem to be in y'all's way except for one in Middle Germany on my starting border. It's more important for the Marcos to have that one, however, so I'll gladly cede it.

I DO NOT recommend expanding into an area with only one workgroup, unless it's a region of an area you already provincialized and so can use your logistic help effectively. Even a region with only two workgroups could be pushing problems, especially if they have no properties on the ground yet. But this early in the game, in our area of Europe, there aren't many such good choices. (Dalmatia may have the best pick simply from having a wide enough border to provide options? Don't know.)
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Yskonyn

#39
For Marco do you suggest raising levies to increase my army presence?

We'll form a protective buffer towards Aedui is you plan, correct?

QUESTION: How do I assess the defensive capablity of a province I am targeting to attack? In other words, how can I get a reading on how feasible it would be to take X province from Y nation?
"Pilots do not get paid for what they do daily, but they get paid for what they are capable of doing.
However, if pilots would need to do daily what they are capable of doing, nobody would dare to fly anymore."

JasonPratt

Note that in this game the basic land areas are "regions", sometimes called territories perhaps. "Provinces" are a group of regions, collected under one governmental organization, with a Governor's building in the provincial capital -- an area that can be assigned by the game, as I learned the other day when forming the Rhaeti province! It wasn't in my national capital, nor in the region I clicked to form the province in! Consequently, all new troops formed 'over there', where I wasn't expecting them to appear.  :P

To answer the question somewhat literally, you take a province (per se) away from an opponent by seizing enough of their provincial regions to drop them below the minimum needed to sustain provincial government.

For example, say a province has seven regions in its geography. Your enemy currently holds four of them, the minimum needed for them to form the province. If you take one region away from them, you haven't seized control of the right to call the province yourself, but you've denied it to them. Once you take four of those regions yourself (they could be the three regions he doesn't have plus one they do have, for example), you can create the province under your own control.

Defensive capability assessment of a province depends on its regions and what you can see of the troops there in the fog of war, of course, so I'll drop down to the regional level.

The FOW in this game only affects troops and their movements, and even then is fairly simple: if you can see over a border, you can see whether there are mustered troops in that region, and you'll be able to see all of them, and accurately to their current status (green, yellow, or red). The game will also tally their combat power for you in some tooltips based on their flag. (The flag graphic itself can be a little misleading -- I've seen tattered flags for a fully green doomstack, so I have no idea what information the tattered flag was supposed to be giving me!)

What you CAN'T see, because they aren't there yet, are any units on order which may pop into existence as you come in! -- or which may move into a region from outside your view (though otherwise they already exist). That's a very normal strategy game situation, but it crops up with some regularity in this game I've noticed.

Regardless of whether you can see troops, I think you can always see the properties of any region on the map at any time: you can look down at Qatabia from Marcoman, and see what properties they've built for example. Some properties affect siege attempts (not always military/red properties!); and some affect garrison levels (usually red properties); and some do both. (Most properties have no such effects for defense.)

There are no siege engines in the game, so the question of how soon you can punch through enemy defenses depends on how many skirmishers and regular infantry (including variations like "warriors") they have in the town -- which will include inherent garrison units who spawn in when enemies arrive, and despawn out once enemies leave -- compared to how many regular infantry (and maybe skirms?? I forget) you're bringing to the siege. The enemy may be forced to throw them out at you into battle immediately if there aren't enough walls built in the regional city. (This has caught me by surprise before, to my loss!) You can always choose to break the siege and attack with what you've got, but you'll suffer problems if you haven't made enough holes in the walls. Defenders only need one year (turn) of freedom from hassle to totally rebuild walls, but you may need six or more years (turns) to punch through them depending on what you've brought.

Logistics can be a problem, too. Make sure you're attacking, if possible, from a region that has good food supply (possibly by being connected to a well-developed province), if the region you're attacking doesn't have a lot of food stored up or good foraging opportunities. Mousing over a region will tooltip you what its food production and usage currently are, and also what its forage level will be.

Your culture (maybe modified by your current leader and/or your nation status) will be able to keep up a certain (variable) number of units without maintenance costs (though you'll still have to pay buying costs if you don't have that many units yet). I think that applies logistically to invading places, too.

Some of this estimation gets thrown out the window when invading independent regions. Regions controlled by factions will never have inherent defenders spawning in the countryside (I think); but indie regions will spawn a certain number of units (based on various factors, primarily workgroup population) completely aside from any garrison spawns they may have!
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

So right now you have no factional regions on your borders, except for mine. If you mouse over mine, you'll see nothing saying you can expect x-number of defenders, and my regions next to yours don't have even a village yet to spawn garrison troops. (But if you mouse over MD's fort over in Aedui, you'll see the tooptip telling you to expect x-combat power worth of defenders spawning there.)

If you mouse over the gray regions next to you, the tooltip will tell you that you can expect x-number of troops to muster to meet you in defense. And if any of them have a village or fortified area (I don't think they will this early), you'll have to mouse over THAT to get an idea of the combat power in the garrison -- which will NOT be the number of garrison troops spawning in per se, and which will be totally separate from inherent troops spawning up to defend the region!

I think the minimum inherent regional defense is 3 units, but you won't know for sure what you'll have to fight until you go in.

Iirc, all the areas to your west (toward reaching Aedui and supporting MD) are forest for a while, so you should avoid bringing heavy infantry unless you have overwhelming power otherwise, because heavy infs have combat maluses in swamps, mountains, and forests.

The tooltip rolling over a region should tell you what kind of frontage you can expect. If you have more troops than the frontage, then they may be stuck behind the line during the fight and not contribute (unless there's a draw and the fight continues and they replace fallen troops as reserves). Skirmishers, including light cavalry, may start in front along the frontage gap, shoot/throw their things, and then withdraw behind the main front line. The game will tend to put your strongest available units on the front line with some random placement. If you have skirms (inf or cav) available to help fill out the front line, the game will try to put them on the flanks, so that if your front line is wider than theirs (within the hard limits imposed by natural terrain on available frontage) then whoever is on your flanks can and will get extra attacks on your enemy's flanking units. Trying to plan ahead for this can get weird in a forest or mountains, due to the very restricted natural frontage!

This should give you an idea, however, about what you can aim to bring for a front line and for its support, against what an enemy can be expected to bring to defense (keeping in mind you won't necessarily know what an indie has got when you initially invade them, only how many inherent troops will muster, and maybe the expected combat power of troops that will spawn in an indie garrison.)

Be careful about losing to indies, though! -- their garrisons (if any) will despawn after the fight, but their mustered defensive troops won't, and they can go on to be VERY SERIOUS threats, raiding and invading you where they detect weakness! Basically they will act like a new micro-faction, and can grow to occupy and manage a large number of regions!
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Tuna

The one big plus in this game is that we are allies. The tough part of this region/start is that all your neighbors are all usually attacking you. We will unite and dominate the map eventually!

Yskonyn

Thanks for the detailed write-up Jason!  :bd:
Looks like I will have to assign my current army to Garrison duty for a while as I grow my army.

IIRC one turn equal 1 game year. So I assume in 1 year multiple buildings can be built and multiple units can be trained?
"Pilots do not get paid for what they do daily, but they get paid for what they are capable of doing.
However, if pilots would need to do daily what they are capable of doing, nobody would dare to fly anymore."

JasonPratt

Alas, multiple buildings cannot be built in the same region in one year. Usually takes several years, especially at the start of the game!

Multiple units can be trained per turn, up to the limits of your resources, or 8 units per region whichever comes first. (Until you provincialize; then you can only train 8 units per turn in the whole province! But you'll share resources to make that easier.)
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!