Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread

Started by JasonPratt, September 17, 2018, 05:04:17 PM

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JasonPratt

#1560
Some thoughts on divvying up the responsibilities:

The priority war must be the Lusitanian Revolt, which will pick up the Hispanias if it isn't stopped. It can be stopped by staging fight inside one of that War's two targets. Ulterior Hispania has the strongest land strength of the two (2 instead of only 1), so the fight should be staged there. The two senators with 4 or 5 Mil skill are I.I.'s new Cornelius family replacement (Mil 4), and Tripoli's ascending Aelius family Senator (Mil 5).

(Note to I.I., you had a couple of harvested Influence points lying around, both of which could go to the new Cornelian family Senator, who certainly needs as much catchup help as he can get, so I have provisionally assigned them there. He now has Inf 7. If you'd rather they go somewhere else, let me know. At this late date I can't recall which of your other Senators can't get one of those points, so I'm willing to assign them as you wish.)

A Force needs to bring 6 (Lusitanian land strength) + 11 (slots before only Victories on the results) - 2 (Hispania Ulterior Land Strength) = 13 combat power to guarantee only Victories. Or 17 combat power to guarantee no casualties. (D/S risk aside!)

A Mil 4 senator (like Cornelius) with 4 Vets (4 + 4 Vet + 4 Mil = 12) and 1 regular Legion Deployed as a Garrison with him could get the Victory thought you'd be risking some losses. This would leave 3 Vets over to Deploy somewhere else and 17 regulars. (Note that you can switch out equivalents as you wish, two regulars for 1 Vet, or reduce things a little if you send Tripoli's guy, or if you send Macedonicus and politically finagle a way to avoid Proposing him for Censor this Turn as per my prior post's details.)


From this point it's a question of how much you want to risk no Victory. If you go after both IllWars, you'll need to bring 21 effective power against IllWar1 for only Victory (with possible casualties) and 15 striking power against IllWar 2. I don't think it is mathematically possible to do both with the Consuls and units remaining: FabiMax's 5 Mil + 3 Vets + 3 Vets extra strike + 10 regulars gets you only Victories (possibly some casualties, halved by FabiMax as Field Consul) leaving 7 regulars + Flam's 4 Mil = 11. That would leave most of the (i.e. four of the six) chances for Stalemate.

If you try to fight only the 1st IllWar (but not its sequel) plus the Macedonian War, with only the Consuls, you'll get a similar result except one point worse. (Because the Macedonian War would be the 10 point, and the 1st Ill would be normally one point stronger than the 2nd. Same point spread as for the two IllWars, plus 1.)

Conclusion: it isn't possible to fight three Wars with two Consuls and a Governor, unless you're willing to risk not only Legionary casualties (not even counting D/S casualty risks) but also the possibility of one of your Wars risking Stalemate.

Options:

1.) Pick two Wars and send enough units to safely push home with no losses on each of them (aside from D/S risks). Presumably the Lusitanian Revolt MUST be one of those two Wars, unless you have senators you want to be killed off as Governors when the Revolt (surely or almost surely) rolls over the Provinces!

2.) Appoint a Dictator and let him bring a MoH. Even then you're probably stuck with prosecuting only three of the four Wars and I'm still not entirely sure you can whittle down all three to only Victories, even if you bring Tripoli's two Ultra-Generals. In this case Flaminius the (Mil 4) Roman Consul would presumably stay home.

3.) Pick only one War, although that seems a waste of manpower. (But I include it to be comprehensive.)

4.) Pick three Wars (with two Consuls and a Spanish Governor doing the fighting) and accept the significant risk of possible Stalemate on one of them.
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malize

Hey, at this point I'd piss on a spark plug if I thought it'd help jumpstart things

I honestly don't care what we do anymore as long as it's doing something, I understand there's been trauma in the ranks, but it's time we get ourselves sorted and move the clock along.


Erax

All right, new Proposal, this time without a Dictator.

Aemilius gets Censor, as proposed before, and agrees to not prosecute anyone (I have to keep this in the contract).

The Progressives get the Land Commissioner concession.

The Conservatives get the Tax Farming concession, plus first pick from the three available provinces (considering that we can recall our non-aligned governor). They can nominate one of their Senators and everyone who is a part of the contract agrees to vote for that candidate.

The Plutocrats get second pick from the available provinces, as above.

The Populists get third pick from the available provinces.

Any remaining provinces can cycle back through the Conservatives - Plutocrats - Populists until they have no more candidates they wish to nominate or all provinces are accounted for.

On to the wars.

Fabius takes 8 regulars + 4 veterans vs. the Lusitanians, for a total of 5 + 8 + 8 - 6 = +15.
Flaminius takes 10 regulars + 3 veterans vs. the Illyrians, for a total of 4 + 10 + 6 - 5 = +15.

JasonPratt

Yes, you can always recall any Governor during any Senate Phase, so Sulpy can be recalled. He's a non-player character so he isn't going to complain. ;)

I'll need to look over this, this afternoon, to parse it in a valid procedural order.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

malize

Quote from: Erax on May 22, 2019, 12:00:03 PM
All right, new Proposal, this time without a Dictator.

Aemilius gets Censor, as proposed before, and agrees to not prosecute anyone (I have to keep this in the contract).

The Progressives get the Land Commissioner concession.

The Conservatives get the Tax Farming concession, plus first pick from the three available provinces (considering that we can recall our non-aligned governor). They can nominate one of their Senators and everyone who is a part of the contract agrees to vote for that candidate.

The Plutocrats get second pick from the available provinces, as above.

The Populists get third pick from the available provinces.

Any remaining provinces can cycle back through the Conservatives - Plutocrats - Populists until they have no more candidates they wish to nominate or all provinces are accounted for.

On to the wars.

Fabius takes 8 regulars + 4 veterans vs. the Lusitanians, for a total of 5 + 8 + 8 - 6 = +15.
Flaminius takes 10 regulars + 3 veterans vs. the Illyrians, for a total of 4 + 10 + 6 - 5 = +15.

Voting Yes, including any alterations Jason may have to make

JasonPratt

#1565
Okay, Erax's new Contract draft, in procedural order:

Third Mandatory Business, no Dictator appointed or put to open vote by the Consuls (Erax and Malize). Fourth Mandatory thus skipped, too.

Fifth Mandatory Business, Censor election: per the prior Consul Contract, Erax is required to give Aemilius Macedonicus a Censor Proposal as soon as possible if Erax's Roman Consul is PM (and so making Proposals). AzTank (AmMac's player) is required by agreement to the prior Contract, not to Prosecute the senators of any Player who agreed to that Contract (which is everyone), the next time AmMac becomes Censor (which would be this turn now).

Note that all Players would be required to vote for AemMac on this Censor Proposal in any case, whether they agree to this Contract or not, due to prior Contract agreement by all Players!

Sixth Mandatory Business: AzTank would gain PM duty, and would automatically hand it back to Erax's senator without Prosecutions, per the prior Contract (since all Players agreed to vote for AemMac as Censor, at his next Proposal for the Office, and he agreed not to Prosecute anyone who agreed to that Contract.)

Seventh Mandatory Business, Governors: the available Provinces are restricted to the two new Hispanias, and Sulpy's post at Gallia Cisalpina. All other Provinces already have Player characters as Governors, and no Player's senator will be voted to replace them this Turn. All joiners of this Contract will vote for Governors according to the following criteria.

Governor stage one: AzTank would get first pick to send out Furius (because Paullus will be the new Censor by then, and Terentius is already a Governor).

The Frog gets second pick, to send Claudius or Fulvius (since Acilius is already a Governor).

Malize of the Populists will choose a senator (not Field Consul FabiMax) to send to the remaining third Province.

Note that no one will be required to defend the Hispanias under this Contract plan.

Into Other Business:

Erax chooses a Progressive senator to be Proposed to get the Land Commission Concession. (Reminder: currently this is temporary and lasts only one Turn. It'll be up for vote again next turn.)

AzTank chooses a Conservative senator to be Proposed to get the respawned Tax Farming Concession.

FabiMax the Field Consul will Deploy to the Lusitanian Revolt, bringing 8 regulars + 4 Veterans (and Fleets for support as needed).

Flaminius the Roman Consul will Deploy to the 1st Illyrian War, bringing 10 regular and 3 Veteran Legions (and Fleets for support as needed).

With his departure, the Senate will close for this Turn.


Note: I have now sent an 'open' p-mail to all players alerting y'all of the Contract draft.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Ethel the Frog

Ill vote in favor.  Let me know if things get to where I should pick. 

Tripoli

Quote from: malize on May 20, 2019, 10:19:06 PM
Hey, at this point I'd piss on a spark plug if I thought it'd help jumpstart things

I honestly don't care what we do anymore as long as it's doing something, I understand there's been trauma in the ranks, but it's time we get ourselves sorted and move the clock along.

Sorry for the delay.  We are discussing a slight addendum to the contract.  Nothing that should be controversial. 
"Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?" -Abraham Lincoln

JasonPratt

#1568
I've checked over what Tripoli et al want to add as provisions and they're legal, but I'll let them present their request publicly.

In the process, however, as I was checking over my notes on rules about "public deals" (which I've been calling "Contracts", distinct from private deals which are not enforceable), I ran across a reminder about the three topics which cannot be included per the Living Rules be enforceable public deals (i.e. Contracts).

None of these topics are what Tripoli et al are discussing privately, by the way. Also, these can be private deals but then they aren't enforceable by any gamekeeper(s).

1.) no one can include a provision to assassinate someone. I'm going to add a house rule to my flowsheet which further excludes a provision to prevent prosecutions for assassination conspiracy. Relevantly, the current Contract draft would not prevent this anyway since Special Prosecutions trigger automatically, not by the choice of the Censor, but just in case I think a clarification should be added. Assassination rules are carefully balanced and Special Prosecutions are an important part of that balance!

2.) no one can include provisions requiring rebellion or loyalty in case of a Player rebelling against the Senate. (You might be able to include provisions ABOUT loyalty or rebellion, but those are grey areas and I'd have to judge the fairness on a case basis. This means a Player cannot use a Contract to promise that you yourself will not to rebel against the Senate, or to always be loyal!)

So far these topics haven't come up yet for public Contracting: refusing automatic CfL appointment yes, which I allowed partly because I knew there was a Law coming which would make the same effect for everyone generally; and I would allow a Contract excluding one's self from ever seeking legal vote for CfL. I can see how for tension balance, though, loyalty-rebellion Contracts should be avoided. We should never be entirely sure via game mechanics that Tripoli (to take the most obvious example -- again, this is not what they're discussing topically) won't return to Rome after a Victory, or from a Provincial staging ground as Governor, at the head of a rebel army!


But the third exclusion was annoying...  :pullhair:

3.) Consul elections cannot be part of Contracts.

You will all recall that Consul elections have often been part of Contracts, including the first one this Turn!

Pondering this exclusion, I don't understand and can't see what harm Contracted Consul elections would do, or have done to our game.

Thus, if Players want to keep Consul elections as part of Contracts, I'm willing to keep allowing it as a house rule. I would also be okay if someone figured out, and argued for, the purpose of forbidding Consul election agreements in Contracts.  O:-)
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Erax

JP, you need to add the two Concessions to your revised contract.

JasonPratt

Quote from: Erax on May 23, 2019, 05:02:43 AM
JP, you need to add the two Concessions to your revised contract.

Ack! -- true, updated now. Those would be done in Other Business before Deploying Forces with Commanders.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

ArizonaTank

Johannes "Honus" Wagner
"The Flying Dutchman"
Shortstop: Pittsburgh Pirates 1900-1917
Rated as the 2nd most valuable player of all time by Bill James.

JasonPratt

I'll have to check but I think that's a majority voting commitment!

If so, I'll start processing presently, although of course I'll have to stop occasionally to ask certain Players about the preferences.

Note that automatically processing this, does not preclude someone, whether in the Contract or not, from interjecting another Proposal by Tribune effect, although Contractors must not do so in a way that would break the flow of Proposals. Any Players who haven't signed on (currently I.I. and Tripoli) can still sign on at any time, and their votes will still be counted for Censor (since they did already Contract for that), but so far as I know their votes against any position would not be enough to overturn anything nor create effects for themselves, so I won't be checking if they want to vote no on any point.

Either of them might however choose to use a Tribune effect (if one or both of them have one -- they each have one unplayed Intrigue card), to interrupt the flow with a veto or with an alternate Proposal. The Contract does not stipulate that Contractors cannot vote on alternate Proposals mutually exclusive to the Contract Proposals, but whether an interruptor can muster enough support to make his sacrifice worth the effort is a whole other matter!

I mention this not because I know of any plots (which I don't), but because this Contracting has been particularly difficult and such principles might be important later going forward.  O:-)

To give anyone who might be plotting, a little more time to get any plans in order, just in case, I'll wait until tomorrow afternoon to start processing. Probably. Unless I hear different later tonight perhaps.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Tripoli

"Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?" -Abraham Lincoln

JasonPratt

#1574
That's certainly a super-majority, so here y'all go!

1.) Consuls Plautius and FabiMax agree not to appoint a Dictator. Thus also no MoH.

(Edited to update: neurons in my head rebelled and decided to switch up with each other, so that I forgot that Plautius, not Flaminius, was the new Roman Consul going forward this Turn. I originally typed 'Flaminius' or 'Flam' in the accounts below, but I think I've repaired them all properly to Plautius. If I haven't this note explains the situation at least.  L:-) #:-) )
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!