Hearts of Iron IV

[bbmike]

^1775:Rebellion, actually. Just about to start my first game. Bourbon's all poured.  8)

[mirth]

^Hell yeah. Good man!👍

[Greybriar]

Paradox has released a free 57-page strategy guide aimed at helping folks get started with info that goes beyond the tutorial and into how to play well. I'm only a few pages in, but so far it ain't half bad.

https://forumcontent.paradoxplaza.com/public/paradox/banners/HoI_IV_Strategy_Guide.pdf

Thanks for linking that! O0

[Ian C]

Hat's off to the Expert AI Mod. Played a great full game as UK a game from 36-45 and also getting my ass handed to me as the USSR against Germany. I've never lost a game before, playing vanilla, but this is thrashing me. I highly recommend this mod.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=741805475

[sandman2575]

I'm ambivalent about Expert AI mod. Just feels like it amps up the challenge at the cost of giving you an unhistorical game. It does things to 'min/max' production and stats that are just not realistic in my view. AI's division templates are case in point. I've often seen minor powers like Hungary and Lithuania fielding 'infantry' divisions that have 3-4 artillery battalions (*plus* arty coy.!) -- in HOI4 game terms, that works out to over 100 arty pieces. Yeah, no.

From a pure HoI4-rules perspective, yeah sure why not, spam artillery. Huge bang for buck. In historical terms...  I've tried to rationalize this as 'OK, maybe I can imagine that these 100+ arty 'infantry' divisions represent divisions with heavy supplemental support -- assigned corps assets and such.' But at the end of the day, I don't like having to alter my own playstyle (which tries to be reasonably historical) in order to counter the AI's 'gamey-ness.

[Ian C]

Of course you're right. I should have added 'historical accuracy notwithstanding'. It is challenging but not 100% accurate.

[solops]

I'm ambivalent about Expert AI mod. Just feels like it amps up the challenge at the cost of giving you an unhistorical game. It does things to 'min/max' production and stats that are just not realistic in my view. AI's division templates are case in point. I've often seen minor powers like Hungary and Lithuania fielding 'infantry' divisions that have 3-4 artillery battalions (*plus* arty coy.!) -- in HOI4 game terms, that works out to over 100 arty pieces. Yeah, no.

From a pure HoI4-rules perspective, yeah sure why not, spam artillery. Huge bang for buck. In historical terms...  I've tried to rationalize this as 'OK, maybe I can imagine that these 100+ arty 'infantry' divisions represent divisions with heavy supplemental support -- assigned corps assets and such.' But at the end of the day, I don't like having to alter my own playstyle (which tries to be reasonably historical) in order to counter the AI's 'gamey-ness.

This makes me want to just quit buying HOI games. Or even any wargames. It seems like the games were more competitive on an even footing basis before they got so complex. As I am only interested in the solo game, I think no features should be added or included in a game unless the AI is fully capable of using said feature competently.

[bboyer66]

I'm ambivalent about Expert AI mod. Just feels like it amps up the challenge at the cost of giving you an unhistorical game. It does things to 'min/max' production and stats that are just not realistic in my view. AI's division templates are case in point. I've often seen minor powers like Hungary and Lithuania fielding 'infantry' divisions that have 3-4 artillery battalions (*plus* arty coy.!) -- in HOI4 game terms, that works out to over 100 arty pieces. Yeah, no.

From a pure HoI4-rules perspective, yeah sure why not, spam artillery. Huge bang for buck. In historical terms...  I've tried to rationalize this as 'OK, maybe I can imagine that these 100+ arty 'infantry' divisions represent divisions with heavy supplemental support -- assigned corps assets and such.' But at the end of the day, I don't like having to alter my own playstyle (which tries to be reasonably historical) in order to counter the AI's 'gamey-ness.

This makes me want to just quit buying HOI games. Or even any wargames. It seems like the games were more competitive on an even footing basis before they got so complex. As I am only interested in the solo game, I think no features should be added or included in a game unless the AI is fully capable of using said feature competently.

Exactly. Lots of added complexity that the AI has no clue on how to utilize. Also the added complexity/minutia leads to players and the AI just trying to game the system and forego any historical accuracy. Really though, why in a Strategic Game of WWII are we deciding how much Arty, AT and AA to add to each Division. Make it simple, have a set type of different divisions (armor,infantry, mountain, paratroop, etc.) and you can improve the divisions based on a tech tree. Similar to what EU IV does. In my opinion they really need to just start from scratch with the whole HOI series.
As a side note, nothing turns me off more then seeing a small minor country such as say Bulgaria take over Europe. It is so unrealistic that you might as well be playing a game that takes place in Middle Earth. The biggest retort that I hear is that people do not want to be constrained by history, and I agree with this. However, you don't have to remove actual historical capabilities in order to do it. Maybe as Bulgaria I would join the Soviets instead of the Nazis, or try invading Greece. Things that are in the realm of actual possibility. Not taking out all of Europe with the mighty Bulgarian Empire. The problem is that the game just keeps adding more resources and manpower to a country,for every country it occupies. Creating a domino effect where even the tiniest of countries can just get more and more powerful by conquering its neighbors. In reality countries became weaker and weaker the more land they conquered due to having to occupy these countries in order to keep them under their heel. Obviously getting a portion of the conquered countries natural resources would be fair. But to get large numbers of manpower from a conquered country is ridiculous, especially in the time frame of a few years. 

[mikeck]

 This is the same issue that several of the later AGEOD  Games like "wars of Napoleon "or "pride of nations" had.  All sorts of bells and whistle's in the form of decisions and regional decisions and diplomacy and things like that that, on the surface made the game look complex but in reality were for things the AI could never figure out how to use; so they actually made the game easier because the player could use them and the computer could not

[sandman2575]

What gets me a bit down is that it doesn't appear there's going to be a 'big overhaul mod' that permanently transforms HOI4 for the better, the way CORE did HOI2 and BlackIce did HOI3. At least, from everything I've seen so far, none looks like it's in development. (I've said my piece more than once about how I think BlackIce is moving in the completely wrong direction in HOI4, so won't dwell on that now. Suffice it to say I don't have any hope that BI will rescue 4 the way it did 3.)

If I had any ability at all as a modder and could build my own dream HOI4 mod, a few things I'd prioritize right off the bat are:

1. Number of divisions and division templates. The AI still produces far, far too many divisions (mostly as a cover for lousy strategy, seems to me: "I may not know how to defend a front, but here are 500 divisions you'll have to fight your way through!"). Manpower allotments need to be severely adjusted so that Hungary can't field 150 divisions, nor Germany and USSR 700-1000. Much fewer divisions, and much better templates that bear some resemblance to historical reality. Letting the AI design its own templates is a fiasco. Give it standard division templates that are reasonably historically accurate.

2. Complete overhaul of logistics/supply and weather. Currently these factors are essentially negligible. Go ahead. Attack Russia in the dead of winter. Fight your way into the deepest recesses of Africa. Weather and logistics ain't gonna stop you in HOI4. *Really* needs to be improved.

3. Complete overhaul of naval warfare. This continues to be a mess. Submarines are useless. Doomstacks are the only way to go.

[Rayfer]

What gets me a bit down is that it doesn't appear there's going to be a 'big overhaul mod' that permanently transforms HOI4 for the better, the way CORE did HOI2 and BlackIce did HOI3. At least, from everything I've seen so far, none looks like it's in development. (I've said my piece more than once about how I think BlackIce is moving in the completely wrong direction in HOI4, so won't dwell on that now. Suffice it to say I don't have any hope that BI will rescue 4 the way it did 3.)

If I had any ability at all as a modder and could build my own dream HOI4 mod, a few things I'd prioritize right off the bat are:

1. Number of divisions and division templates. The AI still produces far, far too many divisions (mostly as a cover for lousy strategy, seems to me: "I may not know how to defend a front, but here are 500 divisions you'll have to fight your way through!"). Manpower allotments need to be severely adjusted so that Hungary can't field 150 divisions, nor Germany and USSR 700-1000. Much fewer divisions, and much better templates that bear some resemblance to historical reality. Letting the AI design its own templates is a fiasco. Give it standard division templates that are reasonably historically accurate.

2. Complete overhaul of logistics/supply and weather. Currently these factors are essentially negligible. Go ahead. Attack Russia in the dead of winter. Fight your way into the deepest recesses of Africa. Weather and logistics ain't gonna stop you in HOI4. *Really* needs to be improved.

3. Complete overhaul of naval warfare. This continues to be a mess. Submarines are useless. Doomstacks are the only way to go.

There's a Black Ice mod in the Steam Workshop for HoI4.  I haven't played it so I can't comment on how effective it is.

[dinsdale]

What gets me a bit down is that it doesn't appear there's going to be a 'big overhaul mod' that permanently transforms HOI4 for the better

Maybe its just not possible. HOI4 can join Crusader Kings 1, March of Eagles and probably some others, which just never work out.

I didn't buy HOI4, so I'm hoping Paradox realize its done, learn from it and move on.

Exactly. Lots of added complexity that the AI has no clue on how to utilize.

I'm not sure that adds up. HOI has been getting less complex or euphemistically 'streamlined' with each version since HOI1. The AIs for 1 and 2 weren't good, they made poor decisions, but they seemed to understand the game. HOI3 seemed competent on land and in production.

Maybe every great AI programmer is at Tesla, Amazon, Apple or Google and they aren't interested in earning a 10th of their wages to make games :)

[jamus34]

What gets me a bit down is that it doesn't appear there's going to be a 'big overhaul mod' that permanently transforms HOI4 for the better, the way CORE did HOI2 and BlackIce did HOI3. At least, from everything I've seen so far, none looks like it's in development. (I've said my piece more than once about how I think BlackIce is moving in the completely wrong direction in HOI4, so won't dwell on that now. Suffice it to say I don't have any hope that BI will rescue 4 the way it did 3.)

If I had any ability at all as a modder and could build my own dream HOI4 mod, a few things I'd prioritize right off the bat are:

1. Number of divisions and division templates. The AI still produces far, far too many divisions (mostly as a cover for lousy strategy, seems to me: "I may not know how to defend a front, but here are 500 divisions you'll have to fight your way through!"). Manpower allotments need to be severely adjusted so that Hungary can't field 150 divisions, nor Germany and USSR 700-1000. Much fewer divisions, and much better templates that bear some resemblance to historical reality. Letting the AI design its own templates is a fiasco. Give it standard division templates that are reasonably historically accurate.

2. Complete overhaul of logistics/supply and weather. Currently these factors are essentially negligible. Go ahead. Attack Russia in the dead of winter. Fight your way into the deepest recesses of Africa. Weather and logistics ain't gonna stop you in HOI4. *Really* needs to be improved.

3. Complete overhaul of naval warfare. This continues to be a mess. Submarines are useless. Doomstacks are the only way to go.

With #1) I think they were gunshy on how much people complained about the OOB micro management that was required in HOI3...but guess what, because you wanted leaders for each corps on up so you were limited by your senior staff (rightly so). I also do not like the point set up for divisions. Anytime you want to set up a new division template you should get say 200 pts for the initial. I do like using the points to upgrade individual elements and feel that is something good they should pull from HOI4.

Air warfare- I do not like the new setup in HOI4. Often I find it limits what you can do based on the range of a plane. I think HOI3 was far superior here. Again it required more micromanagement but gave more control.

Focuses - I am torn on this. I like them as since this is ultimately a strategic game it can add non-historical bends to the greater theater but wish there was a little more randomness in what you can pick. I think I would have liked it better if you had say 2-4 initial choices and depending on what you pick vs what other countries in your sphere of interest pick the next level of choices can change.

Sea warfare - I doubt they'll ever get this right. That said I'm not sure what can be done to fix it. It really doesn't work except in the extremes of turn based strategy or pure RTS. In HOI a sea battle happens in a mere blink compared to land warfare so how do you model it?

I'm by no means an expert, just my thoughts / opinions. I think it is the most accessible HOI and has some real interesting concepts.

[glen55]

New dev diary worth checking out at https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hoi4-dev-diary-future-and-cornflakes.1040806/

Devs are a little close-mouthed about the near future, other than saying that the next patch is going to come with "a full-sized expansion. . . [with] more mechanics and larger changes," along with a free 1.5 patch called "cornflakes."

Probably of greater interest is what they said about the long-term plans for the title:

• Improve flavor and immersion with naming of things in the game. No more Infantry Division Type 1 etc.
  More player control over naval warfare and fleet battle behaviour
  A Chain of Command system allowing field marshals to command generals
  A logistics system with more actual player involvement (now you only care once stuff has gone very badly)
  Improved naval combat interfaces with good transparency to underlying mechanics (give it the 1.4 air treatment)
  Improve balance, feedback and mechanics for submarine warfare
  Long term goals and strategies to guide ai rather than random vs historical focus lists, visible to players
  Every starting nation has a custom portrait for historical leaders
  A way for players to take dynamic decisions, quickly. Something that fits between events and national focuses.
  Spies and espionage
  Changing National Unity to something that matters during most of the game rather than when you are losing only
  Improving peace conferences
  Update core national focus trees with alt-history paths and more options (Germany, Italy, USA, United Kingdom, Soviet, France, Japan)
  Wunderwaffen projects
  Properly represent fuel in some way in the game
  Add the ability to clean up your equipment stockpile from old stuff
  Rework how wars work with respect to merging etc as its a big source of problems
  More differences between sub-ideologies and government forms
  More National Focus trees. (Among most interesting: China, South America, Scandinavia, Spain, Turkey, Iran, Greece)
  An occupation system that isnt tied only to wars and where core vs non-core isn't so binary for access to things.
  Make defensive warfare more fun
  Adding mechanics to limit the size of your standing army, particularly post-war etc
  Allow greater access to resources through improving infrastructure
  Have doctrines more strongly affect division designing to get away from cookie cutter solutions and too ahistorical gamey setups

[jamus34]

So had a my nth game as Germany. Made it all the way to late 39 until war with USSR broke out (France went red).

Fighting the war for about a year to realize the air war is doing nothing.  :pullhair:

I believe this is the oak 1.4.2 patch. Might be the .1 though. I have two visual only mods enabled. Going to start a game as Italy to see if it's me or the game. Frustrated to no end as I actually am starting to figure out the balancing act of construction vs production vs squad training.