Germany lifts HARD ban on swastikas in games? Good or bad idea?

Started by Destraex, August 11, 2018, 04:03:11 AM

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airboy

Fighting for the Hammer & Sickle has always been close to impossible for me.  Communism was the ideology who killed and oppressed more people in the last 150 years than any other.  This is why I've always had difficulty playing any WW2 Eastern Front game.  I really don't want the commies to win.  I don't want the Nazis to be triumphant.  Mental contradictions ensue.  I've even had people here remark on how much I hate the Commies.

I'm sure others have similar difficulties about other periods of history.  If I did not know as much as I do about both the Nazis and Communism it would not bother me so much.

But as Greybriar said, I prefer historical accuracy over historical inaccuracy.  So in wargames I prefer accurate flags, uniforms and equipment.

Jarhead0331

Quote from: sandman2575 on August 12, 2018, 09:21:13 AM
Quote from: trailrunner on August 12, 2018, 06:21:29 AM
If it wasn't for the *very* heavy police presence protecting the Nazis, I doubt that they would make it out of town alive.  In fact, it's going to take a lot of police protection to even make into DC.

Give me a break. This isn't the Selma to Montgomery march, where the participants actually did have to fear for their lives. Just ask Congressman John Lewis. These Nazis aren't in danger, though they love to play the victims.  You may possibly recall that it wasn't a Nazi who was killed at the Charlotte white supremacist rally last year. 

I really prefer to keep politics out of this forum, so that's the last I'll say on this. I'm sure my political views are well to the left of many folks here. I appreciate that admirably little of the idiotic political divisiveness that defines much of everything else these days doesn't infect the Grogheads community. And so I generally keep my political views out of things here, knowing that most of the community adheres to that wise rule.

But there's only so much "lefties are idiots and the real intolerant ones" that I can stomach. Some lefties are intolerant, no question. Some have even been known to be idiots  ;)  But spare me the sympathy and concern for the safety of Nazis whose entire ideology is based on racial superiority and racial hatreds, in a word, intolerance.

I think you misinterpreted the point trailrunner was making. He was responding to another comment that suggested that Americans are tolerant of Nazis or white supremacists, and in response, trailrunner was noting that there is an extreme amount of anti-nazi sentiment in DC...so much so that they will need heavy police protection for their defense. I think you guys are on the same side.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


mikeck

And in fact, there are DHS employees in Portland Oregon who have been repeatedly attacked and threatened by leftist ANTIFA members for weeks while the police -under orders from the city- refuse to respond to 911 calls

There are those who are threatened by others on both sides of the political spectrum. 

On topic, I'm glad to see the ban on the symbol removed to some extent. It always seemed ridiculous to me that one would be less inclined to engage in national socialism simply because you can't use a symbol.
Admittedly however, I'm not completely sure as to the purpose of the ban. I get banning a national socialist party but not a symbol when used for historical purposes.
"A government large enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have."--Thomas Jefferson

Ubercat

I'm pretty certain that no one on this forum has "sympathy and concern for the safety" of white supremacists. Although, if we were to follow the lefts vastly drifted definition of white supremacy, we should be because it includes the great majority of western civilization.
"If you have always believed that everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards, that would have gotten you labelled a radical 50 years ago, a liberal 25 years ago, and a racist today."

- Thomas Sowell

mikeck

Quote from: Ubercat on August 12, 2018, 10:45:43 AM
I'm pretty certain that no one on this forum has "sympathy and concern for the safety" of white supremacists. Although, if we were to follow the lefts vastly drifted definition of white supremacy, we should be because it includes the great majority of western civilization.

Yes...ANTIFA and their ilk labeling anyone who isn't behind their brand of socialism a "fascist" or Nazi does as much as anything to dilute what the Nazis really were.
"A government large enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have."--Thomas Jefferson


Tuna

Shouldn't this be moved to the Religion/Politics/Flame Wars section?

sandman2575

If I misinterpreted trailrunner's point, I apologize. But it did appear to me that he was saying that the Neo-Nazis demonstrating in DC have genuine reason to fear for their safety and even lives -- as though they're the ones who need to be protected from mindless violence and intolerance, rather than being the ones promulgating the same. I strongly dispute that notion, as I do other caricatures of the activist political Left as being essentially little better than a mob of rabid, Leninist-spouting Antifa goons. 

Anyway, I really have said my piece and won't comment on this further. I've broken my own rule about not injecting politics into the Grogheads forums -- or more accurately, it's not my own rule, but seems to be an unspoken Grogheads rule that this community does an excellent job of following, regardless of one's Left- or Right-leaning beliefs.

We can disagree without being disagreeable!  Now back to less controversial topics -- like Battlefront's plans for CM Shock Force 2.   ;)

Toonces

Sandman,
I realize this might tank the thread to R&P, and you've said your piece, but I genuinely don't understand your point.

"the Neo-Nazis demonstrating in DC have genuine reason to fear for their safety and even lives -- as though they're the ones who need to be protected from mindless violence and intolerance, rather than being the ones promulgating the same. "

Both of those statements in the quote are true.  The neo-Nazis are hateful people, yet at the same time, the general public abhors them and their message so much that they actually do require protection to keep from being harmed while exercising their right to protest.

I'm not sure what exactly you're arguing. 
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

Jarhead0331

Everyone is being respectful, and so long as the thread remains tangentially related to the subject of swastikas in games, I don't see any overly compelling reason to move the post to RPFW.

Thanks to everyone for debating a controversial and easily inflammable topic in a rational and courteous manner. 
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


sandman2575

Hey toonces -- I know your question is a sincere one -- but I think it's best if I stick to my promise to keep my yap shut further on the topic of Neo-Nazis / Antifa in DC.

Regarding the swastikas thing -- I actually think the lifting of the ban in video games is the right call, perhaps even an overdue one. On the one hand, I understand why the Federal Rep. of Germany banned Nazi symbols and think that was overall the correct decision at the time. I wouldn't want to see that kind of suppression of freedom of speech in the USA, but I think Germany's situation is unique and think that Germany has a special obligation to prevent the symbols/regalia of the 3rd Reich from ever becoming normalized in German political life again. In general I think the Germans -- post 1968 at least -- have done a very admirable job of reckoning in honest, open, public fashion with the evils of Nazism and refusing to ever whitewash that history.

That said, I can't see what real use was served by the banning of Nazi symbols in games that are clearly meant to represent the the historical period of WW2. That to me does seem to represent a misguided attempt to whitewash history. I guess the distinction I would want to make is between using the swastika in present-day political discourse (I'd say no), and using it in historical representations of the period (I'd say yes). I would not want to see AfD or other far-right parties in Germany resurrect the swastika as a political symbol. But I have no problem whatsoever in seeing the swastika used in video games like Hearts of Iron or you name it.

Anyway, my $0.02 on the matter...

Ubercat

Quote from: sandman2575 on August 12, 2018, 03:25:14 PM
I would not want to see AfD or other far-right parties in Germany resurrect the swastika as a political symbol. ...

Have you seen any indication that the AfD has any fascist leanings? AFAICT AfD is simply concerned with protecting German culture and heritage from the foreign invaders brought in by Merkel's open border unlimited immigration policies. That's a threat created by the EU to all of western Europe, not just Germany.
"If you have always believed that everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards, that would have gotten you labelled a radical 50 years ago, a liberal 25 years ago, and a racist today."

- Thomas Sowell

MikeGER

Quote from: Ubercat on August 12, 2018, 08:28:47 PM
AFAICT AfD is simply concerned with protecting German culture and heritage from the foreign invaders brought in by Merkel's open border unlimited immigration policies. That's a threat created by the EU to all of western Europe, not just Germany.

This  O0
the AfD, with about 6 Mio voters in last election for the Bundestag, is as far right as the Bavarian CSU always was since 1945
(or promised to be in the last years, but got often sacked by Merkel's overruling as chancellor in the cabinet, and so even in Bavaria, where election are due in October! the AfD will be taken voters away from the CSU)

Outside of Bavaria you have no choice then to vote AfD, if you liked the former politics of Kohl and Straus
(since Merkel had steered the CDU so far to the green-left, that she actually had split the CDU. Most of the older AfD leading politicians have a long history in the CDU)

before Brant, et alii, shows up to spit his blown out of proportion vitriol with some hasty grabbed "journalist personal  comments disguised as serious"-articles from the internet about the AfD ...   
I have to admit that in Saxony and Thuringia, some local state AFD politicians like to shock the media regularly with harsh patriotic speeches and snarl when addressing their very own crowd at a local party rally event.
Often it seems with calculating in the shitstorm for publicity gain, when the Left surly release a storm with the help of their friendly media, after picking on a singled out phrase in those speeches.
young upcoming AfD politicians in the West so, who overstretched and copy cat that 'shock-method' to gain personal publicity, got kicked out of the AfD for good.

the AFD party logo shown in the pic below is far more shocking then a swastica, its an "erected penis".  :o   No, i am joking its a kind of upward arrow crossed with a smile ^-^
   

bayonetbrant

 C:-) C:-) C:-) MOD HAT ON   C:-) C:-) C:-)

You guys would do well to heed Jarhead's note above. 


within hours of his note about how civil and game-focused this has remained it immediately went right back to politics-without-discussing-the-game


Keep your rounds within the range fans, or this topic will get shut down.

<:-) PARTY HAT BACK ON  <:-)
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JudgeDredd

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