Two New Tiller Games: Naval Campaign Wolfpack and Wellington's Peninsular War

GaryMc · December 01, 2019, 10:09:43 AM

No, I'd also like to see games with a more operational bent, but that's not what this one is. The current campaign engine doesn't allow me to track lost ships from battle to battle for instance, which is why I couldn't do a full ONS-5 campaign (which still isn't what you're looking for, but to give you an idea.)

-budd- · December 01, 2019, 12:37:40 PM

looking forward to the AAR, thanks for doing it.

ArizonaTank · December 01, 2019, 12:51:56 PM

I am interested in Wolfpack as well, but a little hesitant.

The game I really want to play would be something like a computer version of Compass Game's Steel Wolves, with tactical battles thrown in. Basically managing your U-boat fleet and deciding where to concentrate patrols.

Wolfpack sounds like it might just be a bunch of tactical battles strung together to make a campaign (just like every other JTS campaign game). Did I get that wrong?

GaryMc · December 01, 2019, 01:27:22 PM

No, that's pretty accurate as to what the campaign is. As I said, I'd like to see more operational naval games, but this isn't that.

Grim.Reaper · December 01, 2019, 05:22:55 PM

Thanks for doing this...can't wait until see what happens when the shooting starts....may not be able to hold off on this one:)

Old TImer · December 01, 2019, 06:50:12 PM

I was interested enough to check it out. Seems we're still waiting for an operational
version of the Battle of the Atlantic. Stunning that it hasn't been done before now.
I'd buy that in a heartbeat. Doesn't sound like Wolfpack is the game I'm looking for.

Tripoli · December 01, 2019, 07:08:34 PM

Quote from: gregb41352 on December 01, 2019, 06:50:12 PM
I was interested enough to check it out. Seems we're still waiting for an operational
version of the Battle of the Atlantic. Stunning that it hasn't been done before now.
I'd buy that in a heartbeat. Doesn't sound like Wolfpack is the game I'm looking for.

I'm a bit surprised it hasn't been done yet either. There are some excellent tactical subsims (Silent Hunter 3 and 4, for instance). There really hasn't been a good operational level battle of the Atlantic computer game. If someone were to make one that incorporated tactical surface and submarine warfare, I would be a definite buyer. In terms of board games, Steel Wolves and Silent War come closest to doing the Atlantic and Pacific submarine war, but I would like something that combined them with the tactical game that "Wolfpack" seems to offer.

Geezer · December 02, 2019, 06:36:23 AM

Wolfpack video on Youtube. I have not watched it yet but wanted to link it here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo0APRspFDE

Skoop · December 02, 2019, 11:48:19 PM

I'd actually like to see this bolted onto a subsim. Like Empires is to Field of Glory 2.

Tripoli · December 03, 2019, 01:54:53 PM

Quote from: Skoop on December 02, 2019, 11:48:19 PM
I'd actually like to see this bolted onto a subsim. Like Empires is to Field of Glory 2.

Absolutely. Tiller already has a surface (Guadacanal) and naval air (Midway) modeled using this engine. With submarines (Wolfpack), he could do the entire battle of Atlantic at the operational/strategic level. In 2 player. THAT, I would buy in a heartbeat. Heck, I might still buy Wolfpack because it is the only game that models WWII ASW warfare (at least that I'm aware of). But an operational/strategic Battle of the Atlantic 1939-1944 (with a 1945-46 add on with German super-submarines) would definitely get my dollars.

Edit: Followed, of course, by a separate title covering the US submarine campaign against Japan.....
Edit 2: Somehow I forgot to mention the Mediterranean 1939-1942 title.....

Skoop · December 03, 2019, 03:08:09 PM

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of this being bolted onto a sim like Wolfpack(the sim on steam) or the game Uboat(on steam) or even one of the silent hunter games.

Tripoli · December 03, 2019, 03:23:33 PM

Quote from: Skoop on December 03, 2019, 03:08:09 PM
Actually I was thinking more along the lines of this being bolted onto a sim like Wolfpack(the sim on steam) or the game Uboat(on steam) or even one of the silent hunter games.

Something like that is being done over at Subsim, using "Steel Wolves" as the campaign engine and Wolfpack for the tactical. See https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=297. I was part of the "Wolves in the Pacific" and "Wolves at War" which tried doing something related back in 2010 with SH3 and SH4. It was a lot of fun.

I'm not sure Tiller games could bolt their naval campaigns engine onto a tactical game like SH3 or Wolfpack. Sliterine was able to do it with FoGII and FoG Empires, but they are the only company I've ever heard that has been able to get two different developers to weld their games together into one system. More likely, Tiller would have to develop his own campaign overlay and port the Naval Campaigns system into it.

FarAway Sooner · December 04, 2019, 10:43:17 PM

I wonder if a realistic sub warfare simulation at the theater level would be a satisfactory gaming experience? Consider the real WW II experience:

1. The Allies only knew if they sank a sub about half the time, especially when it was done by the air force.
2. The Allies won the Battle of the Atlantic as much by reducing the time U-boats spent in combat zones as by sinking them. How much fun is it to just make a U-boat dive ten times a day while transiting the Bay of Biscay?
3. A huge part of the success in the struggle came from the evolution of doctrines, and their applications in tandem. Consider: A) Putting 10cm radar on a plane overflying a convoy helped but didn't have a major impact; B) Putting 10cm radar on a plane overflying a convoy and then using it to route escorts to specific locations was hugely effective; C) Escort carriers (CVEs) were useless in attacking surface targets but brilliant at convoy escort duty; D) King's refusal to put Allied ships in convoys on the Eastern Seaboard of the US in the first six months of the war almost cost the Allies the Battle of the Atlantic; E) If Hitler had been willing to produce U-boats instead of the Bismarck and the Tirpitz, things might have ended totally differently; F) American refusal to use British intelligence abut U-boat locations and destinations for the first 12 months of the war had a disastrous impact on the American contribution to the Battle of the Atlantic; G) Getting plane-basing rights in the Azores did a lot to close the last viable hunting grounds for U-boats in the Atlantic.

How do you simulate all that stuff?

I'm not saying a theater-level sub warfare game couldn't be fun. But, it would be extremely hard to package the real ebb and flow of doctrine and technology and politics into a satisfying game experience.

GaryMc · December 04, 2019, 11:25:12 PM

I think it could be very interesting, but I honestly think a tactical layer would overload it. I think the BIG thing that you would end up putting your turn to turn (week to week?) focus is on routing and positioning on both sides. Allies try to route convoys in safe ways, and Germans try to intercept. It would need a very robust SigInt system for both sides, since both sides were reading way more mail than the other side had any real idea.

It could be done in an interesting way, but it's certainly not something I'm working on :)