Dominions 3 Middle Age "GROGHAMMER" game [running]

Started by JasonPratt, April 03, 2013, 10:16:14 AM

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Bison

The level 7 thingy that you all keep talking about means nothing to me.  Nor does it prevent me from mindlessly through wave after wave of my meager armies against them!

W8taminute

I have a few questions regarding Gem use and magic on the battlefield. 

1. Does a magic user need to have gems in his personal inventory in order to cast battle spells?  (I'm assuming the magic user has the appropriate magic path and level required to cast the battle spell)
2. Are gems consumed on a per round/battle battle magic cast or do they stay in the magic users inventory forever?
3. Maybe related to question 2 but here goes: Why is it that sometimes after a battle my magic user does not have a gem in his inventory that he had prior to the battle?  I find that I'm constantly sending runners from my capital to the front who brings in gems to supply the frontline magic users.
"You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend."

Romulan Commander to Kirk

elitesix

Quote from: W8taminute on April 23, 2013, 12:39:22 PM
I have a few questions regarding Gem use and magic on the battlefield. 

1. Does a magic user need to have gems in his personal inventory in order to cast battle spells?  (I'm assuming the magic user has the appropriate magic path and level required to cast the battle spell)

Only if the spell requires gems. Also recognize that there are rituals (non-combat spells) and combat spells; sometimes it easy to mix up the two. You also correct that having the magic path level is required.

However, having gems for gemless spells or having more gems than you need even for gemmed spells has an advantage: the AI will occasionally use extra gems to boost the effectiveness of a spell that doesn't require gems - basically my understanding is 1 gem = 1 higher magic level for that spell.

Some spells are more effective with higher spell levels (look for "+" and "++" in spell descriptions), and all spells cost less fatigue at higher levels (fatigue formula is true spell fatigue cost = spell fatigue / (actual magic level / required magic level). So if you have a spell that requires 2 air and uses 100 fatigue, at 3 air it uses 66.7 fatigue (100/ (3/2))

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2. Are gems consumed on a per round/battle battle magic cast or do they stay in the magic users inventory forever?

Gems are consumed when the spell is cast.

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3. Maybe related to question 2 but here goes: Why is it that sometimes after a battle my magic user does not have a gem in his inventory that he had prior to the battle?  I find that I'm constantly sending runners from my capital to the front who brings in gems to supply the frontline magic users.

It probably has to do with the effect of boosting magic levels that the AI does on occasion in 1. The AI doesn't use gems in trivial battles (regardless of scripting), but don't rely on that. If you have gems on your casters and you want to conserve them, you need to script them to do nothing (holdx5 stay behind troops) until a turn comes where you think you need to unleash them (ie, shadow blast x5, cast spells, etc)

undercovergeek

Quote from: Bison on April 23, 2013, 12:30:44 PM
The level 7 thingy that you all keep talking about means nothing to me.  Nor does it prevent me from mindlessly through wave after wave of my meager armies against them!

in the game options at the start that jason has set up - there is an 'indy strength' meter that defaults to 5 and usually gets left there and consequently some nations go thru them like a knife thru butter but jasons upped their strength to 7 - i presume out of 10 and theyre a bit tougher and more numerous

byrdman57

Quote from: W8taminute on April 23, 2013, 12:39:22 PM
I have a few questions regarding Gem use and magic on the battlefield. 

1. Does a magic user need to have gems in his personal inventory in order to cast battle spells?  (I'm assuming the magic user has the appropriate magic path and level required to cast the battle spell)
2. Are gems consumed on a per round/battle battle magic cast or do they stay in the magic users inventory forever?
3. Maybe related to question 2 but here goes: Why is it that sometimes after a battle my magic user does not have a gem in his inventory that he had prior to the battle?  I find that I'm constantly sending runners from my capital to the front who brings in gems to supply the frontline magic users.

I think, as a good rule of thumb, any battle spell that has a battlefield wide effect (such fire arrows, that gives all your archers enchanted flaming arrows) requires a gem to cast. Also, I think most of the battlefield summons (like summon earth elemental) requires a gem to cast. Of course, those are different from the ritual spells that permanently summons a creature into your army, but is cast outside of battle.

undercovergeek

my understanding also was even for a gemless spell, if the caster had a gem he could use that instead and not suffer any fatigue

W8taminute

I see.  So I have to pay attention what my magic users are capable of casting on the battle field according to my tech level in a particular school of magic.  Using ritual spells outside of battles is self explanatory.  The gems come out of your national treasury but the magic user must be in a province with a lab.

After checking the manual, I see that none of the battlefield spells require gems at least it doesn't indicate gems are needed.  I'll have to check the wikis out there to verify. 

Having the correct gems in the magic users inventory helps him cast the spells more forcefully and perhaps save him from getting tired.  Meaning he can cast something like smite multiple times per battle because he won't get as tired as he would without the aid of extra gems in the right path.  I think I get it now.
"You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend."

Romulan Commander to Kirk

elitesix

Quote from: W8taminute on April 23, 2013, 02:25:36 PM
After checking the manual, I see that none of the battlefield spells require gems at least it doesn't indicate gems are needed.  I'll have to check the wikis out there to verify. 

There are quite battlefield spells that require gems. Off the top of my head, most of the low level combat summons require gems,  Earthquake (Evocation 5, Earth 3, requires 3 earth gems). There are definitely quite a few out there. All of the really good ones :) They are listed in game - you don't have to have them researched - just go your laboratory and start clicking !

Also, fatigue from spellcasting also comes from base encumbrance. That is not reduced by gems. I say this because I believe smite costs zero faitgue, but adds fatigue through spellcasting encumbrance.

undercovergeek

Quote from: W8taminute on April 23, 2013, 02:25:36 PM
I see.  So I have to pay attention what my magic users are capable of casting on the battle field according to my tech level in a particular school of magic.  Using ritual spells outside of battles is self explanatory.  The gems come out of your national treasury but the magic user must be in a province with a lab.

After checking the manual, I see that none of the battlefield spells require gems at least it doesn't indicate gems are needed.  I'll have to check the wikis out there to verify. 

Having the correct gems in the magic users inventory helps him cast the spells more forcefully and perhaps save him from getting tired.  Meaning he can cast something like smite multiple times per battle because he won't get as tired as he would without the aid of extra gems in the right path.  I think I get it now.

youve got it - this is why multiple labs come in useful across the map

JasonPratt

Quote from: Ogaburan on April 23, 2013, 10:18:16 AM
I like 7, slows the game down somewhat
Dosent let early rushers take 2-3 Indy provinces at a time.

In some cases. ;)
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JasonPratt

Quote from: elitesix on April 23, 2013, 01:04:17 PM
However, having gems for gemless spells or having more gems than you need even for gemmed spells has an advantage: the AI will occasionally use extra gems to boost the effectiveness of a spell that doesn't require gems - basically my understanding is 1 gem = 1 higher magic level for that spell.

Some spells are more effective with higher spell levels (look for "+" and "++" in spell descriptions), and all spells cost less fatigue at higher levels (fatigue formula is true spell fatigue cost = spell fatigue / (actual magic level / required magic level). So if you have a spell that requires 2 air and uses 100 fatigue, at 3 air it uses 66.7 fatigue (100/ (3/2))

In effect, using a gem per spell level (above stated requirements) basically eliminates spellcasting fatigue, so the AI will tend to use them wisely: a little fatigue (i.e. in trivial fights), no problem, as fatigue increases, gems will be burned.

Note that "stay behind troops" still involves autocasting spells, just with a positioning cue. So gems (and/or blood) can still be burned that way, once the order goes into effect.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

JasonPratt

Quote from: undercovergeek on April 23, 2013, 01:04:55 PM
Quote from: Bison on April 23, 2013, 12:30:44 PM
The level 7 thingy that you all keep talking about means nothing to me.  Nor does it prevent me from mindlessly through wave after wave of my meager armies against them!

in the game options at the start that jason has set up - there is an 'indy strength' meter that defaults to 5 and usually gets left there and consequently some nations go thru them like a knife thru butter but jasons upped their strength to 7 - i presume out of 10 and theyre a bit tougher and more numerous

All true.

I'm somewhat dubious when I see a report of 120 indies, unless (a) I've got a scout in territory; (b) I've got a faction that scries in my dominion; (c) I'm using scout spells; or (d) the territory is large and/or has a large income (which tend to go hand in hand for obvious reasons). In the latter case while that isn't verification, it does in my experience mean the number is plausible.
ICEBREAKER THESIS CHRONOLOGY! -- Victor Suvorov's Stalin Grand Strategy theory, in lots and lots of chronological order...
Dawn of Armageddon -- narrative AAR for Dawn of War: Soulstorm: Ultimate Apocalypse
Survive Harder! -- Two season narrative AAR, an Amazon Blood Bowl career.
PanzOrc Corpz Generals -- Fantasy Wars narrative AAR, half a combined campaign.
Khazâd du-bekâr! -- narrative dwarf AAR for LotR BfME2 RotWK campaign.
RobO Q Campaign Generator -- archived classic CMBB/CMAK tool!

Phobos

Troop numbers shown in a province are 50%-200% of the actual number.  This means there could be half as many, to twice as many as indicated.

Scouts and scrying seem to provide more accurate figures, as well as the potential for details like the name of a commander in the province.

Independant provinces typically do not modify troop numbers, but on occasion, they will.  This could be due to random events (independant attacks like barbarian hordes do not attack independant provinces, they reinforce them) or magical items on one of the commanders in the province. 

Bison

I'm struggling just to expand beyond my initial province.  Have mercy on me neighbors!

elitesix

Quote from: Bison on April 23, 2013, 07:53:58 PM
I'm struggling just to expand beyond my initial province.  Have mercy on me neighbors!

You seem like you'd be good at bluffing :)  ::)  8)