GrogHeads Forum

Digital Gaming => Computer Wargaming => Topic started by: Nefaro on January 10, 2018, 09:32:45 AM

Title: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Nefaro on January 10, 2018, 09:32:45 AM
Looks like the next big historical TW will be ancient China, as many guessed.

 ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HFeBUlUhh8
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Jarhead0331 on January 10, 2018, 09:36:51 AM
I know there will be some who are very excited about this, but I'm not one of them.

...I could be persuaded to take a second look if there will be bad lip dubbing in cutscenes and special Bruce Lee DLC.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: undercovergeek on January 10, 2018, 09:45:55 AM
I know there will be some who are very excited about this, but I'm not one of them.

...I could be persuaded to take a second look if there will be bad lip dubbing in cutscenes and special Bruce Lee DLC.

im in agreement - i know its a loin moistener for some but by way of school, hobby and reading interests ive never caught on with the China love
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Nefaro on January 10, 2018, 09:51:13 AM
I might have preferred something from the late rennaissance to 'age of reason' period, or another medieval version, first. 

However, I still have doubts as to whether they can create a good Total War in which most units have firearms and the battle mechanics & AI support the way they were used historically. 

Flashbacks to those old Empire and Napoleon battles where the units still kept trying to behave like they were in Rome or Medieval, racing into melee at 50mph and every opportunity.  :-\  SOW they were not.


I would pick up a TW Three Kingdoms at some point, though.  Probably not out of the gate, unless they happened to catch me desperate for a new fix at the time. 
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: JudgeDredd on January 10, 2018, 09:53:10 AM
I know there will be some who are very excited about this, but I'm not one of them.

...I could be persuaded to take a second look if there will be bad lip dubbing in cutscenes and special Bruce Lee DLC.
Like this


Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: undercovergeek on January 10, 2018, 09:55:48 AM
I might have preferred something from the late rennaissance to 'age of reason' period, or another medieval version, first. 

However, I still have doubts as to whether they can create a good Total War in which most units have firearms and the battle mechanics & AI support the way they were used historically. 

Flashbacks to those old Empire and Napoleon battles where the units still kept trying to behave like they were in Rome or Medieval, racing into melee at 50mph and every opportunity.  :-\  SOW they were not.


I would pick up a TW Three Kingdoms at some point, though.  Probably not out of the gate, unless they happened to catch me desperate for a new fix at the time.

i think you may be one the guys in disagreement, and if its not you apologies, but CA and Total War did all it ever could for me with Warhammer - without it id be pissed this new one wasnt medieval 3 but because it exists i can manage until medieval 3, if ever
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: JudgeDredd on January 10, 2018, 09:59:14 AM
^Which one? Warhammer 1 or 2? I've only got 1 but I heard 2 is great.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: undercovergeek on January 10, 2018, 10:12:00 AM
i only have 1, but 2 will be the natural next step when the combined maps game is fully fixed if not already
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: bob48 on January 10, 2018, 10:27:41 AM
We used to watch this one as well;

Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: JudgeDredd on January 10, 2018, 10:50:32 AM
I vaguely remember that too - at least the title immediately hit me as something I watched
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Jarhead0331 on January 10, 2018, 10:53:48 AM
This thread has put me in the mood for fried wantons and orange beef.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Geezer on January 10, 2018, 11:00:58 AM
This thread has put me in the mood for suk yung chik.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Sir Slash on January 10, 2018, 11:11:58 AM
This one looks like a Pooh Pooh Platter right now. The trailer looks more like Kung Fu than Total War. 190 CE? What'll they be fighting with stone knives and Mammoth tusks? Still it is FINALLY something China. Hope it's not a 'shamfurl dispray'.  ;D
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Gusington on January 10, 2018, 11:14:42 AM
LOINS MOISTENED.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: undercovergeek on January 10, 2018, 11:28:12 AM
LOINS MOISTENED.

I KNEW IT
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Gusington on January 10, 2018, 11:37:30 AM
I canít help myself, I have always enjoyed Asian history, especially Chinese, and this seems a natural fit for the TW series. Plus it completes the circle started way back with the original Shogun TW. Also - we can only hope - I bet a lot of the systems implemented in the Warhammer games will show up here. Lots of reasons to rejoice, not least of which being that this announcement means that Martok was probably correct and Thrones of Brtittania is due out this spring.

LOINS MOISTENED
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: JasonPratt on January 10, 2018, 11:58:09 AM
My body is prepared!

...not my wallet yet, but time to start saving up!  :D :D :D :D :D

Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Jarhead0331 on January 10, 2018, 12:41:06 PM
I'm excited about all the opportunities to make totally inappropriate and politically incorrect Asian jokes.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Gusington on January 10, 2018, 12:52:53 PM
Arenít we all?
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: FlickJax on January 10, 2018, 01:36:07 PM
We used to watch this one as well;



Water Margin was one of my favourites......
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: bob48 on January 10, 2018, 01:51:00 PM
I must admit, corny and stylised though it was, we always watched it.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Nefaro on January 10, 2018, 02:19:01 PM
I canít help myself, I have always enjoyed Asian history, especially Chinese, and this seems a natural fit for the TW series. Plus it completes the circle started way back with the original Shogun TW. Also - we can only hope - I bet a lot of the systems implemented in the Warhammer games will show up here. Lots of reasons to rejoice, not least of which being that this announcement means that Martok was probably correct and Thrones of Brtittania is due out this spring.

LOINS MOISTENED

Have you even played TW Warhammer yet, Gus?

 ???
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Destraex on January 10, 2018, 02:53:57 PM
The trailer reminded me of fantasy rather than history. Typical of modern Chinese movies.
Could this be Matt Daemon Great Wall style Total War? :P

I must say I am a little excited by this. However I still just don't know if I could play another game of line the troops up with nothing to do but watch the black ants.
I hope the engine comes good for this title. Because it is much more exciting than the "Brittania" one.

P.S. Anybody know when the main historical title will be announced. These little "ERAS" titles are just to line the pockets of CA while they develop the main title. I doubt their will be much innovation for the ERA titles.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Anguille on January 10, 2018, 02:54:41 PM
I am not excited because there's something with the strategic aspect of the TW games that keeps me from enjoying them completely, but it's one of the TW games i will buy on release. The 3 Kingdoms period (and the books!) is an exceptional time period in chinese history with greater than life heroes....it's the chinese Lords of the Rings!
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Destraex on January 10, 2018, 03:07:25 PM
Anguille that "greater than life" Lord of the Rings feel the trailer had is what I was worried about. That instead of finally having a chinese history title that goes beyond all the cheesy movies you can watch. We may just get a cheesy chinese movie game.

I agree that the strategic layer needs updating. I want a larger tactical layer between the battle and strategy layer.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: SirAndrewD on January 10, 2018, 03:12:17 PM
Meh. 

A longer wait for Medieval 3 or Victoria then. 
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Anguille on January 10, 2018, 03:23:27 PM
Anguille that "greater than life" Lord of the Rings feel the trailer had is what I was worried about. That instead of finally having a chinese history title that goes beyond all the cheesy movies you can watch. We may just get a cheesy chinese movie game.

I agree that the strategic layer needs updating. I want a larger tactical layer between the battle and strategy layer.
The thing is that the books "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" are very old and are the most read books on the planet. It is a huge part of chinese history and culture. It's a classic in chinese litterature and has his heroes and enemies: Cao Cao, Liu Bei and others:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_of_the_Three_Kingdoms)

If you want to play an historical game on China, you can get Oriental Empires.  ;)
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: bob48 on January 10, 2018, 03:28:56 PM
Just found it on amazon for the Kindle - £1.49, so that was an instant buy.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Tuna on January 10, 2018, 03:37:55 PM
LOINS MOISTENED.

I KNEW IT

Doesn't take much!
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: undercovergeek on January 10, 2018, 04:09:15 PM
The trailer reminded me of fantasy rather than history. Typical of modern Chinese movies.
Could this be Matt Daemon Great Wall style Total War? :P

I must say I am a little excited by this. However I still just don't know if I could play another game of line the troops up with nothing to do but watch the black ants.
I hope the engine comes good for this title. Because it is much more exciting than the "Brittania" one.

P.S. Anybody know when the main historical title will be announced. These little "ERAS" titles are just to line the pockets of CA while they develop the main title. I doubt their will be much innovation for the ERA titles.

This is THE NEXT BIG HISTORICAL ONE (TM)
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: CJReich46 on January 10, 2018, 04:18:24 PM
Intrigued.

But how will they do the Battle of Chibi? The famous Battle of the Red Cliffs??  Yellow Turban Revolt? I saw Dong Zhuo in the trailer. But what about others like Lu Bu, or Xiahou Dun?
Fall?  Okay might be doable. I am going to get a New PC this year.

*hopefully*  ::)
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: CJReich46 on January 10, 2018, 04:19:58 PM
double post
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: MengJiao on January 10, 2018, 04:31:28 PM
Looks like the next big historical TW will be ancient China, as many guessed.

 ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HFeBUlUhh8

Ancient China!  Sign me up!
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: jomni on January 10, 2018, 04:58:28 PM
Long overdue... but... they did the same mistake as Koei.   While the grunts look like proper Han Dynasty guys, the generals are wearing fancy Tang / Song dynasty armour.  Makes them look like a Koei rip-off. 
Rant over.  Hope it turns out well. Definitely buying.  :D
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Gusington on January 10, 2018, 06:53:51 PM
^I thought you were going to post something totally against this game announcement!
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: jomni on January 10, 2018, 07:12:55 PM
^I thought you were going to post something totally against this game announcement!
Grogs canít have everything. As long as the game is fun.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Gusington on January 10, 2018, 07:24:45 PM
What have you done with the real jomni?
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Destraex on January 10, 2018, 08:02:17 PM
So this is not one of the total war ERA titles but instead a new main title in a new era? Ok. I must watch again after work.

So it is: Just read the steam page.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Sir Slash on January 10, 2018, 09:28:12 PM
[quote author=jomni
Long overdue... but... they did the same mistake as Koei.   While the grunts look like proper Han Dynasty guys, the generals are wearing fancy Tang / Song dynasty armour. 


Hey! They got Tang on my Han! This game's already turning into a sad Song of an effort.  :DD
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Martok on January 10, 2018, 09:29:00 PM
YES!!!

 :notworthy:




Also - we can only hope - I bet a lot of the systems implemented in the Warhammer games will show up here.

I concur.  Given the mythical/legendary nature of this period of history -- and combined with what we saw in the announcement trailer -- I strongly suspect we'll see a number of elements from the Warhammer titles make their way into Three Kingdoms. 


Lots of reasons to rejoice, not least of which being that this announcement means that Martok was probably correct and Thrones of Brtittania is due out this spring.

Indeed.  Especially since Three Kingdoms has already been given a release date of Autumn 2018.  Given that, I have to believe Thrones of Britannia is coming in just 3-4 months. 

Giggity! 


LOINS MOISTENED.

LOINS EVEN MORE MOISTENED

(Okay, probably not, in your case. :P ) 


Still, I am super-stoked for Three Kingdoms, probably even more than I am for Thrones of Britannia -- no mean feat!  I can't claim my knowledge of ancient & medieval Chinese history is deep or extensive, but I've had an interest in (and fascination with) it for some years now. 

I'd prefer a little more historical authenticity than what the trailer showed.  However, given how romanticized the period is, I suspect a certain degree of "fantasy" gamey elements are inevitable.  I'm not thrilled about the prospect, but I can live with it. 




So this is not one of the total war ERA titles but instead a new main title in a new era? Ok. I must watch again after work.

So it is: Just read the steam page.

To clarify, the "Eras" games *are* the main, larger historical titles (such as Three Kingdoms that was just announced).  CA is calling them that to help differentiate them from the smaller "Sagas" games (like Thrones of Britannia). 

The plan -- as it's currently understood -- is that CA will produce games under Sagas series on a more frequent basis, while the larger Eras games will come out probably just once every few years.  The intent of the Sagas series is to make games focused around a smaller area/period from one of the larger Eras titles.  (Shogun 2's standalone expansion Fall of the Samurai is frequently held up as the prototypical example of what they're trying to achieve.) 


Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: SirAndrewD on January 10, 2018, 10:52:28 PM
I'm still going to buy it and play it.  But I'll grouse about it.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Toonces on January 11, 2018, 05:42:29 AM
Anything that's too fantasy or otherwise porked up will undoubtedly be fixed by the robust modding community.  These games are always worth having even if they're not perfect because they serve as such excellent platforms for modders.

Unless, of course, one finds EA's design decisions "arbitrary" in which case one shouldn't buy it out of principle, despite what the mod community does with it.   ???

 8)
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Toonces on January 11, 2018, 05:43:18 AM
I'm sure I'll pick this up.  I'm a sucker for games with gaggles of guys sticking pointy things into each other with violence.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Gusington on January 11, 2018, 05:48:30 AM
I am actually more excited if Three Kingdoms has a healthy dose of fantasy...I like me some Chinese mythology. Iíll need some reading suggestions, though...besides Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Toonces on January 11, 2018, 05:59:02 AM
Is there a free version of Romance of the Three Kingdoms floating around anywhere?  I can't find one on Amazon, but usually a book this old has a free translation somewhere.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: bob48 on January 11, 2018, 06:30:17 AM
I downloaded a copy yesterday for £1.49 :-)
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Toonces on January 11, 2018, 06:40:29 AM
What version and how is the formatting?  Link please.   :nerd:
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Gusington on January 11, 2018, 07:11:16 AM
I need something...more. I wonder if there is just not that much translated to English. Which would be a shame because thereís so much English language history available for Japan, etc.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: bob48 on January 11, 2018, 08:06:05 AM
What version and how is the formatting?  Link please.   :nerd:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Romance-Three-Kingdoms-Luo-Guanzhong/dp/1517191270/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1515683134&sr=1-7&keywords=romance+of+the+three+kingdoms

Its the kindle format that I purchased.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Sir Slash on January 11, 2018, 08:57:57 AM
I'm not really into Romance books.  ::) Or games for that matter either. I like Wargames better. I'm wondering how much CA will bend-over to keep the Asian Market and the PC Police happy by including no negative images of a murderous war for Chinese supremacy. Maybe blame it all on 'Magic' or something. Still looking forward to some more info and videos.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Destraex on January 11, 2018, 03:01:51 PM
For me it will be another nail in the coffin if fantasy starts seeping into CA's historical titles. If the concept artists and "creative" types are allowed to take liberties away from historical advisors and accuracy. I hope they don't think that adding fantasy elements is "innovation". All speculation at the moment. Personally I hope they give the historical crowd more of what they want in terms of military systems and showing how battles were fought, options for strategy and placement. Like supply systems. Rather than hero generals who kill hundreds.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Gusington on January 11, 2018, 04:13:55 PM
Ah the age old argument of historical accuracy versus historical fantasy that has been raging around the TW games since the first Shogun game. I feel at home again.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: jomni on January 11, 2018, 06:37:48 PM
I want to see how they can deviate from Koeiís rendition. So far the characters look like a copy of Koei. Though they are the same people, CA could have changed some things.  Look at the movie Red Cliff, same generals, but with different look and period-appropriate armour.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Gusington on January 11, 2018, 06:40:20 PM
^Love me some Red Cliff.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Destraex on January 12, 2018, 01:03:49 AM
Anybody know a good well researched reference book on the tactics and formations of chinese armies of the period?
I mean something that does discount all the fantasy rhetoric and alleged perfection of the armies of the period and gives a fair dinkum objective study of the day.
For instance I would not read homer to get information on Hoplite tactics.

I have some old WRG book and three osprey books which are very outdated from when the west was first learning about this stuff.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: jomni on January 12, 2018, 01:24:05 AM
Anybody know a good well researched reference book on the tactics and formations of chinese armies of the period?
I mean something that does discount all the fantasy rhetoric and alleged perfection of the armies of the period and gives a fair dinkum objective study of the day.
For instance I would not read homer to get information on Hoplite tactics.

I have some old WRG book and three osprey books which are very outdated from when the west was first learning about this stuff.

Sun Tzuís Art of War?
...Or any English translation of the period-appropriate books in this list if they exist.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_military_texts
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: AchillesLastStand on January 12, 2018, 11:12:40 AM
I have interest in the game but don't care to much for the setting.

Would have preferred a pike and shot era title{1350-1700} or even a Medieval 3.
I understand though with a pike and shot era game CA would not have been able to use the copy/paste faction, they would have had to put much more effort into it.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: JasonPratt on January 12, 2018, 11:55:45 AM
YES!!!

 :notworthy:

Ikr?!  :smitten: :smitten: :smitten:


Now, if they're going to keep doing the "era" projects, too, then after (what amounts to) Viking Invasion 2 (which I am fully for), I'd like to see them turn eventually to the Levantine Microempire period (as in the classic Chariots of War from Matrix). Unit variety might not be great, but ditto for early Viking era Britain, too, so...
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: undercovergeek on January 12, 2018, 12:35:10 PM
YES!!!

 :notworthy:

Ikr?!  :smitten: :smitten: :smitten:


Now, if they're going to keep doing the "era" projects, too, then after (what amounts to) Viking Invasion 2 (which I am fully for), I'd like to see them turn eventually to the Levantine Microempire period (as in the classic Chariots of War from Matrix). Unit variety might not be great, but ditto for early Viking era Britain, too, so...

dont get too carried away with Martok - if it has unlockable factions his moistness will soon dry up
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Gusington on January 12, 2018, 12:53:55 PM
Drying loins is always a tragedy.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: mirth on January 12, 2018, 01:04:26 PM
Drying loins is always a tragedy.

Tis why the good lord gave us Aveeno.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: undercovergeek on January 12, 2018, 01:23:16 PM
Aveeno - for when the developer locks your factions
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Gusington on January 12, 2018, 01:29:42 PM
 :2funny:
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Destraex on January 12, 2018, 05:08:04 PM
Anybody know a good well researched reference book on the tactics and formations of chinese armies of the period?
I mean something that does discount all the fantasy rhetoric and alleged perfection of the armies of the period and gives a fair dinkum objective study of the day.
For instance I would not read homer to get information on Hoplite tactics.

I have some old WRG book and three osprey books which are very outdated from when the west was first learning about this stuff.
Thanks Jomni. I am more looking for well presented modern studies of the periods tactics interpreted from all the evidence.

Sun Tzuís Art of War?
...Or any English translation of the period-appropriate books in this list if they exist.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_military_texts
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: JasonPratt on January 12, 2018, 05:34:34 PM
Drying loins is always a tragedy.

Somehow this jpg becomes relevant again!

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/e72brW.png)
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Gusington on January 12, 2018, 05:37:48 PM
LOOK OUT
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Sir Slash on January 12, 2018, 09:12:34 PM
If that thing had lipstick on, it could've been my first wife.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: FlickJax on January 13, 2018, 12:58:57 AM
If that thing had lipstick on, it could've been my first wife.

LMAO
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: solops on January 13, 2018, 07:21:03 AM
Somehow, this title just does not interest me. I have all of the other total wars. I will probably skip this one until I can get a GOT version for $10. In addition to a lack of interst in the material and overload from all of the other TWs, I have Oriental Empires for a China fix, if I need it. Who know, maybe TW:China will be OK.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Destraex on January 13, 2018, 04:27:44 PM
This title interests me from the standpoint of learning in detail about actual chinese armies of the period and how they worked. Comparing them to western imperial troops from contemporary armies. From the little I have looked at, for the most part. It seems that western armies developed almost in line with most advances the chinese had. Sun Tzu lived around 500bc and Chinese armies of the time would perhaps be comparable to Persian armies of around 500bc? This is the sort of thing I am interested in.

The period in question (three kingdoms) is part of the imperial chinese period and starts around 200AD. Which is kind of funny because it seems to be a civil war between three kingdoms similar to the Roman Triumvirate civil war. The earlier "dynasties" only ruled a tiny part of china in comparison to what china is today.

Technologically the notable exceptions are what I am interested in. The crossbow was one if I recall correctly. I want to continue to explore what a chinese army was, cutting through the myth. Exploring how it operated.
Chinese armies are certainly not as reliable and well disciplined as I expected. But it is early days for my pet interest in ancient chinese warfare.

I guess you guys can start to understand why I am often disappointed by total war titles. I seem to get excited and do a lot of research on what is known of the armies of the period and then find that total war increasingly just does not care about making armies work like they were capable of at the time. Total War does not want to advance and innovate to teach. It instead just wants to wow and engender a hollywood feel with a few light homages to history.

P.S. I am finding it hard to track down good books on ancient chinese army tactics and organisation, battle testing etc.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: jomni on January 13, 2018, 05:00:38 PM
This title interests me from the standpoint of learning in detail about actual chinese armies of the period and how they worked. Comparing them to western imperial troops from contemporary armies. From the little I have looked at, for the most part. It seems that western armies developed almost in line with most advances the chinese had. Sun Tzu lived around 500bc and Chinese armies of the time would perhaps be comparable to Persian armies of around 500bc? This is the sort of thing I am interested in.

The period in question (three kingdoms) is part of the imperial chinese period and starts around 200AD. Which is kind of funny because it seems to be a civil war between three kingdoms similar to the Roman Triumvirate civil war. The earlier "dynasties" only ruled a tiny part of china in comparison to what china is today.

Technologically the notable exceptions are what I am interested in. The crossbow was one if I recall correctly. I want to continue to explore what a chinese army was, cutting through the myth. Exploring how it operated.
Chinese armies are certainly not as reliable and well disciplined as I expected. But it is early days for my pet interest in ancient chinese warfare.

I guess you guys can start to understand why I am often disappointed by total war titles. I seem to get excited and do a lot of research on what is known of the armies of the period and then find that total war increasingly just does not care about making armies work like they were capable of at the time. Total War does not want to advance and innovate to teach. It instead just wants to wow and engender a hollywood feel with a few light homages to history.

P.S. I am finding it hard to track down good books on ancient Chinese army tactics and organisation, battle testing etc.

You won't learn it from Total War.  I think you should look at Field of Glory to see how the armies actually evolve through the ages in a historical fashion, despite it being rather simplistic.
Pike and Shot / Sengoku Jidai also teach a lot about the evolution of organisation and tactics.

Shameless plug: You are right by saying the Chinese are like Persians.  In my Silk Road mod, they are primarily organised into mixed units of crossbows and halberdiers and function like the Persian Sparabara.  This is good enough to battle against themselves and their nomadic and tribal neighbours (but apparently not against Western heavy infantry).

200 BC (not AD) is the start of the Imperial Period.  This is when the Qin dynasty abolished the Zhou dynasty feudal system as a lesson from the Warring States Period.  They established the classical Chinese bureaucracy run by a scholarly elite which exerted direct control and governorship of all the different provinces (Commanderies).
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Destraex on January 13, 2018, 06:43:11 PM
Field of Glory is a definite no for me unfortunately. I don't believe I would get the movement that should happen from formations in a natural way.

I meant that the three kingdoms wars was around 200ad. Sorry if I was unclear.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: bob48 on January 14, 2018, 04:06:57 PM
I've started on the book, and so far, its not the most gripping read.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Destraex on January 15, 2018, 02:01:43 AM
 I have just started looking into what may be. By taking a quick look at the period immediately before the period that Total War will be depicting.

China Total War (aka three kingdoms)
Just reading about the Han period (25-189bc) (think it was just before the three kingdoms period). They used crossbows extensively of varying sizes. Apparently they were impressive for stopping cavalry charges. Some were so big they could be mounted and were generally used in sieges. But the kicker was that men who could load the larger ones were prized for their strength. These men were considered specialists. I am imagining big ass crossbowmen of hero size with massive crossbows. Smaller hand crossbows were around as well.

However horse barding does not seem to be a thing until the end of the period. I think they must mean until the three kingdoms period. Cavalry of the Han period as far as they can tell did not have shields or barding. Was halberds, small crossbows, bows, swords and spears.

What is interesting is that Han armies were made of conscripts who often trained for an entire year before being put on easy duties like city guard and then finally graduating to the active army. I cannot remember how long Roman training was during the republican period. But I do not think it was this long and if I recall correctly it was more of an annual thing.
Units had names like "smash fo" which were related to historic campaign performance, place they were stationed etc. Just like the later western imperial period roman legions.

The Han armies were often of varying quality. Sometimes having poor leadership and moral. Other times very professional. Not giving the full year of training was blamed numerous times in a row for the Han losing entire armies.

Commanders that failed could expect execution if they returned as could their subordinates.

They used nomadic horse archers and chinese horse archers. Nomadic Horse Archers were highly valued for the northern fighting where the terrain was open.

One description describes three Hsiung-nu eagle hunters by circling and using their bows from a distance (sounds like the cantabrian circle) defeated 30 Han Cavalry.

For those interested in the original terracotta warrior colours. Which today are not seen on the ones originally unearthed. Newly excavated ones though are better preserved with new methods.
https://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/shaanxi/xian/terra_cotta_army/colors.htm

The terracotta army dates from the first imperial dynasty which was approx 400 years before the three kingdoms period that will be in total war. However I think further research will show not too much would have changed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terracotta_Army

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a7/fc/3e/a7fc3ef2926c580fdf3eb5514fe2205c.jpg)
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: Gusington on January 15, 2018, 03:17:20 PM
^Great info, thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Total War: Three Kingdoms
Post by: W8taminute on January 25, 2018, 06:31:05 PM
This is a definite must have for me. 

Random fact:  The Suikoden series (from Square Enix I believe) is loosely based off the novel 'The Water Margin'.