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Digital Gaming => Computer Gaming => Topic started by: Phantom on October 10, 2017, 03:09:07 PM

Title: Vietnam game?
Post by: Phantom on October 10, 2017, 03:09:07 PM
Watching & enjoying Ken Burn's Vietnam documentary on BBC, & had a quick browse to see what selection of strategic or operational PC games there was covering the conflict & came up blank!!
This can't be true surely? - I know there's a shedload of FPS's/Air Sims out there and of course Matrix's Nam 65, but is there really a Vietnam PC game desert out there?

......just checked TOAW, some scenarios & campaigns on there, but of course I guess this lacks the political/COIN dimension to a large degree

Regards
Keith
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: JasonPratt on October 10, 2017, 03:30:35 PM
It is indeed pretty terrible.

The bot rules for Fire in the Lake will give you some challenge tho, which can be found on Tabletop simulator (and Vassal).
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: berto on October 10, 2017, 03:52:21 PM
Our plan is to release the next installment Campaign Series: Vietnam late Q2 or early Q3 of 2018.
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: JudgeDredd on October 10, 2017, 04:02:41 PM
Quote from: Phantom on October 10, 2017, 03:09:07 PM
Watching & enjoying Ken Burn's Vietnam documentary on BBC, & had a quick browse to see what selection of strategic or operational PC games there was covering the conflict & came up blank!!
This can't be true surely? - I know there's a shedload of FPS's/Air Sims out there and of course Matrix's Nam 65, but is there really a Vietnam PC game desert out there?

......just checked TOAW, some scenarios & campaigns on there, but of course I guess this lacks the political/COIN dimension to a large degree

Regards
Keith
I can't help you with your PC game search, but thank you very much for the heads up on Ken Burns Vietnam series...I almost missed that. 6 episodes in but managed to get the lot on Series link so haven't missed one  O0

I'll start watching them next week.
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: Destraex on October 10, 2017, 04:38:18 PM
Hard to simulate what is essentially hiding and counter insurgency. The player really has little to do with winning in a wargame here. Throw as much firepower down and win as many tactical victories as you want. This sort of war is very hard to quantify in a game. You either go super grand strategy and change the decisions of the big wigs or you go granular with an FPS.
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: Father Ted on October 10, 2017, 04:44:18 PM
Coincidentally I just started watching this tonight.  I guess the clue about the lack of games is in the prologue where the US vet suggests that the war was just never talked about until relatively recently.  Also the conflict was hugely asymmetrical in terms of technology and logistics, and I think it has taken a while for game-designers to come up with a way to make that playable.
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: Cyrano on October 10, 2017, 04:45:50 PM
Purpose built, I honestly think this is the last one:

https://archive.org/details/msdos_Conflict_in_Vietnam_1986

I know it's not the level you seek, but the JTS SB games, starting with DBP, are very good.

http://www.johntillersoftware.com/SquadBattles/DienBienPhu.html

DBP is particularly important because it really does hi-light the sh*t show the French dragged their soldiers into.

Obsessed with the documentary myself.

Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: Apocalypse 31 on October 10, 2017, 05:00:48 PM
I would imagine its hard to seek an operational-level game when the majority of fighting within Vietnam War was really conducted at the lower tactical level. For example, The Village by Bing West highlights some of the most critical counter-insurgency operations were conducted at the squad level.

With that being said, I still really enjoy Vietnam '65 (http://store.steampowered.com/app/336080/Vietnam_65/). I fire it up constantly, and I enjoy it because real world COIN application works in the game: positioning of fire bases near villages and the use of Special Forces recon in conjunction with regular forces firepower.
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: Nefaro on October 10, 2017, 07:10:58 PM
Squad Battles: Vietnam

http://www.hpssims.com/pages/products/SB/SBVietnam/SBVietnam.html


Squad Battles: Tour of Duty

http://www.hpssims.com/pages/products/SB/TOD/TOD.html



Phantom Leader PC  (solitaire boardgame port)

http://www.mcssl.com/store/danverssengames/computer-games/solitaire/phantom-leader---windows
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: Gusington on October 10, 2017, 07:45:09 PM
I played Conflict in Vietnam from MicroProse when it came out for the C64 when...1985?
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: BanzaiCat on October 10, 2017, 08:03:27 PM
1986. In '85, Crusade in Europe came out. I loved that game so much I bought the others in the series eventually (Decision in the Desert, Conflict in Vietnam, and even NATO Commander).
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: GJK on October 10, 2017, 08:41:18 PM
I know you've dismissed TOAW but have a look again at Mad Russian's (Steve Overton') "Boonie Rats" campaign game covering the war in Vietnam- it is very deep and has a lot of the political stuff scripted in.
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: Moreb on October 10, 2017, 09:27:17 PM
Too bad a computer version of Fire in the Lake couldn't be made. I don't own it but hope to some day. It would sure ring all the right bells.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/144189/fire-lake

It seems like boardgame conversions never seem to pan out. Damn shame really.
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: jomni on October 10, 2017, 09:43:52 PM
I attempted to do an AAR in Advanced Tactics...
It does give us a nice whack a mole feel.  Maybe I should play it again.

http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=1792.0
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: GJK on October 11, 2017, 07:08:14 AM
Quote from: Moreb on October 10, 2017, 09:27:17 PM
Too bad a computer version of Fire in the Lake couldn't be made. I don't own it but hope to some day. It would sure ring all the right bells.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/144189/fire-lake (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/144189/fire-lake)

It seems like boardgame conversions never seem to pan out. Damn shame really.


The VASSAL module for it is nicely done.
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: bboyer66 on October 11, 2017, 07:20:15 AM
The best strategic Vietnam game without a doubt on PC, is a scenario from TAOW called I believe Vietnam 1965-1975 (could be wrong about the name, it's been a while). It is based on the classic Victory Games Vietnam board game. It is so well done that I am quite disappointed that no one ever made it into its own individual game. It covers Vietnamization, province control, air power, free fire zones, pretty much everything you can think of when it comes to the Vietnam War. The best part is that as the S Vietnam/ American player, you get to choose what units to send to Vietnam, and how many. Think the VC/NVA are getting too powerful in a region, send in the 1st Marines or the 101st Air Assault. Of course with more troops, comes more victory point penalties. US troop casualties also cause the US to lose support for the war. You also have to decide when is the best time to start Vietnamization and start withdrawing US troops. Seriously this thing covers everything, and is still quite playable. I''m not sure if the scenario is included with the current TOAW or whether you have to find it. You will know you have the right one when you see all the possible deployable American troops in the upper left hand corner of the map.
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: jomni on October 11, 2017, 07:57:44 AM
Quote from: bboyer66 on October 11, 2017, 07:20:15 AM
The best strategic Vietnam game without a doubt on PC, is a scenario from TAOW called I believe Vietnam 1965-1975 (could be wrong about the name, it's been a while). It is based on the classic Victory Games Vietnam board game. It is so well done that I am quite disappointed that no one ever made it into its own individual game. It covers Vietnamization, province control, air power, free fire zones, pretty much everything you can think of when it comes to the Vietnam War. The best part is that as the S Vietnam/ American player, you get to choose what units to send to Vietnam, and how many. Think the VC/NVA are getting too powerful in a region, send in the 1st Marines or the 101st Air Assault. Of course with more troops, comes more victory point penalties. US troop casualties also cause the US to lose support for the war. You also have to decide when is the best time to start Vietnamization and start withdrawing US troops. Seriously this thing covers everything, and is still quite playable. I''m not sure if the scenario is included with the current TOAW or whether you have to find it. You will know you have the right one when you see all the possible deployable American troops in the upper left hand corner of the map.

Same concept as the Advanced Tactics scenario I played.  Mechanics played out well using AT's card system.
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: mirth on October 11, 2017, 08:06:07 AM
Quote from: GJK on October 10, 2017, 08:41:18 PM
I know you've dismissed TOAW but have a look again at Mad Russian's (Steve Overton') "Boonie Rats" campaign game covering the war in Vietnam- it is very deep and has a lot of the political stuff scripted in.

This. It's very impressive work.
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: Micha on October 11, 2017, 11:52:53 AM
You can check out the vietnamgame of Peoplesgeneral. Here for download.
www.peoplesgeneral.de
It covers almost 70 Battles
By the way, we are on the way to replace al old maps by modern ones.
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: Phantom on October 11, 2017, 01:46:21 PM
Thanks for all the responses. I'll definitely be having a trawl of the TOAW scenarios/campaigns to find the ones mentioned above. There does seem to be more progress on the board game side of things & Fire in the Lake & the earlier Hearts & Minds both look interesting. Will also give Matrix's Nam 65 a shot given the above recommendations (which will no doubt lead me down the Afghanistan path... :P.)
I don't necessarily agree with the posters who say its a difficult war to game, hence few games. Yes it's asymmetrical & has significant fog of war & non-military complexities, but surely this is where PC games can excel?

The Ken Burns series is really, really good, I'm just coming up to Tet, and it is without doubt one of the most moving & informative things I've watched in a while. I was slightly concerned it wouldn't match the Civil War series, but it does - which I guess shows Burns skill, as they are totally different wars and, very subtly, he treats them in a different way & its often the simple things - the first hand accounts, or the still photos, that stick in the memory.

Regards
Keith
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: JasonPratt on October 11, 2017, 03:45:23 PM
Matrix's Vietnam 65 is very much a board-game inspired design, with intrinsic capabilities that only a computer would be able to pull off.

Mad Russian's mod (somewhat based on the 65-75 board game, but also highly adapted): http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/the-operational-art-of-war-scenario-490-Boonie-Rats


Four other mods based more closely on the boardgame:

http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/the-operational-art-of-war-scenario-154-America's-War-in-Vietnam

http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/the-operational-art-of-war-scenario-572-Vietnam-1965-75

http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/the-operational-art-of-war-scenario-666-Vietnam-1965

http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/scenarii/the-operational-art-of-war-scenario-651-Campaign-for-South-Vietnam


Those are listed in order of their original creation; the last one might be the most recently updated one.

There could be others at the scenario database; I found those searching for "Vietnam" in the mod name.
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: Nefaro on October 11, 2017, 07:18:18 PM
Quote from: GJK on October 11, 2017, 07:08:14 AM
Quote from: Moreb on October 10, 2017, 09:27:17 PM
Too bad a computer version of Fire in the Lake couldn't be made. I don't own it but hope to some day. It would sure ring all the right bells.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/144189/fire-lake (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/144189/fire-lake)

It seems like boardgame conversions never seem to pan out. Damn shame really.


The VASSAL module for it is nicely done.



Also in Tabletop Simulator last I checked.
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: Moreb on October 12, 2017, 07:46:30 PM
Quote from: GJK on October 11, 2017, 07:08:14 AM
Quote from: Moreb on October 10, 2017, 09:27:17 PM
Too bad a computer version of Fire in the Lake couldn't be made. I don't own it but hope to some day. It would sure ring all the right bells.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/144189/fire-lake (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/144189/fire-lake)

It seems like boardgame conversions never seem to pan out. Damn shame really.


The VASSAL module for it is nicely done.

You're right about that. I installed VASSAL just to check it out. Won't do me much good until I get the game though.
Title: Re: Vietnam game?
Post by: Cyrano on October 13, 2017, 10:47:21 PM
A general note of caution that FITL and 65-75 have pert near nothing to do with one another save the conflict they explore.

I have and love both, but they are radically different choices.