Alternate WWI Based on US Intervention?

Started by bayonetbrant, July 26, 2013, 12:44:38 PM

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bayonetbrant

So let's all remember that there actually was some pretty good discussion back at WGer about 6-7 years ago.  I've been on a mini-quest to rescue some of my old threads from there so that we can preserve some good ideas and discussion sparks before the whole place inevitably crumbles and they're lost forever in another software "upgrade"


I had posited a rambling off-the-cuff alternate course of WWI in one post, and it sparked some pretty good discussion.  I wanted to drag it back up and see what y'all thought?  The premise is that the US either stays out of the war, or sides with the Germans.  Remember, this is WWI / pre-Nazi / no-Hitler / wildly-nationalistic-European Germany, not the evil incarnate of WWDeux.

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Forgetting the Western front for a second: What happens on the Eastern Front if the Germans don't have as many forces committed to the Western front?

What happens to the Balkans if the Austro-Hungarian Empire isn't hacked up after the war?

Assuming a German victory in the west, coupled with the same Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, and Austria likely takes significant chunks of Italian/Yugoslavian coast, from Venice to Dubrovnik, at least.

The Ottoman Empire still falls apart. Iraq/Palestine are under German influence rather than British, and the Suez Canal may change hands. Similarly, the German colonies in Africa aren't parceled out among other nations.

More importantly, while the Brits and French likely plot their revenge on Germany - and the US - the Nazi party never rises in Germany.

A WWII is still likely, given the unresolved state of armistices at the time, and imminent rise of Japanese militarism. But the Holocaust doesn't happen, Israel is perhaps founded, but treated much differently because the Jews aren't scarred by the memories of the Holocaust.

German domination of the Middle East from the Suez to Hormuz results in an efficient bureaucratic system layered on top of Islam that may have suppressed more radical sects like Wahhabism. Our German allies would've maintained the flow of oil from the Arabian peninsula, without the US having to guarantee the continuation of the Saudi monarchy.

What happens to the Austrian Empire is still up in the air - given the mishmash of ethnicities within the empire, it might have looked like 1990s Yugoslavia, only (a) bigger, and (b) sooner. But given the connections with Germany (such as language) it's likely that some of it would've been absorbed into a greater German co-operation sphere.

Poland and Czechoslovakia never know independence, but the Baltic states don't fall under Communist domination because of the proximity of Germany's borders.

All in all, it's a pretty different world, eh?
The key to surviving this site is to not say something which ends up as someone's tag line - Steelgrave

"their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights'...and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure." Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers

besilarius

Someone, I think in another thread, made a decent point.
If the English and French allied with the CSA in the American Civil War, no matter the outcome, the USA would not enter the war.
Without the american army and industrial support, the Kaiser would have won.
No Nazis, but a powerful German Empire dominating Europe from the central position.
"Most gods throw dice, but Fate plays chess, and you don't find out until too late that he's been playing with two queens all along".  Terry Pratchett.

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GDS_Starfury

Quote from: besilarius on July 26, 2013, 06:15:48 PM
No Nazis, but a powerful German Empire dominating Europe from the central position.

so 100 years later and they still go what they wanted.
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besilarius

As an offshoot of a German win in WWI, The French would have seethed for revenge.
I really can't see them trying anothe war against an even greater Reich.
Germany would not allow them to take Spain, or Italy, so the only outlet for French energy would be Africa or the South Pacific.
Perhaps a hypothetical naval campaign for control of the islands of the South Pacific involving both the Germans and the English?  Or a major land conflict in central Africa?  The French could have cut the north south railways running from Capetown to Cairo.
"Most gods throw dice, but Fate plays chess, and you don't find out until too late that he's been playing with two queens all along".  Terry Pratchett.

During filming of Airplane, Leslie Nielsen used a whoopee cushion to keep the cast off-balance. Hays said that Nielsen "played that thing like a maestro"

Tallulah Bankhead: "I'll come and make love to you at five o'clock. If I'm late, start without me."

"When all other trusts fail, turn to Flashman." — Abraham Lincoln.

"I have enjoyed very warm relations with my two husbands."
"With your eyes closed?"
"That helped."  Lauren Bacall

Master Chiefs are sneaky, dastardly, and snarky miscreants who thrive on the tears of Ensigns and belly dancers.   Admiral Gerry Bogan.

bayonetbrant

The key to surviving this site is to not say something which ends up as someone's tag line - Steelgrave

"their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights'...and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure." Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers

mirth

"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

Martok

I've wondered about that scenario before.  I'd read how the Ottomans considered going the other way. 
"Like we need an excuse to drink to anything..." - Banzai_Cat
"I like to think of it not as an excuse but more like Pavlovian Response." - Sir Slash

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mirth

"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

Martok

You know, I really did try to think of a better way to phrase that, but ended up deciding "screw it"... ::) 
"Like we need an excuse to drink to anything..." - Banzai_Cat
"I like to think of it not as an excuse but more like Pavlovian Response." - Sir Slash

"At our ages, they all look like jailbait." - mirth

"If we had lines here that would have crossed all of them. For the 1,077,986th time." - Gusington

"Government is so expensive that it should at least be entertaining." - airboy

"As long as there's bacon, everything will be all right." - Toonces

OJsDad

What would the US have gotten out of joining Imperial Germany?
Would the Bolsheviks have come to power?
'Here at NASA we all pee the same color.'  Al Harrison from the movie Hidden Figures.

bayonetbrant

Quote from: OJsDad on August 07, 2017, 04:22:38 PMWhat would the US have gotten out of joining Imperial Germany?
What did we necessarily get out of joining Imperial England?  I'm not trying to be flippant here, but there really wasn't a significant threat to the US from either side until we started getting involved with commercial shipments.

Quote from: OJsDad on August 07, 2017, 04:22:38 PMWould the Bolsheviks have come to power?
You mean in Germany?  Or in Russia?  I think Russia was probably a fait accompli given the other internal trends there.  Germany is a trickier situation.
The key to surviving this site is to not say something which ends up as someone's tag line - Steelgrave

"their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights'...and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure." Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers

JasonPratt

If we entered the war on Germany's side, how likely is it that we could have landed enough troops in England's pond to make a difference?

HOI:Darkest Hour (especially what's now called the Grand Campaign mod) would allow some interesting looks at a US player declaring for the Central Powers. For one thing, I don't know whether the Ottomans would have crumbled; or if they did, it would have been from internal squabbling and revolutions (especially Arabic) against the Turkish regime.
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