Nork Nukes Nearing Nuisance?

Started by bayonetbrant, March 14, 2017, 11:39:26 AM

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JudgeDredd

#15
So there's debate over whether it's proven that they have an ICBM isn't there?

But even if they do (or are almost there), how long has it taken? Isn't that the easy part? Isn't the difficult part creating a nuclear warhead small enough to go atop said ICBM and then get it to re-enter?

I've no doubt they're moving towards it - but it seems to me it'll be a while yet.

I think, personally, it's a bit rich of countries to tell other countries not to build nuclear weapons when we're sitting on a shite load ourselves. "We've got nukes, ICBMs and the ability to strike anyone we want...but none of you are allowed them...but don't worry - you won't need them - we're the good guys"...mmm

Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly want NK having nukes...but there's a kind of double standard going on.

Currently the UK is looking at renewing their nuclear arsenal even though they are signed up to the NNPT. North Korea isn't a signatory of the NNTP - they're in a morally better position than the UK who are signatories and still looking to renew.

Anyway - who gives a shit. Bring it.  >:D

This is from Wiki
Quotethe NPT non-nuclear-weapon states agree never to acquire nuclear weapons and the NPT nuclear-weapon states in exchange agree to share the benefits of peaceful nuclear technology and to pursue nuclear disarmament aimed at the ultimate elimination of their nuclear arsenals

When was the last time the UK was in discussion about reducing/removing it's nuclear arsenal with another nation? Genuine question.
Alba gu' brath

bayonetbrant

Quote from: JudgeDredd on August 03, 2017, 09:44:01 AM
When was the last time the UK was in discussion about reducing/removing it's nuclear arsenal with another nation? Genuine question.

were y'all a party to SALT, SALT II, START, or INF?

I know the French were always very staunch about their nuclear doctrine of "sufficiency" in which they declared that their nukes were off-the-table in any negotiations, but I don't know enough about where the Brits stand on it.
The key to surviving this site is to not say something which ends up as someone's tag line - Steelgrave

"their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights'...and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure." Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers

JudgeDredd

I honestly don't know. I'm trying to look stuff up now.
Alba gu' brath

Gusington

Personally I prefer the UK to have nukes and NK to have none, double standard or not.


слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

JudgeDredd

Quote from: bayonetbrant on August 03, 2017, 09:49:17 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on August 03, 2017, 09:44:01 AM
When was the last time the UK was in discussion about reducing/removing it's nuclear arsenal with another nation? Genuine question.

were y'all a party to SALT, SALT II, START, or INF?

I know the French were always very staunch about their nuclear doctrine of "sufficiency" in which they declared that their nukes were off-the-table in any negotiations, but I don't know enough about where the Brits stand on it.
SALT - 1972
SALT II - 1972-1979
START - 1991-1993
INF - 1988??

My question about when the UK was last in discussions about becoming a non-nuclear nation was pointing out that there hasn't been much in the way of movement towards that in the last decade or two (that I'm aware of). It would be nice for the nuclear signatories of the NPT to live up to what was in that treaty and start (restart) disarming.

I understand their twitchiness to do so given NK are looking at kick starting their own program - but that could always be the case anyway (with any country - even a signatory).

I just want to live in a world that Nuke free and hug trees. Is that too much to ask?
Alba gu' brath

JudgeDredd

Quote from: Gusington on August 03, 2017, 10:00:52 AM
Personally I prefer the UK to have nukes and NK to have none, double standard or not.
That makes me feel warm  :smitten:
Alba gu' brath

mirth

Quote from: JudgeDredd on August 03, 2017, 10:08:25 AM
I just want to live in a world that Nuke free and hug trees. Is that too much to ask?


"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

Sir Slash

The problem with hugging trees is they never reciprocate. They're just sooo into themselves.
"Take a look at that". Sgt. Wilkerson-- CMBN. His last words after spotting a German tank on the other side of a hedgerow.

mirth

"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

bayonetbrant

INF was signed in '87, IIRC. 
At the time we were in Schwabisch-Gmund, which was the Pershing 2 HQ in Germany (56th FA Command) and the unit most directly affected by it.  It was the P-2's accuracy (w/in 1m at full range) that brought the Russians to the table; they were scared to death of it.
The key to surviving this site is to not say something which ends up as someone's tag line - Steelgrave

"their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights'...and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure." Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers

OJsDad

Quote from: JudgeDredd on August 03, 2017, 10:08:25 AM
I just want to live in a world that Nuke free and hug trees. Is that too much to ask?

On the queens worst day, she would never us a nuke.  On Kim's best any day he could launch the just for the fun of it. 
'Here at NASA we all pee the same color.'  Al Harrison from the movie Hidden Figures.

ComradeP

JudgeDredd: the "nukes equals safety" argument is important for countries that face a (theoretical) enemy neighbouring them (Israel and its neighbours for example) or a superpower (that goes for Iran and North Korea).

In recent years, the crisis in the eastern part of Ukraine has shown that nuclear disarmament in exchange for guarantees for peaceful conflict resolution doesn't work if Russia or the US doesn't want it to. Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal, was given guarantees and presto, it was invaded by Russia after which nobody cared about the guarantees given earlier.

If you're an unstable leader, or have a population that feels it might benefit from more modern political leadership, the Ukrainian situation provides an excellent incentive to continue developing nuclear weapons. 

Though the US and Russia have dramatically reduced the number of nuclear weapons in their arsenal, modern weapons are significantly more potent than the 1960's-1970's weapons that formed the backbone of the arsenal. However, early nuclear technology is still in use. Retaliation strategies for the US still seems to include launching vintage Minuteman missiles with shaky early computer technology backing them, so further disarmament or at the least the complete removal of pre-end of the Cold War missiles would help. I'm sure Russia also has some nuclear weapons supported by questionable technology around.

An accidental launch and the complete disaster that would follow it with the current leadership of the US and Russia is a scary but certainly possible eventuality.
The fact that these people drew inspiration...and then became chicken farmers - Cyrano, Dragon' Up The Past #45

bayonetbrant

Quote from: ComradeP on August 03, 2017, 11:02:44 AMUkraine gave up its nuclear arsenal, was given guarantees and presto, it was invaded by Russia after which nobody cared about the guarantees given earlier.

The Russians themselves view any agreements under Yeltsin to be some other country that is not "Russia" as it's currently constituted.  Moreover, they'll also argue that part of those agreements were included no eastward expansion of NATO, and yet now we have the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, etc - all former WP client states - in NATO, edging ever-closer to the Russian border.

Given that paranoia is not just a national trait, but a point of pride, for the Russians, it's not hard to see their actions as 'rational' from their point of view.
The key to surviving this site is to not say something which ends up as someone's tag line - Steelgrave

"their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights'...and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure." Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers

JasonPratt

IN RUSSIA, PARANOIA IS OUT TO GET YOU!  :arr:
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Gusington

Interesting what BB said about Yeltsin era Russia being another country, different from what Russia is now.


слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd