WWII ETO

GJK · April 05, 2013, 09:01:54 AM

I'll kickstart some Friday/weekend wargaming conversation:

Any players of AH's classic "Third Reich" out there? I first saw/played this game when I was about 14 or 15. I doubt that we played it correctly in our group but I always enjoyed the gatherings. Lately, I've had an urge to do some WWII ETO. Third Reich crossed my mind but I hadn't looked at the rules in years and from what I remembered back then, it was very complex. I looked at other options, WiF, SPI's ETO (which I picked up a copy), Totaler Krieg II. There's others, including the new "The War: Europe 1939-1945" but they looked really large and complex. Well, I fired up my PC copy of "Third Reich PC" while also having the rules next to me. I followed along with the sequence of play (a bit difficult on the computer game as it goes over things quickly, but it does work). I feel that I now have a pretty good grasp on the majority of the rules. I have a physical copy of the game that I plan on solo'ing this weekend. What I like about Third Reich - the moves. Some people hate chess and games that play like it. I love it. I love that there are devised "opening moves" and set ups for attacking Poland, France, etc. I bore easily with east front/west front games that have 100's of units where you simply keep adjusting your lines and using soak-off attacks. Rinse and repeat. Boring!

Has anybody played (with success) the Advanced Third Reich version? If so, what are your thoughts on it as compared to Classic Third Reich?

There's of course VASSAL modules for the various flavors of Third Reich and from what I've read on the Geek, it's a great game to pbem. Perhaps we could get a 3 or 4 player pbem game going with some Groghead's?

I know that you WiF players are out there. I have the "Final Edition" of that game but that rulebook really does scare me. ASL I can wrap my head around, WiF confounds me. Tell me that it's easier than it looks! And tell me that I really do get used to those "Steel" mountains that you see on the map.

Totaler Krieg (II more so than I, which I also have) has a very distinct following. Any TKII players out there? I understand that it's strong point is drift away from historical norms; it goes outside of the box a good bit depending on drawn random events.

I have AP's "John Prados' Third Reich" as well. I've redrawn that map and started the rules. The "bucket o' dice" combat system doesn't bother me, but I recall reading of a very big flaw with the system that I can't recall at the moment. Something that was a game-stopper for me and I haven't gone back to the rulebook for it. Maybe I'm mistaken here?

Others? "The War"? It's new and has some good ratings on the Geek. I think it's more of a 4+ players game however. Is it worth the $100 and would it be enjoyable with just 2 people? How complex is it?

Let's talk some WWII ETO - what's your thoughts? I'm open to some PC Game suggestions here as well. Sell me on Strategic Command Global; even if it uses squares. Grigsby monsters worth the effort? I rather enjoy Third Reich PC, though it was dogged in the reviews (even back in '98 or so). Clash of Steel is still fun, if not overly-simplistic. Any others that you'd recommend?

GJK · April 05, 2013, 09:14:12 AM

I'll throw this in there as well:

Does gaming WWII ETO bore you or are you tired of it? "Invade Poland, invade Denmark, invade the Low Countries. Do I mess with Sweeden or go into France? Go for England or straight into Russia next? Do I even worry about N. Africa? I never take Spain, won't even go there. Does it all really matter anyways because as soon as the U.S. enters, it's all downhill!". Is that you when it comes to gaming WWII ETO? If so, what would it take to get you back into some WWII ETO gaming?

Barthheart · April 05, 2013, 09:18:36 AM

I think AH's Third Reich was my 3rd real wargame, after Luftwaffe and then Squad Leader.
I play my board copy so much the counters are faded at the edges.... then came computer games and university and no time or space to play the board game version.
I also had the PC version which I played for a bit but it didn't grab me the way the board game did.
Never tried the "Advanced" version or the A World at War version craziness.

I have the 4th/5th edition of WiF. I've tried several times to learn to play solo and failed.... so it's not just you.

Never tried AP's 3rd Reich.

I'd like to try Decision Games War in Europe PC game. Tried the demo and like it alot but they don't have a download verion of the full game. Also it is only MP, no AI.
http://shop.decisiongames.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=2100

If you get a MP game of AH's 3rd Reich together,any version, I'd be up for that. OR maybe I can be convinced to buy the "mailed to me" copy of War in Europe to play MP.

PS you post about playing 3rd Reich earlier this week got me wanting to play a good strat level game again..... 8)

GJK · April 05, 2013, 09:28:52 AM

I worked with Karl (forget his last name) on DG's War in Europe PC game. I did some map mods for it and was on the playtesting team. I'll connect with you later after I get home about getting a copy to you (for extending demo'ing purposes of course!). I like it - wish that it had an AI - but I did enjoy pbem'ing it the few times that I did despite it having too many units for my tastes and also having that "keep those lines moving" attack, move, attack, rinse-repeat sequence.

Do you know what I love best about this PC conversion though? The CRT and how it shows the odds column and the roller that goes up/down the column like a casino slot machine before settling on the final result. I wish more PC wargames had that!

Barthheart · April 05, 2013, 09:42:10 AM

Cool.. thanks! 8)

I just remembered that never actually played 3rd Reich against another person... ever! Hmmm... I also remember playing with out the 2x defence on clear hexes rule. Made the game non-fluid.
But I haven't played in like 25 years so who knows..... :D

The more I think about this, i realy need to dig that game out and re-learn the rules... maybe the right way this time... :P

GJK · April 05, 2013, 09:47:09 AM

It's a classic for a reason - really a brilliant game IMHO. A 3:1 attack is iffy since every unit is worth its weight in gold. Go for the 3:1 with a good chance that you'll take some losses? Do you take those losses in land units or the air units that provided CAS? Getting cut off from supply is BRUTAL! How about getting Axis down to N. Africa with all those chances for interception? (SR them is the answer there). Such a cool game!

W8taminute · April 05, 2013, 01:21:09 PM

I haven't played AH Advanced Third Reich for over 25 years now but I still have the game. What I really liked about it vs. vanilla Third Reich is the diplomacy options. Combat is more or less the same but the map is slightly larger and more detailed. IIRC there were some neat modifications made to the strategic warfare aspects of the game as well. I'll have to dig my copy out of my parents basement the next time I visit them.

I also own SPI's WWII ETO. I prefer playing this game over Advanced Third Reich however because it's a tad more complex but not overwhelmingly so. Individual capital ships are represented as well as individual generals. I love the production model as well as the OOB by year which dictates what units are available in your production pool. The combat system is more detailed than Advanced Third Reich as well.

For an even more thrilling experience I recommend it's sister game WWII PTO which I also own.

GJK · April 06, 2013, 12:27:07 AM

I've downloaded the updated and indexed rules for SPI's ETO and from what I've read so far, I really like it. That's my next big adventure.

Tonight I set up the 1939 game of Third Reich and started a solo play. I could of done it via VASSAL but it's just so much more enjoyable when you actually lay out the mapboards and pick the counters out and set it all up. You can then step back and see the entire theater at once. The disadvantage is having our kitten roaming around downstairs. Even though I've strategically placed plexiglass and other obstacles to prevent him from getting up on the game table, I just know that he's dying to go explore up there so no telling what I'll find in the morning. I'm imagining some type of cover made of cardboard or some other light material that I can use to cover the entire table. Any ideas on that?

Barthheart · April 06, 2013, 07:20:16 AM

After looking at the table from GeekChic, I've been thinking of building something similar, only much simpler.
You just need a table that has a raised edge of about 2". Then you can make panels that bridge the gap to act as a cover while you're not there.
If you already have a table that you don't mind modifying it should be easy to attach some side pieces and buy a few panels as covers.
Then the cat can walk on it with out worry of going through it. Also pretty kid and cleaning lady proof. 8)

GJK · April 06, 2013, 07:50:50 AM

That's a good idea on the table. I currently have two of these tables downstairs for gaming...

I could get a couple of 2" strips of pine wood and make a border that would fit on the edge of the table and then get some lightweight paneling that could go over the top. I'll have to make a run to the hardware store today to see what I can come up with.

So I started my Third Reich game (boardgame version) last night and got into the Poland invasion a bit. I'm still bouncing around in the rulebook quite a bit but it should ease up after a few turns.

Barthheart · April 06, 2013, 01:28:51 PM

Ha! That's my current gaming table as well.

Just negotiated a room swap with my wife, her large office in the basement for my small sunny office on the ground floor. I'll have more room and can finally build my dream table.
When I finally get my lazy ass in gear and build the damn thing I'll post a pic.... don't hold yer breath though... :P

bob48 · April 06, 2013, 03:35:37 PM

Aye, but Barth, will it be ready for 'Desert Heat'?

TheCommandTent · April 06, 2013, 05:27:20 PM

Quote from: Barthheart on April 06, 2013, 01:28:51 PM
Ha! That's my current gaming table as well.

Just negotiated a room swap with my wife, her large office in the basement for my small sunny office on the ground floor. I'll have more room and can finally build my dream table.
When I finally get my lazy ass in gear and build the damn thing I'll post a pic.... don't hold yer breath though... :P

Look forward to see the pictures.

Barthheart · April 06, 2013, 08:17:17 PM

Quote from: bob48 on April 06, 2013, 03:35:37 PM
Aye, but Barth, will it be ready for 'Desert Heat'?

Nah, doubt I'll have even completed the room swap by then.... :P

Rekim · April 06, 2013, 08:26:34 PM

Apparently GMT has just placed A World at War on their 2013 production calendar. Amazing news considering it is still far short on P500 orders.

http://www.gmtgames.com/news.aspx?showarticle=266

A World at War combines Advanced Third Reich and Empire of the Rising Sun in one box. I understand this version has tons of detail and chrome added compared to the originals. Extra large table not included.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/7614/a-world-at-war

I would love to play this puppy some day, but what are the odds. Then again, those odds are going to be much worse if I don't pick it up ;)