Middle Provincial Era GROGPUBLIC game thread

[Tripoli]

There's an existential threat to Rome even in these relatively dinky wars, simply because if nothing is done about them then next turn you're looking at four active wars -- which if you don't trim down then everyone loses at the end of next Turn's Combat Phase.

Moreover, more wars could show up during the next Forum Phase, and then you'd have more than four wars to deal with.

Also, the immanent war is going to buff the 1st Illyrian War next Turn if both are still around.

The Lusitanian War is about to absorb both Hispanic Provinces, which will buff its strength next Turn.

Those are the current facts on the table. If you don't Deploy a 3rd force (under a Dictator/MoH team), you should be able to wipe two of those wars -- it might even be easier since you'd be dividing your forces among fewer threats. The risk assessment is whether knocking out two wars is safe enough under the circumstances, compared to (somewhat less chance of) knocking out three wars.

That goes to the crux of the question: whether the dictator is necessary.  We can take out two wars right now, without a dictator.  I don't have a problem with a dictator, if necessary.  However, I'm not sure that one is necessary.  Further, I'm a little worried about putting that level of power in one sides' hand unless it is absolutely necessary.  How many more wars are in this deck?  What are the greatest threats to Rome right now?  If it is the wars, and the only way to deal with the threat is a dictator, then I'm okay with a dictator.  I'm not sure that the case was made that this is what we need to be concerned with.  And that concerns me, as it seems that the issue being discussed is more related to the dividing of spoils than the health of the Republic.  And that, IMHO, is how we will lose the game.  We need to establish a stable Balance of Power that preserves the Republic.

[Erax]

Regarding the Dictator, I believe we need one. D/S results can and do occur. If we fight only two wars we could get one D/S, then we'd have three wars next turn for sure plus any that might show up in the cards. I don't know how many wars are in the deck and I don't think we should know, to be honest. FWIW I believe they're spread out a bit more in this Era.

The balance of power is indeed a concern, that's why I proposed AzTank (having the lowest income) be given the Tax Farming concession and the other benefits distributed, for the most part, among the factions with least Influence. Do you realize you have a total influence of 97? That's just below myself, the Frog and AzTank combined.

[JasonPratt]

Just to clarify, I haven't tried making a case for dictator. I do have an opinion, but I haven't stated or argued for it.  O:-)

Re wars in the deck: this is Rome, so lots. ;) You do know for sure there's one more war coming up which you can reasonably expect in the Middle Era, because its Leaders are still around and wouldn't be expected to live until the Late Era -- and in fact historically one of its leaders did live into the equivalent of this game's Middle Era though he never fought against Rome again once his faction was defeated.

Specifically, Carthage has a 3rd War in the deck. This isn't a spoiler, because that data was on the cards; it's only a reminder.

And both Hamilcar and Hannibal are still alive off to the side waiting to see if they die of natural causes before the final Punic War surfaces.


Re D/S results: the one place that wouldn't be a risk right now, would be if you send Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus against the (2nd) Macedonian War: he voids their D/S chances, so if you load him up sufficiently he can win without loss easily. However, he isn't a Consul this Turn, so if you want to knock out the Macedonians right now you'll have to Dictator him.


Let me mention some relevant rules regarding the Lusitanian War: you can kind of fudge fighting the Lusitanian Revolt, because you can send someone out to be a Governor of one of the Spanish Provinces and Deploy an asskicking Garrison of Legions to be under his command. The Provinces have to defend against this War regardless, and you must send a Governor to both Provinces regardless (you can't just say well we'll let the Lusitanians have their Provinces for now and pick them back up later).

So the rules will essentially force you to fight the Lusitanian War this Turn, one way or another. You have three options: Deploy a Commander directly against it from Rome (which will have to be a Consul or a Dictator/MoH team); or make sure one of the Provinces has enough of a military Governor and Garrison Legions to feasibly (or surely) win against the War (according to my clarified and expanded rules on Provincial Wars, you can choose to attack the War from your Province rather than waiting to see which one it'll go for first, so you don't have to bulk a Garrison up in both Provinces -- but you do have to give each a Governor regardless!); or you can send two sacrificial senators to die being overrun, probably, in defeat (though the War does have to punch through the basic land strength of the Provinces plus the Mil Skill) and deal directly with a (slightly) stronger Lucy War next Turn.

Having said that, according to the card data you won't have to worry about the last two Lucy Wars until the next Era.

I'll go find and repost the photo of the Wars for ease of reference...

[JasonPratt]

This doesn't show the Punic Commanders waiting offstage over in the Curia.

[Tripoli]

I appreciate the case you have made for a dictator. What does the senate think? Do we need one?  What are the other players thoughts?

[JasonPratt]

I still haven't really made a case for Dictator. I've only pointed out that if you want to nuke the D/S chances for one of the Wars, you'll need one now (and specifically that senator in AzTank's Faction).

Y'all could instead focus on knocking out two or three of the other three wars and ignore Macedon this Turn, if you didn't want a Dictator.


Relatedly, how could you fight three wars without a Dictator this Turn? Send a high Mil Governor and good Legion Garrison support to one of the Hispanias to fight the Lusitanian revolt (and then some other senator to the other Hispania but not intended to fight); send one Consul to fight the 1st Ill War with lots of support; and then send one Consul to fight the 2nd Ill War!

The rules allow you to deploy against both of the two Illyrian Wars, even though one is only Immanent. The way that would work is:

1.) attacking the 2nd War would make it go immediately Active.

2.) being a second Matching War of that set, it would immediately double the basic land strength of the 1st War. So the 1st War would be 10 instead of 5. The D/S scores wouldn't be affected, so its crappy D5 / S17 chances would remain pretty low.

3.) Whoever is Deployed against the 1st War would have to fight it first. If you don't get a Victory, whoever is Deployed against the 2nd War just sits there, no risk. The newly Active 2nd Ill War would cost another 20 Talents during next Turn's Revenue Phase, but the War is Immanent: it is going to activate first thing next turn anyway and cost the Republic that cash! Activating it sooner won't make that any worse.

4.) If you do get a Victory against the 1st Ill War, then the Force Deployed against the 2nd Ill War gets to take its shot. And that War would only be its normal 4 Land strength, so you wouldn't need to send much to have good chances against it.

The only drawback is that if you knock out the 2nd Ill War this turn, then you'll create the Province of Illyricum -- which the 2nd Macedonian War fights against!

I would have to check the rules to see if they clarify what happens in that case. Would the 2nd Mace War then attack the Ungovernred Province? -- or do the rules allow the War to wait until next Turn? And if it does attack the Ungoverned Province (since it would be impossible to send a Governor there with a garrison before next turn), does it automatically roll over it, adding Illyricum Province to its basic land strength automatically, or does the Ungoverned Province have a technical chance to prevent an automatic Victory (through a fight without player characters present)?

If the rules don't already clarify, I'd lean in the direction of no War attacking newly acquired Ungoverned Provinces, so 2nd Mace wouldn't attack your new Province until next turn. (With a further clarification that if somehow there aren't enough senators to send to Govern everything -- which is entirely possible, and even increasingly possible as the game goes on! -- then an attacking War automatically rolls over and claims the Province.)

[JasonPratt]

(Naturally, by the same token, if you appoint a Dictator, you could attack all four Wars this Turn.  >:D At some point you have to start considering whether dispersal of Legionary force is being dangerously thin however.)

[Erax]

One advantage of fighting three wars with a Dictator is that we can get three veterans, and that's the only way to increase our military power now that we're at max legions.

[JasonPratt]

By the same token, if you spread out your forces (not necessarily recommended) to fight four wars (with two Consuls, a Dictator, and a Governor), you can generate four new veterans -- as long as a regular legion survives each battle without also being outright defeated. (Disasters, Standoffs, and the other S result on the table, still generate a Veteran.)

[malize]

*wonders if he should go to his estate in the alban hills to escape the summer heat*


Lol

[malize]

In the interests of breaking the apparent loggerheads Cato will (if necessary or appropriate) utilize his special ability and propose the following:


Cons get tax
Aristos land con

Appoint Aemilius Furius to Hispania1 (voiding his censor) as gov with 10+3
Replace as censor Cato (with same rules
Alternatively — Aemilius remains censor and Furius is appointed Hispania1 with same deployment

Claudius is appointed/exiles to Hispania2 which he will pledge to better with his vast personal coffers

FC Fabius 4+2 vs Ilyria1
RC Flaminius 4+2 vs Ilyria2

Everyone goes,  no prosecutions, move to next phase

[JasonPratt]

Since a Contract hasn't been majority-agreed to yet, Aemilius isn't Censor yet. No senator with a Major Office, including Censor, can be voted in as Governor, so he can't be voted as Censor and then as a Governor.

However, Cato could be voted Censor and then Aemilius could then be sent to whichever Hispania is stronger to fight against the Lusitanian Revolt. He needs sufficient number of Legions to be Deployed there with him as a Garrison, however, or he'll be steamrolled (most likely) by the Revolt!

[malize]

 aemilius as censor was in the package deal that was made separately for the consulships to start with.   I'd imagine that is in force and binding. 

So I guess the alternative (Furius to hispania1) we send that bulk of legions (10+3...16 strength) and even a Mil 1 trained monkey would win (furius is 3, so 19-6= +13, should crush the Spain issue. (Or do 10+1 and split those other two at one each to the consular forces)

The 2 consuls take out the Illyrians this turn, and those legions could be used vs Macedonian next go round if the Hispania Force is needed for further action there or against other issues that arise

I've made the appropriate strike outs below

[JasonPratt]

Ah, yes, literally everyone signed onto that Contract, so it's still binding as far as it goes: thus Aemilius gets to be Censor (presumably to be deployed against Macedon later), and he can't prosecute anyone who contracted to vote for him -- which was everyone.

I need to go back and look at that Consul contract again however: any terms must be processed and any new Contract must include the previously Contracted terms, BUT if for example his Proposal for Censor depended on Claudius of the Plutocrats being Dictator and yet that wasn't stipulated as a contracted appointment, THEN someone else might be appointed Dictator, and that character's Player wouldn't necessarily have to Propose Aemilius as Censor. Or if no Dictator is appointed (and if none was previously stipulated by the Consular contract), then the Roman Consul (played this turn by Erax) wouldn't necessarily be Contracted to Propose Aemilius as Censor.

Strictly speaking, you haven't used your Cato Tribune ability yet this turn, btw. You're drafting a Contract which you'd be willing to kick off with Cato's Tribune power if enough other players signed on but Erax for some reason didn't. Otherwise if he agreed to it then his senator as the Presiding Magistrate would kick things off under normal procedure instead, and Cato wouldn't need to use his Tribune ability this turn. (On the other hand, since his ability recharges, part of your plan might be to allow Erax to make token shows of resistance for sake of his senators with knights gaining a little extra influence! -- a cynical manipulation of popular support but perfectly within his Faction's special ability rules of course!)

[JasonPratt]

All right, prepare for some rules-insanity! -- or, save yourselves and skip down to the asteriks for the conclusion:

**** LOOK AWAY, LOOK AWAY NOOOWWWWWW! *****

(This isn't plot spoilers for the game, I'm just trying to give an option to keep eyes from glazing out.)

[spoiler]To consolidate information:

The senate phase started with Dictator Scipio of the Aristocrats as Presiding Magistrate, but before he (i.e. I.I.) could do anything, the Frog's preplanned assassination attempt triggered and, with lucky dice, succeeded. The PM post devolved to Claudius, the Roman Consul, who then voluntarily renounced the post as a show of good faith, devolving it to the Field Consul controlled by Erax of the Progressives.

Erax drafted a Contract which would Propose his other senator Flaminius, and Fabius of the Populists, as the new Consuls, with a further stipulation that Contracted Players should vote for Aemilius as Censor, and that if AzTank agrees to this Contract then if Aemilius is elected Censor then he cannot prosecute anyone who agreed to this Contract.

We'll call this the Consul Contract for this Turn. All Players ended up signing onto the Contract.

Since all Players joined this Contract, any new Contract must factor in these results going forward:

1.) Only Flam and Fabius Maximus can be Deployed as Consuls (Roman and Field respectively, since they agreed on that subsequently among themselves). They can't be voted as Governors on the other hand (because they already hold Major Office).

2.) Any other Forces Deployed to fight this Turn will require a Dictator or a Governor as Force Commander.

3.) "I propose Flaminius and Fabius of the Populists, with a package deal for Aemilius of the Conservatives as Censor provided he does not prosecute." -- Erax's wording necessarily implies that any Players who joined this Turn's Consul Contract (which is everyone), are necessarily required to vote for Aemilius as Censor this Turn. HOWEVER...!

4.) ...due to the vagueness of the language, I will allow that the only situation where Aemilius MUST be Proposed as Censor, is if Erax drafts any new Contract this turn before Censor elections. In other words, any Contract drafted by Erax before Censor election, must include Proposing Aemilius as Censor, whether that Proposal will be made by Flaminius as Roman Consul, or by someone else('s character) as Dictator, or by Tribune action (whichever way Erax's Contract draft stipulates but he must stipulate it by some method.)

5.) Any Contract draft presented by Erax this Turn AFTER Censor election, obviously does not need to include Aemilius (or anyone else) Proposed as Censor this Turn (which would then be impossible or redunant). But without having stipulated a time limit on his Contract, Erax would be required to include any Players agreeing to the Contract to Propose Aemilius for Censor at the first available opportunity going forward.

The tricky part here is that all Players Contracturally owe one unified vote for Aemilius as Censor AT THE FIRST AVAILABLE OPPORTUNITY. And Erax owes Aemilius one Proposal as Censor AT ERAX'S FIRST AVAILABLE OPPORTUNITY. These aren't necessarily conjoined to be in the same Contract however.[/spoiler]


The upshot is this: the easiest way forward is for Erax to further draft a Contract for agreement which includes Aemilius as Censor this Turn, which then all Players (including Erax) will fulfill their Contract voting for this turn.

BUT, if you really thought you needed Aemilius Macedonicus free to go be a Dictator this Turn, to Deploy (with his chosen MoH) against the Macedonian War (or alternately if you thought you needed him as the combat Governor of Hispania), there's a way to get that done: have someone other than Erax present a Contract draft with someone other than Macedonicus Proposed as Censor. The alternate draft will need to make provision, whether by Dictator or by Tribune usage, for someone other than Erax to Propose an alternate Censor -- which Erax would then be required to vote against (but as along as enough other Players sign on that won't be a problem, and Erax will get a little free Influence!) But the Contract can otherwise still include Flaminius as the one Proposing things or with the Consuls agreeing to appoint a Dictator who will Propose things going forward, which Erax could agree to.

In that case, Aemilius will still be owed a Proposal as Consul by one of Erax's senators at his first available opportunity; and will still be owed a unanimous vote as Consul by all Players at their first available opportunity.


***** TL;DR VERSION *****

In conclusion: the simplest way to resolve the already-Contracted actions will be for Erax to Propose Aemilius' as Censor this Turn somehow (whether in his own Contract or someone else's), which all Players would then vote for. But if y'all thought you needed Aemilius this Turn somewhere else, I'd allow that with some proper political finagling.  O:-)