As the title says. There is a thread about it on the Civ6 Steam forums and the 2K forums. I am on my kindle right now so I cannot provide the links. I was tolerating Civ6 on my HD hoping for an AI fix. No more. It goes into the trash and I'll never buy a 2K game again.
Edit: OK, see if this works.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/289070/discussions/0/1694923613870153288/
The 2K thread:
https://forums.2k.com/showthread.php?4358981-Please-remove-quot-Red-Shell-quot-monitoring-software-!
Well that sucks. Uninstalled for now. Hopefully they will remove this garbage like several other games have done once they were called out on it.
Sorry to see so many suck-ups in that Steam thread. Why people defend this sort of thing boggles my mind.
Thanks for the heads up.
Holy crap.
:-\ I've been doing a little internet searching and it appears its more than just Civ VI thats infected. One list I saw (https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/red-shell-game-company-is-installing-spyware-on-your-system.48287/) has:
Elder Scrolls Online
Civilization VI
Any game in the Total War series
Kerbal Space Program
Warhammer: Vermintide 2
Dead by Daylight
Warhammer 40k Eternal Crusade
Magic the Gathering Arena
My Time At Portia
Battlerite
AER Memories of Old
Guardians of Ember
The Onion Knights
Realm Grinder
Heroine
Anthem Zero
Krosmaga
Secret World Legends
Hunt: Showdown
Escapists 2
I just did a quick search on my PC and found RedShellSDK.dll in my Kerbal directory. I was not too surprised since there was much noise about the new EULA with that last Kerbal DLC/update.
😳
Do we have another Facebook-privacy-gate sized thing here?
I did not find RedShellSDK.dll on my PC. I did find RedShell.dll in my TW Attila, Warhammer and Warhammer II directories. It was not in Rome 2, Shogun 2, Empire or Napoleon. Time to start some awareness over on their boards?
On Steve's list I only have Total War games and just installed Elder Scrolls Online. I wonder what happens to those games if I attempt to delete Red Shell.
No worries Gus:
http://massivelyop.com/2018/06/01/players-try-to-figure-out-how-to-opt-out-of-elder-scrolls-onlines-new-spyware/
Quote from: steve58 on June 14, 2018, 08:25:01 AM
I just did a quick search on my PC and found RedShellSDK.dll in my Kerbal directory.
Confirmed. (in KSP_Data & KSP_x64_Data - managed directory)
Quote from: Yskonyn on June 14, 2018, 08:56:49 AM
No worries Gus:
http://massivelyop.com/2018/06/01/players-try-to-figure-out-how-to-opt-out-of-elder-scrolls-onlines-new-spyware/
So I guess 'erroneously added' really means "oops, we got caught" ::)
Thanks Yassy - I wonder what Creative Assembly's response will be.
I started a thread over on the CA forum. It was deleted within 5 minutes. So was another thread on RedShell. I also started one the TWC forums.
I found a response from CA in the Steam forums:
Originally posted by CA Ella:
Hey, everyone.
Just so you know: we're not ignoring this issue – we're just making sure we've got all the facts and have addressed all your questions before we post a statement.
We're aiming to get this out ASAP, so thanks for bearing with us in the meantime.
You can also find a brief overview of how Red Shell works here: https://redshell.io/gamers
Quote from: solops on June 14, 2018, 09:21:01 AM
You can also find a brief overview of how Red Shell works here: https://redshell.io/gamers (https://redshell.io/gamers)
I was just reading that page. What bullshit:
QuoteRed Shell tracks information about devices. We collect information including operating system, browser version number, IP address (anonymized through one-way hashing), screen resolution, in-game user id, and font profiles.
QuoteNo. Red Shell tracks "device" based information about your computer. We do not collect any personal information about gamers. We don't collect names, emails, or addresses. Our service basically says "this computer clicked on a link from this YouTube video and the same computer played your game." We have no interest in tracking people, just computers for the purposes of attribution. All of the data we do collect is hashed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_function) for an additional layer of protection.
Bullshit.
Ooooh, just got some updates. Steam posts claim Redshell has been removed from the TW games.
I found the Redshell in Kerbal, Warhammer 1 and Warhammer 2.
Scanning them with AVG and Malwarebytes don't return any warnings.
Quote from: Pete Dero on June 14, 2018, 09:31:51 AM
Scanning them with AVG and Malwarebytes don't return any warnings.
I wouldn't expect them too. It's technically not malware.
Hmm so Steam forumers are claiming that it has been removed but for some here with TW it is still on their machine...?
I just got a warning from Steam that one of my posts was Disrespectful. I +1'd a post by Badinfo, quoted part of his post and added my own comment.
"+1 Badinfo. Uninstalled. Will not buy anything else from Firaxis/2K. Shame on you, and the corporate boot-lickers in this thread for defending you. 2K's action is sneaky, duplicitous and indefensible. No more 2K games for me, EVER."
Quote from: Gusington on June 14, 2018, 09:42:24 AM
Hmm so Steam forumers are claiming that it has been removed but for some here with TW it is still on their machine...?
I rescanned after the updates and found nothing. Either they removed it or "hid" it. I'll scan again and change the parameters.
Steam warned you about that post?? That is some 1984 stuff there.
Hmm now I am really wondering if it is indeed hidden instead of removed in general...
I'm just going to block the damned thing as outlined here:
https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/red-shell-game-company-is-installing-spyware-on-your-system.48287/ (https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/red-shell-game-company-is-installing-spyware-on-your-system.48287/)
https://imgur.com/a/B8ri9uT (https://imgur.com/a/B8ri9uT)
Thanks for posting that, I'm going to do the same thing. Shame on CA, 2K, Zenimax and the others.
Seems too true, unfortunately. Also shame on them for not thinking dorky, bookish gaming dweebs would notice.
I just hope that by removing this stuff it doesn't break the games.
Quote from: Gusington on June 14, 2018, 10:06:26 AM
Seems too true, unfortunately. Also shame on them for not thinking dorky, bookish gaming dweebs would notice.
I just hope that by removing this stuff it doesn't break the games.
The links I posted aren't for removing it. You can block it from phoning home with your info.
Oh. No way to completely remove it?
Quote from: Gusington on June 14, 2018, 10:14:23 AM
Oh. No way to completely remove it?
I dunno. Nuking the DLL could cause problems. Need to research it more.
Blocking it is a good precaution in general. Who the hell knows what other games has the thing.
Quote from: mirth on June 14, 2018, 10:17:32 AM
Who the hell knows what other games has the thing.
This RedShell spyware thing sounds like another secret personal info sales deal through the backdoor of games.
These game producers must've jumped at the idea of making a little extra income off selling their customers' behavioral data to marketing companies via this middle man. ::)
Unfortunately, I think this has been going on for awhile. I'm sure many of you have noticed times when you clicked on a YT video, or hovered your mouse over an online shop link to a specific item, and began noticing targeted advertising with the same or similar products showing up in record time, not long afterward. Just for you, and what you looked at within the last day.
Not excusing this bullcrap in anyway, but today, unless you unplug totally and go off of the grid, all of your daily activities, monetary expenditures, electronic and utility usage is all being tracked. Heck, they are even recording all of your God damn telephone conversations. This app is probably one of the less intrusive of privacy invasions we are subjected to each day. Again, not saying this should be tolerated, or that action shouldn't be taken against, just making a general comment of the state of life affairs these days.
The data collection cat is definitely out of the bag. The privacy ship has already sailed. There is no going back. Its only going to get worse.
Definitely true, but there is a lot the regular guy is not aware of. At least we are aware in this case.
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/customer_rewards.png)
I refuse to quietly give up my privacy to the intruders, however impossible the task. Fighting back in any way I can is the only option. I am digging a hole in the back yard. I need to find a camo tarp to put over it and I am worried that the tarp will knock off my foil hat.
Never give up, never surrender.
-Solops, before his disappearance
From CA_Grace, 20 minutes ago on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/co...e_explanation/
Red Shell is a program we use to measure the effectiveness of our advertising. It's not spyware.
It's a marketing attribution tool. It helps us determine which of our adverts are most effective. It does this in a similar way to other analytics tools by using cookies to generate a unique token from device information, and comparing that with data taken from our marketing campaigns and game activations. In this way we can see which adverts are more effective. You can find out more about it here: https://redshell.io/home
If you like, you can opt-out of web-based and cookie-based tracking by managing your cookie preferences: https://redshell.io/optout.
Whilst Red Shell is only used to measure the effectiveness of our advertising, we can see that players are clearly concerned about it and it will be difficult for us to entirely reassure every player. So, from the next update we will remove the implementation of Red Shell from those Total War games that use it.
------------------------
I'm sorry, but "a program we use to measure the effectiveness of our advertising... It's a marketing attribution tool. It helps us determine which of our adverts are most effective. It does this in a similar way to other analytics tools by using cookies to generate a unique token from device information, and comparing that with data taken from our marketing campaigns and game activations. In this way we can see which adverts are more effective" is the very DEFINITION of spyware!!!
Yep. It's spyware.
What does my hardware have to do with their advertising? I can see them wanting information on my hardware to know if they should add more features to a game, or up the specs. But to be honest, I base almost all of my game purchases on discussion here.
I've got 17 games in my Steam Wishlist. Two are Paradox titles, one of which is DLC. One is Railroad Tycoon II, which I used to have a long time ago. the other 14 are all games you guys have talked about and spoken highly that I've got some interest in. I may never buy them all, but that has nothing to do with any advertising that the publishers are doing.
Quote from: OJsDad on June 14, 2018, 11:50:20 AM
What does my hardware have to do with their advertising?
They want to be able to identify your machine (and you). That way they know that Steam user "OJsDad" is playing games X,Y,Z on his PC. They can also follow your behavior on other platforms. They know what you're watching on Twitch, Youtube, etc. It's all so they can build a profile of you and then market to you or sell your data.
Quote from: mirth on June 14, 2018, 11:57:49 AM
Quote from: OJsDad on June 14, 2018, 11:50:20 AM
What does my hardware have to do with their advertising?
They want to be able to identify your machine (and you). That way they know that Steam user "OJsDad" is playing games X,Y,Z on his PC. They can also follow your behavior on other platforms. They know what you're watching on Twitch, Youtube, etc. It's all so they can build a profile of you and then market to you or sell your data.
At this point in time is there really a difference? In reality it comes down to someone coming up with an idea, and all the bottomfeeders coming in to build ways to monetize said idea.
JH is right in that unless you go full tinfoil hat and unplug from the grid someone somewhere will be trying to make money off of you. I imagine identity thieves would salvatate at that as they have a perfect victim. Someone who has or wants any way to check if their identity is being used elsewhere.
Quote from: jamus34 on June 14, 2018, 12:16:25 PM
JH is right in that unless you go full tinfoil hat and unplug from the grid someone somewhere will be trying to make money off of you. I imagine identity thieves would salvatate at that as they have a perfect victim. Someone who has or wants any way to check if their identity is being used elsewhere.
JH is right. Doesn't mean we should just throw up our hands accept this crap. And there are some simple, common sense ways to minimize your exposure to the tracking. One being to not let your games spy on you.
Steam updated Warhammer I & II and the RedShell files are gone.
Kerbal still has the SDK version.
Quote from: Pete Dero on June 14, 2018, 12:21:23 PM
Steam updated Warhammer I & II and the RedShell files are gone.
O0
Raising voices might not stop the inevitable march of this kind of spyware, but it might slow it down.
So yeah, I think there's value to fighting the good fight.
Look at the loot box thing. When everyone began to lose their mind over Battlefront II, a lot of the push back from the industry and some media was that this kind of thing was inevitable, and this was basically the service model that we should start expecting. EA certainly believed that or they wouldn't have been so egregious in the system they put in Battlefront.
Lo and behold though, push back from Joe and Jane gamer worked. EA had to backtrack, and as a result right now loot boxes are a pariah word for developers. We may not have stopped it, but it's absolutely been slowed down. If people had been quiet about Battlefront 2, just imagine what E3 would look like right now. If they think they can get away with bad business practices, they WILL try.
So yeah, we should be mad about this, and we should let them know. This should be making people just as mad as the lootboxpocalypse.
Quote from: solops on June 14, 2018, 11:18:56 AM
From CA_Grace, 20 minutes ago on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/co...e_explanation/
Red Shell is a program we use to measure the effectiveness of our advertising. It's not spyware.
It's a marketing attribution tool. It helps us determine which of our adverts are most effective. It does this in a similar way to other analytics tools by using cookies to generate a unique token from device information, and comparing that with data taken from our marketing campaigns and game activations. In this way we can see which adverts are more effective. You can find out more about it here: https://redshell.io/home
If you like, you can opt-out of web-based and cookie-based tracking by managing your cookie preferences: https://redshell.io/optout.
Whilst Red Shell is only used to measure the effectiveness of our advertising, we can see that players are clearly concerned about it and it will be difficult for us to entirely reassure every player. So, from the next update we will remove the implementation of Red Shell from those Total War games that use it.
------------------------
I'm sorry, but "a program we use to measure the effectiveness of our advertising... It's a marketing attribution tool. It helps us determine which of our adverts are most effective. It does this in a similar way to other analytics tools by using cookies to generate a unique token from device information, and comparing that with data taken from our marketing campaigns and game activations. In this way we can see which adverts are more effective" is the very DEFINITION of spyware!!!
What! Total War has it too!!
Here's a list of game with Red Shell. I was just about to pull the trigger on Civ VI: Rise and Fall until I learned about this.
Elder Scrolls Online
Civilization VI
Any game in the Total War series
Kerbal Space Program
Warhammer: Vermintide 2
Dead by Daylight
Warhammer 40k Eternal Crusade
Magic the Gathering Arena
My Time At Portia
Battlerite
AER Memories of Old
Guardians of Ember
The Onion Knights
Realm Grinder
Heroine
Anthem Zero
Krosmaga
Secret World Legends
Hunt: Showdown
Escapists 2
Steve58 posted the list on the first page - then mirth (I think) discovered on page 3 that it had been removed from Total War games.
Quote from: mirth on June 14, 2018, 11:57:49 AM
Quote from: OJsDad on June 14, 2018, 11:50:20 AM
What does my hardware have to do with their advertising?
They want to be able to identify your machine (and you). That way they know that Steam user "OJsDad" is playing games X,Y,Z on his PC. They can also follow your behavior on other platforms. They know what you're watching on Twitch, Youtube, etc. It's all so they can build a profile of you and then market to you or sell your data.
The problem for them is that I watch very little YouTube. My son watches quite a bit on my gaming computer. So the information their getting is not accurate at all. I don't watch Twitch either. So their profile for me is going to be totally worthless.
Actually, not totally worthless. The ads shown on Youtube will more match your son than you. And if he is the main user, that parts kind of a win for them. But, obviously, that is only a small part of the profile they build.
As has been said already and while I don't think its ethical to "hide" this kind of tracking in games, if you are using an android or iOS phone, there is a lot more being collected on you than this system could ever track.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on June 14, 2018, 04:26:33 PM
Raising voices might not stop the inevitable march of this kind of spyware, but it might slow it down.
So yeah, I think there's value to fighting the good fight.
Look at the loot box thing. When everyone began to lose their mind over Battlefront II, a lot of the push back from the industry and some media was that this kind of thing was inevitable, and this was basically the service model that we should start expecting. EA certainly believed that or they wouldn't have been so egregious in the system they put in Battlefront.
Lo and behold though, push back from Joe and Jane gamer worked. EA had to backtrack, and as a result right now loot boxes are a pariah word for developers. We may not have stopped it, but it's absolutely been slowed down. If people had been quiet about Battlefront 2, just imagine what E3 would look like right now. If they think they can get away with bad business practices, they WILL try.
So yeah, we should be mad about this, and we should let them know. This should be making people just as mad as the lootboxpocalypse.
This x2.
Permissiveness just allows bad behavior to get worse.
^ you feminist, you! :smitten:
Implemented that host file fix thing mirth shared. Deleted all of my total war games from my hard drive. Not going to buy anything from CA again.
Am I over reacting? Maybe, but guess what? I don't have to spend my money on a company that's going to pull this sort of nonsense. It is no wonder why board gaming is on the rise. It may not be in response to spyware but at least no one can track your movements by chits or otherwise. :)
Quote from: Yskonyn on June 15, 2018, 02:05:22 PM
^ you feminist, you! :smitten:
When we were dating 16 years ago my bisexual wife told me I was the best lesiban she'd ever met. O:-)
there would be a way to fight back
we need a program running in the background that constantly checks for random things (from a long long list) at Google, Amazon, Ebay, look up places and routes at Google maps, visit random Facebook and Twitter pages and starts random YT and Twitch vids, also it should be able to randomly spoof those system spec and browsers id that are usually grabbed too.
you get the idea (i let the details and what is possible to the open source genius nerds who would develop the code, of course it has to be open source)
...lets call it an "user activity white noise generator"
so your real activity fade into the background of the noise and the collected info about you will be worthless
when those 'spy software' like RedShell or the algorithms running at the companies end like Goggle recognise that the user has a noise generator up/installed, it will probably exclude him preemptive because it 'pollutes' their general data mine treasure, the statistics
so even having such a noise program installed may be already enuf to get left alone.
Quote from: W8taminute on June 15, 2018, 07:24:47 PM
Implemented that host file fix thing mirth shared. Deleted all of my total war games from my hard drive. Not going to buy anything from CA again.
Am I over reacting? Maybe, but guess what? I don't have to spend my money on a company that's going to pull this sort of nonsense. It is no wonder why board gaming is on the rise. It may not be in response to spyware but at least no one can track your movements by chits or otherwise. :)
Actually CA seems to have removed it pretty quickly in response. I'm ok with that. The Elder Scrolls folks also seem to have responded quickly, and are removing it... "for now" which isn't as reassuring and gives me pause about buying into ESO (was intrigued by the Morrowind expansion have played rather a lot of the original back in the day). Haven't heard anything about the Civ VI folks removing it yet so it will remain uninstalled.
Quote from: Bardolph on June 16, 2018, 02:51:52 AM
Quote from: W8taminute on June 15, 2018, 07:24:47 PM
Implemented that host file fix thing mirth shared. Deleted all of my total war games from my hard drive. Not going to buy anything from CA again.
Am I over reacting? Maybe, but guess what? I don't have to spend my money on a company that's going to pull this sort of nonsense. It is no wonder why board gaming is on the rise. It may not be in response to spyware but at least no one can track your movements by chits or otherwise. :)
Actually CA seems to have removed it pretty quickly in response. I'm ok with that. The Elder Scrolls folks also seem to have responded quickly, and are removing it... "for now" which isn't as reassuring and gives me pause about buying into ESO (was intrigued by the Morrowind expansion have played rather a lot of the original back in the day). Haven't heard anything about the Civ VI folks removing it yet so it will remain uninstalled.
The prompt response by CA and the Elder Scrolls folks clearly indicates that those companies respect their customers enough to cancel their cash grab in the form of spyware.
The fact that 2K has yet to respond speaks volumes.
Quote from: Yskonyn on June 15, 2018, 02:05:22 PM
^ you feminist, you! :smitten:
"I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body."
^That's my line! Except it's "13 year old boy's body"
https://www.bluesnews.com/s/191118/games-removing-sdk-amid-spyware-accusations
Games who used Redshell which removed or pledged to remove it (as of 16.06.2018):
Elder Scrolls Online (Pledged to remove it)
Conan Exiles (Pledged to remove it)
Ylands (Removed)
Holy Potatoes! We're in Space?! (Pledged to remove it)
All Total War games, (Pledged to remove it)
Warhammer: Vermintide II, (Pledged to remove it)
Warhammer: Vermintide I, (might get removed also?)
My Time At Portia, (Pledged to remove it)
Dead by Daylight, (Pledged to remove it)
Battlerite, (Pledged to remove it)
AER Memories of Old, (Pledged to remove it)
Magic the Gathering Arena (closed beta & not on Steam), (Pledged to remove it for now)
Secret World Legends (Pledged to remove remains of it)
Hunt: Showdown (Pledged to remove it)
Escapists 2 (Pledged to remove it)
Omensight (Pledged to remove it)
Games still using Redshell according to community reports (as of 16.06.2018):
Civilization VI,
Kerbal Space Program,
Guardians of Ember,
The Onion Knights,
Realm Grinder,
Heroine Anthem Zero,
Warhammer 40k Eternal Crusade,
Krosmaga
Eternal Card Game
Sniper Ghost Warrior 3
Astro Boy: Edge of Time
Ballistic Overkill
Cabals: Card Blitz
CityBattle | Virtual Earth
Desolate
Doodle God
Doodle God Blitz
Dungeon Rushers
Labyrinth
My Free Farm 2
NosTale
RockShot
Shadowverse
SOS & SOS Classic
SoulWorker
Stonies
Tales from Candlekeep: Tomb of Annihilation
War Robots
Survived By
Injustice 2
The Wild Eight
New Adds:
Yoku's Island Express
Raging Justice
Warriors: Rise to Glory!
Trailmakers
Clone Drone in the Danger Zone
Vaporum
Robothorium
League of Pirates
Doodle God: Genesis Secrets
thanks for the list, Pete.
Looks like I will have to remove Doodle God from my hard drive.
Quote from: Gusington on June 18, 2018, 11:39:13 AM
Looks like I will have to remove Doodle God from my hard drive.
I read that as Dongle God :-\
Add 'Dongle God' to Gus' list of nicknames
Approved.
Thanks for the updated list. 2K is not making a good impression with their silence.
Quote from: mirth on June 18, 2018, 01:37:57 PM
Add 'Dongle God' to Gus' list of nicknames
Hey, wait a minute...
Quote from: RyanE on June 18, 2018, 07:23:07 PM
Quote from: mirth on June 18, 2018, 01:37:57 PM
Add 'Dongle God' to Gus' list of nicknames
Hey, wait a minute...
You two fight it out in Dongle Dome.
There is no mercy rule in Dongle Dome.
Nor should there be
Ooo, dueling dongles.
^Careful...
There can be only one...dongle.
^I agree...
^well there's something
Hahaha - I like turtles.
What about Ninja turtles?
Occasionally.
Quote from: mirth on June 18, 2018, 08:09:54 PM
What about Ninja turtles?
Whaddabout brown turtle heads?
JUST THINK OF THE BROWN TURTLE HEADS!
Eek
This thread makes me want to play Civ 6 again.
Quote from: bbmike on June 20, 2018, 07:17:37 PM
This thread makes me want to play Civ 6 again.
Or you could just enable automatic updates on your Win 10 box.
Bumping this as I just received a Steam message that Civ VI is being updated and that they are adding cross play support for PC to Mac AND removing Red Shell.
Took 'em a while but I guess they decided to listen.
Too little, too late. Civ 6 deleted and those 2K bozos are blacklisted. I am back to playing modded Civ4, a superior game by all measurements.
Thanks for the heads-up, Jamus. O0