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Digital Gaming => Computer Gaming => Topic started by: solops on July 08, 2017, 10:50:43 AM

Title: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: solops on July 08, 2017, 10:50:43 AM
I am starting a new thread dedicated to Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic.
Per Ghostryder: "AOW3 felt like an unfinished series. It never approached what AOW2 brought to the table in both scope, races and options. You could say the graphics improved and the battles were more fun to watch but on the other hand you never defended four walls in a castle -- the layout only allowed frontal attacks and walls were merely 1 turn or 2 turn delays---in effect giving the impression they were props rather than castles. In every instance they were indeed props. A fatal flaw that simply made AOW3 nothing like the series originally brought to the mix- which in short was an expanded Warlords game.

They also dragged their feet big time in modding tools and the game never saw the wealth of mods AOW2 enjoyed. By the time the tools were available everybody had moved on to better and more complete games. It is the mods that keep AOW2 alive-and to this day there is no better LOTR mod even close to what Lord of the Rings in the Third Age - War of the Ring v1.3 bring to the table. par that with a downloaded soundtrack and you have the best LOTR game going- and one tough sucker to win. I sank over 300 hours into beating that mod--it was the most fun I'd had in ages.

If you own age of magic I highly recommend you give it a go. Read the readme for install instructions"     and  You need Age of magic. This version introduced shadow magic- the underworld races. It also fixed many issues found in AOW2. Almost all mods require Age of magic. AOW2 simply died after it's release as it's just so much better. Many differences was the addition of siege weapons. On the flip side of too fast siege combat in AOW3 AOW2 was the opposite where sieges took forever. Shadow magic rebalances them to where they didn't drag on forever. With the host of new races and a much improved editor it's the only version to get.

I got my version on GOG. Buying the sountack off amazon is well worth it. With the mod and soundtrack it absolutely tranforms the game into a LOTR strategy game. The hardest part of installing the mod really boils down to renaming the resource file. You do this to use all the new units and resources created in the mod. Renaming it to .old so you can convert back to play the default game. You select the new resources file by running AOWsetup.exe. On starting the scenerio it is where you should choose the recommended options as well as the custom soundtrack files so they play when you start the game. Remember also to use 'O' once in the game to set options to not follow A.I. units---otherwise turns will take forever as the mod ups the units 100x. I'm serious. I never saw so many units in the game before. "
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: solops on July 08, 2017, 10:52:04 AM
Aaaand I got the Steam version and cannot seem to get the 1.4 or 1.5 updates to work. The program crashes after trying to start it after either patch is installed. Any hints? SHOULD I install either? They seem to fix a lot of stuff.
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: JasonPratt on July 08, 2017, 11:42:27 AM
I use GoG instead. Maybe refund and get that version?
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: ComradeP on July 08, 2017, 12:21:23 PM
I've recently bought the AoW series during the summer sale at GOG.

Though I like the original and Shadow Magic, there are a few serious problems that after some 50 hours or so have removed most of the fun from the singleplayer game. It's probably an excellent multiplayer game, but the singleplayer game thus far feels far less balanced than (say) singleplayer in the Heroes of Might and Magic series or Disciples.

The first: heroes are extremely overpowered compared to ground units at higher levels. In many cases I can literally auto-resolve my way across the map in the original. It's somewhat more difficult in Shadow Magic but you can get most skills in the game through the item forge. As "use" items don't need to be equipped to work, you can add as many skills as you like to get a very strong hero. In my opinion, they should've worked on this after it was so bad in the original, not make heroes even more powerful through the addition of the item forge.

Though city sieges are interesting on paper, AI behaviour has serious issues which mean you can just let the AI run around in circles around your walls as you shoot them, or park a flying unit somewhere to get a stalemate if the enemy has no ranged units. You're supposed to lose your initial city in the nomad campaign, for example, but you can keep it if you know what you're doing.

Now, you could say that the player is at fault if he uses these tricks, but in my opinion the design is to blame as well. Winning as quickly and as efficiently as possible is a reasonable goal when playing a game, there's little to no "story" to follow during missions that you have to wait on so there's no need to keep playing for a large number of turns.

As armies have an 8 unit size limit, battles are also not all that interesting as they tend to feature the same units. HoMM's battles can contain a few dozen to thousands of creatures, in a limited number of units but still more than enough to provide variety.

There's little to no fun in using superheroes with gold dragons over and over in each map. The time it takes to create a superhero even feels a bit like a burden in each of the campaigns.

In short: great multiplayer, not so great singleplayer due to balance issues giving the player serious advantages over the AI.
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: airboy on July 08, 2017, 12:27:17 PM
Quote from: ComradeP on July 08, 2017, 12:21:23 PM
I've recently bought the AoW series during the summer sale at GOG.

Though I like the original and Shadow Magic, there are a few serious problems that after some 50 hours or so have removed most of the fun from the singleplayer game. It's probably an excellent multiplayer game, but the singleplayer game thus far feels far less balanced than (say) singleplayer in the Heroes of Might and Magic series or Disciples.

The first: heroes are extremely overpowered compared to ground units at higher levels. In many cases I can literally auto-resolve my way across the map in the original. It's somewhat more difficult in Shadow Magic but you can get most skills in the game through the item forge. As "use" items don't need to be equipped to work, you can add as many skills as you like to get a very strong hero. In my opinion, they should've worked on this after it was so bad in the original, not make heroes even more powerful through the addition of the item forge.

Though city sieges are interesting on paper, AI behaviour has serious issues which mean you can just let the AI run around in circles around your walls as you shoot them, or park a flying unit somewhere to get a stalemate if the enemy has no ranged units. You're supposed to lose your initial city in the nomad campaign, for example, but you can keep it if you know what you're doing.

Now, you could say that the player is at fault if he uses these tricks, but in my opinion the design is to blame as well. Winning as quickly and as efficiently as possible is a reasonable goal when playing a game, there's little to no "story" to follow during missions that you have to wait on so there's no need to keep playing for a large number of turns.

As armies have an 8 unit size limit, battles are also not all that interesting as they tend to feature the same units. HoMM's battles can contain a few dozen to thousands of creatures, in a limited number of units but still more than enough to provide variety.

There's little to no fun in using superheroes with gold dragons over and over in each map. The time it takes to create a superhero even feels a bit like a burden in each of the campaigns.

In short: great multiplayer, not so great singleplayer due to balance issues giving the player serious advantages over the AI.

I concur.  Once I beat it I never played it again.  Enjoyed it - once.
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: solops on July 08, 2017, 12:33:31 PM
Hummmmmm. I am having some crash problems, too. Not the first time I have had that happen with an old game acquired via Steam.
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: solops on July 08, 2017, 12:34:58 PM
Quote from: ComradeP on July 08, 2017, 12:21:23 PM
I've recently bought the AoW series during the summer sale at GOG.

Though I like the original and Shadow Magic, there are a few serious problems that after some 50 hours or so have removed most of the fun from the singleplayer game. It's probably an excellent multiplayer game, but the singleplayer game thus far feels far less balanced than (say) singleplayer in the Heroes of Might and Magic series or Disciples.

The first: heroes are extremely overpowered compared to ground units at higher levels. In many cases I can literally auto-resolve my way across the map in the original. It's somewhat more difficult in Shadow Magic but you can get most skills in the game through the item forge. As "use" items don't need to be equipped to work, you can add as many skills as you like to get a very strong hero. In my opinion, they should've worked on this after it was so bad in the original, not make heroes even more powerful through the addition of the item forge.

Though city sieges are interesting on paper, AI behaviour has serious issues which mean you can just let the AI run around in circles around your walls as you shoot them, or park a flying unit somewhere to get a stalemate if the enemy has no ranged units. You're supposed to lose your initial city in the nomad campaign, for example, but you can keep it if you know what you're doing.

Now, you could say that the player is at fault if he uses these tricks, but in my opinion the design is to blame as well. Winning as quickly and as efficiently as possible is a reasonable goal when playing a game, there's little to no "story" to follow during missions that you have to wait on so there's no need to keep playing for a large number of turns.

As armies have an 8 unit size limit, battles are also not all that interesting as they tend to feature the same units. HoMM's battles can contain a few dozen to thousands of creatures, in a limited number of units but still more than enough to provide variety.

There's little to no fun in using superheroes with gold dragons over and over in each map. The time it takes to create a superhero even feels a bit like a burden in each of the campaigns.

In short: great multiplayer, not so great singleplayer due to balance issues giving the player serious advantages over the AI.

Do the 1.4 or 1.5 patch fix any of this?
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: JasonPratt on July 08, 2017, 01:52:16 PM
My impression of 1.4 many years ago is that it mainly updated scenario building, and the descriptions I've read of 1.5 indicate a conservative patch that helps more with scenario building.

ComradeP's comments are correct, although frankly I think the game is much better than the Disciples series (in terms of gameplay). Heroes can quickly get overpowered, although the Item Forge was ported in directly as an attempt to make the game more of a proper successor to the seminal Masters of Magic. You can, of course, simply play without heroes, aside from your avatar, and minimally outfit that one.

Army limits remain a big handicap, in SM, partly because the series had not yet returned (for no clear reason I can understand) to the original MoM's multi-unit pieces (8 halfling slingers as one 'piece' on the map, for example. MoM's halfling slingers could get overpowered as all hell, btw. ;) ) I was glad to see AoW3 return to the multi-unit pieces on the tactical map, which helps address the army paucity.

That said, things aren't as entirely pauce as ComP made out: there's a game mechanic where all stacks in hexes bordering the target hex will (or can) get drawn into the fight, and that can bump things up a lot, including potentially better defender numbers on average (assuming 3 hexes of main supporting attackers against 3 hexes of supporting defenders plus 1 hex of defenders in the attacked space.) Plus mages can summon creatures to the battlefield, and while I don't recall the restrictions on that, even if a slot must be emptied first (which seems plausible for the engine anyway) this still increases the amount of threat a player can bring to the fight.

I never personally had much problem with the AI meandering around the cities aimlessly during a fight (unless there were effects intending that result, of course): they will typically make a beeline for the gates, except for those units which can fly or scale walls who will go for units. It is however true that the AI is not programmed to recognize that there is no point trying to take a city with even one flying defender unless it brings a way to beat the flyer. There are many ways to try that, even for the AI, which might be unwittingly brought to the fight anyway, so this isn't an all-powerful defense, but it can be important in the early-mid game (or earlier for any factions with starting fliers).
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: JasonPratt on July 08, 2017, 01:53:32 PM
Oh, note that patch 1.5 requires patch 1.4 (for some reason), so both must be installed if you're going to unofficially patch up.
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: JasonPratt on July 08, 2017, 02:23:22 PM
(The patches do add units to custom random-generated scenarios, too, and make some adjustments to units and to magical powers etc., but the basic functionality of the game doesn't change, and ComP's comments aren't altered by the patches: heroes are still overpowered, but you can choose to play random scenarios with few or no heroes, or limit their levels, etc.)
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: Arctic Blast on July 08, 2017, 04:16:22 PM
Quote from: solops on July 08, 2017, 10:52:04 AM
Aaaand I got the Steam version and cannot seem to get the 1.4 or 1.5 updates to work. The program crashes after trying to start it after either patch is installed. Any hints? SHOULD I install either? They seem to fix a lot of stuff.

Wait, are you trying to manually install those updates on the Steam version? It will auto update. You don't need to do that.
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: solops on July 08, 2017, 04:35:33 PM
Quote from: Arctic Blast on July 08, 2017, 04:16:22 PM
Quote from: solops on July 08, 2017, 10:52:04 AM
Aaaand I got the Steam version and cannot seem to get the 1.4 or 1.5 updates to work. The program crashes after trying to start it after either patch is installed. Any hints? SHOULD I install either? They seem to fix a lot of stuff.

Wait, are you trying to manually install those updates on the Steam version? It will auto update. You don't need to do that.

Tried both ways. There is no auto-update for these patches. They are "unofficial."
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: ghostryder on July 10, 2017, 08:43:54 AM
For those having troubles running AOW:SM. Especially in windows 10.

First it's important to run the AOWSETUP program in compatability mod. Otherwise all the options-especially resolution options do not display. If you choose 'windowed' as an option be advised that that will automatically disable using directx and almost all the eyecandy as well as options like zoom will not function.

I'd put the main exe as compatabily as well. I choose win98 SE with all the updates which solved any issues I was having.

The game still will run somewhat sluggish on windows 10. A fresh reboot as well as making sure you have no disks in your cd drive will help--a fault of the engine that wants to browse every folder and every file when in fact all it really needs to do is find the save location--but remember games are written fast and dirty and that dirt always shows up as things get more refined in windows.

As for comments on army limits. In the LOTR mod stacks are limited to 8--but by no means does that mean only 8 units attacks your castles. expect multiple stacks approaching over 100 units when the dark army gets going. This is a different game and these concerns really do not apply.

Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: solops on July 10, 2017, 09:30:40 PM
Thanks Ghostryder. Outstandingly useful information. I have been playing non-stop for 48 hours. I returned the Steam version, which was crashy and not update-able, and got the game from GOG. Most fun I have had since the first week of Civ4. I will try the Ring War mod in a week or two.
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: ghostryder on July 10, 2017, 10:49:23 PM
Glad it helped.

As my system is win10 all i did was install the GOG version. Never bothered to update and the LOTR mod runs flawlessly---once you experience the mod your never go back to the default game.

As mention-put the setup file to compatability and I use windowed set to my default monitor resolution. You lose the Direct3D but the game runs better without it for me. Been crash free 50 turns into the mod.
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: Greybriar on July 11, 2017, 01:48:56 PM
From a post in a previous thread (http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=19928.0):

Quote from: ghostryder on July 05, 2017, 07:27:19 AM
AOW3 felt like an unfinished series. It never approached what AOW2 brought to the table in both scope, races and options. You could say the graphics improved and the battles were more fun to watch but on the other hand you never defended four walls in a castle -- the layout only allowed frontal attacks and walls were merely 1 turn or 2 turn delays---in effect giving the impression they were props rather than castles. In every instance they were indeed props. A fatal flaw that simply made AOW3 nothing like the series originally brought to the mix- which in short was an expanded Warlords game.

They also dragged their feet big time in modding tools and the game never saw the wealth of mods AOW2 enjoyed. By the time the tools were available everybody had moved on to better and more complete games. It is the mods that keep AOW2 alive-and to this day there is no better LOTR mod even close to what Lord of the Rings in the Third Age - War of the Ring v1.3 bring to the table. par that with a downloaded soundtrack and you have the best LOTR game going- and one tough sucker to win. I sank over 300 hours into beating that mod--it was the most fun I'd had in ages.

If you own age of magic I highly recommend you give it a go. Read the readme for install instructions

http://aow2.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=386

This mod doesn't work for me. :(
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: ghostryder on July 11, 2017, 08:11:42 PM
You must be doing something wrong during install. Make sure you run AOWsetup in compatability mode--like win98/ME---in there select custom resources and pick the LordoftheRings resource. Also set your resolution (windowed) and language to English. If you copied and renamed files correctly you should be good to go. As per readme--assuming the default installation path

Portraits go in
C:\Program Files\Age of Wonders Shadow Magic\Images\Portraits


In the Dict folder C:\Program Files\Age of Wonders Shadow Magic\Dict ----- find and rename ResStr.MLD to ResStrOLD.MLD (you rename it back when you go back to normal games.) and then copy over the supplied ResStr.MLD  -- this is for all the reworked spells and text and such--and is critical and the one step most people screw up on.

The lord of the Rings resources folder goes in C:\Program Files\Age of Wonders Shadow Magic\User\Resources --- Note the 'resources' fold may not exit and your need to create it (right-click in location)


And the map goes into C:\Program Files\Age of Wonders Shadow Magic\Scenario\Custom

Custom units go in C:\Program Files\Age of Wonders Shadow Magic\Images\Units

in my winzip program I had to extract each folder seperately after unzipping the downloaded mod zip ---- 
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: solops on July 11, 2017, 10:23:24 PM
I am having fun playing the un-modded game with the 1.4 and 1.5 patches installed. I set all exe files to run as Administrator in Win98 compatibility mode. I am playing in 1980x1024 res with no problems and the zoom works fine as well. I am somewhat concerned for the future, though. I tried twice to run the game with the 1.4 dataset activated in the alternate rule box of the AOWsetup. When I do so, the game crashes before the loading screen appears. This bodes ill for mod playability. I had to reinstall the games from scratch to get it to run again. No combination of set-ups or patch de-installation would allow the game to run.
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: ghostryder on July 12, 2017, 04:19:23 AM
I never patched my game-whatever the GOG version is...I think 1.3. Mods work fine. the unofficial patches don't add much unless you play a mod aimed at using the new tile sets and such--and things are finicky enough with the game in Windows 10.

Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: JasonPratt on July 12, 2017, 08:12:00 AM
If I recall correctly, the 1.3 version should still be archived by the patching process as a "mod" which can be activated. But I don't think mods can be combined? -- if not, then it's better to have a clean install, with all official patches, before modding to LotR or whatever.
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: solops on July 12, 2017, 12:02:56 PM
Quote from: ghostryder on July 12, 2017, 04:19:23 AM
I never patched my game-whatever the GOG version is...I think 1.3. Mods work fine. the unofficial patches don't add much unless you play a mod aimed at using the new tile sets and such--and things are finicky enough with the game in Windows 10.

So, if I have problems with the Rings mod (in my v1.5 setup), then the best solution is to reinstall the game sans unofficial updates. The installation version from GOG is 1.3. Might try some other setup permutations first.
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: Greybriar on July 12, 2017, 03:36:14 PM
Quote from: ghostryder on July 11, 2017, 08:11:42 PM
You must be doing something wrong during install. Make sure you run AOWsetup in compatability mode--like win98/ME---in there select custom resources and pick the LordoftheRings resource. Also set your resolution (windowed) and language to English. If you copied and renamed files correctly you should be good to go. As per readme--assuming the default installation path

Portraits go in
C:\Program Files\Age of Wonders Shadow Magic\Images\Portraits


In the Dict folder C:\Program Files\Age of Wonders Shadow Magic\Dict ----- find and rename ResStr.MLD to ResStrOLD.MLD (you rename it back when you go back to normal games.) and then copy over the supplied ResStr.MLD  -- this is for all the reworked spells and text and such--and is critical and the one step most people screw up on.

The lord of the Rings resources folder goes in C:\Program Files\Age of Wonders Shadow Magic\User\Resources --- Note the 'resources' fold may not exit and your need to create it (right-click in location)


And the map goes into C:\Program Files\Age of Wonders Shadow Magic\Scenario\Custom

Custom units go in C:\Program Files\Age of Wonders Shadow Magic\Images\Units

in my winzip program I had to extract each folder seperately after unzipping the downloaded mod zip ----

Can you explain to my why the game and its files must be placed on the C:\ drive and in the Program Files directory? I used GOG Galaxy to install the game on my D:\ drive and it works just fine. But when I manually installed the game to a different directory on the D:\ drive and then installed the mod, the mod doesn't work. ???
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: ghostryder on July 12, 2017, 10:24:24 PM
It's a permission thing in Windows 10. I usually keep my games on another drive (F:) but when I installed Gog's version on drive F: I had multiple problems. Using the supplied editor when I edited a map and tried to save it Windows wouldn't allow it. But I could go into C: drive and save it. Then manually copy it over to the scenerio folder on F:.

Later i discovered I had wasted half a day's play time when my save file would not load. Those same permission issues corrupted it-although I never got any error messages when I saved the game. 50 turns down the drain. One you play the LOTR mod your undestand how much 50 turns is.  :pullhair:

So i deleted the game and directed the installer to C: and no more problems.

I haven't spent a lot a time investigating but on my now rusty MS experience (I left Microsoft during XP release--hard to believe it's been 15 years) my first guess is it's permissions. When you scroll C: driver -as an example and at the bottom is a folder 'Users' then inside of that your name---that is is short your presensce as far as windows is concerned. Outside of that User folder remains other public accounts--and so forth...and in short if your on drive D: or F: or whatnot you've just left your user account back on drive c: and all it's permissions as the admin.

Somehow the GoG installer is borked and is failing to carry over to any other location those permissions. In fact after installing the game on drive C: and I use file explore the game is completely invisible on the drive and if i need to run the setup file or copy a mod to the folder I locate the folder by the properties inside the destop shortcut (Right click...go to properties and then choose 'go to file location' because the location does not show at all in explorer.

my guess this stuff also effects those patches and mods. The game must be within your 'User' domain...or in short...On Drive c:

I suspect the installer because anytime you install a program windows registers those files inside SFC. Since those files are basically invisible to explorer as far as windows is concerned it doesn't exit. Therefore it's not going to allow a file to update a file windows conciders not there. Nor will it allow DirectX hooks in D3D for something it conciders not there-and is why the game runs better in software mod. Only a borked installer can prevent windows from registering files. Something in it is screwed up. Short of going to every file in the game and going into properties and adjusting permissions installing it under the umbrella of your 'User' account grants those permissions.




Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: Greybriar on July 12, 2017, 10:35:10 PM
I really am sick and tired of jumping through hoops for Windows. :(
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: solops on July 13, 2017, 12:06:10 AM
My installation is on Drive G. If I run into a wall, I know what to try.
I hate Windows.
I miss DOS. I liked writing batch files.
Title: Re: Age of Wonders - Shadow Magic
Post by: ghostryder on July 13, 2017, 12:22:10 AM
...and boot disks and messing around with IRQ interrupts for soundblaster cards..... :crazy2:

Frankly it's the game industry at fault. you can spot the bad ones easy enough. Their the ones on the forums explaining away their bug ridden game with the long time excuse "well....there's so many different hardware configurations...." . Perhaps the average joe believes it but I for one absolutely know they in no way are directly writing to any hardware on a system level in any way. Windows handles that. And that is what they are writing to. if any of them ever bothered reading the SDK they'd even know the correct way to do it.

That's why MS pushed the soundcard out of the system. the clowns wrote such horrid drivers that kept engineers at MS busy costing millions. By the time win2000 came around we finally solved the problem of everyone replacing system .dlls breaking 20 other programs dependant on that .dll. And at the head of the list of the worse violators were game devs. Now if a game tries to replace a system .dll Windows puts it back. Now the game won't run but then again now it doesn't break 10 other programs.

in other words Windows always had to go in the direction of strong arming devs to do things right because they refused to do it on their own.

On the plus side...this is exactly why those yearly Fdisk and windows reinstalls are no longer necessary...and likely also why that old win98/95 game won't run. because it's trying to replace some system /dll and winXP onward will nuke the bad .dll and put the correct one in. 

It's the only way to have a stable OS. No one ever replaced DOS files--so I never understood the logic of them doing that in windows. But that's is exactly what has led to this kind of thing.