San Bernadino, Apple and Data Encryption

Started by mirth, February 17, 2016, 09:27:30 AM

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airboy

Quote from: Barthheart on February 23, 2016, 02:03:50 PM
Quote from: airboy on February 23, 2016, 10:05:20 AM
My knowledge of this comes from the original set of wiretapping cases from the 1930s and the extensive coverage of this in the Wall St. Journal.

I have been involved in the legal system as an expert and from being sued.  According to the WSJ - Apple cannot win this due to very clear case law.

So you're saying that the courts can force a private company to divert resources from it's business to write code to break it's own encryption?  ???

The Justice Department & Apple seem to be talking past each other.  I reread the latest article today while giving an exam. 
The federal judge told Apple has to decrypt this one phone and provide the information.  Apple is arguing (in the press) that they will not provide a back-door, remote de-encryption process.

These are not the same thing.  Apple itself could decrypt the phone and turn over the records to the Justice Dept.  If Apple's encryption is so wonderful that they cannot break it, then the NSA or some other group will be hired to decrypt it.

BTW, companies fight losing battles in the courts to delay things or to serve a PR process.  Apple has an order from a judge to provide the information.  The likelihood they will win this is so remote as to be almost beyond belief.

Huw the Poo

Quote from: airboy on February 23, 2016, 05:11:24 PM
Apple itself could decrypt the phone and turn over the records to the Justice Dept.

No they couldn't!  Again, you have not understood this case.  Apple can't break the encryption, that's the whole point of encryption!  What they're being asked to do is roll back iOS so that they won't have to break the encryption.  As they rightly say - and, again, whether you think there's an ulterior motive or not (utterly irrelevant by the way, since Apple happen to be right and you're just someone on the internet) - it sets a dangerous precedent and would do away with any rights to privacy we all currently enjoy.

By the way, if the FBI are asking Apple to do this, that means the NSA can't crack the encryption either - unless you truly believe those two agencies don't cooperate at all!

bayonetbrant

Quote from: Huw the Poo on February 23, 2016, 05:52:51 PMBy the way, if the FBI are asking Apple to do this, that means the NSA can't crack the encryption either - unless you truly believe those two agencies don't cooperate at all!

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mirth

This is strictly about bypassing specific parts of the passcode restrictions. The FBI is asking Apple to write and install a custom version of iOS so that the FBI can brute force the password, gain access to the phone and then decrypt the data.

The reality is that the government can break the encryption, the could even install there own hacked version of the software to bypass the passcode. It would take time and effort, but it could be done

What the government wants it to establish a precedent of a private company providing software versions with backdoors built-in for the government's use.
"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

mirth

The NSA is not going to publicly acknowledge it's capability to break encryption (or lack there of) . But keep in mind that it is what it does and it's damned good at it.
"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

OJsDad

Quote from: mirth on February 23, 2016, 06:08:17 PM
What the government wants it to establish a precedent of a private company providing software versions with backdoors built-in for the government's use.

This is where the US government needs to be very careful.  If Apple is forced to do that for them, then the Chinese and the Russians (and whom ever else) will demand the same backdoors. 
'Here at NASA we all pee the same color.'  Al Harrison from the movie Hidden Figures.

mirth

Quote from: OJsDad on February 23, 2016, 06:33:10 PM
Quote from: mirth on February 23, 2016, 06:08:17 PM
What the government wants it to establish a precedent of a private company providing software versions with backdoors built-in for the government's use.

This is where the US government needs to be very careful.  If Apple is forced to do that for them, then the Chinese and the Russians (and whom ever else) will demand the same backdoors. 

Absolutely right. The implications are very troubling.
"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

OJsDad

I also understand why the FBI and intel agencies want into this particular phone. 
'Here at NASA we all pee the same color.'  Al Harrison from the movie Hidden Figures.

mirth

Quote from: OJsDad on February 23, 2016, 06:38:18 PM
I also understand why the FBI and intel agencies want into this particular phone. 

Completely understand it.
"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

Huw the Poo

Quote from: mirth on February 23, 2016, 06:08:17 PM
What the government wants it to establish a precedent of a private company providing software versions with backdoors built-in for the government's use.

Precisely.  The root of all this is that the US government ideally wants backdoors built into all crypto software.  I won't bother to list the multitude of reasons that's a horrible idea.  Like them or not - I certainly don't - you'd have to be a fool not to back Apple in this.

mirth

Quote from: Huw the Poo on February 24, 2016, 11:51:52 AM
you'd have to be a fool not to back Apple in this.

That's part of what the government is counting on. It's easy to paint Apple as "helping the terrorists".
"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

mirth

"45 minutes of pooping Tribbles being juggled by a drunken Horta would be better than Season 1 of TNG." - SirAndrewD

"you don't look at the mantelpiece when you're poking the fire" - Bawb

"Can't 'un' until you 'pre', son." - Gus

OJsDad

Saw a few clips from the hearings today on this.  FBI says they're asking Apple to do two things;  1)  Disable the function that will cause the iPhone to erase all data after 10 failed logon attempts.  2) Eliminate the wait time between logon attempts.  After those two things, the FBI will be able to crack it in a few days.
'Here at NASA we all pee the same color.'  Al Harrison from the movie Hidden Figures.

bbmike

Yeah, just saw the news. The FBI said Apple could keep the phone, software whatever. They just want the information on the phone. If that's true, Apple needs to comply.
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MetalDog

I'm pretty sure that's what airboy was saying all along.  Apple can get the info from its phone and provide it to the FBI.

Quote from: airboy on February 23, 2016, 05:11:24 PM
Apple itself could decrypt the phone and turn over the records to the Justice Dept. 
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