Germany lifts HARD ban on swastikas in games? Good or bad idea?

[Father Ted]

I'm not sure why some feel the need to argue moral equivalences in order to somehow try to defend the indefensible. 

Well I for one am pretty certain why people do that, but perhaps this thread should be relocated before taking the discussion further...

[stolypin]

Dhingis khan killed 30 Million People sometime on cruler way than the nazis. There is an german pop song "Dhing, dhing, dhingiskahn..." Evryone sing and dance to it. Hitler did not kill much more but only showing a sewastika is forbidden. German stupidi ! When a sewastika is forbidden the german song must be also forbidden.

Let's not trivialize the depth of Nazi cruelty by comparing it to other murderous empires. Germany was the first nation in human history to industrialize genocide and implement a systemic legal scheme of butchering people based on their religion or ethnicity. For that, the German atrocities of 20th century are unique and should never be forgotten. Your attitude, inadvertent or not, is the whole reason why a ban on this imagery was deemed logical in the first place...because these crimes become whitewashed, or otherwise mitigated through the passage of time.

In any event, I agree that the ban does not serve any purpose really, but it is critical that we don't throw away common sense too.

In his 2,400 page "Gulag Archipelago", Alexandr Solzhenitsyn (winner of the Nobel Peace Prize for Literature), clearly demonstrates that the Soviet Union began a "systematic legal scheme of butchering people based on their religion or ethnicity" as early as 1918.  In fact, one of Lenin's earliest decrees was on the establishment of concentration camps -- through which tens of millions would pass (or perish) over the next 40 years.

Yet I have lots of games that freely display the hammer and sickle with no mod needed.

As Solzhenitsyn comments bitterly:  "Hitler's camps made him famous.  No one cares about ours at all."

As someone who admittedly possesses "500 books about the Third Reich and Germany (sic) military in World War Two" in his personal library, I'm not surprised that my point would cruise above your head. Thanks for making my point even clearer though.  :clap: I'm not sure why some feel the need to argue moral equivalences in order to somehow try to defend the indefensible. 

Citing Solzhenitsyn is akin to "defend[ing] the indefensible"?

[Ubercat]

On comparing communism and nazism's death tolls, I find it ironic that some dumb millennial can wear a hammer and sickle shirt and not get a second look, but he'd be lynched for a swastika shirt. (and no, I have no personal interest in wearing either shirt)

You know what's even more ironic? Large swathes of brainwashed lefties would consider Jarhead to be a Nazi himself.   

[Jarhead0331]

On comparing communism and nazism's death tolls, I find it ironic that some dumb millennial can wear a hammer and sickle shirt and not get a second look, but he'd be lynched for a swastika shirt. (and no, I have no personal interest in wearing either shirt)

You know what's even more ironic? Large swathes of brainwashed lefties would consider Jarhead to be a Nazi himself.   

Yup. I've been accused of it. Its almost as comical as Candace Owens being called a white supremacist!

[Gusington]

Those brainwashed lefties have never seen JH's warm, cuddly side. Just above the heavy weapons.

[Destraex]

Genocide, with whatever tech existed at the time. Has been around since the dawn of time I would say. Does not make any regime that does it in any numbers any less evil than another though, no. Any regime that does it is evil. No matter the scale or the target.
The ww2 German acts of genocide hit very close to home for us in the west though. Because they are so recent and close to our western way of life (how did a western country with western ways turn so bad) and because they were so cold and clinical, as jar said, so industrialised. Very well planned and executed.

I have become so used to the nazi symbol not being in games that I almost feel guilty that they are putting it back in. I don't know whether to feel happy that history is being accurately portrayed or sad that the political symbol of an evil regime is being put back in games.
It's going to feel strange to me as where I am we always got censored games by proxy due to the fact that devs for a lot of games decided to release one version for all that was missing the nazi symbology.
But history is history right? If we want our simulators to reflect what aircraft schemes and livery were realistically we must accept that the nazi parties badge will be on our aircraft in particular. Tanks and soldier uniforms are easier as they were generally not present in your face for heer soldier and tank exteriors.

You would not build a model or make a movie without them. But games somehow are much more personal as you are not watching from the outside. You are the persona playing the person that was there. You are acting and wearing the livery. But in the end it is only re-enactment really.

When I first started playing games as a teen I used to feel a bit of guilt or the forbidden fruit sort of thing when I played the germans. Like a betrayal of my own side. It was of course beaten by intellectual and rational thought. When games became advanced graphically enough and developers international enough (most games initially came from america and then britian iirc) we encountered the swasticka ban. Il2 I think was the first game I ever played that had it. I was a little offended at first that history was being denied, like denying the german side wore nazi symbols. But as I said above I am so used to it now. It's going to be strange really.

I used to LAN with a couple of Polish gamers who live here in AU in the early 2000s iirc. We played il2 sturmovik but when I played with them we could absolutely not play the axis. They would only play the Russians that were the other side in il2 at the time. These days though the one I am still in contact with does not care and actually likes playing the Germans more than anything else. Strange how time and exhaustion from sitting so vehemently on one side eventually weakens ones position on the more silly taboos. Unless one is constantly getting re-enforcement from ones immediate peers.

[Ubercat]

As far as WW2 games go, I kind of prefer swastikas when I'm playing the good guys as it's fun to role play fighting evil and squash it out. As the Germans, I hate the generic looking black, white, and red flag. The iron cross is probably the best compromise symbol.

[Father Ted]

On comparing communism and nazism's death tolls, I find it ironic that some dumb millennial can wear a hammer and sickle shirt and not get a second look, but he'd be lynched for a swastika shirt. (and no, I have no personal interest in wearing either shirt)

People have been marching in the US waving swastikas and have not been "lynched". Quelle surprise - the US seems to have a high tolerance for the "correct" type of totalitarian regime.

[Ubercat]

Yeah they do. Check out all the hammers and sickles sported by antifa thugs. The only place a swastika can survive is on some idiots wall in a trailer park somewhere.

[MengJiao]

I never really liked making swastika mods, so maybe now I won't have to anymore.  I don't like having to explain to my girlfriend that I'm obsessed with historical accuracy and that it's just a mod.

  It's odd that the ban applied to games but not to movies.  I wonder why games get this extra layer of inspection?  Is it because they are a new-ish form of media?

[MikeGER]

  Is it because they are a new-ish form of media?

exactly
it was always allowed to use swastikas in art and education. it took just so much time for the people, which where manning those USK decision committees, to accept that video-games are a piece of art.
Always living with the angst of hurting feelings and political correctness and triggering a thing we now call 'shitstorm' but in classic media at that times. 
it was hard to sell to the public that a pixelated Wolfenstein is art. Now with CoD number N and the public has been growing up with ego-shooters all themself the times had changed, finally     

It will not be a total lift of a ban so, just less strict
so if you have let's say a WW II flightsim the symbols will be ok now
if you have a shooter where Allied soldiers shoot at -for whatever reason transformed into zombies horde- Germans, it will be ok too.
Now but if you have a shooter which is let's say themed around the crack down on Warsaw Ghetto Uprising it will get tricky.
Is it just a scenario (scenery/location) of many and the Germans are heavily nerfed while the resistance fighters are buffed it might slip through. But if it is historical correct and you can play the Germans the game will not see the shelves.
But if you could play Ghetto resistance only and it has strong RPG story telling elements (resembling movies based on that historic event), it might be seen as education.

[trailrunner]

On comparing communism and nazism's death tolls, I find it ironic that some dumb millennial can wear a hammer and sickle shirt and not get a second look, but he'd be lynched for a swastika shirt. (and no, I have no personal interest in wearing either shirt)

People have been marching in the US waving swastikas and have not been "lynched". Quelle surprise - the US seems to have a high tolerance for the "correct" type of totalitarian regime.

I live near Washington DC.  Today some Nazis are coming to town to demonstrate.  If it wasn't for the *very* heavy police presence protecting the Nazis, I doubt that they would make it out of town alive.  In fact, it's going to take a lot of police protection to even make into DC.

[Tuna]

I never really liked making swastika mods, so maybe now I won't have to anymore.  I don't like having to explain to my girlfriend that I'm obsessed with historical accuracy and that it's just a mod.

  It's odd that the ban applied to games but not to movies.  I wonder why games get this extra layer of inspection?  Is it because they are a new-ish form of media?

Some scale models had the ban too.. maybe it was where the model manufacturer resided that decided if it was banned or not.

[Greybriar]

I, too, would like to see swastikas in games. It would be a plus for historical accuracy.

[sandman2575]

If it wasn't for the *very* heavy police presence protecting the Nazis, I doubt that they would make it out of town alive.  In fact, it's going to take a lot of police protection to even make into DC.

Give me a break. This isn't the Selma to Montgomery march, where the participants actually did have to fear for their lives. Just ask Congressman John Lewis. These Nazis aren't in danger, though they love to play the victims.  You may possibly recall that it wasn't a Nazi who was killed at the Charlotte white supremacist rally last year. 

I really prefer to keep politics out of this forum, so that's the last I'll say on this. I'm sure my political views are well to the left of many folks here. I appreciate that admirably little of the idiotic political divisiveness that defines much of everything else these days doesn't infect the Grogheads community. And so I generally keep my political views out of things here, knowing that most of the community adheres to that wise rule.

But there's only so much "lefties are idiots and the real intolerant ones" that I can stomach. Some lefties are intolerant, no question. Some have even been known to be idiots  ;)  But spare me the sympathy and concern for the safety of Nazis whose entire ideology is based on racial superiority and racial hatreds, in a word, intolerance.