Steel Division 1944 (by wargame red dragon devs) in game trailer and unit stream

Started by Destraex, March 29, 2017, 07:05:10 PM

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Jarhead0331

Quote from: Nefaro on March 30, 2017, 01:47:06 PM
Quote from: Destraex on March 29, 2017, 07:05:10 PM

This trailer definitely focuses on tanks. But does show infantry running in loose formation with foot synchronisation. Infantry probably get 10% of the air time while tanks get 90%. This game looks like a vehicle only party. Well that may be a little negative. But enjoy the "in engine" trailer.


Infantry were still pretty useful in previous games, especially for the low cost-to-capability in dense terrain, and spotting (which is a great facet of this series).  Oh, and sometimes air mobility although this won't be much of a thing in the new one either.

Infantry was invaluable in the Wargame series. Putting anti-tank infantry units into urban centers, near intersections and choke points and in woods near likely avenues of approach was a critical defensive tactic. I found I was able to save a lot of high value units by using well placed infantry to take and secure strategic points and wear away the enemy heavy and mechanized armor.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


undercovergeek

Yup, a village full of Milan armed troops and forest full of stinger holding guys was an invaluable tactic

And a black hawk full of rangers going around the back was always fun too

Destraex

I am more referring to infantry in red dragon being of very limited utility:
They were primarily used in RD for:

1) Fortifying Towns
2) Hiding in Trees to ambush

The question I have, based on what you have seen so far of SD44, would you ever do what they did in ww2 with your infantry?
For instance would you advance and hold ground other than towns. I would say because their are so many vehicles around and infantry don't seem to take cover properly other than by reaching a building, that infantry will be very exposed in any other type of ground except in the middle of a dense forest.

Normandy would have been fairly dense with vehicles, I grant you that. But even then the ratio of infantry outside of towns in combat would have been higher than I think will be possible in game.

If they are as limited as red dragon infantry it is possible all they will be doing is fortifying buildings and hiding in trees. I doubt we will see the classic fox holes or infantry taking cover to fire from undulating ground. No infantry formations such as loose formation to make them harder to kill. I know capturing buildings was a huge part of ww2 Europe. But buildings are not the be all and end of all of infantry capability in world war 2.

What I want to see is squads/sections (10men) and platoons (30 or so men) taking cover correctly and deploying weapons in cover correctly to give them the best profile for the enemy they are facing. Patrolling and moving forward in formations that don't get them all killed in one enfilade shot. Of course this is not always possible and it's part of the reason why house to house combat was more deadly in ww2 for infantry than more open combat in forests and rural areas.... however in Eugen games infantry tend to be very vulnerable in anything but buildings. That is just my experience, considering I saw tanks assault through heavy wooded areas.

I also hope they have both dense impassible for vehicles forest and other densities of forest to give infantry more cover.

Also the fact that when Eugen has open terrain, generally it is exactly that. A flat football field freshly mowed and perfectly level. Infantry cannot play against vehicles or even other infantry in this terrain. I don't want eugen to magically make line infantry invisible all the time either.

I would like it if as infantry advanced in open ground they were in line abreast, if they are assaulting they should be bounding and shooting as they do it and if they get fired upon enough they could go to ground individually behind cover. That cover in open ground can be shell holes, hay stacks, boulders, slight crests etc. There is so much more cover than just buildings for infantry. Consider though that in the bocage farmland their would have been open fields well tilled and flat, but that hedges in that country would block LOS and that bocage was far more rare in the British area. The British typically had no such cover and were thus using more massed brute force advance tactics.

Infantry vs infantry fights in open terrain should NOT be rare, but I bet they will be. Because there will be so many vehicles that it will be like modern warfare.

I don't think the ratio of vehicles to infantry was very high in ww2. In normandy though it probably was higher than average. Meaning more infantry on infantry assaults? Maybe that was eastern front more because late war I guess the western front would have been more highly mechanised.

Defensively infantry would have been very spread out... depending on their total numbers of course. But if you put one squad in a town. I would not expect them to bunch together in one room.

Which brings me to smoke grenades and their deployment by infantry?

Some pics for educational purposes from my Osprey Elite World War II infantry tactics squad and platoon. By Dr Stephen Bull and Illustrated by Peter Dennis.


I don't think we will see an advance such as this:


or this:
"They only asked the Light Brigade to do it once"

Jarhead0331

^I think the game you are looking for is on the platoon or company level. I wouldn't expect to see those kinds of infantry combat details in a game focusing in at the Division level, although it would certainly be awesome.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


MengJiao

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 30, 2017, 06:45:19 PM
^I think the game you are looking for is on the platoon or company level. I wouldn't expect to see those kinds of infantry combat details in a game focusing in at the Division level, although it would certainly be awesome.

CM Normandy  covers these things pretty well.  And of course -- my current favorite board games -- Grand Tactical Series...The Greatest Day especially (since it covers Normandy) covers this sort of thing reasonably well.  You don't see smoke, but you do see bocage and barrages and so on.

acctingman

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 30, 2017, 06:45:19 PM
^I think the game you are looking for is on the platoon or company level. I wouldn't expect to see those kinds of infantry combat details in a game focusing in at the Division level, although it would certainly be awesome.

If there is a game out there like that, which one is it?? Still being new to the gaming genre (not the topic) I'm still looking for a game like that (not names CMx2  :uglystupid2:)

fabius

Quote from: acctingman on March 30, 2017, 07:38:44 PM
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 30, 2017, 06:45:19 PM
^I think the game you are looking for is on the platoon or company level. I wouldn't expect to see those kinds of infantry combat details in a game focusing in at the Division level, although it would certainly be awesome.

If there is a game out there like that, which one is it?? Still being new to the gaming genre (not the topic) I'm still looking for a game like that (not names CMx2  :uglystupid2:)

Graviteam Tactics ?

undercovergeek

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 30, 2017, 06:45:19 PM
^I think the game you are looking for is on the platoon or company level. I wouldn't expect to see those kinds of infantry combat details in a game focusing in at the Division level, although it would certainly be awesome.

+1

I don't know if there's a mod for men of war to allow you to have this control over 600 individual men but the war game series has never been this

Destraex

It must be coop and it must be real time. Not much fits that bill other than COH and MOW.
I would even go as far to say that apart from aircraft SD44 is almost the same scale as coh and mow.
"They only asked the Light Brigade to do it once"

fabius

Yesterday's Dev vs AI

For me this is looking very good, with what looks like improvements on RD at the tactical level.


RyanE

Quote from: Destraex on March 31, 2017, 04:46:21 AM
It must be coop and it must be real time. Not much fits that bill other than COH and MOW.
I would even go as far to say that apart from aircraft SD44 is almost the same scale as coh and mow.

Really?  I played Red Dragon a little and I don't think I could control individual soldiers or their weapons.  I might be mistaken though.  I played it only a short time.

Destraex

You are correct. I don't want to control individual soldiers. Just have squads survivable and take cover properly as well as moving and acting naturally.
"They only asked the Light Brigade to do it once"

RyanE

But aren't the ranges of weapons purposely borked in MoW for playability.  That was why I never really liked them.

undercovergeek

That level of detail isn't provided on a war game map though, buildings, forest, woods - yes

Line of sight - yes

But "are we all hiding behind these sandbags properly" - no

I'm not saying war game is fast, it isn't, but by the time you've zoomed in to see if all the little fellas are taking cover properly, and this squad, and that squad and that one over there you'll have been tanked, artyed and bombed out of that position anyway and you've lost the zone

Destraex

Watching this video of steel division multiplayer and very happy to see that a lone tank moving forward, because it cannot see much, does not affect the front line much other than to isolate itself in a small pocket that is very vulnerable to the SD44 "cut units off and force them to surrender" mechanic. This is a great improvement on other games where you can send lone tanks up and their morale and isolation does not affect them in the least.


You can see a person that moved their flame tank up far into enemy territory, because it cannot see far only has a tiny slither of corridor "secured", where a low end Ostruppen unit to the left of it can see across a field and has completely secured a large wide tract of the front on it's own.

"They only asked the Light Brigade to do it once"