Polaris Sector - another new space 4x

Started by RedArgo, November 02, 2015, 04:48:47 PM

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Barthheart

Quote from: sandman2575 on March 23, 2016, 07:38:28 AM
..... And unfortunately it features what for me is the 4X kiss of death: the "colonize every world you see as quickly as possible" nonsense that defines about 99% of the games in this genre....

But..... isn't that what eXpand means in 4X.....  ???

ghostryder

Wow game just released and some one is modding already (since beta). Star Wars!!!

Wouldn't it be nice we got a 4x game with races good enough the first mods out weren't to replace them? there seems to be an industry wide laziness--there's no imagination- it's copy, paste, get paycheck, repeat and rinse.

Paradox seems to be the only developer in decades bringing something new to the table.

sandman2575

Quote from: Barthheart on March 23, 2016, 07:41:28 AM
But..... isn't that what eXpand means in 4X.....  ???

Unfortunately I agree it's what most 4X games assume expansion should mean. I just don't find this fun, personally -- mindless rushing to expand everywhere lest you get fenced in. I'd much rather build a 'vertical' empire than a horizontal one -- investing heavily in a few systems rather than just sending colony ships out everywhere. Polaris Sector sounds particularly bad in this respect -- with few penalties for quick expansion.

Basically there's a lot about space 4X games that I find very tiresome at this point. I've posted many times on this subject, but it just amazes me how little original thinking there is, and how much Sid Meier's template for Civilization -- a game, what, now almost 30 years old? -- still dominates this genre of strategy game. I'm looking forward to Stallaris but I'm not hugely confident it's going to break out of the Sid Meier mold in a radical way.

Distant Worlds is, to me, still the gold standard in space 4X. Polaris Sector really just sounds like more of the same...

Freyland

Quote from: ghostryder on March 23, 2016, 07:49:27 AM
Wow game just released and some one is modding already (since beta). Star Wars!!!

Wouldn't it be nice we got a 4x game with races good enough the first mods out weren't to replace them? there seems to be an industry wide laziness--there's no imagination- it's copy, paste, get paycheck, repeat and rinse.

Paradox seems to be the only developer in decades bringing something new to the table.

Um, maybe they just like playing Star Wars?

Jarhead0331

With respect to the issue of "colonize every planet as fast as possible...", have you looked at MOO3? MOO3 has a very detailed planetary rating system, where factors such as gravity, fertility, planetary hazards, etc. are all used to calculate the cost and effort associated with colonization. Sometimes colonizing a world is just too expensive to make it worthwhile. I avoid colonizing every planet in my MOO3 games specifically because of the cost vs. benefit analysis.

Sword of the Stars I and II also model the cost of colonizing harsh worlds.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


Jarhead0331

#50
Quote from: Freyland on March 23, 2016, 08:32:32 AM
Quote from: ghostryder on March 23, 2016, 07:49:27 AM
Wow game just released and some one is modding already (since beta). Star Wars!!!

Wouldn't it be nice we got a 4x game with races good enough the first mods out weren't to replace them? there seems to be an industry wide laziness--there's no imagination- it's copy, paste, get paycheck, repeat and rinse.

Paradox seems to be the only developer in decades bringing something new to the table.
Um, maybe they just like playing Star Wars?

Could be...but the races in Polaris Sector do suck. Very cartoonish and typical. "Cat" race, "bird race", "reptilian race", etc. Even the humans look entirely uninteresting. The human avatar literally looks like Bernie Sanders, circa 1983. This is one area where a developer could really make great strides towards increased immersion and wonder. Surprised they almost always drop the ball here.

I'm impressed with the races present in the indie game Pocket Space Empire. At least aesthetically, they all look very different, very alien, and very cool.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


sandman2575

Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 23, 2016, 08:34:20 AM
With respect to the issue of "colonize every planet as fast as possible...", have you looked at MOO3? MOO3 has a very detailed planetary rating system, where factors such as gravity, fertility, planetary hazards, etc. are all used to calculate the cost and effort associated with colonization. Sometimes colonizing a world is just too expensive to make it worthwhile. I avoid colonizing every planet in my MOO3 games specifically because of the cost vs. benefit analysis.

Sword of the Stars I and II also model the cost of colonizing harsh worlds.

I keep meaning to give MOO3 a try. I should fire up some of your Let's Play vids to inspire me. Pretty sure I have the Tropical mod files tucked away somewhere on the pc...

Like you (if I recall correctly), I think SOTS II is a highly underrated game, despite its well-documented flaws. I never really cottoned on to SOTS, but have poured many hours into the sequel (which is pretty much the reverse of how most people have done it).  I do very much like the deliberate pace of colonization in SOTSII, where you have to take things like climate hazard and terraforming into consideration, and it isn't just a mad rush to colonize everywhere, like in Gal Civ, Endless Space, Star Ruler, etc. etc.

sandman2575

Not to sidetrack, but more one re: MOO3 -- Jarhead, I think you recently said patching is easy but I remember I bookmarked this thread a while back, which details a 10-step process that I do recall being pretty intensive:  It's Solops' post, #35

http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=6576.30

Is this info obsolete? Or is this really what you have to do to get modded MOO3 up and running?

Jarhead0331

^its not nearly as bad as Solops makes it sound (probably inadvertently). I don't think all of those steps are necessary. I recently reinstalled on my new rig and it took me all of 3 minutes, and I did it from memory. I didn't even look at any guideline of steps.

Its worth it. MOO3 is a great game.

With respect to SOTS, I like both I and II, and agree that they are underrated. SOTS I took me a long while to warm up to. I never gave it the chance it deserved. SOTS II got off to a very rocky start. Not unlike MOO3, it was released and then destroyed by fans of the series and critics, alike. It was admittedly buggy and incomplete. But the developer did a solid, stuck by it and patched it into a fantastic game...unfortunately, by then it had been abandoned by the publisher and the damage had already been done. It will always have a place on my hard drive.
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


ghostryder

Could be...but the races in Polaris Sector do suck. Very cartoonish and typical. "Cat" race, "bird race", "reptilian race", etc. Even the humans look entirely uninteresting. The human avatar literally looks like Bernie Sanders, circa 1983. This is one area where a developer could really make great strides towards increased immersion and wonder. Surprised they almost always drop the ball here.

I'm impressed with the races present in the indie game Pocket Space Empire. At least aesthetically, they all look very different, very alien, and very cool.


Good post JH :smitten:

Lore is Everything! You need to be pulled into the World--and that starts with the races within the world. And unfortunately here-It's Bugs Bunny-and the only thing that seperates Bugs from Daffy is a few stat points. No ethics, religions, and even governments--which Sid has vanguished years ago- are again reduced to a few stat points. You cannot even mod in an interesting race because the game doesn't support anything except--"likes Terran planet, has slow research and high reproduction". There isn't enough even to model "motive".

Star Wars/Star Trek works not because Vulcans have pointed ears and only mate every seven years--but because there's adventure and a premise in every movie or episode. 4x games are not adventure games so such races leaves the player bored after he repeats the mechanics over and over again, the only carrot on a stick is yet another Barren World or Starlane he's already experienced a zillion times over. Worse, most of these games have totally removed anything that may keep you engaged like Tactical combat. Here for example just build a fleet of carriers with 200 fights and you win automatically because nothing can touch 200 fighters- a relatively early game tech no less.

Ground combat could be a Panzer corps Affair-modeling at least a little of how Epic an challenge such would be in real life--but none do. Real life space flight is a very expensive and dangerous area yet these games allow you to transverse galaxies with nary a system failure let alone disasterous Apollo events- just a couple of things that could be added--instead of copy/paste like it's the next FPS.

solops

#55
Quote from: Jarhead0331 on March 23, 2016, 09:35:17 AM
^its not nearly as bad as Solops makes it sound (probably inadvertently). I don't think all of those steps are necessary. I recently reinstalled on my new rig and it took me all of 3 minutes, and I did it from memory. I didn't even look at any guideline of steps.

Its worth it. MOO3 is a great game.

With respect to SOTS, I like both I and II, and agree that they are underrated. SOTS I took me a long while to warm up to. I never gave it the chance it deserved. SOTS II got off to a very rocky start. Not unlike MOO3, it was released and then destroyed by fans of the series and critics, alike. It was admittedly buggy and incomplete. But the developer did a solid, stuck by it and patched it into a fantastic game...unfortunately, by then it had been abandoned by the publisher and the damage had already been done. It will always have a place on my hard drive.

+1 on SOTS2 and MOO3.

I am seeing potential in Polaris Sector. Have not played enough for a firm decision.  I read the Devs have already made some additions in their first patch.
"I could have conquered Europe, all of it, but I had women in my life." - King Henry II of England
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Freyland

Jarhead, I have read concerns re: SOTS2 that the AI is still not very good.  Would you agree with that?  I never could wrap my head around the missions idea, and with all the (ongoing) negative feedback, I just decided it probably wasn't worth it.  Since I adore SOTS1, I would love to have a change of heart.

Jarhead0331

#57
Quote from: Freyland on March 23, 2016, 10:09:46 AM
Jarhead, I have read concerns re: SOTS2 that the AI is still not very good.  Would you agree with that?  I never could wrap my head around the missions idea, and with all the (ongoing) negative feedback, I just decided it probably wasn't worth it.  Since I adore SOTS1, I would love to have a change of heart.

i may be the wrong guy to query about AI. I like an AI that gives a good challenge and certainly appreciate an AI that takes actions that are recognizable as being taken for some defined goal or gain. However, I don't like games where the AI is too difficult to defeat. When it crosses an invisible line of too challenging, it takes away from my enjoyment of the game. I like an AI that puts up a fight, but I want to win in the end. Just my personal preference.

I have not played SOTS II in quite a great bit of time. However, I do recall the AI being a challenge, but not crossing that threshold of too challenging. I mean, they expand, they defend and attack. But I am hard pressed to provide specific examples. Talking about it is making me want to jump back into it, so maybe I'll fire it up, play around and get back to you.

As far as the mission system, it never really bothered me, and I never understood all the hate it received. I mean, I think it adds immersion. Its just like deploying a carrier task force today. You wouldn't send a fleet into the South China Sea without a clearly defined mission and set of goals. Likewise, you wouldn't send a fleet to a far flung planet with no purpose or rationale. The mission types are diverse enough to facilitate most any goal a player could think of. Exploration, relocation, colonization, strike, invasion, patrol, interdiction, etc. Its just not something that detracted from my enjoyment of the game. 
Grogheads Uber Alles
Semper Grog
"No beast is more alpha than JH." Gusington, 10/23/18


Anguille

#58
I agree. I never liked the rushing. Horizon has it's own way of dealing with it as the difference in the quality of planets can be very big. The planets allowing more than 15 structures are hugely important and you can win a game by controlling just 5 of them if they are fully developped.

republic

#59
Polaris Sector, in my mind, is very much a modern adaptation of Imperium Galactica II Pax Imperia - Imminent Domain.  (Edit:  I'm old and forget things)

I'm only a couple hours in, but I can see it being a fun faster paced 4x game with a few minor tweaks.  I would like to see automated colonization where I could just click "colonize this" and a ship would automatically be built, launch, and colonize.  It would really help things move along.  Right now you have to build the ship, then manually load colonists, then get there, then click colonize.  Colonization and population movement could be automated.

Exploration is interesting, I've found several components to things that will build something bigger (once I find all the pieces).

The most fun part of the game is designing ships and flinging them at the AI.  The quicker they can get us into that, the more fun it will be.

I do wish they'd steal the planetary assault from Imperium Galactica II Pax Imperia.  It'd be fun to fight past a defending fleet to attack planets while facing fire from planetary based defenses.   Man....IG2 Pax Imperia was such a fun game...