Barcelona Fighting

airboy · October 01, 2017, 11:30:38 PM

The central government of Spain is using force to prevent a vote on Catalonian Independence. Some of this strife dates back to the Spanish Civil War.

Perhaps unfortunately, we are going to Barcelona in less than three weeks. I really hope it has settled down by then.

bayonetbrant · October 02, 2017, 05:00:49 AM

Low turnout, high result

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41463719

joram · October 02, 2017, 07:27:59 AM

I don't really understand it and a Catalonian friend didn't really illuminate it for me either. I understand everyone wants to feel unique and special but there's good reasons such as economy and security they should stay together.

Anyway, enjoy Barcelona. It's a beautiful city with lots of food and culture and beaches if that's your thing!

Gusington · October 02, 2017, 08:36:13 AM

Where is the EU now?

BanzaiCat · October 02, 2017, 08:39:29 AM

Quote from: Gusington on October 02, 2017, 08:36:13 AM
Where is the EU now?

Probably hiding and pretending there's no controversy.

Gusington · October 02, 2017, 09:02:38 AM

Sounds legit.

Sir Slash · October 02, 2017, 11:13:08 AM

Be safe Airboy.

undercovergeek · October 02, 2017, 07:15:06 PM

Quote from: joram on October 02, 2017, 07:27:59 AM
I don't really understand it and a Catalonian friend didn't really illuminate it for me either. I understand everyone wants to feel unique and special but there's good reasons such as economy and security they should stay together.

Anyway, enjoy Barcelona. It's a beautiful city with lots of food and culture and beaches if that's your thing!

I didn't much until there was a brief breakdown in the news today - I'm not going to quote percentages because I can't remember but Catalonia produces a big ass chunk of Spain's wealth and I think busy Catalonians are pissed off with lazy unproductive workers in Madrid who are watching Catalonia earn it and then enjoying the rewards without pulling their weight and they've had enough

joram · October 02, 2017, 08:04:07 PM

Sounds like California!

Gusington · October 03, 2017, 07:50:13 AM

The Wife spent a semester in Barcelona and said that city, as well as a big chunk of Catalonia, is exactly like Geek describes above. She then compared the relationship to New York City and the rest of New York State...a financial powerhouse that is constantly being tapped for revenue by the bigger government and at the same time also sucks up a vast amount of resources too. I guess it work both ways.

Sir Slash · October 03, 2017, 08:53:38 AM

The Spanish National Police look very 'Brown-Shirt-ish' in their actions. I saw the local police confronting them to protect local citizens. This could get real ugly, real fast I'm thinking. And hoping not.

Gusington · October 03, 2017, 10:04:00 AM

The Catalonian Fire Service also tried to stop the Spanish National Police from busting heads at polling places. Catalonia also has its own police, which stood by and would not act against their own. Lot of pictures of Catalonians hugging and thanking them.

joram · October 04, 2017, 07:43:42 AM

Is Spain going to fall apart? A civil war perhaps? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/catalonia-declare-independence-within-days-after-spanish-king-s-tv-n807346

Even if the vote was 90% in favor of secession and even if generally reflective of the overall populace, I would have to imagine that something so drastic would require each and every citizen to participate to be valid.

bayonetbrant · October 04, 2017, 08:15:58 AM

Quote from: joram on October 04, 2017, 07:43:42 AM
Is Spain going to fall apart? A civil war perhaps? https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/catalonia-declare-independence-within-days-after-spanish-king-s-tv-n807346

Even if the vote was 90% in favor of secession and even if generally reflective of the overall populace, I would have to imagine that something so drastic would require each and every citizen to participate to be valid.

I think it would depend on whether or not the citizens are OK with representatives making decisions for them, or enforce a requirement of direct democracy.
Moreover, if you want a legit election (which the Spanish authorities clearly don't then you have to get rid of the national police voter suppression/intimidation and surreptitious sneaking-ballot-boxes-out-the-back-door intrigue to ensure the integrity of any referendum. Right now, there's now externally-auditable chain of custody for many of those ballot boxes, and when the outcome is suspiciously lopsided in favor of the outcome sought by those holding the referendum, that chain of custody becomes even more critical.

Gusington · October 04, 2017, 08:21:29 AM

Holy crap. Does Catalonia have enough power over it's own infrastructure to make this a reality? I am going to guess that many countries will not recognize Catalonia for fear of their own 'restive' provinces following suit.

Not sure what the Spanish government was thinking with a harsh crack down. That was probably the most unwise move they could have made. If the vote was truly illegal then they should have just ignored it and brushed it aside. Now they have added a lot of fuel to the fire.