GrogHeads Forum

After Action Reports => Tabletop AARs => Topic started by: MengJiao on June 13, 2017, 08:03:38 PM

Title: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on June 13, 2017, 08:03:38 PM

  The 49th West Riding takes aim at the boundary between Panzer Lehr and the 12th SS Panzer Division.  This is the big scenario that the game is built around.  The Germans don't start out with much, but both sides have a lot of flexibility in bringing in reinforcements.

  The image shows the joinery where the two panzer divisions ajoin in the middle of Fontenay-le-Presnel.  The 2nd army's plan is for the 49th to attack for one day and 1) clear the high ground on the flank of the advance planned for VIII Corps' advance in Operation Epsom 2) draw in German reserves that would otherwise oppose Epsom.  Historically, the 49th's attack succeeded in accomplishing both objectives, though took a day longer to take the high ground than planned since the objective of drawing in German reserves succeeded all too well.

Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: bayonetbrant on June 14, 2017, 06:05:24 AM
sometimes you draw in the reserves and then wonder what the hell you got yourself into
Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: JudgeDredd on June 14, 2017, 06:07:34 AM
aaaaargh...clip those counters  ;D
Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on June 14, 2017, 03:56:00 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 14, 2017, 06:07:34 AM
aaaaargh...clip those counters  ;D

  I know.  I'm waiting for a used and pre-clipped game to turn up on Ebay.  Cheap, clipped fully sat-upon.  Meanwhile there may be
a Vassal option that gives clipped counters.
Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on June 14, 2017, 05:36:31 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 14, 2017, 06:05:24 AM
sometimes you draw in the reserves and then wonder what the hell you got yourself into

   No reserves showing up yet.  As historically, the 49th follows a massive barrage through the fog and gains a foothold in the town:

Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on June 15, 2017, 06:29:47 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on June 14, 2017, 05:36:31 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 14, 2017, 06:05:24 AM
sometimes you draw in the reserves and then wonder what the hell you got yourself into

   No reserves showing up yet.  As historically, the 49th follows a massive barrage through the fog and gains a foothold in the town:

   The British infantry works well when making assaults out of the fog and not being hit by any kind of ranged or artillery fire.  The 49th pushes across two bridges over the Bordel -- which I didn't expect -- and takes one Strongpoint.  That was all fairly bloody, but infantry tend to recover strength easier than other units in this game so now I think infantry might work sometimes pretty well in this game.  Of course now the fog is lifting and the Germans may win an automatic victory by inflicting massive losses on the relatively exposed British infantry.  So I guess it all evens out.

    Here is the end of Turn 4 (which makes it 10am and the fog is lifting):

Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on June 18, 2017, 10:27:04 PM
As a side note, continuing the comparison of GTS and OpDAuntless, on the left are the 15 counters representing a British mechanized battalion in OpDAuntless.  On the right are the five units of a mechanized battalion from GTS.  OpDaunt has 3 inf companies and their Half-tracks along with AT guns, mortars and MGs as well as 3 scout platoons.  GTS has 4 infantry companies (halftracks on the other side) and a reasonable AT gun unit:
Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: Silent Disapproval Robot on June 19, 2017, 07:34:34 AM
I've been fiddling with this game and it's giving me a headache.  Lots and lots of fiddly little rules and rules exceptions to try and keep in mind.  German armour seems ridiculously powerful, especially if you use the fire control optional rules.  Panzer IVs feel like Tigers, the way they chew up Shermans.
Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on June 19, 2017, 06:07:12 PM
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on June 19, 2017, 07:34:34 AM
I've been fiddling with this game and it's giving me a headache.  Lots and lots of fiddly little rules and rules exceptions to try and keep in mind.  German armour seems ridiculously powerful, especially if you use the fire control optional rules.  Panzer IVs feel like Tigers, the way they chew up Shermans.

  Shermans are pretty fragile in the system.  I just had three get shot up just supporting some attacks.  Since its my first run-through of the big scenario, I'm not sure how bad that is.  Anyway I've avoided as many optional rules as possible since there's plenty of dice-rolling in the game already, not to mention lots of fiddly stuff.  On the other hand, where else would you ever see a British mech bn represented by 15 units?  And the carrier platoon rules are pretty neat (if fiddly).  I kind of like the game -- its very good for solitaire since I have no idea what is going on and there are all kinds of options in terms of buying reinforcements. 
Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on June 20, 2017, 09:00:41 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on June 19, 2017, 06:07:12 PM
Quote from: Silent Disapproval Robot on June 19, 2017, 07:34:34 AM
I've been fiddling with this game and it's giving me a headache.  Lots and lots of fiddly little rules and rules exceptions to try and keep in mind.  German armour seems ridiculously powerful, especially if you use the fire control optional rules.  Panzer IVs feel like Tigers, the way they chew up Shermans.

  Shermans are pretty fragile in the system.  I just had three get shot up just supporting some attacks.  Since its my first run-through of the big scenario, I'm not sure how bad that is.  Anyway I've avoided as many optional rules as possible since there's plenty of dice-rolling in the game already, not to mention lots of fiddly stuff.  On the other hand, where else would you ever see a British mech bn represented by 15 units?  And the carrier platoon rules are pretty neat (if fiddly).  I kind of like the game -- its very good for solitaire since I have no idea what is going on and there are all kinds of options in terms of buying reinforcements.

  It's a bit after 1pm, and after losing 8 steps of Shermans (= about 16 and at this stage of the war about 4 would have brewed up spectacularly) and lots of troops and carriers and halftacks and machine guns, the 49th (West Riding) is very close to completely blowing through Panzer Lehr.  It's still 3 turns until the divisional boundary can shift, huge reinforcements and KG Wunsche can turn up.  It's the German turn, so there are lots of things they can do: bring in more PzLehr formations, counter-attack, shorten their front (there's a little stream that will help with that).  Still, at the moment, the 49th is very close to breaking clean through:

Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: bayonetbrant on June 21, 2017, 05:22:05 AM
what are those 2 platoons of German engineers trying to do up there?
Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on June 21, 2017, 08:18:53 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 21, 2017, 05:22:05 AM
what are those 2 platoons of German engineers trying to do up there?

  The yellow box gives them column a shift against assaults (specialized close range weapons used by engineers apparently).  By this stage of the game, the 49th is bringing in its own yellow-shift assault units to clean up the strongpoints and that strongpoint  (La ferme de la Bijude) is the last one preventing the 49th from running wild in Panzer LehrLand.  Since the position is otherwise pretty weak, I put both the engineers in there.  They also have okay close range AT for platoons.  It also seemed like a safe place to put them in case the Germans need to start counter-attacking and recapturing strong points ( they are also good at attacking in assaults).
Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on June 25, 2017, 09:36:10 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on June 21, 2017, 08:18:53 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 21, 2017, 05:22:05 AM
what are those 2 platoons of German engineers trying to do up there?

  The yellow box gives them column a shift against assaults (specialized close range weapons used by engineers apparently).  By this stage of the game, the 49th is bringing in its own yellow-shift assault units to clean up the strongpoints and that strongpoint  (La ferme de la Bijude) is the last one preventing the 49th from running wild in Panzer LehrLand.  Since the position is otherwise pretty weak, I put both the engineers in there.  They also have okay close range AT for platoons.  It also seemed like a safe place to put them in case the Germans need to start counter-attacking and recapturing strong points ( they are also good at attacking in assaults).

  And they held on.    Here's the situation at about 2pm:

Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on June 26, 2017, 06:16:31 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on June 25, 2017, 09:36:10 PM

  And they held on.    Here's the situation at about 2pm:

  4pm -- British move starts and they put up air recon.  The circled red 14 is a reminder that that asset will be gone when Epsom starts on turn 14.
It's turn 9 and after 12 hours of battle, things are not going very well for either side: Panzer Lehr is barely holding on and the 49th is nowhere near its main objectives:

Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on June 27, 2017, 04:31:53 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on June 26, 2017, 06:16:31 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on June 25, 2017, 09:36:10 PM

  And they held on.    Here's the situation at about 2pm:

  4pm -- British move starts and they put up air recon.  The circled red 14 is a reminder that that asset will be gone when Epsom starts on turn 14.
It's turn 9 and after 12 hours of battle, things are not going very well for either side: Panzer Lehr is barely holding on and the 49th is nowhere near its main objectives:

  Approaching 5:30 -- the 49th is slowing down and the 192 Bn of the 21st Pz has arrived.  Next turn KG Wunch will show up and that should make life very hard for the 49th.  And in a few more turns the 49th:
a) loses most of its Army level support as Epsom kicks off just to the east
b) is late to take its objectives around Ruaray
c) will face all the German Army-level reserves that it has drawn in on itself

So things look as grim in the game as they did for the 49th historically.
Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on June 27, 2017, 08:39:39 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on June 27, 2017, 04:31:53 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on June 26, 2017, 06:16:31 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on June 25, 2017, 09:36:10 PM

  And they held on.    Here's the situation at about 2pm:

  4pm -- British move starts and they put up air recon.  The circled red 14 is a reminder that that asset will be gone when Epsom starts on turn 14.
It's turn 9 and after 12 hours of battle, things are not going very well for either side: Panzer Lehr is barely holding on and the 49th is nowhere near its main objectives:

  Approaching 5:30 -- the 49th is slowing down and the 192 Bn of the 21st Pz has arrived.  Next turn KG Wunch will show up and that should make life very hard for the 49th.  And in a few more turns the 49th:
a) loses most of its Army level support as Epsom kicks off just to the east
b) is late to take its objectives around Ruaray
c) will face all the German Army-level reserves that it has drawn in on itself

So things look as grim in the game as they did for the 49th historically.

  Or even worse.  A late day thrust on the British left gets chewed up by a massive counter-attack heavy in Panthers.  One British Infantry battalion is out of action for a while and 7 Sherman and 4 Panther steps are wrecked:

Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on July 05, 2017, 07:20:49 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on June 27, 2017, 08:39:39 PM


  Or even worse.  A late day thrust on the British left gets chewed up by a massive counter-attack heavy in Panthers.  One British Infantry battalion is out of action for a while and 7 Sherman and 4 Panther steps are wrecked:

  But life goes on and at dusk, the 49th blows a kilometer-wide hole in the German lines right at the carefully-placed divisional boundary.  The Germans can probably fix that up and the location of the boundary should make it easier.  Overall, it looks like the 49th is going to lose.  The game is all about points and in points...well in transport alone they are so far down that the German division boundary violations are of little importance:

Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on July 11, 2017, 05:19:12 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on July 05, 2017, 07:20:49 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on June 27, 2017, 08:39:39 PM


  Or even worse.  A late day thrust on the British left gets chewed up by a massive counter-attack heavy in Panthers.  One British Infantry battalion is out of action for a while and 7 Sherman and 4 Panther steps are wrecked:

  But life goes on and at dusk, the 49th blows a kilometer-wide hole in the German lines right at the carefully-placed divisional boundary.  The Germans can probably fix that up and the location of the boundary should make it easier.  Overall, it looks like the 49th is going to lose.  The game is all about points and in points...well in transport alone they are so far down that the German division boundary violations are of little importance:

  Sunrise June 26 -- the 49th is still a kilometer or so short of Rauray (as happened historically) and has lost another 20 or so Shermans (five or so of which would still be burning as the sun rose).  The Germans are losing ground, but not very fast and their armored losses are somewhat less than those of the British (not counting 5 or 10 halftracks which would make their armored losses slightly greater than those of their foes).  According to the scenario, the 49th could now declare an increase in effort and give the Germans 9 points to use in various ways.  The increase in effort gives the 49th another infantry battalion, but since they would just be a big target I'm not going to increase the effort and anyway, I just spent all the 49th's reinforcement points on 2 squadrons of Shermans, which now puts them about 20 Shermans ahead despite their 20 Sherman losses.  So the 49th still has some hope of victory (ie in game terms doing at least slightly better than the 49th actually did).
Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on July 18, 2017, 06:42:55 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on July 11, 2017, 05:19:12 PM
  So the 49th still has some hope of victory (ie in game terms doing at least slightly better than the 49th actually did).

  8:30 am:  The British pull the recon asset and are in a good position to take some more ground as the 12th SS begins to withdraw its armor in response to Epsom.
Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: bayonetbrant on July 18, 2017, 07:00:31 PM
looks like an inevitable tide of Brits crashing on the SS rocks
Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on July 18, 2017, 09:05:47 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on July 18, 2017, 07:00:31 PM
looks like an inevitable tide of Brits crashing on the SS rocks

  Yeah.  The whole Normandy thing is kind of hard to imagine, but this game helps a bit.  One thing I did modify was the rule that armor is immune to regular combat -- which is only functional if there is a separate "capture isolated tanks without fuel or other minor problems" phase and the game has too many cranky details as it is.  So tanks fight like regular formations (in my version) and can take loses (optionally) and be forced to retreat etc,  I think this actually helps the Germans hold their line more as they did historically with small groups of tanks backing up a more active infantry defense.
  I may work out some other angles on making this game more functional.  I think it is over-fitted to some misleading data and overemphasizes certain types of information over more basic aspects of simple reality such as the fact that tanks need fuel and really don't do well all by themselves in dense, muddy farmland full of small fields, villages and orchards.
  Historically, the 49th pushed on to its objectives and held off the attacks of 5 SS Panzer Divisions (1st SS LSAF, 2nd Das Reich, 9th Cindy Lauper and 10th and 12th) so while the game is interesting -- I don't find a lot of it very convincing.
Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on July 21, 2017, 05:10:12 AM
Quote from: MengJiao on July 18, 2017, 09:05:47 PM
Quote from: bayonetbrant on July 18, 2017, 07:00:31 PM
looks like an inevitable tide of Brits crashing on the SS rocks

  Yeah.  The whole Normandy thing is kind of hard to imagine, but this game helps a bit.

  1pm, June 26, rain.  No "mud" until 2:30.  The 49th is stuck about a kilometer short of Rauray with Tigers and Panthers lined up to keep them that from getting up the hill.   The rain and mud might help the 49th at this point since German armored range and movement are slightly reduced.  For the moment the 49th's biggest concern is probably on the west (which isn't quite in this image) where a German assault has almost isolated one British thrust.  I rechecked the victory conditions and the 49th is a bit ahead due to having taken Tessel Wood somewhat earlier than happened historically.
Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: mirth on July 21, 2017, 05:26:16 AM
Quote from: MengJiao on July 18, 2017, 09:05:47 PM
I may work out some other angles on making this game more functional.  I think it is over-fitted to some misleading data and overemphasizes certain types of information over more basic aspects of simple reality such as the fact that tanks need fuel and really don't do well all by themselves in dense, muddy farmland full of small fields, villages and orchards.

I'd have to play it a lot more before I reached that conclusion. The guy put a ton of research into the game and the mechanics are based off that meticulous research (rightly or wrongly).

I'm trying to think back on when I played this (it was about a year ago). My buddy and I played multiple scenarios over a marathon 3-day weekend. The game is almost relentless in its 'cranky details' as you nicely put it. The one thing I remember clearly is that the Germans, when dug in with a mix of infantry and AFV /AT support, were incredibly difficult for the Brits to overcome. I played German most of that weekend and I lost most of the games, but there was one city assault scenario were I smacked the Brits around pretty good and sent them cryin for momma.

I've never had a game feel like work to play more than this one. The detail of the rules is like nothing else I've ever seen in a game. It's more like a research project. And I'm not knocking the game. It's amazing and I had fun playing it. I think you'd almost have to adopt it as way of life to really learn to play it well.

I've really enjoyed following this AAR. Almost makes me want to take another go at the game.  :crazy2:
Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on July 21, 2017, 07:16:49 PM
Quote from: mirth on July 21, 2017, 05:26:16 AM
Quote from: MengJiao on July 18, 2017, 09:05:47 PM
I may work out some other angles on making this game more functional.  I think it is over-fitted to some misleading data and overemphasizes certain types of information over more basic aspects of simple reality such as the fact that tanks need fuel and really don't do well all by themselves in dense, muddy farmland full of small fields, villages and orchards.

I'd have to play it a lot more before I reached that conclusion. The guy put a ton of research into the game and the mechanics are based off that meticulous research (rightly or wrongly).

I'm trying to think back on when I played this (it was about a year ago). My buddy and I played multiple scenarios over a marathon 3-day weekend. The game is almost relentless in its 'cranky details' as you nicely put it. The one thing I remember clearly is that the Germans, when dug in with a mix of infantry and AFV /AT support, were incredibly difficult for the Brits to overcome. I played German most of that weekend and I lost most of the games, but there was one city assault scenario were I smacked the Brits around pretty good and sent them cryin for momma.

I've never had a game feel like work to play more than this one. The detail of the rules is like nothing else I've ever seen in a game. It's more like a research project. And I'm not knocking the game. It's amazing and I had fun playing it. I think you'd almost have to adopt it as way of life to really learn to play it well.

I've really enjoyed following this AAR. Almost makes me want to take another go at the game.  :crazy2:

   I think the mods I'm considering would tend to simplify things a bit.   I'm considering getting rid of strongpoints (except the ones on the map) and having a doubly entrenched state (yep -- two entrenchments) -- one of which could be taken and used by the enemy -- after all -- somewhere on this map the 49th stood of some massive attacks by multiple SS Panzer divisions on the 30th of July and inflicted about 25% of the total German armored loses for the whole Epson thing (July 25-July30) right then and there.  The power of the defense doesn't bother me if it is available to both sides.  Some kind of command control and re-supply phase would help slow the pace and let the Germans hang on more historically.  I'm also thinking about simplifying artillery and its effects a bit.
  A lot of things about the game are very cool: the German gear is interesting as usual and the Brits have plenty of cool stuff (for example the AVRE Churchills and the carrier platoons)...so i may work it over some.
Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on July 24, 2017, 08:03:54 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on July 21, 2017, 07:16:49 PM

  A lot of things about the game are very cool: the German gear is interesting as usual and the Brits have plenty of cool stuff (for example the AVRE Churchills and the carrier platoons)...so i may work it over some.

   After a lot of very lucky rolls, the 49th is right at the gates of Rauray.  The mud has made German reactions a lot less ideal, but they got their line patched up and with some luck will hold on and get more points at nightfall for holding on which could prevent the 49th from getting better than a draw.

Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on July 31, 2017, 07:18:50 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on July 24, 2017, 08:03:54 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on July 21, 2017, 07:16:49 PM

  A lot of things about the game are very cool: the German gear is interesting as usual and the Brits have plenty of cool stuff (for example the AVRE Churchills and the carrier platoons)...so i may work it over some.

   After a lot of very lucky rolls, the 49th is right at the gates of Rauray.  The mud has made German reactions a lot less ideal, but they got their line patched up and with some luck will hold on and get more points at nightfall for holding on which could prevent the 49th from getting better than a draw.

   After most of the German armor is withdrawn and much of the remainder is blown up, the 49th begins punching some big holes in the German lines.
Things are actually shaping up in an oddly historical way (if a day early) in that Rauray is taken and the other two eastern objectives seem possible, while (as historically) Vendes in the Panzer Lehr area is not likely to be taken by the British:

Title: Re: 4 am, June 25, 1944: Operation Dauntless
Post by: MengJiao on August 06, 2017, 07:22:22 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on July 31, 2017, 07:18:50 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on July 24, 2017, 08:03:54 PM
Quote from: MengJiao on July 21, 2017, 07:16:49 PM

  A lot of things about the game are very cool: the German gear is interesting as usual and the Brits have plenty of cool stuff (for example the AVRE Churchills and the carrier platoons)...so i may work it over some.

   After a lot of very lucky rolls, the 49th is right at the gates of Rauray.  The mud has made German reactions a lot less ideal, but they got their line patched up and with some luck will hold on and get more points at nightfall for holding on which could prevent the 49th from getting better than a draw.

   After most of the German armor is withdrawn and much of the remainder is blown up, the 49th begins punching some big holes in the German lines.
Things are actually shaping up in an oddly historical way (if a day early) in that Rauray is taken and the other two eastern objectives seem possible, while (as historically) Vendes in the Panzer Lehr area is not likely to be taken by the British:

  I checked the map after writing the above and found that The 49th had taken Vendes.  This was only a foretaste of the disaster that was about to ahistorically overwhelm the Germans.  After only a few more turns, it became clear that the Germans were going to be wiped out and or driven off the whole map.  Not good news.  I think some aspects of the game are a classic case of overfitting.  Overfitted models can drift into unmodelled dynamics and take off in unexpected directions.  In this case if the Brits pour on the armor and work on overwhelming the German armor bit-by-bit, when most of the German armor withdraws, then things accellerate rapidly into a total collaspe for the Germans.  If I play this game again I'll do several things:
1) Change the artillery/indirect fire rules to reduce die rolling
2) Set up some kind of command limits for the 49th (so that they can't attack with bits and pieces of half-wrecked formations for example)
3) Play a smaller scenario (where the overfitted modeling can't run away in an odd direction)

The game is moderately fun, but tends to be more work for minor effects than really seems to be needed.  For example, shooting artillery barages at tanks has a 3% chance of doing some kind of damage on the average -- BUT there are still all kinds of modifiers while I would think density of the barrage versus density of the target should account for most of any variations in the effects.