IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Stalingrad Discussion

[RyanE]

It sucks overall, but the key might be this part...

"well...as long as they weren't stolen I suppose"

I don't know any more than what you said, but all of these 3rd party Steam license sellers seem sketchy.  I always follow the adage of; if its too good to be true, it probably is.

[Destraex]

JudgeDredd. I agree. It's always a risk to buy from key market place stores (although I am not familiar with Kinguin). It sux to have them remove the game from your library.
I would be interested to know what was wrong with the key. Did they state that?
I find il2 stalingrad to be decent, but not on the same level as DCS obviously. Which is a study sim in general. But I cannot play it due to my tinitus and not having many sound options to turn down the engine drone\whine. Both DCS and War Thunder have a tinitus option.   

A good well done multiplayer coop ww2 Tank simulator is something I have always wanted. A potentially good ww2 tank simulator. The only one out their at the moment that should be comparable to this is steel beasts pro PE and it's setting is modern.
Tank Crew module available for early access. Only $69.99 US, that's a whopping $10 off the $79.99 standard price!! Honestly I was floored by the cost of this module but also very curious. Because with a price like this it could be a fully fleshed out simulator. I wanted to pose the following questions:



a) Will the campaign be coop. I don't want another dry tank sim that gives very little reward. I don't particular want the standard sim canned missions, which have no soul, low production value that any mission builder player could make and don't really make you value your crew members either.

b) Will infantry and other support vehicles are or will be depicted. For example will the campaign have us run up against AT gun belts. AI assault guns and tank destroyers such as the STUG III G or su76. Infantry that unload from half tracks to support your advance and call targets. Sit on the back of your T34s. Minefields. You know. A simulation of what it would really be like to be in a tank in ww2. To know your crew members and possibly even some of your supporting infantry leaders. Not just a simple tank vs tank gunnery range simulator. Unlike in the air, the ground is probably a bit more complicated in terms of crew and supporting elements like infantry interaction as well as the variation of assets possible for a ground simulator.

c) I know maps will be improved. But with most games I notice that the only terrain variation are in very long slow gradients? So basically you never get sharp ridges or micro terrain features to hide in. The maps are more drawn as over views of massive distance to both save computing power and the map makers time.

d) Are crew models inside the tanks intended to be made? Will we see how cramped and hard it is for them to move around in the tank and how they were actually posed for various actions?
e) Will cockpits be clickable?

f) I  transfered my il2BOS to steam a long time ago. Should I wait to buy this module until it is available on steam?

[Jarhead0331]

I really like tank crew so far and think it has great potential. I haven't played with it a lot so I can't answer most of your questions yet, but there are AT guns manned by infantry...I know because I just got wasted by one hiding behind a barn.

I hope to try it in VR tomorrow. I hear it offers an exceptional and wildly immersive experience in VR.

[Destraex]

Jarhead

I will keep playing war thunder or combat mission cmx2 until they confirm the above I guess. Realism for me is not simply the machines. But the men as well. The tank simulator that treats infantry as just as important as the tanks that supported them will get my money. I really hope that it is this simulator. 



Good to hear their are At guns though. I wonder if the AT gun crews have the good sense to pack up, limber up to their half tracks or tractors or jeeps and run for it when they are discovered. See these are the things I am talking about. Being able to witness human reactions and the story of your crew. I don't think I am asking too much from what for me (adjusted for US currency) would be a $107 investment. That may be even more than Steel Beasts pro PE actually.

Tank sims that have gone before:

t34 vs tiger - great tanks but basic and buggy mission scripting. Has infantry but only very silly infantry.

t72 Balkans in Fire - Very lonely on that battlefield

Steel Fury Kharkov 1942 - I don't think I played this one. But hear it's missions were buggy trigger missions with vague briefings. Single only i think

Steel Armor Blaze of War - Don't have it but would like to get it. Single player only

Steel Beasts Pro PE - The best of the lot. But modern. Multiplayer and has infantry.

War Thunder - Good damage model but balanced and a lot of things inside the tank do not work realistically and neither do the match ups. although simulator mode and events makes it kind of a light tank sim.

Panzer Elite?



Problem with most of the above is no multiplayer coop campaign. Poor mission structure and production values. The tanks got the attention instead of the things surrounding the tanks that were just as important for realism and immersion.

[JudgeDredd]

I would be interested to know what was wrong with the key. Did they state that?

No. All I could see was that the keys were not bought from their store, Steam or other "approved" retailers (like Gamersgate).

Looks like I'll be investing in DCS WWII when another sale hits :)

[Jarhead0331]

Jarhead

I will keep playing war thunder or combat mission cmx2 until they confirm the above I guess. Realism for me is not simply the machines. But the men as well. The tank simulator that treats infantry as just as important as the tanks that supported them will get my money. I really hope that it is this simulator. 



Good to hear their are At guns though. I wonder if the AT gun crews have the good sense to pack up, limber up to their half tracks or tractors or jeeps and run for it when they are discovered. See these are the things I am talking about. Being able to witness human reactions and the story of your crew. I don't think I am asking too much from what for me (adjusted for US currency) would be a $107 investment. That may be even more than Steel Beasts pro PE actually.

Tank sims that have gone before:

t34 vs tiger - great tanks but basic and buggy mission scripting. Has infantry but only very silly infantry.

t72 Balkans in Fire - Very lonely on that battlefield

Steel Fury Kharkov 1942 - I don't think I played this one. But hear it's missions were buggy trigger missions with vague briefings. Single only i think

Steel Armor Blaze of War - Don't have it but would like to get it. Single player only

Steel Beasts Pro PE - The best of the lot. But modern. Multiplayer and has infantry.

War Thunder - Good damage model but balanced and a lot of things inside the tank do not work realistically and neither do the match ups. although simulator mode and events makes it kind of a light tank sim.



Problem with most of the above is no multiplayer coop campaign. Poor mission structure and production values. The tanks got the attention instead of the things surrounding the tanks that were just as important for realism and immersion.

Tank Crew is going to be limited, or confined to what the IL2 engine is capable of. It was designed for aviation, so there are going to be limitations as to what it can pull off for tanks. This whole thing started as an experiment by a few 1C devs who wanted to see what the engine could do on the ground. When they created the tank mod, in their free time, they were surprised at how good the engine looked from the new perspective. This is how the project was born. So, IL2 does infantry, but I wouldn't expect them to look or behave much differently then they do when you're flying aircraft in the same engine.

Have you looked into the STA mod for Steel Fury? It's pretty annoying to install, but well worth it if you're starved for WWII tank sims.

http://stasf2008.forumotion.com/forum

[JudgeDredd]

Just as an aside to this - and I promise I'll drop this now - this is a post from Jason that has shown up literally this week.

Pilots,

Just a reminder to NOT buy any of our products from unlicensed "grey" market websites. 1. You are all aware which sites I am referring too. Today while doing some back end work related to our recent and improved Steam integration, we 2. deactivated a batch of old keys that appeared to be unused so we could replace them with some fresh updated keys needed for a special program. These new keys were to be used to meet some other obligations we promised our customers related to Steam. 3. Turns out a large percentage of those keys were obtained through fraud and abuse and then sold second-hand through grey market sites that do not have a license to sell our products. 4. As we have stated before, such keys are subject to deactivation at any time once the fraud is either purposely or in the case, accidentally discovered. Combating fraudulent purchases is a never ending battle and we have taken steps to minimize this so we can avoid what happened today. But we can't beat this problem alone. If you like our products, protect yourself by 5. buying only through our website direct or through Steam direct or from one of our few licensed re-sellers like Gamersgate etc. If you have a question about a retailer ask us and we will let you know if they are legit.

6. If a key or product you own was inadvertently deactivated that was bought direct from us or direct from Steam contact our support and we will investigate your case. You will need to show proof that you made the direct purchase for us to re-instate the product. If your key was deactivated and you bought it from a grey market site you need to contact them for a refund. We have ZERO control over their policies and have ABSOLUTELY NO relationship with them whatsoever, hence why we do not encourage anyone to buy from such websites.

We offer many aggressive discounts and promo codes throughout the year and there is really no need to buy from such sites. There are even several users who purchase many licenses and give them away to players with little money. This community is quite generous. Such fraud is the worst kind of greed and it is perpetrated by scum who don't care about your hobby or this small genre. Don't reward them by buying from grey market sites.

Jason

I've highlighted the bits that really piss me off about this.

1. Are we? Even if I am, what about someone looking for a flight sim that encompasses the Russian theatre?
2. Really? Old keys that were unused? You mean the "old keys" that are registered on YOUR website under MY account? They were showing as unused?
3. Proof? Where is your proof that these were obtained through fraud or abuse? Al I know is I looked for Battle of Stalingrad on Google and Kinguin was listed with a reasonable price
4. Really? I don't frequent your website, so how would I know? Also, again, less suspecting people may not know to check your website to see who you sell your programs through
5. Talk about grey area? "...one of our licensed re-sellers like Gamersgate etc"? Really?
6. So whatever it is you've done is actually catching legitimate purchases from your own site and Steam? Seriously, if your control of your keys is that bad that you are deactivating your own keys or Steams, then something more is afoot than another website getting keys fraudulently from you

Lastly this

Combating fraudulent purchases is a never ending battle and we have taken steps to minimize this so we can avoid what happened today

Like what? Taking Kinguin to task? No. Because you know it's not illegal. You just don't like the practice

Sorry - continue talking good things about the game. I'm done with it now. I've got a refund and moving onto another sim.

:bd:

[Toonces]

It sounds like you got most (all?) of your money back outside of a handful of DLC you bought through Steam.  Why not just  buy the game through Steam now? 

If you like the game, I'm not sure why you're taking this hard line.  You admitted you had some concerns about buying through that Kaiguin website.  It seems those were well founded concerns.  Learn from it and buy the game legitimately, now that you've got your money back.

On a separate note, the fellas who made WoFF are putting out their WW2 sim in the near future.  If it's anything near as good as their WW1 sim, I'm all in.  Might be worth holding out for rather than going down the DCS rabbit hole.

And no, I don't know if it will have tanks (or multiplayer Coop)!   ;)

[JudgeDredd]

I'm not giving them anymore money. Whilst I can be reasonable about their issue with Kinguin, I think the way they handles it was shocking. No money from me.

As for "most", turns out I got all of it back. Steam were initially refusing a refund for the DLC because it was bought back in March. When I asked what processes they used to make sure my rights were protected and that 1C's request to remove my key was based on evidence that the key was a stolen key, they wrote back and refunded me for that DLC. Nice of them - but it took 3 posts to get there. They were downright refusing at first.

So all money had been returned.

As for taking this hard line, it's a matter of principle. 1C has no knowledge at all that the key I have was stolen. All they have is the fact that I didn't buy it from their site, Steam, Gamersgate or "one of their other licensed resellers". They're making an assumption it was stolen when the truth may well be that they at least had a "discounted" value from the sale....we can all make assumptions.

So I think the fact they took that line was bang out of order. Had I received a message from them saying the key I had was from a stolen batch I would've cut them some slack and bit the bullet. Had they provided evidence of that, if that would've been possible, I wouldn't even have murmured about it. But the assumption is - and being made by posters over at 1C - is that the keys were stolen. I've had no message to say that's the case...the game was just removed. I'm not rewarding a company that does that.

Besides - I didn't say I liked it. In truth, it was pretty and a decent game - but it wasn't me all over it. I'm not massively into WWII flight sims...too few blowie up tools. I hardly played it. It was my daughters boyfriend that was loving it. He'll have to play Cliffs of Dover and wait for a DCS sale  ;)

[Grim.Reaper]

I had the same issue as JD.....truthfully, I didn't really care too much since the game did not resonate with me anyway.  When I buy games from Kinguin or the like, I know there is always some level of risk but this is the first time anything like this has happened.  With that in mind, based on the volume of bought games, this is a risk I am always willing to take, even if I lose a few $$$ here and there.  But even in this case things turned out fine, got a full refund that I will simply buy something else.

Not just because of this issue, just something about 1c and their reps have always rubbed me the wrong way so I don't really have any intention of supporting them anyway.....

[Tuna]

Ever since the Update, I can't join New Wings or Tactical Airgroup.. Hit Start and CTD :-(.

[Jarhead0331]

Amazing...I just played a Tank Crew mission in VR and I'm sold. I was in a Tiger acting as a spearhead for a support company moving to secure a railroad crossing. We had to clear a farm of an ambush, defend against a flight of Sturmoviks and then go toe to toe against a mixed company of tanks, AT guns and mechanized infantry. Just...wow. I could almost feel the snow spraying onto my face when I popped open the hatch to look around.  I guess I had the speakers pumping and my wife actually came down to my office and was like, "WTF? It sounds like WWIII down here..." I was like, "close, babe...its WWII...eastern front. Go away!" Just a strikingly immersive experience in VR.

I can confirm that there is infantry moving around, along with towed artillery and anti-tank guns. Several of the open canopy vehicles also have exposed crew, gunners and riders.

Simply wonderful. Very excited about watching this develop.

[Skoop]

Wow, that sounds great.  I may have to finally get a vive VR, I saw the pro has the higher resolution...that's what I've been holding out for.... Also some say to hold out for the wireless vive pro.

[Toonces]

Hot damn that sounds awesome, Jarhead.   

[Jarhead0331]

I'll take some screen shots of the non-VR game, which is impressive in its own right, but the VR experience just adds a level of immersion that unfortunately doesn't translate well onto screen shot or video. It really just needs to be experienced first-hand.