Their is a statement somewhere saying that their will be two campaign modes. One campaign mode is based on the fiction of the three kingdoms. Which means generals who can beat entire armies iirc.
The other attempts historical accuracy, however it seems they are afraid of offending china and will be doing the historical one with an emphasis on "cultural authenticity" iirc.
So anyways. The long awaited next historical title promised seems like it may not be so historical. The choices will be of playing crouching tiger hidden dragon or sanitised history.
Add to this that the engine looks like warscape still.
The game has now been delayed anyways.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyVhUvWDkfA
The quote below refers to the romantisicsed three kingdoms stories that will be made into the fictional campaign. But I guess the above video reads between the lines about the historical narrative they will tell as well.
"As a western studio retelling stories of such cultural importance in much of Asia, we have to be sensitive when handling the source material in Total War: THREE KINGDOMS. In many respects, we have to hold ourselves to as high a standard for cultural authenticity as we do for historical accuracy."
https://www.totalwar.com/blog/three-kingdoms-romanticised-history
Maybe their is hope:
"Historical authenticity is clearly important for this title – what steps are you taking you ensure you achieve that?
Janos: We're working with numerous consultants to ensure both historical and cultural authenticity, one of whom is renowned historian Rafe De Crespigny. He's helping us ensure all the historical aspects of the game are as authentic as we can make them. He's the author of many of the go-to academic texts that outline the events of the Three Kingdoms period and was our first choice as a historical consultant. We're delighted with the amount of accuracy and insight he's brought to the project. His expertise has provided us with as authentic a view of the events of this period as possible.
"
I am expecting the fiction element to be front and centre and the historical campaign to simply remove the most fantastic elements from the fictional three kingdoms campaign. Leaving us with something perhaps less seriously historical than the historical team should strive for. When warhammer and warhammer II were being made some, like me, hoped that it meant the separate historical dev team would go hard core historical for us and give us something with "as close to history as possible" strategy and combat. Hopefully adding many custom features to achieve this. I am expecting a pretty vanilla experience using the current systems with almost no battlefield improvements. We will see. But the initial vibe I am getting is one of a lot of artistic license even in the historical campaign.
P.S. I am yet to pour through the 4 or 5 dedicated books I have on Chinese units and warfare to see if we even have any real evidence or fact to draw from for this period.
Release was also pushed back to Spring 2019.
Generals better not be wearing Tang and Song Dynasty armour featured in the trailer for the historical version. Haha.
Quote from: jomni on June 07, 2018, 07:37:51 PM
Generals better not be wearing Tang and Song Dynasty armour featured in the trailer for the historical version. Haha.
Slightly OT, but does your Silk Road mod cover this period? :) Just curious.
Cao Cao resembles the one from the series I watched on You Tube.
Quote from: CJReich46 on June 07, 2018, 10:52:10 PM
Quote from: jomni on June 07, 2018, 07:37:51 PM
Generals better not be wearing Tang and Song Dynasty armour featured in the trailer for the historical version. Haha.
Slightly OT, but does your Silk Road mod cover this period? :) Just curious.
Cao Cao resembles the one from the series I watched on You Tube.
Yup. Silk Road covers this period.
Quote from: jomni on June 07, 2018, 07:37:51 PM
Generals better not be wearing Tang and Song Dynasty armour featured in the trailer for the historical version. Haha.
Really? So this is like seeing 9th Century Knights armour in the 13th century?
Quote from: Destraex on June 08, 2018, 04:40:02 AM
Quote from: jomni on June 07, 2018, 07:37:51 PM
Generals better not be wearing Tang and Song Dynasty armour featured in the trailer for the historical version. Haha.
Really? So this is like seeing 9th Century Knights armour in the 13th century?
The foot soldiers are fine. But the generals, who have semblance to Koei's rendition, look like they are not wearing period appropriate armour. But of course you won't notice them in the battlefield unless maybe in Fantasy mode when they are Super Generals. Which reminds me, the usual generals in TW historical titles are procedurally generated and not historical. So maybe these characters only come out in the Fantasy mode (like Warhammer). Fingers crossed.
Jomni. Fantasy mode seems to be the default. I think the historical team is concentrating on the fantasy mode and that it will be the main event. The historical campaign I am guessing will just be fantasy mode without the generals. Rather than any significant attempt at a historical campaign, we will simply get the three kingdoms novels version of history without the overtly fantastical generals.
Yeah. I'm out on this one. I get it, it's a game, people like it, Total War has never been historical. But, I don't know, I'm a grog. I have three levels of degrees in history, and that makes me both poor and nerdtastic on a level that's hard to comprehend.
I can't follow CA through on this one. Going to play FoG2's new Bellisarius DLC instead.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on June 08, 2018, 11:59:43 PM
Yeah. I'm out on this one. I get it, it's a game, people like it, Total War has never been historical. But, I don't know, I'm a grog. I have three levels of degrees in history, and that makes me both poor and nerdtastic on a level that's hard to comprehend.
I can't follow CA through on this one. Going to play FoG2's new Bellisarius DLC instead.
Play my Silk Road mod too which covers this era. Thanks!
Still the same old LOD issues. Things look great until you zoom out over 2m away. Then the engine rips out way too much detail and leaves you with what looks like shogun1 graphics.
Maybe it's his machine?
lol.
deleted
Quote from: SirAndrewD on June 08, 2018, 11:59:43 PM
Yeah. I'm out on this one. I get it, it's a game, people like it, Total War has never been historical. But, I don't know, I'm a grog. I have three levels of degrees in history, and that makes me both poor and nerdtastic on a level that's hard to comprehend.
I can't follow CA through on this one. Going to play FoG2's new Bellisarius DLC instead.
Why couldn't CA just have done the Taiping Rebellion? Very Bloody. Mid nineteenth-century. Lots of technological diversity?
This guy has no respect for total war. 2 week siege... total war battle, what can you do has to be 20mins, sorry but we do not actually introduce or innovate for realistic or new mechanics to enable this. Refers to Historical half moo.n spectacle geeks mode? He obviously regards the historical mode as both secondary and for the boring geek types. Not impressed at all and not impressed the next historical total war had been turned into a fantasy setting with no new or innovative battle mechanics or modes. There are a tonne of things I can think of to make the historical series more realistic and interesting. But they seem to want to stagnate and play with arty fatty features like stats and hero's, magic and art styles than real mechanics. Get the marketing department out of the dev cycle!!!!!!!!
History should be the primary goal of the historical wargame everybody was waiting for THAT DID NOT WANT to play warhammer fantasy. Now we essentially have warhammer fantasy inserted into a historical setting. Good work CA. You still are not really delivering on the promised historical game. You are no longer innovating. You are grabbing money with stagnated old battle mechanics and map systems. Warscape sux anyways except in tech demo situations for your marketing where close up shots are virtually the only thing shown.
I would buy Taiping Rebellion: Total War so fast it would snap your neck.
Quote from: Gusington on June 15, 2018, 09:00:23 AM
I would buy Taiping Rebellion: Total War so fast it would snap your neck.
It would be like fall of the Samurai times 100. Boom!
YES.
Yes it would.
Boxer Rebellion Total War is the only similar title I would buy quicker.
[cue a post from someone, anyone, telling me that a Shogun 2 FotS mod is in the works for exactly that]
It's been a while since I looked at the Boxer Rebellion, but my hazy recollection is that most of the fights were pretty lopsided.
Taiping Rebellion is different kettle of fish. Lots of victories and defeats for all parties concerned. Big armies, some with similar technology, some asymetrical. And you could make an entire game about the exploits of the Ever Victorious Army. And I think the Yellow River changed its course in the middle of the war.
Is or has there ever been a PC game dealing with the Boxer Rebellion directly or indirectly? I don't recall any even mentioning it.
Quote from: Gusington on June 15, 2018, 10:14:54 PM
Is or has there ever been a PC game dealing with the Boxer Rebellion directly or indirectly? I don't recall any even mentioning it.
Age of Rifles.
Best game ever.
Quote from: Philippe on June 15, 2018, 09:40:42 PM
It's been a while since I looked at the Boxer Rebellion, but my hazy recollection is that most of the fights were pretty lopsided.
Taiping Rebellion is different kettle of fish. Lots of victories and defeats for all parties concerned. Big armies, some with similar technology, some asymetrical. And you could make an entire game about the exploits of the Ever Victorious Army. And I think the Yellow River changed its course in the middle of the war.
Yep, a mega-nightmare perfect for Total War Treatment. and you get Chinese Gordon! (Or somebody does) Before he went to Khartoum of course.
^There was an actual mod for Napoleon TW on the Sudan campaign...I played it years ago. Not sure if it's still available anywhere.
Quote from: Gusington on June 17, 2018, 06:32:06 PM
^There was an actual mod for Napoleon TW on the Sudan campaign...I played it years ago. Not sure if it's still available anywhere.
I played a generic Mahdi in a miniatures extravaganza once long ago. It was pretty much an excuse to do the 6000 pounds drops to 40 Rupee thing, but I wasn't having that and I instructed my loyal followers to forget the long-range musketry and do a reverse-slope concealed flexible defense. I think I won despite almost getting captured twice in figurine form in my Bungalow while trying to unscrew or secure a box of Gantling Guns with a pre-agricultural mattock or something.
Spy options are very elaborate. It becomes a significant way to play the game and not just an afterthought. I like the sound of it. Though not revolutionary if you played the "human resource management" games from Koei. ;D
liking the look of this
Thank you for that video. They are really lifting the look and feel directly from the Koei games. The strategic map as well as the none real time battle screens look very much like RTK 13.
I remember buying the hype hook line and sinker for Total War Brittania (sp?) and ten days after purchase suffering from buyers remorse because it looked so pretty and shiny but ended up being a hollow game. On top of that and CA's scandal of installing spyware to monitor the precise time players go to the bathroom turned me Totally off to games from this company.
My statement may lack detail to further explain my opinion but IDC. In my heart I know I'll never buy from this company again. I hope that my voice will help others to not be fooled as I was.
I saw what you did there....Nice. :notworthy:
I just got around to watching the trailers for the first time.
If you're a fan of wuxia sword and sandal soap operas, the lack of historicity and/or realism isn't too dreadful.
The more historical Total War games aren't that realistic anyways, and I haven't seen anyone mounting a campaign to do away with the impossibly ubiquitous fire arrows.
I've been watching several HEMA fight camp videos focused on what happens when teams armed with swords go up against teams armed with spears. The spear teams tend to dominate rather than just win, especially when they aren't equipped with shields (which for the most part just get in the way).
And we won't talk about what would happen in reality if a cavalry unit charged a spear-armed unit head on.
My favorite Chinese weapon was the trebuchet and I love it because it used a clumsy-looking team of men instead of the counterweight we're familiar with from medieval European warfare. But sadly enough, the game seems to be using the visually boring (and more effective) European version (which was probably invented by someone in the Middle East). If memory serves, the Mongols (a thousand years after the Han dynasty) weren't impressed with Chinese siege-craft and introduced the counter-weight powered weapon that they had picked up in their western conquests.
It would be interesting indeed if the mongols invented the trebuchet. Because they initially had no engineers and had to get Chinese ones to build siege engines. Which would mean that the Chinese could have invented the trebuchet.
One unrealistic thing I always wanted fixed with total war games that were set in the dark ages or medieval period. Was that a lot of units carried a variety of weapons. Most of not all would have had a spear or pole weapon I would think. But total war would have you believe that guys who could afford a sword just carried s sword. But total war love their Rock Paper Scissors so we have to put up with fantasy weapon configurations for units. In fact now that's I think about it most wargames separate units into weapon groups to make it easier to calculate damage and defence.
I'd love to see a game that does things properly and focuses more on weapon and armour quality of a unit as well as training and cohesiveness. What formations and moves they can pull off. The game would have units able to form giant formations by locking in with the unit next to them if the army was capable of such things. You would be able to see the weapon variety visually. A lot of units would have the majority equipped with one main type of weapon. There may indeed be specialist units with one weapon type. But most units would probably have spear and shield with a mix of secondary weapons at least for the dark ages. Spears would break on individual men and they may draw secondary or perhaps fall to the rear of the formation depending on training. Shields may sunder as well. Weight and pushing would really matter. Depth of ranks modelled. You would however have the option with specialist units to strip them down to light raiding configuration without their armour. But don't get caught. Same would go for the March, less armour for travelling unless you want to be slower to a crawl.
Think of all the things total war could model but does not "because fun" these days. For total war history is just s theme. I need a new wargame with all the goodies total war has that makes an effort to simulate warfare in whatever age it depicts. No lazy strategy layer mechanics either.
With original total Wars I thought their were technical limitations but by now we know they were just cheesing it. So much so that now a historical game is an afterthought, a secondary mode.
::)
Just to be clear, the Mongols didn't invent the counter-weight trebuchet.
The non-Chinese version was probably the brainchild of a Persian, Arab, or Byzantine engineer, but spread quickly because everyone could see what a good idea it was, and it was easy to understand why it worked.
The wiki articles on mangonels and trebuchets are worth reading.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebuchet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangonel
Hero System... looks like it's shaping up to be a "Human Resources Managment Game" like Koei titles.
I saw that and had the same feeling. Something a little different in a TW title would be welcome but I still want to be able fight wars and build things-- manage my empire. Have to put this one on the, 'Wait & See' list.
i am easily fooled so this is actually looking very good to me:). no doubt a first day or very close to that purchase for me.
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on January 26, 2019, 05:30:18 AM
i am easily fooled so this is actually looking very good to me:). no doubt a first day or very close to that purchase for me.
I'm resigned to the fact that I buy every TW and for many of them I just suffer the pangs of vague and mostly bored annoyance -- but some I like a lot (Fall of the guys with swords)
and Rome II for example
Quote from: MengJiao on January 26, 2019, 08:54:40 AM
Quote from: Grim.Reaper on January 26, 2019, 05:30:18 AM
i am easily fooled so this is actually looking very good to me:). no doubt a first day or very close to that purchase for me.
I'm resigned to the fact that I buy every TW and for many of them I just suffer the pangs of vague and mostly bored annoyance -- but some I like a lot (Fall of the guys with swords)
and Rome II for example
Yep, I have bought them all....although I haven't really ever been bored with them, I often get overwhelmed on how to manage everything and understand how it all has an impact.....love the battles as well, but find it near impossible to control all the troops in real-time, find myself fixated on watching the coolness, and forgetting to watch the rest of the battle. I do wish they would introduce some more battle management options such as giving high level directions without having to micro manage. I know they have some AI stuff, but not sure enough.
Regardless, I'll be buying to add to my collection:)
Fall of the Guys with the Swords FTW!
That's why you should NEVER run with them in your hand, you might fall. And hurt yourself. :nerd:
Like drinking and driving?
Like drinking and driving with sharp scissors in your hand. :hide:
Quote from: Sir Slash on January 26, 2019, 10:57:26 PM
Like drinking and driving with sharp scissors in your hand. :hide:
Like drinking and driving with a sword while somebody shoots a gatling gun at you.
Delayed to May 23
As I learn more about it I get less excited, I have to be honest. And you know there is no bigger TW fan than me. It's just not doing it for me in the previews.
Quote from: Gusington on February 11, 2019, 05:35:18 PM
As I learn more about it I get less excited, I have to be honest. And you know there is no bigger TW fan than me. It's just not doing it for me in the previews.
Same here. First non-Warhammer entry in the series that is looking like it's going to get a pass from me.
To be fair, I wasn't deeply into the setting to begin with. Nothing I've seen has done anything to dig itself out of that hole.
Not me, I am all in as usual:) Already pre ordered so just waiting for the day.
So far there's no 'romance' in Romance for me either.
Pre-purchased. You know I like these settings.
If jomni likes it, I'll get it.
If Gus likes it I'll get it.
If Gus eats...wait I'm Gus...
If Jarhead eats Gus, I'll buy Fallout 76.
That's the line right there, son.
Who could ever be expected to buy Fallout 76 - at any cost?
I see today Romance's release date got kicked back to May 23rd. I believe. Maybe it's to add those 'Gusington Guard' units everybody been waiting for. :timeout: Or, Chinese Scorpion Throwing Catapaults.
General Tso's Trebuchets. No MSG.
It needs a flaming dragonlets.
Explosive dragonflies?
Maybe not dragonflies, but my local Chinese place has some Hunan Chicken that can give me some explosive....something.
Quote from: SirAndrewD on February 12, 2019, 05:00:16 PM
It needs a flaming dragonlets.
Flaming Pigs need to make a comeback this Year of the Pig.
From 'explosive something' to flaming pigs...in two posts.
Quote from: Gusington on February 12, 2019, 05:43:50 PM
From 'explosive something' to flaming pigs...in two posts.
It's a team effort.
You HAVE to move fast at the Grogs. Year of the Pig Flaming Pigs I could see in a trebuchet. Call it a, 'Bacon Bombardment'. :dreamer:
Sorry to derail the discussion, but has anyone ever actually read the books?
I downloaded them on my Kindle and they are...challenging. I'm wondering if the juice is worth the squeeze, if you know what I mean.
Quote from: Toonces on February 12, 2019, 08:45:23 PM
Sorry to derail the discussion, but has anyone ever actually read the books?
You actually did accomplish that by going on topic!
But yes. Surprisingly I'm not a total drunken heathen and have the benefits of classical education.
When I was doing my history undergrad I chose China as my eastern focus. We read them as part of my first round of classes on Imperial China.
I don't remember a ton about them because as you say, they were dense. Not quite as dense as a few Russian texts I had to dig through, but I didn't quite end up enjoying the experience.
We had options to write a 50 page take home based on them and their cultural impact in China. I chose the second topic about the treasure fleets of Zheng He and the flirtation with non-isolationism.
So are you saying they're worth reading after I finish The Hobbit, or that I should give them a pass?
Quote from: Toonces on February 12, 2019, 09:20:22 PM
So are you saying they're worth reading after I finish The Hobbit, or that I should give them a pass?
As a non-historical document about a historical event, and if you're interested in understanding it in the greater cultural narrative of Chinese history, yes, they're worth reading.
As a follow up to the Hobbit, no, I couldn't at ALL recommend it. I powered through it because it was assigned to me to do so. Kind of like The Domostroy. I get why it's an important piece of Chinese culture, I just personally didn't find it to be my cup of tea.
This is why I harbor a touch of a bias against the game.
Quote from: Toonces on February 12, 2019, 08:45:23 PM
Sorry to derail the discussion, but has anyone ever actually read the books?
I downloaded them on my Kindle and they are...challenging. I'm wondering if the juice is worth the squeeze, if you know what I mean.
I started reading RTK a long time ago. It's a huge book on the same level as War and Peace. But I loved it a lot. Never did finish reading it though and I should pick it up someday.
Off topic (again). I recommend Tale of Heike too for classical Japanese stuff (before Sengoku era). I haven't finished it as well like RTK.
Quote from: jomni on February 12, 2019, 10:47:18 PM
Off topic (again). I recommend Tale of Heike too for classical Japanese stuff (before Sengoku era). I haven't finished it as well like RTK.
I'll second that.
Honestly, I just found most Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese material to be a lot more interesting than Chinese.
This was from taking a lot of classes and doing a lot of scholarly work in the era.
I think it's that China is just so big. It's not easily compressed into a study the way that is attempted even in college. I mean, I took three quarters of Chinese history with a fourth and fifth in China/Vietnam and China/Korea relations.
I still don't think I got the entire gist of it. And that's with a very good professor, who was Chinese, and a good friend and mentor.
There's just so much of it, it almost has to be your entire area of concentration and study. It's too rich.
^ I get it. It's a big country? kingdom? with an awful lot of history behind it. I can see what it would be hard to wrap your arms around it.
I read War and Peace, so the length doesn't necessarily scare me. But I don't know much (read: anything) about Chinese history. I thought reading the story that is the game's namesake would be a fun project. But, if it's not a good story, I don't want to waste my time.
Put another way: I read War and Peace because I'd heard so much about it as this huge insurmountable story, but a good one. I wanted to know for myself what the hype was all about, so I tackled it. I was totally underwhelmed. I can say with pride, "yeah, I read it" but from a pain/value perspective I'm not...well, I don't regret it. I guess I'm glad I did it, but I have no desire to do it again.
I guess I'm trying to gauge where Three Kingdoms falls on this scale. I read a bit, maybe 50 pages. It's not super difficult reading but I didn't find it necessarily entertaining. I hate to get 500 pages in and then do the sunk costs thing I did with Don Quixote. I could have bailed halfway through that book and had someone just tell me how it ended and I don't think I would have been any worse off.
I found the Romance of the Three Kingdoms drier than War and Peace.
And yeah, War and Peace is pretty dry.
As a novel and piece of entertainment it's very very weak. As a historical piece as a large and important piece of Chinese culture it's important.
If you're deeply into Eastern history and culture, and doing a study of their traditions and especially the works that contribute to the Chinese identity, it's a must read.
If you want to be entertained and are approaching it as a work of historical fiction and a novel, which it is, yeah, it's not got a lot of value. Mileage may vary, but I found nothing about it particularly entertaining, engaging or enjoyable.
Sorry. I got way too serious for a bit. Gus sniffs farts.
Someone ask for a hobbit?
There has to be some kind of ROTK reader that is designed to help Westerners get through it.
Ironically this part of the thread has made me interested in the game!
Thanks SirAndrewD. That's exactly the kind of info I am looking for. :notworthy:
Quote from: Gusington on February 13, 2019, 08:15:11 AM
Someone ask for a hobbit?
There has to be some kind of ROTK reader that is designed to help Westerners get through it.
Ironically this part of the thread has made me interested in the game!
The thing is, someone may get lost in all the Chinese names of people and places.
I'm willing to take that risk.
I think somebody's in love. :smitten:
Well, it is called, 'Romance', right?
This thread has come full circle.
Next up is Ying and Yang.
That's what I call my boys (when they're not stationed on the mantle).
Does that keep them safe there?
The reason they're there is 'cause they were not safe in the first place.
Oh. I guess that's why they call it a, 'MAN-tle'.
No one's are ever safe. I learned this. Don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise.
Got mine in my steel reinforced groin cup right now. On the mantle. O0
The Wife approves.
Back to regular programming. Records Mode gameplay where generals are not solo hero units.
Do you approve?
Quote from: Gusington on February 19, 2019, 09:23:49 PM
Do you approve?
Am I the authority? Noticed that battles take longer to play.
I'll guess I'll be playing this mode rather than Romance mode.
Of course you're the authority. Who else would it be?