USS John S McCain Collides with Merchant Ship

Started by OJsDad, August 20, 2017, 07:06:23 PM

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Con

Quote from: Staggerwing on August 21, 2017, 07:22:08 PM
[tinfoilhat] I'm actually wondering if there is a darker force at work.

Why are these accidents all happening in the 7th fleet and specifically to vessels that would be a key part of fleet defense? Is it possible that the software used to process the ships' sensors' data has been hacked somehow? [/tinfoilhat]
Again talking from my dad who was a petty officer10 years in no matter what the technology there should be multiple sailors on watch who's only job is to take visual bearings on all ships in visible range. If the bearing doesn't change then you are on a collision course. These accidents all occurred in fairly good visibility. His conclusion was goofing off and lack of chief petty officer bearing down hard on the slackers and bridge officers not focusing on their duties. Shit happens fast

Sir Slash

They're probably required to keep watch for endangered sea turtles and refugees claiming asylum from Capitalist persecution instead of oncoming traffic.  :P
"Take a look at that". Sgt. Wilkerson-- CMBN. His last words after spotting a German tank on the other side of a hedgerow.

OJsDad

'Here at NASA we all pee the same color.'  Al Harrison from the movie Hidden Figures.

Gusington

Does the Navy still use human observers to track the course and bearing of its ships, or is everything done digitally?


слава Україна!

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Barthheart

I think the answer to that question is they had better be using people because the digital is letting them down....  :buck2:

bayonetbrant

Quote from: jomni on August 21, 2017, 07:12:33 PM
Quote from: Sir Slash on August 21, 2017, 10:06:55 AM
That looks pretty serious. Maybe the bow-bulge thing from the tanker hit there? Probably lots of flooding inside.

Yes.  The tanker had damage to the bow.  It looks like a torpedo hit.

It was a crew sleeping berth on the McCain that was hit and flooded. Damage was compartmentalized, so at least the damage control systems were working. Divers were headed into the flooded areas for recovery of the missing, if they're still in there.

The tanker had minor cosmetic damage.  When you're the rammer and not the rammed, you don't generally get as messed up.  If any of you have even been around a major commercial freighter (my late father-in-law worked some massive ones, and in that area) you see just how huge they are.  For comparison, I've been on the USS Yorktown at Patriot's Point in Charleston, and the commercial freighters aren't much smaller than an older aircraft carrier.
That size also makes them about as nimble as a bulldozer in a tar pit.


Quote from: Staggerwing on August 21, 2017, 07:22:08 PM
[tinfoilhat] I'm actually wondering if there is a darker force at work.

Why are these accidents all happening in the 7th fleet and specifically to vessels that would be a key part of fleet defense? Is it possible that the software used to process the ships' sensors' data has been hacked somehow? [/tinfoilhat]
You're not the first one to wonder if there isn't some sort of interference at work, either globally through some sort of cyber network, or locally with some sort of jamming / interference.


Quote from: Con on August 21, 2017, 08:55:08 PMAgain talking from my dad who was a petty officer 10 years in no matter what the technology there should be multiple sailors on watch who's only job is to take visual bearings on all ships in visible range. If the bearing doesn't change then you are on a collision course. These accidents all occurred in fairly good visibility. His conclusion was goofing off and lack of chief petty officer bearing down hard on the slackers and bridge officers not focusing on their duties. Shit happens fast
There was a great conversation with the CG of USACAPOC back in 2009 talking about digital systems and solder-skill degradation, and one specific point was the over-reliance on digital maps.  He pointed at the 54" screen we were using to demo some software for them and said "You see that thing? Put a bullet hole in it and we've got a $4500 doorstop. Give me a $10 paper map and put a bullet hole in it, and you know what I've got?  A map, with about one square inch I can't use."
Now, he wasn't slagging us.  He was talking about how so few of his soldiers could read the map info underneath what we were displaying on the screen, and how so many of them were relying on other charts and data instead of geospatial analysis to get a sense of the terrain. 
The point still stands, though - in the era of digitization, non-digital skills have completely atrophied.  How many of us have heard anyone under 30 say "I don't need to look at the map; I'll just follow the GPS instructions."?
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Sir Slash

Great points! I've learned the hard way to always look over a map before going anywhere on a trip with my wife. She relies on her phone GPS, which is great but you really need a general understanding of where you're going and what's ahead of you. Probably much worse vs monster Merchants and Tankers.
"Take a look at that". Sgt. Wilkerson-- CMBN. His last words after spotting a German tank on the other side of a hedgerow.

Toonces

Quote from: Con on August 21, 2017, 08:55:08 PM
Quote from: Staggerwing on August 21, 2017, 07:22:08 PM
[tinfoilhat] I'm actually wondering if there is a darker force at work.

Why are these accidents all happening in the 7th fleet and specifically to vessels that would be a key part of fleet defense? Is it possible that the software used to process the ships' sensors' data has been hacked somehow? [/tinfoilhat]
Again talking from my dad who was a petty officer10 years in no matter what the technology there should be multiple sailors on watch who's only job is to take visual bearings on all ships in visible range. If the bearing doesn't change then you are on a collision course. These accidents all occurred in fairly good visibility. His conclusion was goofing off and lack of chief petty officer bearing down hard on the slackers and bridge officers not focusing on their duties. Shit happens fast

On the amphib I served on, a watch would have an officer of the deck, junior officer of the deck, conning officer, helmsman, lee helmsman, quartermaster (at least one if not 2-3), and at least three lookouts.  I suspect the manning for an underway watch on a DDG in the congested waters of the Strait of Malacca would be similar.

On the contrary, the manning for an underway watch on a commercial freighter, of which my father-in-law is a captain, could be as few as a single person with only a radar and no actual lookouts.

Before we go throwing darts at the crew of the McCain, how about we get a little bit of evidence to support the darts?  Could be the entire deck watch was screwing around.  It could also be that the McCain was operating in some of the most congested waters in the world with little room to maneuver, and was clipped by a much larger ship that had an extremely limited deck watch and failed to follow the international rules of the road.
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Toonces

Quote from: mirth on August 21, 2017, 08:05:01 PM
Opportune time for the Fleet to get its head out of its ass.

It might also be an opportunity to assess whether the two collisions in succession are related, just bad luck, or a deficiency in the Navy's charting, training, etc. 

An operational pause doesn't confer guilt, or that anyone's head is up their ass, but rather is a prudent way to evaluate current operating procedures and ensure the Navy is doing everything possible to mitigate these incidents. 
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

Marty Ward

Running into another ship in the middle of the ocean has nothing to do with reading a map. It has to do with opening your eyes! :)
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OJsDad

'Here at NASA we all pee the same color.'  Al Harrison from the movie Hidden Figures.

Toonces

I'd love to know the behind-the-scenes discussions that occurred between PACFLT and C7F.

On a related, but separate note, I started re-reading Black Shoe Carrier Admiral by Lundstrom today.  Did you know that Fletcher had two collisions of ships of which he was in command before he became the bad-ass carrier Admiral for Coral Sea, Midway, and Eastern Solomons?
"If you had a chance, right now, to go back in time and stop Hitler, wouldn't you do it?  I mean, I personally wouldn't stop him because I think he's awesome." - Eric Cartman

"Does a watch list mean you are being watched or is it a come on to Toonces?" - Biggs

bayonetbrant

The key to surviving this site is to not say something which ends up as someone's tag line - Steelgrave

"their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of 'rights'...and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure." Robert Heinlein, Starship Troopers

GDS_Starfury

can you copy paste, Im not registering on that site.
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Boggit

And there are problems with the Atlantic Fleet too...

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