Things are getting interesting in the South China Sea
http://news.yahoo.com/china-navy-warns-u-spy-plane-disputed-south-033650226.html
I'm surprised it took so long for it to be posted here. Really nothing new in this episode...the Chinese are just a bit more ornery than usual.
Yeah, except they've been on a building spree in the South China Sea. Lots of new islands with air strips have been popping up and now it looks they are going to claim sovereign rights over the surrounding areas.
I watched the P-8 patrol video from CNN.
There was a brief wide angle shot near the beginning with a shitload of vessels around this tiny man-made island. The Chinese are definitely building a permanent military base in the Spratlys.
We may well see some shooting between them and the other nations who claim them.
Quote from: Nefaro on May 21, 2015, 05:08:54 PM
There was a brief wide angle shot near the beginning with a shitload of vessels around this tiny man-made island. The Chinese are definitely building a permanent military base in the Spratlys.
They're building more than one.
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/look-how-quickly-china-is-building-its-island-bases-out-1691571576
They've been very busy little ChiComm beavers.
The Chinese play the long game. A bucket of sand here, a patch of coral there... as long as they stay below some kind of outrage threshold eventually they will have assimilated the neighborhood.
I wonder what their reaction would be if Japan, backed by the U.S. Navy, started building the exact same kind of man-made islands in the very same disputed waters? Actually, since China can't be forced to dismantle the islands and will almost certainly use them in an attempt to extend their territorial waters, that's exactly what I would do if I were Japan or even the Philippines. Better to challenge China now in such a fashion than wait until they can solidify their play.
Quote from: Steelgrave on May 21, 2015, 06:55:32 PM
I wonder what their reaction would be if Japan, backed by the U.S. Navy, started building the exact same kind of man-made islands in the very same disputed waters? Actually, since China can't be forced to dismantle the islands and will almost certainly use them in an attempt to extend their territorial waters, that's exactly what I would do if I were Japan or even the Philippines. Better to challenge China now in such a fashion than wait until they can solidify their play.
The Chinese have a righteous hard-on for the Japanese. As I understand the situation, they haven't forgiven the Japanese for the rape of Nanking, etc.
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^Yeah, I agree. If I'm Japan however, that's all the more reason to challenge the Chinese right now rather than let them continue to expand.
IMHO the Chinese have a right to be royally pissed at the Japanese. So do the Koreans. And the Vietnamese. And the Burmese. And Filipinos. Malays. Aussies. New Zealanders. Brits. French. And us.
That said I would not be excited to go and fight for that man made rock.
The Chinese have as much reason to be pissed at us ad they do the Japanese. OTOH, Mao murdered more of his own people than Stalin dreamed of. Have a cookie...
What happened 70 years ago will never be forgotten by anyone...well, except for our college students perhaps. But this is today. China is aggressively seeking to expand their territory in what is recognized by the rest of the world as international waters, or in some cases, territory which lies within the recognized boundaries of another country. Whatever grievances China may have must be settled in some manner other than a territory grab. If WWII taught us anything, perhaps it should be the eventual price of appeasement in the face of naked aggression.....
^How's that working out in Ukraine?
Ooh! Ooh! I know that one!
*using best facing-the-class voice* Not so good... ?
So are we advocating turning a blind eye towards China resolving territorial disputes by bullying other nations? Chinese news reports were crowing about how they "won" the stare down with the USN overflying their bases. We are allies with Japan, Korea and the Phillipines, the very nations China is encroaching upon. Hell, we've made nice with Vietnam even and as I recall we fought a war against them as well.
I can't speak for what Russia is doing against Ukraine except that it is in part a reflection of our weakness. China is a competitor making moves in a long term power expansion, with Japan and the U.S. in their way. We should counter it now so we don't have to fight over it later.
^But we won't as we have the Appeaser in Chief in office. What we 'should' do doesn't matter to the Appeaser in Chief. It's Peace in Our Time[tm].
I agree, Gus. I was talking about what should be done, not what I expect we will do :P
They have a billion people and they have decided they will go to the mat for those resources. Philosophically I agree with Steelgrave. In the real world, not utopia, I think we have to come to an understanding that there will be 6 big power blocks dominated by the big country. USA, USSR, EU, China, Brazil, India. If their part of the world goes to shit, that is their problem. It may seem like in the short term, a great power for freedom can police the world, but as the bills roll in, in lives and resources, overreach will doom us first.
I think Rome kept doing what had given it success, not understanding that it was leading to ruin. That is expansion. People seem to use a hunch that bigger is better. More. A lot of the world's best run countries are small.
Japan is going to have to re militarize to keep some balance of power. If they dont they will be in significant threat long term. You have to think of where China will be in 50-100 years. Any attemt to go limited hot will loose Russia into the EU at the same time.
China, Russia, and India to some extent, seem to be trying to make up for their bad decisions over the centuries. Think of where China could be today if they hadn't turn isolationists. What if Russia had given up serfdom and fully embraced western ideas. Now these countries seem to be willing to embrace nationalism and bully or outright steal what they want. While in the west our leaders are more interested in winning Noble Peace prizes for not doing anything and making peoples lives worse. All the while they line their pockets.
Among the problems is that neither China or Russia lost WW2.
To be clear, I'm not suggesting outright aggression with the Chinese, I'm simply suggesting we encourage and back the other affected Pacific nations in building their own islands in the same waters. All while the U.S. and Japan keep a very visible naval and air presence nearby. The Chinese are already claiming sovereignty and that position will only become solidified once the bases are fully operational (spoken in my best Emperor Palpatine voice). This will piss off the Chinese, no doubt, but without a doubt those bases will be defended in the future and we will be looking at civilian aircraft or even minor nation naval units being shot at by the Chinese for approaching their "territory". If they don't build them now (since the Chinese can't be forced to dismantle theirs) they are in effect ceding those waters to the Chinese, who will defend them.
^But China was raped repeatedly and will not forget it during WWII. And before WWII was no picnic for China either, at the hands of the West. They're not forgetting that either.
So China gets a pass on international law and boundaries because of WWII, Gus? They are not just pushing Japan, they are also pushing South Korea and the Phillipines, our allies. This is a naked grab for territory with the goal of replacing America as the dominant naval and economic power in the Pacific. Hell, even if we weren't allies with those nations, China is still violating international law. Maybe we should give Mexico the Gulf of Mexico because, after all, it's not named the Gulf of America. Mexico would have about the same basis for a claim as the Chinese do, plus can argue they've been victimized by the U.S. in the past.
Unfortunately I cant boycott chinese food for religious reasons.
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on May 23, 2015, 03:14:12 PM
Unfortunately I cant boycott chinese food for religious reasons.
I can dig it ;D
I'm saying to just look at it from the Chinese perspective for a second. Where was international law and boundaries while China was being enslaved? For 150+ years they have been subjugated. Now they're not and they're enjoying it.
And if we in the West can't get our act together to counter them...then we can't bitch at them.
And screw Mexico...it's a crime ridden toilet.
China thinks longer term than most nations. I get what you're saying. My point is the rest of the world shouldn't roll over for them because they've been butthurt at various times in their history. I think we're arguing apples and oranges here, Gus. Frankly, whatever China's history, their target is the USA and our allies. Our longstanding support of Taiwan has rubbed them raw for decades. Our domination of the Pacific, both militarily and economically, has made them envious. I can understand all of those viewpoints but it doesn't change a simple fact:
China is our competitor and potentially our enemy. They are building up their military with an eye towards bullying their neighbors and seizing whatever they want. Hell, Germany had some legitimate complaints before they marched their armies into Austria and neighboring countries. When you're dealing with an aggressor nation, you deal with their actions. China's way of "negotiating" is to seize what they want or steal it from us. Under no scenario should that be ignored because China has old grievances.
Quote from: Steelgrave on May 23, 2015, 08:22:26 PM
China thinks longer term than most nations. I get what you're saying. My point is the rest of the world shouldn't roll over for them because they've been butthurt at various times in their history. I think we're arguing apples and oranges here, Gus. Frankly, whatever China's history, their target is the USA and our allies. Our longstanding support of Taiwan has rubbed them raw for decades. Our domination of the Pacific, both militarily and economically, has made them envious. I can understand all of those viewpoints but it doesn't change a simple fact:
China is our competitor and potentially our enemy. They are building up their military with an eye towards bullying their neighbors and seizing whatever they want. Hell, Germany had some legitimate complaints before they marched their armies into Austria and neighboring countries. When you're dealing with an aggressor nation, you deal with their actions. China's way of "negotiating" is to seize what they want or steal it from us. Under no scenario should that be ignored because China has old grievances.
That is a fair assesment. You still have to plan out the decision tree of consequences. No western country is going to start bombing their many 1,000,000+ civilian cities over reefs. You also have to consider that unlike Russia, they tend to avoid getting into actual shooting wars. Typicaly the other side walks away before it gets to that point. Factor in their significant manufacturing capacity sudenly being turned on to weapons like only a big commie state can do. They have already displayed their willingness to take out satelites.
So what does the sequence go like? Probably this is a move to deny USN approach to defend Taiwan as well as a resource grab. If they make a strong defense perimiter south, USN is forced down a deep sea funnel to aid Taiwan in the future. So they are going to loose missiles to make this happen. There will be lots of ramming with suicide planes or boats first, but it will come to a real fight. They have just been taking copious notes on how NATO got bloodied by piss ant countries in the middle east. Their understanding of guerilla war goes back to Mao. You cant toast their civilians, you cant invade China. What exactly do you think the US could do that would be worth it over tiny islands?
The real test will be if they make a move on Taiwan. They wont do that until far more is in place.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 23, 2015, 08:44:51 PM
What exactly do you think the US could do that would be worth it over tiny islands?
The real test will be if they make a move on Taiwan. They wont do that until far more is in place.
I already said what I think we should do. I think we should encourage and support our allies doing exactly the same thing that China is doing, all while refusing to acknowledge any change in Chinese airspace or waters. The PI is already doing this by occupying a freighter moored on a small island or sandbar, which is about all they can afford. Japan should move into waters close by current Chinese construction and start building. That puts the ball back in China's court....do they do more than threaten and bluster? With the American fleet standing behind Japan, I rather doubt it.
I've never suggested going to war with China. That may happen one day, but today is not that day. By the same token, we can't allow China to get what they want by imminent domain of the sea. It's a helluva more than a few tiny islands. It's expanding their sovereignity into international waters and even into coastal areas belonging to other nations. It's also seizing natural resources which can be used to further China's military buildup. Thirdly, it's a gambit to make America back down and show our Pacific allies there is a new boss in town and they can't depend on the US. China has a lot to gain by the world's inaction. If they can get what they want without a shot being fired, it will only embolden them years down the road when the balance of power may have shifted even more. Like when they want to make a move on Taiwan.
I fully agree with your moral position. I also think they would not have started this building without great certanity that nobody will step in. The scarborough shoal by the Phillipines is probably the best one for group assistance. With the strong US ties to the Phillipines, it is most likely the US would get involved in their defense. Japan moving on their contested island probably makes sense. I cant see Japan in the south CHina sea. Given the coutries in the region are not interested in stopping the sea take at Scarborough, I dont see anything happening. Those countries will avoid. If they cant win, it is better for them to move on than get beaten down. USN is another matter, it can trash the whole Chinese military. Still, until the Chinese start shooting, nothing is going to happen.
So they will build their perimiter, then they will move on Taiwan. Maybe 20-50 years out. By then ... scratch that, this perimiter is a significant problem in future weapons tech. Right now it is rubbish.
I would say sell Antiship systems to the Phillipines. Mines to Vietnam.
^Good analysis and conclusions, Mr. Bigglesworth.
Thanks, mate. We are on the same page.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 23, 2015, 09:31:49 PM
With the strong US ties to the Phillipines, it is most likely the US would get involved in their defense.
The Philippines toned down the US relationship with them about two decades ago. They booted the US off of two rather prime spots for both navy and air force activity.
They might be reconsidering that action but it isn't clear that they are.
Quote from: LongBlade on May 23, 2015, 11:48:48 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 23, 2015, 09:31:49 PM
With the strong US ties to the Phillipines, it is most likely the US would get involved in their defense.
The Philippines toned down the US relationship with them about two decades ago. They booted the US off of two rather prime spots for both navy and air force activity.
They might be reconsidering that action but it isn't clear that they are.
I recall us withdrawing from the PI after the Mt. Pinatubo eruption and the main issue being lease terms. I don't recall it being a particularly bad or hostile breakup.
Quote from: Steelgrave on May 24, 2015, 11:15:25 AM
Quote from: LongBlade on May 23, 2015, 11:48:48 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 23, 2015, 09:31:49 PM
With the strong US ties to the Phillipines, it is most likely the US would get involved in their defense.
The Philippines toned down the US relationship with them about two decades ago. They booted the US off of two rather prime spots for both navy and air force activity.
They might be reconsidering that action but it isn't clear that they are.
I recall us withdrawing from the PI after the Mt. Pinatubo eruption and the main issue being lease terms. I don't recall it being a particularly bad or hostile breakup.
It wasn't hostile, but it wasn't good. IIRC PI has one of the best harbors in the Pacific. I'm sure it is missed.
"Moreover, Beijing claims that the reclaimed features give rise to a 12-nautical-mile band of territorial water. The claim is inconsistent with international law and Beijing's obligations under the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea, which it has ratified."
A thumbnail article on the situation along with a telling map of what China's trying to accomplish:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/25/history-s-next-great-war-zone-the-south-china-sea.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/25/history-s-next-great-war-zone-the-south-china-sea.html)
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^Wow, just wow. I don't see how China can claim waters that severely restrict Brunei and Malaysia's waters. That's just nutty. But you have to admit that they are very shrewd in their calculations and gradual increase in boldness. We're witnessing Sun Tzu in action as written by the race that created that masterpiece in the first place.
I really don't see the west doing anything about this. My perception is that this tide cannot be reversed. But when I think about ways that we can strike back other than military force I've got ideas. Since the money that China makes off of us in the trade deficit is obviously going into stuff like this we should abruptly stop importing. Stop that cash flow and you slow down their plans.
The other plan is get a bunch of nations to legally dispute this action in the U.N. since obviously what they are doing is illegal yet no one has the balls to stop them.
The problem is every single country in that region seems to have some ridiculous claim to something, stretching back a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away.
I think diplomats and weapons systems manufacturers will be busy the next few decades in the area of the South China Sea. Lock and load, good as time as any to start refurbishing the navies.
Revive SEATO. Alliances are how you deal with naked aggression.
^There's an acronym I haven't seen in a long time.
Quote from: mirth on May 25, 2015, 07:58:56 PM
Revive SEATO. Alliances are how you deal with naked aggression.
You're absolutely correct mirth. I just don't think though that the guys at the top these days think there is any problem. Or they just don't want to get involved because the days of the cold war are over so what's the point? I bet that is what they think to themselves.
I would bet that a big factor in why these countries have not allied together, is that China is probably their big trading partner. They are looking at their economies.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 25, 2015, 08:50:44 PM
I would bet that a big factor in why these countries have not allied together, is that China is probably their big trading partner. They are looking at their economies.
A lot of truth in that. We're none to eager to see the Chinese start dumping T-bills.
It's tricky to talk Geo-politics when women of questionable morals are buying you Margaritas that are mostly Tequila.
Quote from: mirth on May 25, 2015, 09:27:38 PM
It's tricky to talk Geo-politics when women of questionable morals are buying you Margaritas that are mostly Tequila.
Stay focused. This is good conversation here. Women of questionable morals are a one-way ticket to a discussion of the Kardashians.
We have serious business to discuss here. Like boobs.
....wait...
I was hoping the women of questionable morals were a ticket to something else, but let's keep talking Realpolitik in southeast Asia. That's how you get the ladies, right?
Quote from: mirth on May 25, 2015, 09:37:56 PM
I was hoping the women of questionable morals were a ticket to something else, but let's keep talking Realpolitik in southeast Asia. That's how you get the ladies, right?
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quickmeme.com%2Fimg%2F65%2F65fdbfba070e808a48bdab770055902e9e6437362b0a5ca9837dea6f79be6ee5.jpg&hash=813c4d69a7a35c0400ff3d1bf1d26e85083db665)
She said her name was Peasy
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 25, 2015, 09:50:32 PM
She said her name was Peasy
Yeah but she still thinks she's a Disney Princess and she has no problem with the ChiComms building Resort properties in the Spratly's
Quote from: mirth on May 25, 2015, 09:53:58 PM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 25, 2015, 09:50:32 PM
She said her name was Peasy
Yeah but she still thinks she's a Disney Princess and she has no problem with the ChiComms building Resort properties in the Spratly's
= kicked+to+the+curb
Quote from: W8taminute on May 25, 2015, 08:44:47 PM
Quote from: mirth on May 25, 2015, 07:58:56 PM
Revive SEATO. Alliances are how you deal with naked aggression.
You're absolutely correct mirth. I just don't think though that the guys at the top these days think there is any problem. Or they just don't want to get involved because the days of the cold war are over so what's the point? I bet that is what they think to themselves.
That's exactly why China, Russia, ISIS, etc have been taking the opportunity to expand militarily. Other major powers' leadership is (justifiably) perceived as weak-willed pushovers. Best time to strike.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0OA0DY20150525?irpc=932
^Wow, lots of sabre rattling in that article. Sounded almost like their little buddy in North Korea wrote it.
Quote from: mirth on May 25, 2015, 09:27:38 PM
It's tricky to talk Geo-politics when women of questionable morals are buying you Margaritas that are mostly Tequila.
Mirth is a bar-fly! Sweet!!!
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 08:00:43 AM
Quote from: mirth on May 25, 2015, 09:27:38 PM
It's tricky to talk Geo-politics when women of questionable morals are buying you Margaritas that are mostly Tequila.
Mirth is a bar-fly! Sweet!!!
This is news?
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 26, 2015, 12:51:33 AM
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0OA0DY20150525?irpc=932
Quote
The United States has routinely called on all claimants to halt reclamation in the Spratlys, but accuses China of carrying out work on a scale that far outstrips any other country.
Washington has also vowed to keep up air and sea patrols in the South China Sea amid concerns among security experts that China might impose air and sea restrictions in the Spratlys once it completes work on its seven artificial islands.
China has said it has every right to set up an Air Defence Identification Zone in the South China Sea but that current conditions did not warrant one.
The Global Times said "risks are still under control" if Washington takes into account China's peaceful rise.
"We do not want a military conflict with the United States, but if it were to come, we have to accept it," the newspaper said.
China's state media has stepped up its rhetoric against the United States, warning that the row over the South China Sea could hurt broader relations. But there appears to be little popular anger among the Chinese population so far, judging from sentiment expressed on Weibo, China's version of Twitter.
So a few thoughts are running through my mind, after having read the article and the comments to date. The question that I keep struggling with is "Why is this the US' fight?" Then it strikes me that I might be leaning towards a Libertarian-esque foreign policy view, and (as a Centrist) I sit here somewhat perplexed; wondering if there might be a racist streak in my foreign policy views (typical Centrist thinking) in that would I see the situation in Europe, vis-a-vis Russia, in the same light. But that it a piece of navel gazing for another time.
Ok, sure the US has defence treaties with Japan, South Korea & the Philippines. But wouldn't that mean that the US would have the backs of the Japanese and/or Filipinos should they tangle with an enemy- in this case China? Shouldn't it be Japanese or Filipino planes over the Spratlys pissing-off the Chinese (by shining a light on their nefarious shenanigans)? Or are the Japanese and Filipino governments asking the US to fly these missions? Or are they already doing their own sovereignty assertions, and it just isn't making the news? Or could it be US Admirals and Generals keeping things interesting so as to validate their budgets?
Clearly the Chinese are expanding into territory where they have a tenuous claim, but they are still far from any US territorial holdings. I know it's all a game to some, and it's probably good (in the long run) for the US to start digging its knuckles into the Chinese's ribs (so as to keep this shit far away from Hawaii). But I can't help but think that this a Filipino, Malaysian, Vietnamese and Japanese problem first, and a US problem second.
Quote from: LongBlade on May 26, 2015, 08:09:39 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 08:00:43 AM
Quote from: mirth on May 25, 2015, 09:27:38 PM
It's tricky to talk Geo-politics when women of questionable morals are buying you Margaritas that are mostly Tequila.
Mirth is a bar-fly! Sweet!!!
This is news?
I thought that he was going out and plying the bar-flies with booze, but no. He's the bar-fly!! I like it. Male equality, and all that! O0
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 26, 2015, 12:51:33 AM
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0OA0DY20150525?irpc=932
Priceless. We overfly a recently built Chinese "insta-island" and the Chinese accuse us of "provocative behavior". They do know how to play the game.
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 08:37:18 AM
So a few thoughts are running through my mind, after having read the article and the comments to date. The question that I keep struggling with is "Why is this the US' fight?" Then it strikes me that I might be leaning towards a Libertarian-esque foreign policy view, and (as a Centrist) I sit here somewhat perplexed; wondering if there might be a racist streak in my foreign policy views (typical Centrist thinking) in that would I see the situation in Europe, vis-a-vis Russia, in the same light. But that it a piece of navel gazing for another time.
Ok, sure the US has defence treaties with Japan, South Korea & the Philippines. But wouldn't that mean that the US would have the backs of the Japanese and/or Filipinos should they tangle with an enemy- in this case China? Shouldn't it be Japanese or Filipino planes over the Spratlys pissing-off the Chinese (by shining a light on their nefarious shenanigans)? Or are the Japanese and Filipino governments asking the US to fly these missions? Or are they already doing their own sovereignty assertions, and it just isn't making the news? Or could it be US Admirals and Generals keeping things interesting so as to validate their budgets?
Clearly the Chinese are expanding into territory where they have a tenuous claim, but they are still far from any US territorial holdings. I know it's all a game to some, and it's probably good (in the long run) for the US to start digging its knuckles into the Chinese's ribs (so as to keep this shit far away from Hawaii). But I can't help but think that this a Filipino, Malaysian, Vietnamese and Japanese problem first, and a US problem second.
As the article points out (and most historians of U.S. history already know) right of free passage has been an American doctrine since our founding. The Pacific, while not necessarily the "American lake" of old, is vital to U.S. security, both economic and militarily. It's not that the Chinese are threatening American territory, it's that they are threatening the right of free movement in international waters as well as the right of America to sail our navy wherever we want, so long as we are not violating lawful recognized borders. The big picture here, I believe, is the Chinese know their military cannot enforce their political will so long as America rules the seas. They are not big enough to challenge that superiority, as of yet, but are attempting to gain the same goals by bluster, obtrusion, and claiming something is so because they say it is.
The Chinese are like the guy who shoots his parents, then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he's an orphan. They build where they have no right, ignoring other nations 12 mile recognized borders, then claim the same borders for themselves when we test them. Under no scenario should America purposefully go to war with China over this, however, continued overflights of international waters and incursions by naval units are lawful, justified and should increase. I don't think China has the balls to shoot first and the uproar can only continue to bring attention to China's growing imperialistic streak.
Quote
As the article points out (and most historians of U.S. history already know) right of free passage has been an American doctrine since our beginning. Additionally, the Pacific, while not necessarily the "American lake" of old, is vital to U.S. security, both economic and militarily.
I also like the idea of free passage, so long it is not violating recognized territorial waters. But please explain what about the Spratlys is "vital" to US economic and military security. See,
that is the point I am not getting.
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 09:40:39 AM
Quote
As the article points out (and most historians of U.S. history already know) right of free passage has been an American doctrine since our beginning. Additionally, the Pacific, while not necessarily the "American lake" of old, is vital to U.S. security, both economic and militarily.
I also like the idea of free passage, so long it is not violating recognized territorial waters. But please explain what about the Spratlys is "vital" to US economic and military security. See, that is the point I am not getting.
They're not. It's the concept of free passage and respecting internationally agreed-upon 12 mile borders that is vital here. It's not about where it's happening, it's about China having no right to plant a flag in internationally recognized waters and claim this is now Chinese territory. After all, what's to stop China from arbitrarily redrawing any border which doesn't suit them?
QuoteI also like the idea of free passage, so long it is not violating recognized territorial waters. But please explain what about the Spratlys is "vital" to US economic and military security. See, that is the point I am not getting.
It's not the Spratly's specifically, but the entire area.
QuoteChina claims most of the South China Sea, through which $5 trillion in ship-borne trade passes every year. The Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan and Brunei have overlapping claims.
We've long considered free passage a vital national interest. We've fought wars over it. If we let any one nation interfere with it, we open up the possibility of anyone and everyone laying claims over patches of ocean as they see fit.
double post
Quote from: Steelgrave on May 26, 2015, 09:57:00 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 09:40:39 AM
Quote
As the article points out (and most historians of U.S. history already know) right of free passage has been an American doctrine since our beginning. Additionally, the Pacific, while not necessarily the "American lake" of old, is vital to U.S. security, both economic and militarily.
I also like the idea of free passage, so long it is not violating recognized territorial waters. But please explain what about the Spratlys is "vital" to US economic and military security. See, that is the point I am not getting.
They're not. It's the concept of free passage and respecting internationally agreed-upon 12 mile borders that is vital here. It's not about where it's happening, it's about China having no right to plant a flag in internationally recognized waters and claim this is now Chinese territory. After all, what's to stop China from arbitrarily redrawing any border which doesn't suit them?
The armed forces of the country into which the Chinese are encroaching, that's what. Same as anywhere else.
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 10:00:07 AM
Quote from: Steelgrave on May 26, 2015, 09:57:00 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 09:40:39 AM
Quote
As the article points out (and most historians of U.S. history already know) right of free passage has been an American doctrine since our beginning. Additionally, the Pacific, while not necessarily the "American lake" of old, is vital to U.S. security, both economic and militarily.
I also like the idea of free passage, so long it is not violating recognized territorial waters. But please explain what about the Spratlys is "vital" to US economic and military security. See, that is the point I am not getting.
They're not. It's the concept of free passage and respecting internationally agreed-upon 12 mile borders that is vital here. It's not about where it's happening, it's about China having no right to plant a flag in internationally recognized waters and claim this is now Chinese territory. After all, what's to stop China from arbitrarily redrawing any border which doesn't suit them?
The armed forces of the country into which the Chinese are encroaching, that's what. Same as anywhere else.
Not good enough. That's allowing the Chinese to deny our fleets passage in international waters and is a terrible precedent to accept. That simply won't be tolerated and we have resisted such attempts time and time again in our history.
Quote
We've long considered free passage a vital national interest. We've fought wars over it. If we let any one nation interfere with it, we open up the possibility of anyone and everyone laying claims over patches of ocean as they see fit.
Ok then, if that really is the point here, then get the USN to pick a piece of the South China Sea that reasonably does not lie within the 12 mile zone of any nation, and park a chunk of the 7th Fleet in it.
Fly this flag on the ships:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.istockimg.com%2Ffile_thumbview_approve%2F8751717%2F2%2Fstock-illustration-8751717-classic-walking-uncle-sam.jpg&hash=478700f8d577c0e27192bed08ef1f709c8345b72)
With the words "freedom of the seas bitches" written on it.
Make those Admirals feel relevant!
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cypresscollectibles.com%2Febayimages%2Fbiker%2FUNITEDKISS.jpg&hash=8f7217333df21156fd6bede2b07d3a2400dfc1d8)
HA, I love that patch! ;D
Quote from: Steelgrave on May 26, 2015, 10:02:16 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 10:00:07 AM
Quote from: Steelgrave on May 26, 2015, 09:57:00 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 09:40:39 AM
Quote
As the article points out (and most historians of U.S. history already know) right of free passage has been an American doctrine since our beginning. Additionally, the Pacific, while not necessarily the "American lake" of old, is vital to U.S. security, both economic and militarily.
I also like the idea of free passage, so long it is not violating recognized territorial waters. But please explain what about the Spratlys is "vital" to US economic and military security. See, that is the point I am not getting.
They're not. It's the concept of free passage and respecting internationally agreed-upon 12 mile borders that is vital here. It's not about where it's happening, it's about China having no right to plant a flag in internationally recognized waters and claim this is now Chinese territory. After all, what's to stop China from arbitrarily redrawing any border which doesn't suit them?
The armed forces of the country into which the Chinese are encroaching, that's what. Same as anywhere else.
Not good enough. That's allowing the Chinese to deny our fleets passage in international waters and is a terrible precedent to accept. That simply won't be tolerated and we have resisted such attempts time and time again in our history.
So don't accept it.
That being said, we were pretty pissed-off when y'all went through the Northwest Passage without our permission. It was deemed unnecessarily arrogant.
I suspect we won't accept it. And about that Northwest Passage thing....sorry!
Quote from: Steelgrave on May 26, 2015, 10:10:17 AM
I suspect we won't accept it. And about that Northwest Passage thing....sorry!
Meh. At least y'all are consistent.
Besides, we're not overly worried that you'll invade. Culturally and economically y'all took us decades ago! And I'm ok with that. I just wish that our dollars were in sync, so that I don't get hooped at the register the next time that the Mrs. drags me on a shopping spree to Kittery, or the family ambles down to Florida.
Quote from: Steelgrave on May 26, 2015, 09:32:42 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 08:37:18 AM
So a few thoughts are running through my mind, after having read the article and the comments to date. The question that I keep struggling with is "Why is this the US' fight?" Then it strikes me that I might be leaning towards a Libertarian-esque foreign policy view, and (as a Centrist) I sit here somewhat perplexed; wondering if there might be a racist streak in my foreign policy views (typical Centrist thinking) in that would I see the situation in Europe, vis-a-vis Russia, in the same light. But that it a piece of navel gazing for another time.
Ok, sure the US has defence treaties with Japan, South Korea & the Philippines. But wouldn't that mean that the US would have the backs of the Japanese and/or Filipinos should they tangle with an enemy- in this case China? Shouldn't it be Japanese or Filipino planes over the Spratlys pissing-off the Chinese (by shining a light on their nefarious shenanigans)? Or are the Japanese and Filipino governments asking the US to fly these missions? Or are they already doing their own sovereignty assertions, and it just isn't making the news? Or could it be US Admirals and Generals keeping things interesting so as to validate their budgets?
Clearly the Chinese are expanding into territory where they have a tenuous claim, but they are still far from any US territorial holdings. I know it's all a game to some, and it's probably good (in the long run) for the US to start digging its knuckles into the Chinese's ribs (so as to keep this shit far away from Hawaii). But I can't help but think that this a Filipino, Malaysian, Vietnamese and Japanese problem first, and a US problem second.
As the article points out (and most historians of U.S. history already know) right of free passage has been an American doctrine since our founding. The Pacific, while not necessarily the "American lake" of old, is vital to U.S. security, both economic and militarily. It's not that the Chinese are threatening American territory, it's that they are threatening the right of free movement in international waters as well as the right of America to sail our navy wherever we want, so long as we are not violating lawful recognized borders. The big picture here, I believe, is the Chinese know their military cannot enforce their political will so long as America rules the seas. They are not big enough to challenge that superiority, as of yet, but are attempting to gain the same goals by bluster, obtrusion, and claiming something is so because they say it is.
The Chinese are like the guy who shoots his parents, then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he's an orphan. They build where they have no right, ignoring other nations 12 mile recognized borders, then claim the same borders for themselves when we test them. Under no scenario should America purposefully go to war with China over this, however, continued overflights of international waters and incursions by naval units are lawful, justified and should increase. I don't think China has the balls to shoot first and the uproar can only continue to bring attention to China's growing imperialistic streak.
Well said.
Http://mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSKBN0OB0CA20150526?irpc=932
The SAR, lighthouse thing, is all about claiming to be the legitimate goverment of the region. Of course once you can spread your domination with others accepting it, it becomes a habit.
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 10:08:41 AM
Quote from: Steelgrave on May 26, 2015, 10:02:16 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 10:00:07 AM
Quote from: Steelgrave on May 26, 2015, 09:57:00 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 09:40:39 AM
Quote
As the article points out (and most historians of U.S. history already know) right of free passage has been an American doctrine since our beginning. Additionally, the Pacific, while not necessarily the "American lake" of old, is vital to U.S. security, both economic and militarily.
I also like the idea of free passage, so long it is not violating recognized territorial waters. But please explain what about the Spratlys is "vital" to US economic and military security. See, that is the point I am not getting.
They're not. It's the concept of free passage and respecting internationally agreed-upon 12 mile borders that is vital here. It's not about where it's happening, it's about China having no right to plant a flag in internationally recognized waters and claim this is now Chinese territory. After all, what's to stop China from arbitrarily redrawing any border which doesn't suit them?
The armed forces of the country into which the Chinese are encroaching, that's what. Same as anywhere else.
Not good enough. That's allowing the Chinese to deny our fleets passage in international waters and is a terrible precedent to accept. That simply won't be tolerated and we have resisted such attempts time and time again in our history.
So don't accept it.
That being said, we were pretty pissed-off when y'all went through the Northwest Passage without our permission. It was deemed unnecessarily arrogant.
What is this? I thought we had treaty with the US that our militaries have right of way. Was this a long time ago?
Yeah, well said Steelgrave.
Once such a precedent is set, then such ocean-grabbing behavior would become commonplace and much shit would be started.
It's really quite similar to letting Russian carve off parts of it's neighbors with little consequences. It will only get worse.
Meanwhile from a scientific angle, permanent floating islands far out at sea were one of my next projected steps for developing tech that would allow for feasible long-distance travel and survival in space. O0
Quote from: JasonPratt on May 26, 2015, 11:43:36 AM
Meanwhile from a scientific angle, permanent floating islands far out at sea were one of my next projected steps for developing tech that would allow for feasible long-distance travel and survival in space. O0
And it all fits with the Firefly version of the 'verse where people speak an amalgam of Chinese and English.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on May 26, 2015, 10:38:11 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 10:08:41 AM
Quote from: Steelgrave on May 26, 2015, 10:02:16 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 10:00:07 AM
Quote from: Steelgrave on May 26, 2015, 09:57:00 AM
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 09:40:39 AM
Quote
As the article points out (and most historians of U.S. history already know) right of free passage has been an American doctrine since our beginning. Additionally, the Pacific, while not necessarily the "American lake" of old, is vital to U.S. security, both economic and militarily.
I also like the idea of free passage, so long it is not violating recognized territorial waters. But please explain what about the Spratlys is "vital" to US economic and military security. See, that is the point I am not getting.
They're not. It's the concept of free passage and respecting internationally agreed-upon 12 mile borders that is vital here. It's not about where it's happening, it's about China having no right to plant a flag in internationally recognized waters and claim this is now Chinese territory. After all, what's to stop China from arbitrarily redrawing any border which doesn't suit them?
The armed forces of the country into which the Chinese are encroaching, that's what. Same as anywhere else.
Not good enough. That's allowing the Chinese to deny our fleets passage in international waters and is a terrible precedent to accept. That simply won't be tolerated and we have resisted such attempts time and time again in our history.
So don't accept it.
That being said, we were pretty pissed-off when y'all went through the Northwest Passage without our permission. It was deemed unnecessarily arrogant.
What is this? I thought we had treaty with the US that our militaries have right of way. Was this a long time ago?
I don't recall. It was many years ago though. They sailed at least one nuke sub under the Northwest Passage without notifying us, then it somehow came up in conversation years later and we were like "What??!!" Right of way is fine, but if we sailed a destroyer to Puerto Rico without giving the USN and/or USCG the travel plans, there would be hell to pay.
Here is a similar story, but not the one I am referencing- as far as I recall:
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=fb21432a-1d28-415e-b323-ceb22d477732&k=69493
Quote from: JasonPratt on May 26, 2015, 11:43:36 AM
Meanwhile from a scientific angle, permanent floating islands far out at sea were one of my next projected steps for developing tech that would allow for feasible long-distance travel and survival in space. O0
And maybe this in being kept in mind as part of the Chinese long game of world (and maybe interplanetary) diplomacy.
Or, what mirth said. ;)
Are Canadians allowed to use 'y'all'? I know I'm not as a Northerner. Does it get more northern than Canada? wtf
Y'all is poor form up here, EH?
Quote from: Gusington on May 26, 2015, 07:55:55 PM
Are Canadians allowed to use 'y'all'? I know I'm not as a Northerner. Does it get more northern than Canada? wtf
Canadians most certainly are NOT allowed to use "y'all" in any context.
It's a mandatory 30 day jail sentence is most Southern counties if they do.
Try these on fer size.
http://www.joebattsarm.ca/phrases.htm
Quote from: LongBlade on May 26, 2015, 08:38:55 PM
Quote from: Gusington on May 26, 2015, 07:55:55 PM
Are Canadians allowed to use 'y'all'? I know I'm not as a Northerner. Does it get more northern than Canada? wtf
Canadians most certainly are NOT allowed to use "y'all" in any context.
It's a mandatory 30 day jail sentence is most Southern counties if they do.
Tell you wut!
I've used in multiple threads, nice habit I picked up from Tampa last year. That and I say cheers - I must be driving y'all up the wall, just sayin' 8)
Quote from: Nefaro on May 26, 2015, 10:07:09 PM
Quote from: LongBlade on May 26, 2015, 08:38:55 PM
Quote from: Gusington on May 26, 2015, 07:55:55 PM
Are Canadians allowed to use 'y'all'? I know I'm not as a Northerner. Does it get more northern than Canada? wtf
Canadians most certainly are NOT allowed to use "y'all" in any context.
It's a mandatory 30 day jail sentence is most Southern counties if they do.
Tell you wut!
I'm tellin' ya, son.
Quote from: LongBlade on May 26, 2015, 08:38:55 PM
Quote from: Gusington on May 26, 2015, 07:55:55 PM
Are Canadians allowed to use 'y'all'? I know I'm not as a Northerner. Does it get more northern than Canada? wtf
Canadians most certainly are NOT allowed to use "y'all" in any context.
It's a mandatory 30 day jail sentence is most Southern counties if they do.
I personally believe that I should get a pass, and I'm prepared to go to the court of public opinion to plead my case.
#1. I think that I was a southerner in a previous life. I love palm trees, biscuits 'n sausage gravy, hush puppies (or anything deep fried), stray dogs, and air boats.
#2. I am Nova Scotian Canadian. We sent you the Cajuns. You're welcome.
#3. Nova Scotians are the "southerners" of Canada.
#4. Freedom of speech is like freedom of the seas, so fuck all y'all! :)
#5. Looks like the same dude did both flags.
Nova Scotia flag:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fc%2Fc0%2FFlag_of_Nova_Scotia.svg%2F1200px-Flag_of_Nova_Scotia.svg.png&hash=e8da7c70aaaa81cb21fb15b52a8f8c3f4d8315a3)
Florida flag:
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Ff%2Ff7%2FFlag_of_Florida.svg%2F750px-Flag_of_Florida.svg.png&hash=21174d768373a79a9c74ebe9ce6e3e6408fb75bb)
Ignore the Yankees, Cen. I think your case is compelling. As a Son of the South, I welcome you to the club. Hell, I like Canadians more than I like Yankees anyway ;D
Mom will not be pleased, Dad.
Quote
The SAR, lighthouse thing, is all about claiming to be the legitimate government of the region. Of course once you can spread your domination with others accepting it, it becomes a habit.
Been thinking about this.
A while back, someone posted a link to an interesting photo essay of Filipinos (as I recall) manning an outpost in the Spratlys, the outpost was basically a half-sunken wreck of a ship. I don't recall if they were soldiers, sailors, or Marines. But I seem to recall that they were dressed in civvies (shorts, t-shirts & flip-flops), probably so as not to be provocative to the Chinese.
So I'm thinking 'why can't the Filipinos build an island or two?' I'm sure that they have legitimate SAR concerns too, as I'm sure that their fishermen work those waters. The whole thing could "sponsored" by Del Monte Foods ;) While the new Filipino SAR/Coast Guard station is being constructed (guarded by uniformed Filipino sailors and Marines), USN could send Task Force 70 for an extended visit to Subic Bay (publicly & jokingly called "Operation Tripwire"), while simultaneously sending Carrier Strike Groups Three and Nine for a leisurely friendship visit to Japan.
Del Monte could kindly send bundles of this t-shirt, for all the workers to wear. I wonder how one spells "Cash" in Chinese?
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F41ef6UjH2JL._SX342_.jpg&hash=83f1c51c0adf6850ad298e62e73cda68b9859e1d)
Quote from: Gusington on May 27, 2015, 07:39:07 AM
Mom will not be pleased, Dad.
I'm sure that Steelie doesn't see you as a Yankee. Mirthie neither. Do you even own a carpet bag?
@40
LOL. That's an awesome rebuttal.
Quote from: Gusington on May 27, 2015, 07:39:07 AM
Mom will not be pleased, Dad.
Of course, I make exceptions for my friends here. Heck, most days I can almost forget you're Yankees O0
Quote from: Gusington on May 27, 2015, 07:39:07 AM
Mom will not be pleased, Dad.
Of course, I make exceptions for my friends here!!! Heck, most days I almost forget you're Yankees! O:-)
And thanks for coming to my defense, Cen O0
Looking at this map, methinks it better that Del Monte sponsor Vietnamese artificial island building! Besides, the Vietnamese already know what it is to trade fire with the Chinese.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F3%2F36%2FSpratly_with_flags.jpg&hash=bcf084f77f7b37f7228669d660c5e26b517f3f98)
IIRC, the Vietnamese and Chinese have traded patrol boat shots over stuff in the area before.
I still wonder how pissed all the other nations, with claims in the area, are about China building military bases on them. I know most of them have little Navy to speak of so they may just be keeping relatively quiet because they can't do much about it.
Quote from: Nefaro on May 27, 2015, 01:22:33 PM
IIRC, the Vietnamese and Chinese have traded patrol boat shots over stuff in the area before.
I still wonder how pissed all the other nations, with claims in the area, are about China building military bases on them. I know most of them have little Navy to speak of so they may just be keeping relatively quiet because they can't do much about it.
Possession being nine tenths of the law, I suspect you're right.
Geeze, I just went on google maps, and you can actually see the buggers working on some islands. Like ticks on a dog!
https://www.google.ca/maps/@10.9192142,114.0767856,5298m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
Apparently, it is a place called Subi Reef.
So I continue scanning the area, and I find this bad omen (attached). It's almost dead centre in the midst of the Spratleys, near some island dredging. I assume that it is Chinese.
And that little anti-christ bugger, by my Google Map calculations, looks to be around 150 km west of Palawan, and island that is clearly part of the Philippine archipelago. :o
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 27, 2015, 09:40:08 AM
Looking at this map, methinks it better that Del Monte sponsor Vietnamese artificial island building! Besides, the Vietnamese already know what it is to trade fire with the Chinese.
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F3%2F36%2FSpratly_with_flags.jpg&hash=bcf084f77f7b37f7228669d660c5e26b517f3f98)
Personally, I look at that map and think that the entire area was bought and paid for with American blood. But memories are short and clearly I'm still living in the 1940s.
Isn't the number of that ship 999?
And I agree with LB - I see it in a 1940s way too.
Quote from: Gusington on May 27, 2015, 06:18:49 PM
Isn't the number of that ship 999?
And I agree with LB - I see it in a 1940s way too.
666 backwards!!! How evil is that?!?!
Um...very?
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 27, 2015, 08:36:33 PM
Quote from: Gusington on May 27, 2015, 06:18:49 PM
Isn't the number of that ship 999?
And I agree with LB - I see it in a 1940s way too.
666 backwards!!! How evil is that?!?!
They're Chinese. Much better for us to use 444.
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 27, 2015, 02:09:19 PM
So I continue scanning the area, and I find this bad omen (attached). It's almost dead centre in the midst of the Spratleys, near some island dredging. I assume that it is Chinese.
That's a peaceful vessel. Did you notice the peace signs?
^lol. The forward gun mount looks peaceful enough. Probably blows kisses.
Quote from: LongBlade on May 27, 2015, 09:48:38 PM
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 27, 2015, 08:36:33 PM
Quote from: Gusington on May 27, 2015, 06:18:49 PM
Isn't the number of that ship 999?
And I agree with LB - I see it in a 1940s way too.
666 backwards!!! How evil is that?!?!
They're Chinese. Much better for us to use 444.
Hmm, interesting & educated observation. Especially for us to use in the future. BUT it is, AFAIK, a Chinese warship. if they knew their enemy (and I would argue that they do), then they'd know that "444" would have no cultural resonance among (post) Judeo-Christian societies. However "666" does; especially within the metal sub-culture. Bazinga!
Related to a post that I made in the UN thread, I think that we need to look at the history of The People's Republic of China and its dealings with its bordering neighbours; in order to gauge the way forward in the Spratlys.
The Russians had to fight (as in soldiers killing each other) with the Chinese. The Indians had to fight with the Chinese. The Vietnamese had to fight with the Chinese.
Here again, the Chinese are going to push until someone being pushed, pushes back.
I found the following to be a thought provoking article. It opens with this:
1) China possesses a rapidly improving military that, in certain local or regional engagements, could match — and even defeat — U.S. forces in battle.
2) In military terms, China is a paper dragon that, despite its apparent strength, is powerless to intervene in world events far from its shores.
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/06/21/why-china-is-far-from-ready-to-meet-the-u-s-on-a-global-battlefront/ (http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/06/21/why-china-is-far-from-ready-to-meet-the-u-s-on-a-global-battlefront/)
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 27, 2015, 08:36:33 PM
Quote from: Gusington on May 27, 2015, 06:18:49 PM
Isn't the number of that ship 999?
And I agree with LB - I see it in a 1940s way too.
666 backwards!!! How evil is that?!?!
Looking at it from their direction, it is probably not backwards.
More on the Chinese island building spree in the South China Sea
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/07/30/world/asia/what-china-has-been-building-in-the-south-china-sea.html
Quote from: mirth on July 31, 2015, 09:16:54 AM
More on the Chinese island building spree in the South China Sea
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/07/30/world/asia/what-china-has-been-building-in-the-south-china-sea.html
We need to invent a localized earthquake machine that can shake those islands back into the sea.
Quote from: LongBlade on July 31, 2015, 10:04:59 AM
We need to invent a localized earthquake machine that can shake those islands back into the sea.
We have it. We call it Trident or Minuteman.
Quote from: mirth on July 31, 2015, 10:10:05 AM
Quote from: LongBlade on July 31, 2015, 10:04:59 AM
We need to invent a localized earthquake machine that can shake those islands back into the sea.
We have it. We call it Trident or Minuteman.
Oh, I know. I was just thinking something less obvious. Less...traceable.
Quote from: LongBlade on July 31, 2015, 10:21:45 AM
Quote from: mirth on July 31, 2015, 10:10:05 AM
Quote from: LongBlade on July 31, 2015, 10:04:59 AM
We need to invent a localized earthquake machine that can shake those islands back into the sea.
We have it. We call it Trident or Minuteman.
Oh, I know. I was just thinking something less obvious. Less...traceable.
We've got that covered too :P
http://www.naturalnews.com/032670_Fukushima_HAARP.html
Where do you find this tripe?
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on July 31, 2015, 11:03:52 AM
Where do you find this tripe?
Don't forget, he
is part of the Groginatti. We might be responsible for writing the story.
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on July 31, 2015, 11:03:52 AM
Where do you find this tripe?
Quote from: LongBlade on July 31, 2015, 11:07:10 AM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on July 31, 2015, 11:03:52 AM
Where do you find this tripe?
Don't forget, he is part of the Groginatti. We might be responsible for writing the story.
Biggs' insolent tone has been noted.
Ah, yes, that. I could come up with some good stuff.
Quote from: mirth on July 31, 2015, 11:10:10 AM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on July 31, 2015, 11:03:52 AM
Where do you find this tripe?
Quote from: LongBlade on July 31, 2015, 11:07:10 AM
Quote from: Mr. Bigglesworth on July 31, 2015, 11:03:52 AM
Where do you find this tripe?
Don't forget, he is part of the Groginatti. We might be responsible for writing the story.
Biggs' insolent tone has been noted.
And take your thumb out of your ear, it makes your forehead look bulbous.
:P
I didn't even post the really batshit crazy stuff
http://www.knowthelies.com/node/8010 (http://www.knowthelies.com/node/8010)
The internet sure is whacky.
Quote from: mirth on July 31, 2015, 11:15:03 AM
I didn't even post the really batshit crazy stuff
http://www.knowthelies.com/node/8010 (http://www.knowthelies.com/node/8010)
The internet sure is whacky.
Their chemtrail forecast isn't bad, but mine is more accurate.
Quote from: LongBlade on July 31, 2015, 11:25:18 AM
Quote from: mirth on July 31, 2015, 11:15:03 AM
I didn't even post the really batshit crazy stuff
http://www.knowthelies.com/node/8010 (http://www.knowthelies.com/node/8010)
The internet sure is whacky.
Their chemtrail forecast isn't bad, but mine is more accurate.
Well you are lead forecaster for the Groginati.
Not Toonces?
Toonces handles real weather. LB handles chem trails. When it's raining men, we call in Star.
Got it.
Quote from: mirth on July 31, 2015, 11:55:24 AM
Toonces handles real weather. LB handles chem trails. When it's raining men, we call in Star.
<chuckle>
Quote from: mirth on July 31, 2015, 11:55:24 AM
Toonces handles real weather. LB handles chem trails. When it's raining men, we call in Star.
Hallelujah!
:2funny:
Love trails, ya mean? C:-)
Well this ought to settle things with the ChiComms ::)
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/john-kerry-urges-beijing-to-halt-problematic-actions-in-south-china-sea-during-asean-meeting.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/06/world/asia/john-kerry-urges-beijing-to-halt-problematic-actions-in-south-china-sea-during-asean-meeting.html)
Oooh. Urging the Chinese is bound to resolve the issue.
Quote from: LongBlade on August 05, 2015, 02:33:47 PM
Oooh. Urging the Chinese is bound to resolve the issue.
Not only that, he told them the U.S. was "concerned". Talk about brinksmanship.
Obama's choices for Sec State have been some of his biggest failings as POTUS, imho.
I remember my Democratic friends being so on fire for voting Kerry for President back in the day. I kept asking them what they thought he positively brought to the job application, and their answer was always a sort-of-confused, "Well, he isn't George Bush, duh?" or words to that effect.
He's still probably a better choice for President than Mrs. Clinton. "BUT SHE'S A WOMAN AND WE MUST CONTRIBUTE TO HAVING A UNIQUE MOMENT IN HISTORY!" What. Ev. er.
Apparently John Kerry's warning went unheeded by the Chinese ::)
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/16/world/asia/china-building-airstrip-on-3rd-artificial-island-images-show.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/16/world/asia/china-building-airstrip-on-3rd-artificial-island-images-show.html)
Apparently Kerry didn't have his "Obama Red-Line Paint" spray can with him.
QuoteThe Obama administration has called on China to stop land reclamation, construction and militarization of South China Sea outposts, a policy that Washington calls the "three noes."
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv189%2Fyoungun39%2Fohnoes.jpg&hash=c46ac8484ac2c16097175b663b01e063f5145679)
smh
Quote from: mirth on September 16, 2015, 06:59:46 AM
Apparently John Kerry's warning went unheeded by the Chinese ::)
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/16/world/asia/china-building-airstrip-on-3rd-artificial-island-images-show.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/16/world/asia/china-building-airstrip-on-3rd-artificial-island-images-show.html)
Before or after the strongly worded letter?
Whoa SecDef is getting tough with the ChiComms
http://breakingdefense.com/2015/09/carter-calls-for-immediate-complete-halt-to-south-china-sea-island-building/ (http://breakingdefense.com/2015/09/carter-calls-for-immediate-complete-halt-to-south-china-sea-island-building/)
QuoteWe also oppose any further militarization of disputed features. We all know there is no military solution to the South China Sea disputes. Right now, at this critical juncture, is the time for renewed diplomacy, focused on a finding a lasting solution that protects the rights and the interests of all," Carter told a standing room only audience at the Air Force Association's annual conference.
Damn I hope he doesn't start WWIII!
Lets try to be a little more fair to Kerry, he is the instrument of administration policy. Remember that recently the Obama admin went through a phase were policy makers and military leaders were often out of step as far as messaging. I would imagine Kerry's leash is short and Ashton Carter's even shorter, and military leaders shortest of all.
Its no secret that Obama is a domestic oriented president and his foreign policy, at best, has been aimless. US foreign policy will change for the better with almost anyone else as president, except maybe Bernie Sanders or Steven Keaton from Family Ties.
No matter how many times I hear it, I still can't get over foreign policy statements that say there are no military solutions to X problem. Nobody wants to fight a war, but c'mon, this is getting a little silly. Even worse than saying there is no military solutions to a problem is when you say to Iran that military options are on the table, when they damn well know there are not.
Game on
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/26/us-southchinasea-usa-idUSKCN0SK2AC20151026
China's Foreign Minister Wang Yi said Beijing was trying to verify if the U.S. ship had entered the 12-mile zone.
"If true, we advise the U.S. to think again and before acting, not act blindly or make trouble out of nothing," the Foreign Ministry quoted Wang as saying.
Seems like an abrupt change of tone.
Apparently the Chinese are getting a lot of domestic pressure to stand up to the US, so there's going to be some menacing rhetoric.
Mostly this is one more bungle by the Obama administration. Not that we shouldn't be making the FoN sail, but that we waited so long to do it and are now making a spectacle out if it.
http://breakingdefense.com/2015/10/navy-to-challenge-chinese-claims-at-last-the-price-of-delay/
Western media needs to stop referring to the Chinese island building as " land reclamation". I've seen it several times now in reporting on the matter. From the WP article:
QuoteA massive Chinese program of land reclamation and construction on several islands has taken place since 2014, upsetting ties with the United States and several of those rival claimants.
Dredging sand and dumping it onto reefs to make islands is not land reclamation.
Those reefs were not considered islands under international convention and thus not subject to the 12 mile limit. Piling sand on them does not change that.
BTW, has anyone read or heard about how those Filipino marines are doing with their territorial placeholder mission aboard that rusty beached freighter ?
I thought they had to abandon it. Not sure though.
Apparently the ship, and the marine contingent, is still there
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/14/us-southchinasea-philippines-shoal-exclu-idUSKCN0PN2HN20150714 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/14/us-southchinasea-philippines-shoal-exclu-idUSKCN0PN2HN20150714)
Quote from: mirth on October 27, 2015, 09:38:12 PM
Apparently the ship, and the marine contingent, is still there
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/14/us-southchinasea-philippines-shoal-exclu-idUSKCN0PN2HN20150714 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/14/us-southchinasea-philippines-shoal-exclu-idUSKCN0PN2HN20150714)
Good! They should fill it with sand and call it an island. Better yet, hire a Japanese company to dredge-up an island there, and build a 5 star resort, with airport that offers a 50% military discount to ASEAN & ANZUS nations. Maybe build a "NASA" ;) observatory or two, just to round things out.
Quote from: Centurion40 on October 28, 2015, 12:27:29 PM
Quote from: mirth on October 27, 2015, 09:38:12 PM
Apparently the ship, and the marine contingent, is still there
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/14/us-southchinasea-philippines-shoal-exclu-idUSKCN0PN2HN20150714 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/14/us-southchinasea-philippines-shoal-exclu-idUSKCN0PN2HN20150714)
Good! They should fill it with sand and call it an island. Better yet, hire a Japanese company to dredge-up an island there, and build a 5 star resort, with airport that offers a 50% military discount to ASEAN & ANZUS nations. Maybe build a "NASA" ;) observatory or two, just to round things out.
Or let's go park a carrier five or six miles offshore from the Spratleys and call the carrier an island! I like that one too :)
I just posted this on the "Flying Submarine" thread, but given how this thread is getting so much traction, I'm also posting it here. It is a comment supposedly made by a Chinese analyst who is part of a "think tank". True or not, some interesting observations are made. BTW, the author gives a brief summary at the end if you're too lazy to read it all 8)
I am a Chinese working as a China analyst at a think tank. It is becoming more and more apparent to many people, that the ruling Chinese Communist Party (CCP) knows it is on its last straw of survival.
The party is facing severe and endlessly increasing systematic stress on all fronts:
1. Increasing external oppositions from all other countries in the world including all of China's neighbours. They are forming more and more alliances and becoming more outspoken with rising strengths against China, in addition to increasing anti-China sentiment from people in all other countries. Many countries including Canada and Australia and U.S. have just tightened their immigration policy to prevent Chinese from entering their countries. Even on these casual internet message boards, when you look past the paid Chinese propaganda professional commenters, you notice rising general anti-China feelings from all over the world.
2. Increasing internal severe and massive violent social unrest and anti-CCP mutiny from people of all Chinese living places. To beat down internal dissent in mainland China, the CCP every year is forced to spend even more money than on its massive military budget. All the semi-external places (Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Tibet, Macau) are fighting harder and harder to break free from China. Taiwan is for all practical purposes already a separate democratic country, and anti-China sentiment there (especially among younger Taiwanese generation) is at all-time high after seeing how China violently suppress Hong Kong as an example of "reunification". This whole situation is continuously worsened by the free flow of information, with Chinese people knowing more and more from travelling abroad and learning about truths from jumping beyond the "Great Fire Wall" on the internet.
3. Its own economy and social system never able to advance to higher level beyond mass skill-less manufacturing, due to complete absence of law and common morals. High technology and innovations and scientific development all require many citizens working together voluntarily contributing long term in a system they trust, with things like rule of law, no censorship on knowledge, no restrictions on speech and expression, copyrights, patents, common morals when collaborating and trading with each other etc. These qualities are all destroyed in modern China by the CCP. When was the last time you heard an announcement of technology development or innovations or scientific breakthrough coming from a Chinese organization / company / university? You haven't because there ain't any. Unlike mass manufacturing factory work, high level human developments cannot be forced on or bought with a dictator's central planning. The only way modern China gets these things is from stealing and spying from all other countries, but that has become much more difficult since the whole world has caught on to their act.
This systematic fatal flaw is why you do not see even one Chinese brand or company that can compete in the international market in any industry of the human race. For example Lenovo, who is already one of the few Chinese brands some people may have heard of, cannot make either the chips that power their computers or the operating system that run them, so it is just one of many plain vanilla boxmakers without any competitive advantage. Another example Huawei is blacklisted by many countries and international customers because everyone knows Huawei's products send all communication data back to the CCP. This is also why China cannot produce even one home-grown science Nobel Prize winner in its history. No rule of law in China also means no people or businesses, both Chinese and foreign, ever invest in China long-term or on a large scale because everything frequently change on a whim along with the political climate. No one trusts any contract or agreement in China because they are always broken by the Chinese and there is no legal protection whatsoever, meaning China can never advance to a knowledge economy or service economy. No rule of law also ensures Shanghai fail to become a financial city despite the CCP dumping huge resources into it for 30 years.
4. China's mass skill-less manufacturing itself is going away to other countries due to sharply increasing costs and openly hostile and unfair business environment full of frauds and sanctioned protectionism and government robberies. The labor force is endlessly more demanding both in wages and benefits expectations and working conditions, especially since all of today's Chinese workers are single child used to coddling and indulgement by their own family. It is further worsened by the rise of robotic automatic manufacturing and 3D printing. This situation is a death knock to the "growth-based legitimacy" of the CCP, which is the only thing CCP can rely on for continuing ruling power. For sure Chinese people tolerate the CCP when the economy seemingly explodes, but when one day it crashes and the country's hopeless bad shape hit them in the face the people's "support" for the CCP will turn on a dime.
Since six months ago, all the major economic indicators for China have gone on a continuing nosedive - including manufacturing orders, export volume, commercial investments, graduate employment rate, corporate credits, foreign capital inflow, domestic consumptions, real estate prices, consumer spendings, luxury goods demand, HSBC Service PMI, survey of business sentiments etc. Suddenly all the rich Chinese tourists gobbling up luxury goods at different world cities seem to have disappeared altogether. The CCP is on its last resort of printing literally trillions of worthless renminbi to dump into the economy, causing way more long-term harm than short-term help, and when that is over there is nothing else the CCP can do to prop up the failing economy. China currently ranks 82nd on GDP per capita and that is the highest it can go before falling sharply in the coming near future.
5. Fierce unstoppable purges and mutually-destructive infighting among different factions within the party, who are imprisoning and killing each other every day. This power grab goes on under the laughable thin guise of "anti-corruption drive" when everyone knows all officials in china are corrupted. No work to manage the country or guide the ship is being done while this is going on.
6. Its many previously-suppressed fatal problems have all grown too big to be contained all catching up to the CCP e.g.
- severe carcinogenic poisonous pollution everywhere in air and water and soil and their own food etc, with the WHO issuing multiple warnings on Chinese population having the fastest cancer growth rate in the whole world
- skyrocketing unrepayable bad debts of all kinds everywhere, its true scope no one on Earth knows because all data from China are faked
- biggest housing bubble in human history, in addition to innumerous crumbling "ghost cities" and shoddily-built vanity project "GDP-creating" infrastructure that cannot and will not be used
- rapidly aging demographics with a 140:100 male:female ratio (from one child policy, culture of "leftover women", and many Chinese families killing their own daughters so as to chase boys)
- world's no.1 wealth inequality, with a Gini coefficient rivaling 18th century France just before the French revolution
- complete absence of soft power / cultural influence / social attraction, partly due to CCP censorship. One result of which is minimal and sharply dwindling number of foreign professionals and tourists and students going to China. It also means the CCP only has force as the only tool to use on the international stage
- all Chinese chasing foreign-brand goods and services while ditching low-quality Chinese-brands, who have a well known history of poisoning their own food and their own baby formula so as to make more money. This dashs CCP's hope to build indigenous industries and a domestic consumption economy
- corruptions and fraud throughout the whole rotten core of a system
- desperate mass exodus at all levels of Chinese society to escape the country using emigration or buying houses / study abroad or marriage to foreigners or plain old human smuggling, resulting in all able Chinese leaving taking huge amounts of talents and money out of the country
- the law of large numbers, "middle-income trap" and "Minsky moment" all work against the growth-based legitimacy CCP desperately needs for its survival
Most importantly, the CCP knows that if 1.4 billion Chinese learn about basic human qualities such as morals, truth, justice, human rights, rule of law, fairness, freedom, universal values etc the CCP will be toppled very quickly. Therefore its state-controlled brainwashing education and propaganda machinations ensure a complete lack of morals and regard for laws in all Chinese growing up and beyond. This results in failure in all basic aspects of human interactions with every modern Chinese, whether it is business trading / personal dealings / technology development / creating innovations / human communications / scientific research / artistic expressions / teamwork collaborations / academic exchange etc. Another propaganda brainwashing technique used by the CCP is to make all Chinese people pathologically nationalistic and very emotional on this issue, so the CCP can always create and point to some "foreign enemies" so as to hide all the domestic crises and government robberies going on. This attention-diverting technique is the same trick magicians have used for more than a thousand years to fool their audience.
An interesting example would be the Chinese reaction to this report - they are expected to dismiss this report as total rubbish, accuse the author "unpatriotic" for saying the truth, shout China will only become richer and stronger than all other countries, yet they will give no counter-arguments and they will make no acknowledgement to the horrible factual conditions and complete lack of basic human qualities listed above in modern China. Ironically, the longer Chinese people deny or refuse to acknowledge the CCP problem, the longer they are only digging themselves into the hole and hurting themselves for any chance of recovery, causing the chinese economy to crash even further. Consider the example of Google, Facebook, Wikipedia, Youtube, Whatsapp, Twitter, Instagram etc - these services are all completely blocked in China while at the same time the rest of the planet are on these services every second communicating ideas with each other, making friends, exchanging knowledge, doing business, working together, improving science and technology and arts, and advancing humanity.
Some people say China economically developed a lot in past 20 years, but the truth is this "development" is actually debt borrowed against the future. After the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre of their own students, in order to survive and hang on to power, the CCP was forced to pursue short-term explosive economic growth that sacrifice everything else, including a foundation or potential for long-term economic and social development. This "scorched earth" policy is like winning the lottery for corrupted CCP officials who can rob a lot of money from the country in the short-term before escaping to America. The only entity left to suffer is China's future from this point on, a country that has been turned by the CCP into a place with no law, no morals, no system for future scientific or economic or social development, no spiritual support apart from money, no trust or cooperation among Chinese, no trust or goodwill from foreigners, no other country as friends, all resources sold away cheaply, entire environment and air and water and soil and food fatally polluted, only social recognition is to make a lot of money for "face", no creativity or personal development for Chinese young people, a populus not allowed to know the truths and not allowed to say the truths.
The end result is that majority wealth of this "debt borrowed against the future" has gone to the 0.000000001% elite ruling class "princeling" CCP families (about 250 of them) who have already smuggled trillions of dollars abroad along with their U.S. passports and their own children (all Chinese elites and Politburo members hold foreign passports, with U.S. and U.K. being the most sought after choice). For the CCP in 1989, 1.4 billion people is great central-planning asset when the country start from nothing and you order them to do backbreaking mass manufacturing repetitive factory work 20 hours a day without workers protection of any kind. But in the 2014 borderless knowledge economy when that no longer works, 1.4 billion immoral and uncooperative and selfish and undeveloped and angry Chinese contained in a lawless system without any hopes of growth is very, very dangerous liability for the CCP.
All debts against the future have to be paid back - China is no exception. That moment may arrive a bit later than expected but it surely will come, as it has on 100% of occasions in human history. In normal countries bad conditions correct themselves with short periods of market ups and downs, but in China the CCP suppress all problems and criticisms until inevitable system meltdown. For China the moment has arrived to suffer the consequences for all its own chosen actions in past 30 years. All the festering fundamental systematic problems listed above and much more, are only getting worse and worse everyday until one day when the system can suddenly no longer bear.
Think USSR in 1989.
( Cliff notes summary for the smartphone generation with ADD, ADHD and Asperger's:
- The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) signed a deal with the devil to pursue miraculous short-term economic growth
- Miraculous short-term economic growth has been achieved, now China has hit the wall on its path of no return, many bad conditions have caught up
- CCP cannot go on externally, it cannot go on internally, economy has no way to go but greatly down, many fatal cancers and huge structural problems from the past now overwhelming the country
- Something has to break, what happens is anyone's guess, guaranteed to greatly impact China and the world )
So the commie leadership is going to provoke a war to take people's minds off of internal problems.
Wouldn't be a shocker. Nothing like waving the bloody shirt to distract a populace.
Sorry, tl;dr but I did read the summary and I will go back when I can concentrate a bit more.
One thing that I haven't read of much - the fallout from China's One Child policy. There is a big bubble of single men whose corresponding female mates were, ummm, unchilded because female children were considered less valuable than men.
Quote from: LongBlade on October 28, 2015, 03:20:17 PM
Sorry, tl;dr but I did read the summary and I will go back when I can concentrate a bit more.
One thing that I haven't read of much - the fallout from China's One Child policy. There is a big bubble of single men whose corresponding female mates were, ummm, unchilded because female children were considered less valuable than men.
It was announced today that the policy has been lifted. So do they wait 18 years to start shooting, or do they wind-up the meatgrinder now to soak-up the excess males?
More on the delay behind the FoN patrol
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/28/us-southchinasea-usa-decision-idUSKCN0SM2GN20151028
Quote from: Centurion40 on October 29, 2015, 07:58:56 AM
Quote from: LongBlade on October 28, 2015, 03:20:17 PM
Sorry, tl;dr but I did read the summary and I will go back when I can concentrate a bit more.
One thing that I haven't read of much - the fallout from China's One Child policy. There is a big bubble of single men whose corresponding female mates were, ummm, unchilded because female children were considered less valuable than men.
It was announced today that the policy has been lifted. So do they wait 18 years to start shooting, or do they wind-up the meatgrinder now to soak-up the excess males?
For some reason I thought it had been lifted a few years ago.
Doesn't matter. The damage is done. It's been going on for nearly a generation. I don't know what China's "vision" is for its future but there sure appears to be a lot of cannon fodder sitting around.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-29/china-abandons-three-decade-old-one-child-policy-to-lift-growth
Quote from: Centurion40 on October 29, 2015, 08:22:31 AM
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-29/china-abandons-three-decade-old-one-child-policy-to-lift-growth
Thanks. Just saw the headline on Fox, too.
Ah, maybe this is what I was thinking of:
QuoteSoon after it was first implemented, rural couples were allowed two children if their first-born was a girl. In November 2013, the party announced that it would also allow couples to have two children if one of the parents is a single child, the first substantial easing of the policy in nearly three decades.
source: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/10/29/china-decides-to-end-remaining-1-child-policy-allowing-all-couples-to-have-2/?intcmp=hpbt3
not the Chinese but still...
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-jets-buzz-uss-ronald-reagan/ar-BBmzwIi?li=AAa0dzB&ocid=mailsignout
Quote from: GDS_Starfury on October 29, 2015, 05:42:06 PM
not the Chinese but still...
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-jets-buzz-uss-ronald-reagan/ar-BBmzwIi?li=AAa0dzB&ocid=mailsignout
Article quote:
Quote from: article
Russian aircraft have made a habit over the last year of using its aircraft to test international boundaries by violating the airspace of other countries and approaching U.S. and NATO ships in what the U.S. have previously described as "provocative" action.
That's wrong.
The Russkies resumed pushing their bombers into CVBG and national airspace a decade ago, or more. On Putin's watch, of course.
Quote from: Centurion40 on October 28, 2015, 02:27:50 PM
So the commie leadership is going to provoke a war to take people's minds off of internal problems.
Sound like the same thinking as WW2.
Quote from: jomni on October 30, 2015, 09:46:13 PM
Quote from: Centurion40 on October 28, 2015, 02:27:50 PM
So the commie leadership is going to provoke a war to take people's minds off of internal problems.
Sound like the same thinking as WW2.
It's a time-honored tradition.
Some stats on the Chinese one-child policy.
I knew it was bad. Didn't know it was this bad.
QuotePeople have responsibility to provide for both their parents and children during their working-aged years, which makes a boy much more desirable due to expanded career opportunities. Numbers show that 120 males are born per 100 females — by far the most skewed ratio in the world.
source: http://dailycaller.com/2015/10/29/the-insane-numbers-that-explain-why-china-abolished-its-one-child-policy/
OK, nice and quiet this morning. Time to go back and read what I had not.
Quote from: Steelgrave on October 28, 2015, 01:19:21 PM
The party is facing severe and endlessly increasing systematic stress on all fronts:
1. Increasing external oppositions from all other countries in the world including all of China's neighbours. They are forming more and more alliances and becoming more outspoken with rising strengths against China, in addition to increasing anti-China sentiment from people in all other countries. Many countries including Canada and Australia and U.S. have just tightened their immigration policy to prevent Chinese from entering their countries. Even on these casual internet message boards, when you look past the paid Chinese propaganda professional commenters, you notice rising general anti-China feelings from all over the world.
Hold up.
The US just tightened its immigration policy to "prevent Chinese from entering?" What planet is this guy living on? Has there been some major immigration policy shift no one is talking about? Maybe, but I don't think so.
Quote2. Increasing internal severe and massive violent social unrest and anti-CCP mutiny from people of all Chinese living places. To beat down internal dissent in mainland China, the CCP every year is forced to spend even more money than on its massive military budget. All the semi-external places (Hong Kong, Xinjiang, Tibet, Macau) are fighting harder and harder to break free from China. Taiwan is for all practical purposes already a separate democratic country, and anti-China sentiment there (especially among younger Taiwanese generation) is at all-time high after seeing how China violently suppress Hong Kong as an example of "reunification". This whole situation is continuously worsened by the free flow of information, with Chinese people knowing more and more from travelling abroad and learning about truths from jumping beyond the "Great Fire Wall" on the internet.
"Taiwan is for all practical purposes already a separate democratic country"
Seriously? I'm starting to think this "think tank" needs to do less thinking and more traveling.
Of course Hong Kong and Macau are chafing under totalitarian rule - they were protected by and enjoyed the benefits of living under western rule/culture for centuries. <smh>
Quote3. Its own economy and social system never able to advance to higher level beyond mass skill-less manufacturing, due to complete absence of law and common morals. High technology and innovations and scientific development all require many citizens working together voluntarily contributing long term in a system they trust, with things like rule of law, no censorship on knowledge, no restrictions on speech and expression, copyrights, patents, common morals when collaborating and trading with each other etc. These qualities are all destroyed in modern China by the CCP. When was the last time you heard an announcement of technology development or innovations or scientific breakthrough coming from a Chinese organization / company / university? You haven't because there ain't any. Unlike mass manufacturing factory work, high level human developments cannot be forced on or bought with a dictator's central planning. The only way modern China gets these things is from stealing and spying from all other countries, but that has become much more difficult since the whole world has caught on to their act.
Maybe. The Germans were able to make a lot of technical advances under totalitarian control during the 1930s and 40s. That a free society manages technical and intellectual collaboration better is something I'm sure is true, but this sounds like a guy complaining about lack of free thought rather than hard assessment of reality. As for his question:
"When was the last time you heard an announcement of technology development or innovations or scientific breakthrough coming from a Chinese organization / company / university? "
Flying sub anyone? :2funny:
QuoteThis systematic fatal flaw is why you do not see even one Chinese brand or company that can compete in the international market in any industry of the human race. For example Lenovo, who is already one of the few Chinese brands some people may have heard of, cannot make either the chips that power their computers or the operating system that run them, so it is just one of many plain vanilla boxmakers without any competitive advantage. Another example Huawei is blacklisted by many countries and international customers because everyone knows Huawei's products send all communication data back to the CCP. This is also why China cannot produce even one home-grown science Nobel Prize winner in its history. No rule of law in China also means no people or businesses, both Chinese and foreign, ever invest in China long-term or on a large scale because everything frequently change on a whim along with the political climate. No one trusts any contract or agreement in China because they are always broken by the Chinese and there is no legal protection whatsoever, meaning China can never advance to a knowledge economy or service economy. No rule of law also ensures Shanghai fail to become a financial city despite the CCP dumping huge resources into it for 30 years.
I am wary of platitudes like "you do not see even one Chinese brand or company that can compete in the international market"
I won't argue the Chinese aren't stealing most of their tech, nor that IPR is a joke there. But in a country with a quarter of the world's population it's statistically impossible that there isn't a single competitive company over there.
Quote4. China's mass skill-less manufacturing itself is going away to other countries due to sharply increasing costs and openly hostile and unfair business environment full of frauds and sanctioned protectionism and government robberies. The labor force is endlessly more demanding both in wages and benefits expectations and working conditions, especially since all of today's Chinese workers are single child used to coddling and indulgement by their own family. It is further worsened by the rise of robotic automatic manufacturing and 3D printing. This situation is a death knock to the "growth-based legitimacy" of the CCP, which is the only thing CCP can rely on for continuing ruling power. For sure Chinese people tolerate the CCP when the economy seemingly explodes, but when one day it crashes and the country's hopeless bad shape hit them in the face the people's "support" for the CCP will turn on a dime.
Maybe.
As incomes rise over there I'm sure they'll find it more difficult to compete against lower wages in other places. However, there is a large infrastructure that has been built up in China that doesn't exist in many other lower-wage countries. Africa is full of people who might be interested in earning wages higher than they make now which are still lower than those in China. But without the streets, electricity, laws, ports, roads, etc. we aren't going to see a mass migration of capital out of China into, say, Sudan.
QuoteSince six months ago, all the major economic indicators for China have gone on a continuing nosedive - including manufacturing orders, export volume, commercial investments, graduate employment rate, corporate credits, foreign capital inflow, domestic consumptions, real estate prices, consumer spendings, luxury goods demand, HSBC Service PMI, survey of business sentiments etc. Suddenly all the rich Chinese tourists gobbling up luxury goods at different world cities seem to have disappeared altogether. The CCP is on its last resort of printing literally trillions of worthless renminbi to dump into the economy, causing way more long-term harm than short-term help, and when that is over there is nothing else the CCP can do to prop up the failing economy. China currently ranks 82nd on GDP per capita and that is the highest it can go before falling sharply in the coming near future.
That glide path has been obvious for more than the last six months, but it is generally true that China has been cooking its books for a while.
Quote5. Fierce unstoppable purges and mutually-destructive infighting among different factions within the party, who are imprisoning and killing each other every day. This power grab goes on under the laughable thin guise of "anti-corruption drive" when everyone knows all officials in china are corrupted. No work to manage the country or guide the ship is being done while this is going on.
That's a bit opaque to me but sounds plausible. Hardly new in a totalitarian regime, however. Sounds like this guy just fell off the turnip truck to me.
Quote6. Its many previously-suppressed fatal problems have all grown too big to be contained all catching up to the CCP e.g.
- severe carcinogenic poisonous pollution everywhere in air and water and soil and their own food etc, with the WHO issuing multiple warnings on Chinese population having the fastest cancer growth rate in the whole world
- skyrocketing unrepayable bad debts of all kinds everywhere, its true scope no one on Earth knows because all data from China are faked
- biggest housing bubble in human history, in addition to innumerous crumbling "ghost cities" and shoddily-built vanity project "GDP-creating" infrastructure that cannot and will not be used
- rapidly aging demographics with a 140:100 male:female ratio (from one child policy, culture of "leftover women", and many Chinese families killing their own daughters so as to chase boys)
- world's no.1 wealth inequality, with a Gini coefficient rivaling 18th century France just before the French revolution
- complete absence of soft power / cultural influence / social attraction, partly due to CCP censorship. One result of which is minimal and sharply dwindling number of foreign professionals and tourists and students going to China. It also means the CCP only has force as the only tool to use on the international stage
- all Chinese chasing foreign-brand goods and services while ditching low-quality Chinese-brands, who have a well known history of poisoning their own food and their own baby formula so as to make more money. This dashs CCP's hope to build indigenous industries and a domestic consumption economy
- corruptions and fraud throughout the whole rotten core of a system
- desperate mass exodus at all levels of Chinese society to escape the country using emigration or buying houses / study abroad or marriage to foreigners or plain old human smuggling, resulting in all able Chinese leaving taking huge amounts of talents and money out of the country
- the law of large numbers, "middle-income trap" and "Minsky moment" all work against the growth-based legitimacy CCP desperately needs for its survival
That's a nice laundry list of the problems in China. The most interesting thing I see out of that list is that he lists the ration of men to women as 140:100 as opposed to 120:100 in the post I cited above. I'm not going to hazard a guess as to which is right and which is wrong, but it is worth noting that the guy on the inside thinks is much more severe.
QuoteMost importantly, the CCP knows that if 1.4 billion Chinese learn about basic human qualities such as morals, truth, justice, human rights, rule of law, fairness, freedom, universal values etc the CCP will be toppled very quickly. Therefore its state-controlled brainwashing education and propaganda machinations ensure a complete lack of morals and regard for laws in all Chinese growing up and beyond. This results in failure in all basic aspects of human interactions with every modern Chinese, whether it is business trading / personal dealings / technology development / creating innovations / human communications / scientific research / artistic expressions / teamwork collaborations / academic exchange etc. Another propaganda brainwashing technique used by the CCP is to make all Chinese people pathologically nationalistic and very emotional on this issue, so the CCP can always create and point to some "foreign enemies" so as to hide all the domestic crises and government robberies going on. This attention-diverting technique is the same trick magicians have used for more than a thousand years to fool their audience.
An interesting example would be the Chinese reaction to this report - they are expected to dismiss this report as total rubbish, accuse the author "unpatriotic" for saying the truth, shout China will only become richer and stronger than all other countries, yet they will give no counter-arguments and they will make no acknowledgement to the horrible factual conditions and complete lack of basic human qualities listed above in modern China. Ironically, the longer Chinese people deny or refuse to acknowledge the CCP problem, the longer they are only digging themselves into the hole and hurting themselves for any chance of recovery, causing the chinese economy to crash even further. Consider the example of Google, Facebook, Wikipedia, Youtube, Whatsapp, Twitter, Instagram etc - these services are all completely blocked in China while at the same time the rest of the planet are on these services every second communicating ideas with each other, making friends, exchanging knowledge, doing business, working together, improving science and technology and arts, and advancing humanity.
Quite possibly. Tiananmen Square seems to support that point of view.
QuoteSome people say China economically developed a lot in past 20 years, but the truth is this "development" is actually debt borrowed against the future. After the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre of their own students, in order to survive and hang on to power, the CCP was forced to pursue short-term explosive economic growth that sacrifice everything else, including a foundation or potential for long-term economic and social development. This "scorched earth" policy is like winning the lottery for corrupted CCP officials who can rob a lot of money from the country in the short-term before escaping to America. The only entity left to suffer is China's future from this point on, a country that has been turned by the CCP into a place with no law, no morals, no system for future scientific or economic or social development, no spiritual support apart from money, no trust or cooperation among Chinese, no trust or goodwill from foreigners, no other country as friends, all resources sold away cheaply, entire environment and air and water and soil and food fatally polluted, only social recognition is to make a lot of money for "face", no creativity or personal development for Chinese young people, a populus not allowed to know the truths and not allowed to say the truths.
The end result is that majority wealth of this "debt borrowed against the future" has gone to the 0.000000001% elite ruling class "princeling" CCP families (about 250 of them) who have already smuggled trillions of dollars abroad along with their U.S. passports and their own children (all Chinese elites and Politburo members hold foreign passports, with U.S. and U.K. being the most sought after choice). For the CCP in 1989, 1.4 billion people is great central-planning asset when the country start from nothing and you order them to do backbreaking mass manufacturing repetitive factory work 20 hours a day without workers protection of any kind. But in the 2014 borderless knowledge economy when that no longer works, 1.4 billion immoral and uncooperative and selfish and undeveloped and angry Chinese contained in a lawless system without any hopes of growth is very, very dangerous liability for the CCP.
All debts against the future have to be paid back - China is no exception. That moment may arrive a bit later than expected but it surely will come, as it has on 100% of occasions in human history. In normal countries bad conditions correct themselves with short periods of market ups and downs, but in China the CCP suppress all problems and criticisms until inevitable system meltdown. For China the moment has arrived to suffer the consequences for all its own chosen actions in past 30 years. All the festering fundamental systematic problems listed above and much more, are only getting worse and worse everyday until one day when the system can suddenly no longer bear.
Think USSR in 1989.
Yup. There is going to be a price for cooking the books, subsidizing corruption, and generally mismanaging their economy and people.
Will this year be the year? I don't know. But there will be some rough seas ahead.
Good breakdown, LB. I tend to agree with your points. I would be very interested in who this dude is and what his qualifications are, but even without that I thought it made for interesting reading. Kinda wish he would sign up here at Grogheads, might make for a good back and fourth 8)
One of my Dad's best friends for many years is a Chinese (not Taiwanese) import/exporter with multi-citizenship in America (here in West TN, at the county capital) and in Toronto, Canada. His family definitely lives here or in Toronto.
While I haven't ever heard him talk about such things in detail (directly or secondhand through Dad), I can add some validation of the general assessments of the article.
Ditto from a Chinaphile missionary author friend of mine, who loves the country and the culture and the people, and visits for a few weeks to study (and I suspect to visit secret house churches) whenever he gets the chance. (He's got a good reputation with the government for his role back in student days of helping find and return mainland Chinese girls sold into Taiwanese prostitution.) I'm not sure he wouldn't say the male/female breeding-age ratio is worse than 140:100; that ratio would include all ages! Of course the goal was to reverse unsustainable population growth, so in that sense the policy could be considered a win?
More Chinese deployments in the South China Sea
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/chinese-j-11-fighters-deployed-to-woody-island-in-south-1739919796
Quote from: mirth on November 03, 2015, 11:35:11 AM
More Chinese deployments in the South China Sea
How many got splashed?
Hehehehehehe... he said "Woody"... ahhhhahahahahahaha!
(https://7chan.org/vg/src/144106090069.jpg)
QuoteChina has built a second 12,000-ton Coast Guard cutter, the largest cutter in the service of any coast guard in the world. The ship is as large as a U.S. Navy destroyer and will be used for maritime search and rescue, law enforcement, and territorial boundary marking.
The two cutters, CCG 2901 and CCG 3901, were built in Shanghai's Jiangnan Shipyard. Each features a single 76-millimeter cannon in the bow, two machine gun or light cannon mounts on the superstructure, and a hangar and landing pad for helicopters. The ships can zoom up to 25 knots.
The huge size of the cutters has raised some eyebrows. While Coast Guard cutters do spend extended periods of time at sea and travel long distances, they don't really need to displace 12,000 tons. Because they're primarily law enforcement ships, cutters don't need warship-quality sensors and heavy weapons that increase overall weight. The U.S. Coast Guard's latest National Security Cutters, for example, weigh only 4,600 tons.
The most likely explanation for China's colossal vessels, then, is simply that they are meant to be bigger and more intimidating than other ships when they show up in disputed territory. China currently has disputes with more than half a dozen neighboring nations in the East and South China Seas. Countries on both sides of the dispute often "show the flag" in these areas with Coast Guard ships, which is less inflammatory than sending warships.
source: http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a18990/china-launches-second-monster-coast-guard-cutter/
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That's a Big-Ass Cutter. :o
I'm sure it's intent is purely altruistic.
If it's made like everything else in China we won't have to worry about it in three months.
We'll be hungry for a new cutter by then anyway.
Ha(n)!
These cutters are larger than a Burke class destroyer.
They train their national ping pong team on board... moar challenge on rolling seas.
I like that one.
Coastal? Those are long range sea-faring boats. They are guarding more than the coast now.
The Chinese pretty much define the entire Pacific Rim as their coast.
All the way to San Diego...
Yes, they claim a 5000 mile Nautical Limit. :P
China subscribes to the 12-mile limit. Everything beyond 12 miles of everyone else's coast Are Belong To China.
Everything within 12 miles of their Coast Guard belongs to China.
And to make it easier for everyone, they're making their ships 12 miles in size.
So, according to them, they have claims on Hawaii, Alaska, California, and Washington?
Give them Cali. It'd serve them right.
Hey, we're not just going to roll over
http://breakingdefense.com/2016/01/us-will-push-harder-on-chinese-territorial-claims-pacom/
Quote from: Staggerwing on January 20, 2016, 08:04:46 AM
China subscribes to the 12-mile limit. Everything beyond 12 miles of everyone else's coast Are Belong To China.
;D
Quote from: Sir Slash on January 20, 2016, 01:04:12 PM
Give them Cali. It'd serve them right.
Why do you think I left Oregon off the list. :P
China already has colonists in countries like Ghana or Tanzania, which has caused a lot of disquiet for native Africans. The People's Republic of China should rebrand with something more appropriate - Imperial China - seems to fit.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-18901656
http://www.cesfd.org.cn/magzine/ch/China%20in%20Africa.pdf
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/china-in-africa-the-new-imperialists
http://www.economist.com/news/books-and-arts/21613162-mass-immigration-chinese-people-africa-almost-entirely-driven-money
http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/apr/23/influx-chinese-goldminers-tensions-ghana
More FON fun
http://news.yahoo.com/us-warship-sailed-waters-off-island-claimed-china-005832507.html?nf=1
Quote from: mirth on January 31, 2016, 07:32:40 AM
More FON fun
http://news.yahoo.com/us-warship-sailed-waters-off-island-claimed-china-005832507.html?nf=1
We should sail an entire Carrier Battle Group through there to reinforce the point. Best send the Chinese some complimentary boxes of Depends first.
Complimentary? No way. Charge them!
The US needs to face off China now, while it still can. In 10 years it will be a very tough prospect, with economic and military dominance growing as it is.
Reading about mass Chinese immigration loyal to China's Communist party made me think. What if localised Chinese populations start to outnumber the native populations in Africa (or elsewhere)? If they have voting power in "democracies" they may get direct representation, or at least strong pressure on national governments to jump whatever way Beijing wants. This could seriously undermine the interest of other countries, as well as undermine the US's lead as global superpower.
The face-off is coming. I agree that sooner is better than later. I'm not sure that 10 years is the window, but I also don't see us pursuing a 600 ship fleet to bury the ChiComms.
The Chinese economy is in a lot worse shape than most people realize. Commodity prices is a good place to start looking. If their economy was growing as they claim, commodity prices wouldn't be in the crapper.
I heard something interesting the other day. They've put a hard floor on the price of oil. I think its $40 right now. They're using the extra money to try and clean up their environmental mess. That means that Chinese and Chinese companies are paying more for oil than we are right now. Those little things start to add up that may slow their economy down more.
http://breakingdefense.com/2016/01/mccain-praises-new-navy-challenge-to-china-in-paracel-islands/ (http://breakingdefense.com/2016/01/mccain-praises-new-navy-challenge-to-china-in-paracel-islands/)
Quote"The US isn't really challenging any Chinese maritime claims, and in fact is helping to support them by conducting an innocent passage, which is allowed within 12 miles of someone else's territory," said Bryan Clark, a former top aide to the Chief of Naval Operations. "If the U.S. wanted to challenge China's and other's claims, the ship would conduct 'military operations' such as running radars or conducting helo ops. It did not do this."
Mirth is right. If you follow a policy of appeasement with totalitarian regimes you will either fight at a disadvantage, or be overrun.
This really hit home with me when I watched BBC's This World: The war room. Lady Falkner scared me the most. I just hope she was playing a character role (and not presenting her real views): An appeaser to despots, and unwilling to launch nukes when she knew civilian centres were subject to nuclear launches. She came across as a moral coward who should not be let anywhere near a war room. I expect had the situation been real, and she remained in the character played she would also be happy to be part of a Quisling government too. Just scary.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06zw32h
Quisling...haven't heard that name in a while.
Dins't we recently spot him at a dinner party with that other guy, Adolf Schickle-something-or-other? IIRC, they talked a lot of politics...
China continues to get frisky.
The report goes on to say that these are HQ-9's, similar to Russia's S-300.
QuoteThe Chinese military has deployed an advanced surface-to-air missile system to one of its contested islands in the South China Sea according to civilian satellite imagery exclusively obtained by Fox News, more evidence that China is increasingly "militarizing" its islands in the South China Sea and ramping up tensions in the region.
The imagery from ImageSat International (ISI) shows two batteries of eight surface-to-air missile launchers as well as a radar system on Woody Island, part of the Paracel Island chain in the South China Sea.
It is the same island chain where a U.S. Navy destroyer sailed close to another contested island a few weeks ago. China at the time vowed "consequences" for the action.
source: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/02/16/exclusive-china-sends-surface-to-air-missiles-to-contested-island-in-provocative-move.html?intcmp=hpbt1
An excellent test target for a rail gun.
Chinese Detection/Defense Capabilities in the South China Sea
https://csis.cartodb.com/viz/4c461308-d73e-11e5-9a49-0e3ff518bd15/embed_map
They're pissing off Indonesia now who is trying to be neutral.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-22/frantic-phone-call-failed-to-contain-china-indonesia-sea-spat
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/100-chinese-boats-ships/2635994.html
Is there any longstanding historic justification for China claiming 80% of the South China Sea, or is it just the school bully who hasn't learnt to share?
It's an agressively expansionist communist dictatorship that thinks they can get away with it and so far has.
Quote from: mirth on March 25, 2016, 04:07:19 PM
It's an aggressively expansionist communist dictatorship that thinks they can get away with it and so far has.
Yep. It's the "might makes right" card. They are right until proven wrong. And considering how they ignore both international law and condemnation, there is only one way to prove them wrong.
Steelie, adopt me or marry me. Or both.
^He's my dad. So that would make us brothers. Which we kind of are already. So I guess it changes nothing. BRAH.
Great minds think alike, what more can I say? O0
No. Doesn't anybody listen to Obama? It's like the Russians in Syria. They're acting out of.... weakness. Lets hope they don't open a can of Weak-ass on us.
"Weakass", lol..... ;D
Steelie for President! Yay! :D ;)
Quote from: Boggit on March 27, 2016, 08:19:36 AM
Steelie for President! Yay! :D ;)
I don't want the job, which by all rights makes me a better candidate than those who are running ::)
Quote from: Steelgrave on March 27, 2016, 08:40:33 AM
Quote from: Boggit on March 27, 2016, 08:19:36 AM
Steelie for President! Yay! :D ;)
I don't want the job, which by all rights makes me a better candidate than those who are running ::)
;D
Quote from: Boggit on March 25, 2016, 04:04:29 PM
Is there any longstanding historic justification for China claiming 80% of the South China Sea, or is it just the school bully who hasn't learnt to share?
Ancient China owned the place before any other nation existed.
Here's the serious answer:
https://www.quora.com/Whats-Chinas-basis-of-the-9-dash-line
Modern China, of course, is not at all ancient China, except when they think it's to their advantage. :P
Ain't life a bitch! The Chinese don't like it so much when others do what they're doing.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/japan-opens-radar-station-close-to-disputed-isles-drawing-angry-china-response/ar-BBr1fPf?ocid=spartanntp
Quote
Japan on Monday switched on a radar station in the East China Sea, giving it a permanent intelligence gathering post close to Taiwan and a group of islands disputed by Japan and China, drawing an angry response from Beijing.
The new Self Defence Force base on the island of Yonaguni is at the western extreme of a string of Japanese islands in the East China Sea, 150 km (90 miles) south of the disputed islands known as the Senkaku islands in Japan and the Diaoyu in China.
China has raised concerns with its neighbors and in the West with its assertive claim to most of the South China Sea where the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan and Brunei have overlapping claims. Japan has long been mired in a territorial dispute with China over the East China Sea islands.
"Until yesterday, there was no coastal observation unit west of the main Okinawa island. It was a vacuum we needed to fill," said Daigo Shiomitsu, a Ground Self Defence Force lieutenant colonel who commands the new base on Yonaguni.
"It means we can keep watch on territory surrounding Japan and respond to all situations."
Shiomitsu on Monday attended a ceremony at the base with 160 military personnel and around 50 dignitaries. Construction of some buildings, which feature white walls and traditional Okinawan red-tiled roofs, is still unfinished.
The 30-sq-km (11-sq-mile) island is home to 1,500 people, who mostly raise cattle and grow sugar cane. The Self Defence Force contingent and family members will increase the population by a fifth.
"This radar station is going to irritate China," said Nozomu Yoshitomi, a professor at Nihon University and a retired major general in the Self Defence Force.
In addition to being a listening post, the facility could be used a base for military operations in the region, he added.
China's defense ministry, in a statement sent to Reuters about the radar station, said the international community needed to be on high alert to Japan's military expansion.
"The Diaoyu Islands are China's inherent territory. We are resolutely opposed to any provocative behavior by Japan aimed at Chinese territory," it said.
"The activities of Chinese ships and aircraft in the relevant waters and airspace are completely appropriate and legal."
The listening post fits into a wider military build-up along the island chain, which stretches 1,400 km (870 miles) from the Japanese mainland.
Policy makers last year told Reuters it was part of a strategy to keep China at bay in the Western Pacific as Beijing gains control of the South China Sea.
Toshi Yoshihara, a U.S. Naval War College professor, said Yonaguni sits next to two potential flashpoints in Asia - Taiwan and the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands.
"A network of overlapping radar sites along the island chain would boost Japan's ability to monitor the East China Sea," he added.
Yonaguni is only around 100 km (62 miles) east of Taiwan, near the edge of a controversial air defense identification zone set up by China in 2013.
Over the next five years, Japan will increase its Self Defence Force in the East China Sea by about a fifth to almost 10,000 personnel, including missile batteries that will help Japan draw a defensive curtain along the island chain.
Chinese ships sailing from their eastern seaboard must pass through this barrier to reach the Western Pacific, access to which Beijing needs both as a supply line to the rest of the world's oceans and for naval power projection.
Gee, there is no shortage of irony in this statement, coming from the Chinese:
China's defense ministry, in a statement sent to Reuters about the radar station, said the international community needed to be on high alert to Japan's military expansion.
Quote from: Steelgrave on March 29, 2016, 10:46:09 AM
Gee, there is no shortage of irony in this statement, coming from the Chinese:
China's defense ministry, in a statement sent to Reuters about the radar station, said the international community needed to be on high alert to Japan's military expansion.
The ChiComms are real comedians :2funny:
We're really getting tough now. China might not be invited to participate in RIMPAC.
http://breakingdefense.com/2016/03/weighing-how-much-intel-us-gets-hawaiian-lawmaker-calls-to-bar-china-from-rimpac/
If they really want to get their attention, Obama should threaten to go over there and dance the Tango. Don't laugh. It would work for me.
Quote from: jomni on March 27, 2016, 09:54:45 PM
Quote from: Boggit on March 25, 2016, 04:04:29 PM
Is there any longstanding historic justification for China claiming 80% of the South China Sea, or is it just the school bully who hasn't learnt to share?
Ancient China owned the place before any other nation existed.
Here's the serious answer:
https://www.quora.com/Whats-Chinas-basis-of-the-9-dash-line
So basically they sent some ships to explore the area, and they thought that entitled them to claim sovereignty over whatever they found? We did that with the British Empire, but found that the people we did that to didn't really like it very much, preferring to rule themselves. One big reason why the British Empire doesn't exist today. Have the Chinese not cottoned on to the fact that imperialism belongs in the past, and doesn't sit well with their earlier dogma about imperialism?
It's only Imperialism if the other guy is doing it to you. :coolsmiley:
Quote from: Sir Slash on March 29, 2016, 09:58:09 PM
It's only Imperialism if the other guy is doing it to you. :coolsmiley:
Well exactly!
The Chinese seem to forget that the Malay tribes, Vietnamese (Annam, Champa etc), Cambodians, Filipino, and Borneo tribes all explored and ruled these seas from equally early times. So on the basis sovereignty = exploration, I'd say they had as much right in any sovereignty issue, as the Chinese. Of course the real issue is who can enforce their will (as opposed to any legal definition of the issue, which is clearly arguable by all parties). I suspect might is right.
Not about Chinese Navy. But borders are irrelevant.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/13/china-says-abducted-taiwanese--suspected-of-fraud/
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/04/14/world/asia/ap-as-united-states-philippines.html
Note to the Phillipines: We HAD a base there protecting your asses until you told us to close it and go home. Just saying.
Quote from: Sir Slash on April 14, 2016, 10:04:48 AM
Note to the Phillipines: We HAD a base there protecting your asses until you told us to close it and go home. Just saying.
They started to rethink that decision a few years ago when the ChiComms started getting frisky. They're scrambling to create a credible deterrent. Suddenly having us around doesn't seem like such a bad thing.
I'd like to know how big of a hit their economy due to closing the US bases. I knew a couple of guys when I was in the Navy that were planning on retiring there. Got to think the may have changed their minds after the bases closed.
Times they are a changin
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/24/world/asia/vietnam-us-arms-embargo-obama.html
I'd seen that the other day Mirth. One thing I noticed, is that there has been zero reaction out of congress, whether in support or opposition to this move. Did Obama break his normal routine and get closed door buy in from congress or was this another unilateral decision the most of congress agrees with.
If I missed something in this article or someone has found something else, let me know.
He's being criticized by both China and Human Rights Watch, so he must be doing something right :P
Haven't heard a peep out of Congress about it one way or the other which is very odd.
Joint carrier strike group ops in WestPac
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http://www.cpf.navy.mil/news.aspx/040033 (http://www.cpf.navy.mil/news.aspx/040033)
Damn, Obama lets them exercise? Think of all the Global Warming that causes!
The Navy is very environmentally conscious
http://greenfleet.dodlive.mil/energy/great-green-fleet/ (http://greenfleet.dodlive.mil/energy/great-green-fleet/)
I wonder if they still just toss all the ships garbage overboard like we did back in the 80's.
^HA I am actually really curious now as to what Navy garbage policy is at sea...
Quote from: Gusington on June 21, 2016, 05:43:15 PM
^HA I am actually really curious now as to what Navy garbage policy is at sea...
They still dump a lot of things overboard. Some of it gets incinerated and some gets hauled back for disposal ashore.
^HA I am sure it does.
I would use the new Chinese "islands" as a dumping ground. Pull a fat a$$ carrier near and let 'er rip O:-)
I'm sure those 'islands' could handle a few kilotons of our waste.
Quote from: Gusington on June 21, 2016, 05:50:19 PM
^HA I am sure it does.
Last thing the Navy wants is trouble with the Obama EPA.
Quote from: mirth on June 21, 2016, 05:55:20 PM
Quote from: Gusington on June 21, 2016, 05:50:19 PM
^HA I am sure it does.
Last thing the Navy wants is trouble with the Obama EPA.
Good point. They are more dangerous to democracy than the Chinese.
Full disclosure: my uncle worked for the EPA for 25+ years. Don't give them too much credit. They're as screwed up as the rest of the agencies.
Is your uncle Walter Peck?
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F66.media.tumblr.com%2F8c6866c5ca5e0e14564c552e73b194be%2Ftumblr_nsbdcfkGK21qfwau4o1_500.jpg&hash=c1df4d1a34c4eb2c5adcbcf9d55347ce956003ef)
^My uncle is far cooler than Dickless here.
Quote from: Gusington on June 21, 2016, 08:59:34 PM
^My uncle is far cooler than Dickless here.
I figured as much, but you brought up the EPA connection.
Only because you made the Obama EPA sound like the Sith.
Quote from: Gusington on June 21, 2016, 09:14:37 PM
Only because you made the Obama EPA sound like the Sith.
I find your lack of AGW Faith disturbing....
Quote from: Barthheart on June 21, 2016, 07:44:12 PM
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If you shaved Donald Trump's a$$ and made him walk backwards, it would look like this pic.
Quote from: Steelgrave on June 21, 2016, 09:43:19 PM
Quote from: Barthheart on June 21, 2016, 07:44:12 PM
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If you shaved Donald Trump's a$$ and made him walk backwards, it would look like this pic.
You didn't say the Magic Word...
please? Or are you talking about Star's "safe" word???
I actually got in trouble for supposedly not reporting the flight deck guys for throwing big barrels of paint overboard.
I was standing man overboard watch on the port quarter. I had a life preserver (for throwing to a man overboard), a dye thingamajig (for marking the spot where the man went overboard), and a sound powered phone (for calling the bridge to report the man overboard).
An Airdale came down from the flight deck and told me that they were going to throw some scrap metal over the side, so I shouldn't get concerned when I saw some splashes. I said "that's fine". A few minutes later, 3 big barrels (50 gallons each?) of paint land in the water. These dirtbags didn't feel like re-stowing the paint when they were done with it, so they just tossed it. The lids immediately popped off all 3 cans (surely not anticipated by the scumballs) and 3 big nasty oil based paint slicks immediately spread over the water (3 different colors).
I immediately got on the phone to report it but wasn't allowed to get the words out. The BM2 monitoring the phones on the bridge just repeatedly yelled at me to keep my mouth shut unless I saw a man overboard. Five minutes later some chief showed up at my watch station to yell at me for not reporting the guys. :tickedoff: He absolutely refused to believe that I had tried and so I had to go to "Captains Mast". Fortunately I was able to avoid punishment because I hadn't been formally checked out on the watch, which just meant that I signed some checklist to prove that I knew what to do with all the equipment that I listed earlier in this post.
Hopefully you used the magic word.
I remember that. It happened in the.... RED Sea, right? ;D Or was it the YELLOW Sea? Or BLACK, or WHITE or.... WHATEVER.
So what to do now? Of course this will be ignored.
http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/no-legal-basis-for-china-to-claim-historic-rights-to-resources-in-sea-areas-within-nine#xtor=CS1-10
http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/live-blog-the-hague-ruling-on-the-south-china-sea-dispute#xtor=CS1-10
Well that should make them pack-up and head back to Shang-hai right away. ;D
Quote from: jomni on July 12, 2016, 06:00:52 AM
So what to do now? Of course this will be ignored.
http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/no-legal-basis-for-china-to-claim-historic-rights-to-resources-in-sea-areas-within-nine#xtor=CS1-10
http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/live-blog-the-hague-ruling-on-the-south-china-sea-dispute#xtor=CS1-10
At least the non-Chinese powers are trying to resolve things peaceably. Vietnam comes out of the diplomatic row very well. But I fear you are right. I cannot see China holding back for long on its Imperial ambitions. Let's not forget that this is a country which is not democratic, and for whom the rule of law is a flexible notion.
Even Taiwan is not backing down on claims. I guess the 9-dash line is a Kuomintang concoction.
Quote from: jomni on July 12, 2016, 05:16:12 PM
Even Taiwan is not backing down on claims. I guess the 9-dash line is a Kuomintang concoction.
Well good for them! O0
We all know how appeasement went in the 1930's. It's
good "against the will of the people" that other South East Asian countries are standing up for themselves against
a despotic imperialist power the
People's Republic of China.
Not that it's run for the benefit of the Party élite and their friends. That would be a de facto pseudo aristocracy in charge ;) ::)
http://breakingdefense.com/2016/08/chinese-threaten-japan-australia-over-south-china-sea-time-for-us-fon-ops/
This should piss off the ChiComms
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/8296/japan-to-sail-carrier-into-south-china-sea-in-massive-show-of-force
I'm sure the Chinese will feel better when they remember Japan has no aircraft carriers....officially.
And no 'Navy.'
That's right! So when something other than a navy shows up with something other than aircraft carriers, who are the Chinese gonna believe? The Japanese or their own lying eyes? O0
Just like those planes and missiles the Chinese promised wouldn't be put on the islands they built. Must be a Asian Reverse Logic thing. :idiot2:
According to the Chinese they didn't build any islands....they simply raised the islands which were already there above sea level :uglystupid2:
Not aircraft carriers...helicopter carriers.
Helicopters are not aircraft? Next thing you'll tell me is bees can't fly.
Quote from: Gusington on April 18, 2017, 12:17:04 PM
Not aircraft carriers...helicopter carriers.
Helicopter carrying destroyers.
Quote from: mirth on April 18, 2017, 03:27:07 PM
Quote from: Gusington on April 18, 2017, 12:17:04 PM
Not aircraft carriers...helicopter carriers.
Helicopter carrying destroyers.
Pocket aircraft carriers?
Angry fighty boats
Helicopter Mc Angry Boat-Face. >:(
GoBots
Broadside
"Get to da Chopper Carrier"! :P
Wait til the Chinese find out the helicopter destroyer is carrying both Airwolf and Blue Thunder.
It is? That would be awesome.
I was thinking a "Helicopter Carrier" should be able to fly right? I mean shouldn't it have propellers come out the top and then lift-off into the sky? Fly over land to the next body of water then land there. Seems simple to me.
Who says it can't? If they can turn Yamato into a Space Battleship, why not?
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.googleusercontent.com%2F-LTPEnDmExeY%2FUD67StfTSqI%2FAAAAAAAB_gU%2FiJonDIokfYo%2Fs900%2Fz42.jpg&hash=8336652c4db2215691ad03f71ba396cb377fccf7)
You knew this was coming, right? Just need to paint some meatballs on the side and deck O0
I don't see any helicopters on that thing.
Wait til the Japanese revise their Constitution and you won't see any helicopters on Izumo either 8)
Quote from: Steelgrave on April 19, 2017, 10:05:41 AM
Wait til the Japanese revise their Constitution and you won't see any helicopters on Izumo either 8)
lol
As I recall, Shield didn't have too good of luck with those things. :'(
Quote from: Sir Slash on April 19, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
As I recall, Shield didn't have too good of luck with those things. :'(
And I question their effectiveness against Godzilla or other Kaiju.
Quote from: mirth on April 19, 2017, 12:28:44 PM
Quote from: Sir Slash on April 19, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
As I recall, Shield didn't have too good of luck with those things. :'(
And I question their effectiveness against Godzilla or other Kaiju.
Their support ships for Godzilla when they point him to China.
This is the moment the Japanese have been waiting for, for 70+ years.
Meanwhile, on a newly created island China works on a secret weapon to counter the Godzilla threat.......
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rolereboot.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F11%2FSoraya-king-kong.jpg&hash=3d8c6d8ade5bd8257bab7ab8e49d93a6640d265c)
She doesn't look particularly malicious.
Quote from: Gusington on April 19, 2017, 07:29:17 PM
She doesn't look particularly malicious.
They rarely do.
Nor does she look Chinese. More Brazillian I'd say. ::)
We can only hope.
Typical Grogs....no one even noticed the 500 foot ape in the pic 8)
The big hairy thing? I figured that was a Grog.
You got me there, brother....I got no where to go with that one. O0
Grog? I thought that was Michael Moore with his shirt off. :o Couldn't have been a Grog, he wasn't smiling. Grogs are 'happy' people. Just look at all the smiling avatars here. :)
Quote from: Sir Slash on April 20, 2017, 11:35:26 AM
Grogs are 'happy' people.
You either don't know many Grogs or you know some very unhappy non-Grogs.
Bit of both.
China launched its first home built carrier
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/25/world/asia/china-aircraft-carrier.html
Name it after a famous Chinese naval victory. Like The Battle of..............???????
Quote from: Sir Slash on April 26, 2017, 02:01:11 PM
Name it after a famous Chinese naval victory. Like The Battle of.............. ??? ??? ?
Sin King
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around 'People's Liberation Army Navy'
http://chinapower.csis.org/china-aircraft-carrier-type-001a/
Quote from: Gusington on April 26, 2017, 05:01:20 PM
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around 'People's Liberation Army Navy'
Most of the merchandise is cheap knock-off goods but they do have a few vintage gas masks and some authentic Mao hats in the back of the store.
I hope the damned thing is made out of their own drywall.
We should take 'Wings idea and open up both a web and brick and mortar Grog shop named People's Liberation Army Navy! The young hipster dufuses will come running with their cash!
They will all get cancer from the lead based paint they spread throughout the ship 8)
We should take 'Wings idea and open up both a web and brick and mortar Grog shop named People's Liberation Army Navy! The young hipster dufuses will come running with their cash!
Only if I get to shoot the mortar. At the hipster dufuses. :bd:
^ Wait til they make their purchases first!
Quote from: Steelgrave on April 27, 2017, 09:41:58 AM
They will all get cancer from the lead based paint they spread throughout the ship 8)
What makes you think they're going to bother painting the thing? They strike me as appreciating the rust aesthetic. :P
The games continue
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2017/06/09/US-bombers-fly-over-South-China-Sea-in-training-exercise/4661497014721/
Quote from: mirth on June 09, 2017, 12:56:16 PM
The games continue
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2017/06/09/US-bombers-fly-over-South-China-Sea-in-training-exercise/4661497014721/
Only two? I hope that's not all we could get into the air :P
being a Cold War kid, I do find it silly when reports of whatever aircraft from whatever country are going about their business and its international news.
I find real humor in the Tu-95 intercepts.
a fucking Bear.......
We're selling $1.4 billion worth of arms to Taiwan.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/29/us/politics/trump-china-weapons-taiwan.html
Big surprise
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18855/officials-admit-japans-helicopter-destroyers-were-also-designed-for-jets
Wow, who could'a seen that one coming! Japan's on the march! O0
The march towards what? Without US backing I think China would handily kick Japan's ass right now. It's the historical pendulum swinging back.
The Japanese can take care of themselves just fine.
They did last time and were beaten.
The Chinese aren't even close to pulling that off today.
If the fight was Japan vs. China, right now, without US help...Japan would have a hard time. Hell it wasn't a cake walk for them in WWII either, when they lost.
But today they would have Godzilla on their side. He was still asleep during WWII.
Hmm...didn't think of that.
Quote from: Gusington on February 27, 2018, 10:58:23 PM
If the fight was Japan vs. China, right now, without US help...Japan would have a hard time. Hell it wasn't a cake walk for them in WWII either, when they lost.
ummm... but they didnt lose to China. :arr:
They didn't beat them either.
Quote from: Gusington on February 28, 2018, 07:51:26 AM
They didn't beat them either.
To be fair, they were pretty distracted eventually with their other conquest plans.
Quote from: Gusington on February 27, 2018, 10:58:23 PM
If the fight was Japan vs. China, right now, without US help...Japan would have a hard time.
It depends on what you mean. Can Japan invade mainland China? Hell no.
Can Japan defend itself against China or hold it's on with the PLAN in the area? Yes, it can.
What I really wonder is if China can hold the islands it has built or would they be easily taken by a Japanese/US coalition. It would be a very close struggle.
Quote from: Gusington on March 01, 2018, 07:54:52 PM
What I really wonder is if China can hold the islands it has built or would they be easily taken by a Japanese/US coalition. It would be a very close struggle.
Those Chinese-made islands are really just super-sized sand bars. A couple of epic storms in a row could potentially erase them. Maybe a GW upside?
We don't really need to take them. We could level them with cruise missiles and prevent any reinforcement by sea or air.
I'm curious how intense Chinese resistance would be. Of course they talk a big game but how much of a threat are they truly? Moreso than 25 years ago but not nearly at the level of the US or even Russia yet. Another 25 years, who knows.
They're not lacking in cannon fodder.
Flip side of that is how much of a fight is Japan capable of...even with US partnership.
I would say China is a significant threat. I live in a town of less than 7,000 and there are 3 Chinese restaurants here. :o WHO is eating all that food they make? There must be more..... hidden..... close by. And.... they've already got their equipment prepositioned ahead of time sent over and stored in Wal-Mart. These guys have been thinking about this for a long time, as have I. :coolsmiley:
Quite.
https://twitter.com/CavasShips/status/970741167997554688
Quote from: Sir Slash on March 01, 2018, 11:02:11 PM
I would say China is a significant threat. I live in a town of less than 7,000 and there are 3 Chinese restaurants here. :o WHO is eating all that food they make? There must be more..... hidden..... close by. And.... they've already got their equipment prepositioned ahead of time sent over and stored in Wal-Mart. These guys have been thinking about this for a long time, as have I. :coolsmiley:
I think you're on to something. I mean, I can remember when my town only had one Mexican restaurant. Now we're talking about building a damn wall! 8)
Quote from: Centurion40 on May 26, 2015, 10:17:27 AM
Quote from: Steelgrave on May 26, 2015, 10:10:17 AM
I suspect we won't accept it. And about that Northwest Passage thing....sorry!
Meh. At least y'all are consistent.
Besides, we're not overly worried that you'll invade. Culturally and economically y'all took us decades ago! And I'm ok with that. I just wish that our dollars were in sync, so that I don't get hooped at the register the next time that the Mrs. drags me on a shopping spree to Kittery, or the family ambles down to Florida.
Trump could....
And resist the rebels you seditious un-Loyalist bastard >:D
They haven't been right in the head since Vietnam
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-defence/exclusive-satellite-images-reveal-show-of-force-by-chinese-navy-in-south-china-sea-idUSKBN1H3135
'Chinese carrier group' sounds weird.
People's Liberation Army Navy also sounds weird.
It's starting to feel like a bad Larry Bond book.
There are only bad Larry Bond books.
Quote from: mirth on March 27, 2018, 06:01:47 PM
People's Liberation Army Navy also sounds weird.
There's one of those over in Mystic, CT. They have sale coupons in the ValPac mailer almost every month. They also have a crap-load of musty camping gear for sale.
Quote from: mirth on March 27, 2018, 06:13:23 PM
There are only bad Larry Bond books.
Red Phoenix was good.
Cauldron was terrible. Wasn't great, more like Saturday matinee movie quality.
Thought Red Phoenix was meh. Clancy at his worst is better than Bond at his best.
I reread Red Phoenix last year, I thought it held up over time.
I have it in paperback and re-read it a year ago. I'd rather re-read Red Storm Rising for the millionth time.
Yes, RS is much better.
Need to reread Team Yankee sometime.
I should give TY another read.
I was a big fan of Harold Coyle back in the 90's and 00's. Not sure why I stopped reading his stuff. I'll need to see what he's been up to since 'Dead Hand'.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/02/china-added-missile-systems-on-spratly-islands-in-south-china-sea.html
Didn't they promise Obama NOT to do that? ???
Who promised Obama anything and then kept their word?
Michelle? No.... Hillary? Nope. Maybe the Mother-In-Law who lived with him all 8 years, she promised 'never to leave his side'. Or the Half-Brother who lived in the grass hut who promised to keep the Honor in the Obama name? That's two, sort of. :P
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/20911/taiwan-wants-to-speed-up-construction-of-its-new-missile-toting-stealthy-catamarans
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/how-china-plans-win-war-against-the-navy-sink-its-aircraft-25846
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/india-vietnam-gear-up-for-first-naval-drill-in-china-backyard/589043.html
https://twitter.com/nktpnd/status/997470628281245697
https://twitter.com/nktpnd/status/999317936035778560
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/05/23/exclusive-china-deploys-more-surface-to-air-missiles-to-disputed-island-raising-tension-with-us.html
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/05/27/world/asia/china-us-navy-paracel-islands.html
this line cracks me up:
QuoteH-6K strategic bomber
get the fuck outta here with you shit ass Badger bullshit. :2funny:
A Chinese aviator, flying a Chinese made J-15 fighter, made the first night landing on a carrier. This is a remarkable achievement. These landings, called "night traps", are considered the most difficult task any aviator can carry out, especially in rough weather. By early 2018 China had nearly 40 aviators qualified for daytime takeoffs and landings but apparently only one of them, so far, has mastered the night trap.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htnavai/articles/20180610.aspx
A most important step.
Quote from: besilarius on June 10, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
A most important step.
Yeah, they're really catching up fast. The first night carrier landing by a Western aviator was just 93 years ago...
You're channeling Starfury.
Not a chance. I hate goats.
^Not you Sir...'Wing.
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 10, 2018, 08:52:04 AM
Quote from: besilarius on June 10, 2018, 08:30:49 AM
A most important step.
Yeah, they're really catching up fast. The first night carrier landing by a Western aviator was just 93 years ago...
:2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
in the vernacular of gaming:
fucking shitters
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-Relations/China-puts-coast-guard-under-military-command
Oh my God....how do we fight sneaky bastards who would do something like this?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dm_x1ThU0AAp7W7.jpg:large)
How diabolical- next they'll be painting their tanks in colors that match the environments they operate in!
It makes me wonder where they've been looking for their subs until now? :idiot2:
Uranus. Clearly.
Is there a lot of water there? :coolsmiley:
I thankfully don't know.
It's always fun posting on Grogheads simply to see where the conversation goes 8)
It quite often goes to.... Uranus. <:-)
Hahaha!!!
"How is the Star Ship Enterprise just like a roll of toilet paper?"
Now it's a party :notworthy:
Scientists were originally going to name Uranus, 'Urasshole' but they thought people would make crude jokes about the name. :idiot2:
Thank God it worked out different.
I was one of the market testers... I still like choice E - Bunghole
'testers'
:P
Ha!
Quote from: Staggerwing on March 08, 2019, 07:37:31 PM
"How is the Star Ship Enterprise just like a roll of toilet paper?"
I give up Stagger. How is the Enterprise like a roll of toilet paper?
They both help you get rid of Klingons.....
"Dammit Jim! I'm a doctor not a Proctologist".
WOW
If Chinese spies are reading this thread, they gotta be friggin confused as hell by now.
Good job, boys ;D :DD <:-)
Right! Stick THAT in your Poo Poo Platter you Chinese spies. And stay out of our off-topic anal-themed rants! >:(
Quote from: Sir Slash on March 14, 2019, 10:23:54 AM
And stay out of our off-topic anal-themed rants! >:(
Ha, and good luck finding a topic that doesn't fit those categories!
Quote from: Steelgrave on March 14, 2019, 11:29:03 AM
Quote from: Sir Slash on March 14, 2019, 10:23:54 AM
And stay out of our off-topic anal-themed rants! >:(
Ha, and good luck finding a topic that doesn't fit those categories!
or one that doesn't veer off into them