I admit I had not heard of this until I opened up today's Wall Street Journal (don't judge, I got a year subscription for free) and saw on the front page, "Markets Rise on U.K. Polls." My company, based in Scotland, had a blurb on its Intranet yesterday too about how this would impact the company (and the answer in the article was, there was no answer, just a lot of general vague points, which wasn't very encouraging).
I didn't know that the UK was even considering leaving the EU. Is this a result of a rise in nationalism/anti-immigration? (I'm not taking a stance either way, I'm genuinely curious.) Is the UK facing similar shifts in government/pressures from the people?
I had thought the EU was generally successful, if not for countries like Greece causing a tremendous drag on the overall economy of the whole. But again, my knowledge is somewhat superficial. Anyone care to elaborate, especially those of you living there? What are your opinions/perceptions?
Vote Brexit or we wont trade with you : http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=16806.0
D'oh, thanks.
The Brits can leave the EU but please don't leave the Grogs. I don't want to be the only guy here wearing a dress. Kilt I mean. ::)
The Grogxit
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 22, 2016, 11:04:51 AM
The Brits can leave the EU but please don't leave the Grogs. I don't want to be the only guy here wearing a dress. Kilt I mean. ::)
Oh don't worry about that, there are plenty of us.............Ah, oops.
All I know is the news reports have the UK bookies leaning towards the UK remaining in the EU - for whatever that means.
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 22, 2016, 11:04:51 AM
The Brits can leave the EU but please don't leave the Grogs. I don't want to be the only guy here wearing a dress. Kilt I mean. ::)
Don't worry. The Grogs are ok. No issue there. O0
Once the general man on the street vibe over there? Brexit or Remain?
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 22, 2016, 12:47:48 PM
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 22, 2016, 11:04:51 AM
...wearing a dress...
:knuppel2:
Careful Slash. Judge is a Braveheart at heart... jus go easy on the "dress" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJVFJ2kb62c ;)
Here are a couple of pointers...How to wind up the
Picts Scots >:D ...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvS6sThWuok
The truth about kilts... ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGNYuXMOk6U
Why has there been no publicity about alternatives to the Brexit, such as pressuring the EU to reform some of it's more egregious rules? No 'collective bargaining', as it were? This brinksmanship adventure reminds me an awful lot of America politics at it's worst. Which is to say, most of the time.
I suspect the EU is like the Hotel California. You can check-out any time like. But you can never leave. :knuppel2:
Isn't that their tagline?
Worked for Mc Cartney.
Wait that wasn't Paul. It was... The Eagles? Damn, I feel old all of a sudden.
Quote from: Gusington on June 22, 2016, 08:46:39 PM
Once the general man on the street vibe over there? Brexit or Remain?
Opinion seems very divided. There are so many polls going on at the moment, some place Leave ahead some Remain. It is anyone's guess at the moment.
If you watch this clip, substituting the English for the EU, you will see my sentiment is with the Scots...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIvRkjOd1f8
Whatever happens tomorrow, the UK will still be part of the EU on Friday. The legislation will remain as it is on the statute book, and if Leave wins then any future government will have to change it through the parliamentary process. I doubt very much that any contentious areas like employment law will be given up any more than it already is under the watch of the EU.
The referendum is not legally binding, although persuasive on government. Given that article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty gives up to 2 years to negotiate terms of exit (with the potential for extension) a lot can happen. "A week is a long time in politics" (Harold Wilson attrib.), so what does 2 years mean?
Given the huge amount of pressure being applied from the UK government on the electorate to remain, and the panic in Brussels at thought of the wider implications of Brexit, I would not be at all surprised if a Leave vote gets treated like the Irish referenda. The Irish electorate rejected the EU Constitution in 2008, and de facto accepted it in 2009 when they ratified the Lisbon Treaty under huge governmental pressure (and arguably for a few political scraps thrown them from the EU.) The problem is that despite referenda, the
Modus Operandi of the EU is to ignore inconvenient results so long as the "correct" choice is made in the end. https://www.oxford-royale.co.uk/articles/european-union-undemocratic.html
And it's not often I agree with Gerry Adams of Sinn Fein on the deal that Ireland got for knuckling to the pressure on the electorate... http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0911/121701-eulisbon/
So what else might happen to the EU if Brexit is successful? You can expect that the electorates of more countries within the EU will want their own exit referendums, which will put huge pressure on the EU's biggest supporter Angela Merkel of Germany https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Rcc7xgD2dM as the biggest contributor to EU tribute to maintain the shaky economies of the EU empire.
In the interest of democracy, I hope the UK does Brexit. I have huge doubt that even if the referendum supports leave that the UK will leave the EU any time soon, for the reasons I've given. Of course, a failure to leave if the UK votes to leave will intensify feeling from a substantial part of the UK electorate against the EU even more.
A remain vote on the other hand will see the Federal project strengthened as the EU will take a remain vote as an endorsement, rather than the product of fear mongering relied on so much by the remain campaign. More and more the identity of the nation state will be further undermined until the Europa project achieves its aim of having mere amorphous regions within the EU super state, which can effectively ignore the inconvenience of democracy to its lawmakers. If people like Gorbachev who was fundamental to ending the Cold War, is warning about the post Lisbon EU, with his knowledge of the USSR, shouldn't we be taking note? http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/681928/lisbon-treaty-eu-superstate-referendum I also pay attention to the views of former Chancellor's of the Exchequer Nigel Lawson and Norman Lamont (who protected the UK from financial failure with the Eurozone by coming out of the ERM) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/02/the-eu-exists-only-to-become-a-superstate-britain-has-no-place-i/ (Lawson)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35702830 (Lamont interviewed by the BBC, he also makes some interesting points on the economic outlook on Brexit O0).
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 22, 2016, 09:04:17 PM
Why has there been no publicity about alternatives to the Brexit, such as pressuring the EU to reform some of it's more egregious rules? No 'collective bargaining', as it were? This brinksmanship adventure reminds me an awful lot of America politics at it's worst. Which is to say, most of the time.
Because the EU doesn't do reform.
The evidence is that compromise is regarded as a tactical speed bump on the road to greater federalisation. Look for example at the 1992 Danish referendum re the Maastricht Treaty, the subsequent political scraps thrown at them to ratify the treaty. Then all the changes applied in subsequent treaties, which supercede the compromise the Danes thought they had obtained in 1992. The compromises were a speed bump. Just that.
On a more personal level, when I was studying for my Business Law degree, I spent two years studying EU law. One of the papers I had to write concerned the success of judicial review at the European Court of
Political Decisions Justice (ECJ), Court of Auditors etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_review At the time of writing there had been hundreds of cases raised by member states, individuals and corporations. Mostly these concerned the EU Commission. At the time of writing, none save four - I repeat four - were ever successful. The most telling point is that the successful judicial reviews were raised by other institutions of the EU, and NOT by the vast majority of non EU institution judicial review applicants, irrespective of the grounds of the reasoning to have EU Commission decisions set aside. I read a lot of the cases, and mostly there were good grounds put forward by non EU entities.
The bottom line was to make the EU Commission de facto unassailable to judicial review by citizens, companies, or member states. That other EU institutions could do it, is another matter for the ECJ, but that is internal wrangling, and not a challenge to the supremacy of the Commission.
Like I say. The EU does not do reform. If it did, then maybe a lot of Brexit leave supporters would be less vocal that it is so anti-democratic.
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 22, 2016, 09:54:39 PM
I suspect the EU is like the Hotel California. You can check-out any time like. But you can never leave. :knuppel2:
It is. :(
And it's grip WILL tighten if we remain. Don't take it from me, but from a past President of the Commission. And no, no one has ever voted for him... Note that the articles are now a few years old. This has been in the pipeline for a while now. What scares me is remain voters naively sleep walking like sheep into a federal super state where the inconvenient electorate can just be ignored. Check it out, they openly advocate this... :o
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10041817/Federal-Europe-will-be-a-reality-in-a-few-years-says-Jose-Manuel-Barroso.html
http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/15359-federal-europe-coming-soon-eu-boss-says
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19366150
https://www.euractiv.com/section/euro-finance/news/merkel-preaches-federalism-to-meps-warns-britain-against-eu-exit/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/the-merkel-plan-ill-save-the-euro-with-a-federal-europe-6271544.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/fran-ois-hollande-calls-for-european-political-union-within-two-years-8619824.
-ml
Just came across this, which is an interesting insight into the views of trade with Germany post Brexit from an official of German Industry's representatives ... it shows up Cameron and Osborne's lies for what they are.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/682561/david-cameron-eu-referendum-european-union-brexit-germany-boris-johnson-brussels
Whatever, the result the Brexit debate has created huge rifts in our nation, and the wild claims have undermined the credibility of our political class. The trust has gone.
Quote from: Boggit on June 22, 2016, 08:57:46 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 22, 2016, 12:47:48 PM
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 22, 2016, 11:04:51 AM
...wearing a dress...
:knuppel2:
Careful Slash. Judge is a Braveheart at heart... jus go easy on the "dress" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJVFJ2kb62c ;)
Here are a couple of pointers...How to wind up the Picts Scots >:D ...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvS6sThWuok
The truth about kilts... ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGNYuXMOk6U
lol
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 22, 2016, 09:04:17 PM
Why has there been no publicity about alternatives to the Brexit, such as pressuring the EU to reform some of it's more egregious rules? No 'collective bargaining', as it were? This brinksmanship adventure reminds me an awful lot of America politics at it's worst. Which is to say, most of the time.
As Boggit says - there's an agenda for political union and it's basically not up for debate.
If the threat of the UK leaving the EU - which is a big thing and I'm not overstating the UKs importance in the EU here - does not get reform, then I can't see how anything could.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 23, 2016, 04:28:57 AM
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 22, 2016, 09:04:17 PM
Why has there been no publicity about alternatives to the Brexit, such as pressuring the EU to reform some of it's more egregious rules? No 'collective bargaining', as it were? This brinksmanship adventure reminds me an awful lot of America politics at it's worst. Which is to say, most of the time.
As Boggit says - there's an agenda for political union and it's basically not up for debate.
If the threat of the UK leaving the EU - which is a big thing and I'm not overstating the UKs importance in the EU here - does not get reform, then I can't see how anything could.
+1 O0
I had an interesting chat at the supermarket with a Polish friend of mine who works there. Interestingly, he was pro remain until recently, but now thinks Brexit will be a good thing, especially if other EU nations demand their own referendum. More interesting still, without any prompting from me he was advocating the idea of a European confederacy of free nations cooperating in mutual interests, but without the EU dictating the relationship... something I've been in favour of for a while. He feels that if the UK vote Brexit, then a lot of other EU nations will want a say in their futures.
I think the EU federal project is the wrong model, but I can see lots of benefits of learning from our mistakes with the EU, and working cooperatively with European nations. He is concerned that Germany will try to prevent this, as the chief beneficiary of a federal EU, but it seems a lot of Europeans are interested in an alternate model of cooperation where their citizens have the potential for a say in the laws they live by.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 23, 2016, 04:28:57 AM
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 22, 2016, 09:04:17 PM
Why has there been no publicity about alternatives to the Brexit, such as pressuring the EU to reform some of it's more egregious rules? No 'collective bargaining', as it were? This brinksmanship adventure reminds me an awful lot of America politics at it's worst. Which is to say, most of the time.
As Boggit says - there's an agenda for political union and it's basically not up for debate.
If the threat of the UK leaving the EU - which is a big thing and I'm not overstating the UKs importance in the EU here - does not get reform, then I can't see how anything could.
From the horse's mouth (I guess the President of the EU Commission will have to do instead) -
http://www.euronews.com/2016/06/20/eu-post-brexit-would-not-change-its-nature-juncker-tells-euronews/
Interesting that in the face of Brexit there is no change in course. The lookouts have warned of the iceberg, then they say it's scraping the ship sides. So the captain orders full speed ahead.... :crazy2: will these people never learn?
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 22, 2016, 10:00:18 PM
Wait that wasn't Paul. It was... The Eagles? Damn, I feel old all of a sudden.
The Eagles.
Good times!
All the while over here, our Presi-dent looks longingly at the EU and whispers to himself, "I wish we could be like that". All the "One-World Government" jokes used to be funny. Now they are down-right frightening. We're praying for you, Britain.
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 23, 2016, 09:55:32 AM
All the while over here, our Presi-dent looks longingly at the EU and whispers to himself, "I wish we could be like that". All the "One-World Government" jokes used to be funny. Now they are down-right frightening. We're praying for you, Britain.
Thanks Sir Slash. O0
There are a few voting districts to go, but over 1.2million more people voted for Brexit over Remain. It is a public expression of the will of the people, but not actually legally binding. If Art 50 is triggered under the Lisbon Treaty we still might remain in the EU for up to and possibly beyond 2 years during negotiations. I'll believe it when it actually happens, as the EU bloc might yet try to get a second referendum to get the decision it wants, as they did with Ireland in their two referenda of 2008/9.
The markets are jumpy now because of uncertainty, but they are premature given the above.
I'm not surprised Obama likes the EU - it operates at the decision level (Commission) without election, and is essentially unassailable. It's not surprising that career politicians like it - appointments without the inconvenience of elections. A great day for liberty. We'll have our struggles in consequence, but I am optimistic for the future. Maybe 23rd June will be seen as our 4th July in the future, but there is a lot of water to flow under the bridge.
Funny how history repeats itself. For me it is our Yorktown moment, something perhaps an American will well understand? A sincere thank you for your support. O0 Liberrrrty! :)
This is going to be funny....very funny....
Good luck guys....you'll need it :2funny:
Quote from: Boggit on June 24, 2016, 12:51:41 AM
Funny how history repeats itself. For me it is our Yorktown moment, something perhaps an American will well understand?
Most Americans wouldn't know what you meant.
Quote from: Anguille on June 24, 2016, 04:33:26 AM
This is going to be funny....very funny....
Good luck guys....you'll need it :2funny:
No worries. O0
This has been far from an easy decision for us to arrive at. But my country has just had 17.6 million voters decide that leaving the EU is in the best interest of freedom, and prosperity for our country. I'll answer your disrespectful response to the exercise of our democracy in the same vein.
At least we have the courage to stand up to the unelected, unaccountable Commission in the desire to reclaim our sovereignty, and our democratic heritage. We've taken our decision and will take the opportunity to move on, as far as we can, in a positive way both with our neighbours in the EU, and with the rest of the world.
Sure we will have some big challenges in taking the big step from a "safe", but insular protectionist bloc into global society. It is a very big scary step for us, but we hope that as a free people with the risks come rewards too. Mark Twain said
"Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear." Have no doubt that for many of us there is plenty of fear of the unknown by taking this step into a 'Brave New World'. But we are doing it anyway in spite of the fear, in the belief we are doing the right thing by our country and our values. That is courage, and we do it with the hope that 'fortune favours the brave'.
In 1775, the USA also broke with precedent, and in the same spirit of taking great risk they had the courage to face the might of an autocratic British Empire. It was said at the time that it had not been done before and would not succeed. Perhaps, in irony, it is our time to learn from those rebels who had the courage to do the unthinkable?
You're welcome to remain in a puppet state of the EU if you really want to. But why don't you have the courage to test how the ordinary citizens in your country feel when they are given the opportunity to express their opinion? Are you scared you might find that they have more confidence in their ability to make something of their country, without being told what they should do, or what they should think by their unelected and unaccountable EU overlords?
You can remain a collaborator of the EU that rules by proxy through your national government, whose laws they can strike down, or be dictated by people you have never voted for and cannot remove. That is de facto dictatorship. Do you not understand that is what you are standing for? It seems you have no understanding, nor the desire to be free of it. So you mock.
You do realise that the EU has a clear federal agenda, which will reduce your country to a mere region where the citizens, if they can then be called that, will have no more say in their laws that they would have had in the former Soviet Union? Unless you develop a sense of liberty that you value, then that is your fate. Benjamin Franklin put it quite well when he said
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."So what will you do? Will you demand a real say for your people where you will actually have a role in your future, for better or worse? Or will you be the lickspittle lackey of unelected, unaccountable commissioners who are destroying democracy in favour of "stable government" (read no meaningful elections)?
It's your choice. But don't mock us when you haven't the courage... at least not yet, to fight for your right to have your laws made by the people you elect and can get rid of the same way.
Quote from: mirth on June 24, 2016, 07:25:32 AM
Quote from: Boggit on June 24, 2016, 12:51:41 AM
Funny how history repeats itself. For me it is our Yorktown moment, something perhaps an American will well understand?
Most Americans wouldn't know what you meant.
Be grateful that at least you had an education! ;)
Quote from: Boggit on June 24, 2016, 07:49:03 AM
Quote from: Anguille on June 24, 2016, 04:33:26 AM
This is going to be funny....very funny....
Good luck guys....you'll need it :2funny:
It's your choice. But don't mock us when you haven't the courage... at least not yet, to fight for your right to have your laws made by the people you elect and can get rid of the same way.
We're not part of it....
Sorry to say but it has nothing to do with courage...
And about 17 million people didn't want to leave, yet you speak in their name...
Quote from: Anguille on June 24, 2016, 08:43:38 AM
Quote from: Boggit on June 24, 2016, 07:49:03 AM
Quote from: Anguille on June 24, 2016, 04:33:26 AM
This is going to be funny....very funny....
Good luck guys....you'll need it :2funny:
It's your choice. But don't mock us when you haven't the courage... at least not yet, to fight for your right to have your laws made by the people you elect and can get rid of the same way.
We're not part of it....
Sorry to say but it has nothing to do with courage...
And about 17 million people didn't want to leave, yet you speak in their name...
That's what happens when you allow people to vote. Amazing, when a vote doesn't go someone way, they already the sudden don't like it very well. But when the vote goes their way, it's the best thing in the world and losers need to sit there and shut up.
That pesky democracy, always biting someone in the ass.
Quote from: OJsDad on June 24, 2016, 08:45:58 AM
Quote from: Anguille on June 24, 2016, 08:43:38 AM
Quote from: Boggit on June 24, 2016, 07:49:03 AM
Quote from: Anguille on June 24, 2016, 04:33:26 AM
This is going to be funny....very funny....
Good luck guys....you'll need it :2funny:
It's your choice. But don't mock us when you haven't the courage... at least not yet, to fight for your right to have your laws made by the people you elect and can get rid of the same way.
A majority has voted and it has to be respected and the Brexit will take place. The opinions and the fears of the losers also have to be respected. This is what the experience of people living in a real democracy have learned.
We're not part of it....
Sorry to say but it has nothing to do with courage...
And about 17 million people didn't want to leave, yet you speak in their name...
That's what happens when you allow people to vote. Amazing, when a vote doesn't go someone way, they already the sudden don't like it very well. But when the vote goes their way, it's the best thing in the world and losers need to sit there and shut up.
The majority has voted and the Brexit will take place. The fears and the opinions of the losers also have to be respected. That's what you learn in a real democracy.
Anyway...i am serious when i wish good luck because it's going to be rough ride...
Whoa lads.
To be fair to Boggit I think he knew that he wasn't speaking for the people who did not want to leave. When he was referring to what people wanted and their courage etc, etc, I'm pretty sure he wasn't speaking for the entire UK but actually just the 17 million that did vote for it. Sorry if I'm jumping into your post and getting my interpretation of your post wrong.
Rightly or wrongly, good or bad, it was a proportional representation referendum where every persons vote is worth the same as another persons and 52% of the populace that voted choose to take us out the EU.
I've heard people say "There should've been a minimum win proportion" - but I don't buy it. The majority vote went with Brexit and, like it or lump it, that's what's happening.
Anguille - I think by your post it was a bit flippant and so he defended his vote and the direction he's choose to take his country. I also think he assumed you were a member of an EU member state. Personally I don't know where you come from and you are entirely entitled to your opinion about the result and how it may affect the UK, the EU and whichever country you come from...but it was done rather flippantly on the back of what must be (for him) a euphoric moment.
The discussion around this up to this point has been exemplary and very polite - can we keep it that way?
Thank you all
By the way, I voted remain as did my wife and child. My wife cried this morning and my daughter text me one word (I was at work when she awoke from the dead)...it simply said "Shit". My wife, as I am and my daughters hugely proud to be British and European. My wife and kids are as proud to be English as I am to be Scottish
What's done is done. O0
JD, do you think many of Brits will chose to leave England to live in the EU before all is said and done/
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 24, 2016, 08:58:36 AM
Whoa lads.
To be fair to Boggit I think he knew that he wasn't speaking for the people who did not want to leave. When he was referring to what people wanted and their courage etc, etc, I'm pretty sure he wasn't speaking for the entire UK but actually just the 17 million that did vote for it. Sorry if I'm jumping into your post and getting my interpretation of your post wrong.
Rightly or wrongly, good or bad, it was a proportional representation referendum where every persons vote is worth the same as another persons and 52% of the populace that voted choose to take us out the EU.
I've heard people say "There should've been a minimum win proportion" - but I don't buy it. The majority vote went with Brexit and, like it or lump it, that's what's happening.
Anguille - I think by your post it was a bit flippant and so he defended his vote and the direction he's choose to take his country. I also think he assumed you were a member of an EU member state. Personally I don't know where you come from and you are entirely entitled to your opinion about the result and how it may affect the UK, the EU and whichever country you come from...but it was done rather flippantly on the back of what must be (for him) a euphoric moment.
The discussion around this up to this point has been exemplary and very polite - can we keep it that way?
Thank you all
By the way, I voted remain as did my wife and child. My wife cried this morning and my daughter text me one word (I was at work when she awoke from the dead)...it simply said "Shit". My wife, as I am and my daughters hugely proud to be British and European. My wife and kids are as proud to be English as I am to be Scottish
What's done is done. O0
Good post. O0
And i also do agree....50% or more makes a decision...
I've also heard, and saw in the other/first Brexit thread, that Scotland is going to do another 'leave the UK' vote. I wasn't sure if I heard right, but also heard something about Belfast doing the same thing.
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on June 24, 2016, 09:09:58 AM
I've also heard, and saw in the other/first Brexit thread, that Scotland is going to do another 'leave the UK' vote. I wasn't sure if I heard right, but also heard something about Belfast doing the same thing.
Yeah...it seems very likely as they got about 62% of votes to stay in the EU.
Why did both Scotland and N. Ireland voted to stay in the EU.
An interesting graphic:
http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//8/5/85415.png (http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//8/5/85415.png)
Also of interest:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2016/jun/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2016/jun/23/eu-referendum-live-results-and-analysis)
Quote from: Anguille on June 24, 2016, 08:43:38 AM
Quote from: Boggit on June 24, 2016, 07:49:03 AM
Quote from: Anguille on June 24, 2016, 04:33:26 AM
This is going to be funny....very funny....
Good luck guys....you'll need it :2funny:
It's your choice. But don't mock us when you haven't the courage... at least not yet, to fight for your right to have your laws made by the people you elect and can get rid of the same way.
We're not part of it....
Sorry to say but it has nothing to do with courage...
And about 17 million people didn't want to leave, yet you speak in their name...
Get it right. Around 16.2 million voted to remain. 1.2 million more voted to leave on 72.5% turnout. 52% of the vote.
And yes, when you do a balance of the risks, it does require moral courage to do what you see is right.
Quote from: OJsDad on June 24, 2016, 09:02:28 AM
JD, do you think many of Brits will chose to leave England to live in the EU before all is said and done/
No - I don't...I think 17m Brits are extremely happy how this turned out and I hope it means what they hope to get from it.
I just hope it's not a signal to the far right
Quote from: Boggit on June 24, 2016, 09:27:50 AM
And yes, when you do a balance of the risks, it does require moral courage to do what you see is right.
I believe that you did this because you seem to have studied the question deeply. I don't think however that most people vote like that (any side).
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 24, 2016, 08:58:36 AM
The discussion around this up to this point has been exemplary and very polite - can we keep it that way?
This.
As a moderator, I want to commend everyone who has participated in this thread for keeping such an emotional, strongly felt issue so civil. I've seen disagreements over wargames turn uglier than this, not to mention our threads on U.S. politics.
Good job and gold stars for all. Carry on. O0
Quote from: Anguille on June 24, 2016, 08:50:09 AM
Quote from: OJsDad on June 24, 2016, 08:45:58 AM
Quote from: Anguille on June 24, 2016, 08:43:38 AM
Quote from: Boggit on June 24, 2016, 07:49:03 AM
Quote from: Anguille on June 24, 2016, 04:33:26 AM
This is going to be funny....very funny....
Good luck guys....you'll need it :2funny:
It's your choice. But don't mock us when you haven't the courage... at least not yet, to fight for your right to have your laws made by the people you elect and can get rid of the same way.
A majority has voted and it has to be respected and the Brexit will take place. The opinions and the fears of the losers also have to be respected. This is what the experience of people living in a real democracy have learned.
We're not part of it....
Sorry to say but it has nothing to do with courage...
And about 17 million people didn't want to leave, yet you speak in their name...
That's what happens when you allow people to vote. Amazing, when a vote doesn't go someone way, they already the sudden don't like it very well. But when the vote goes their way, it's the best thing in the world and losers need to sit there and shut up.
The majority has voted and the Brexit will take place. The fears and the opinions of the losers also have to be respected. That's what you learn in a real democracy.
Anyway...i am serious when i wish good luck because it's going to be rough ride...
Fair enough. :)
I agree with you that the scope of the vote on both sides means that the process needs to be handled sensitively. I am not unsympathetic to the remain voters, but you also need to understand that they have subjected to a lot of government propaganda that the government and remain campaign are only - now the referendum is over - admitting to. Given the quite brutal (at times) claims, a remain vote was the "safe" vote, so I do understand their point of view. That we have since the referendum been subject to both veiled and more overt threats from the EU in order to intimidate other countries from an exit referendum has done nothing either to calm matters down.
I have been up all night with the referendum, so I admit to being less than tolerant when yet another person appears to be mocking what I feel is a brave, and ultimately correct decision. You are right that it isn't going to be made an easy ride, and I do appreciate the clarification you've made. I also appreciate the good will you are showing in your post towards the well being of my country. So I apologise if I have jumped down your throat on a misunderstanding of what you intended to say.
Remember there was still a lot of war to fight after Yorktown-- not in America but elsewhere in the world the fight continued for years. Same here I expect. The Professional Politicians won't take this rejection of their overlordship powers well at all. First up, lawsuits probably to overturn the vote followed by more dire predictions of impending disaster and finally, every drought, famine, war, and Nut Case with a gun will be blamed on Brexit. I can't wait to hear all the problems here in the US blamed on it. But I for one am VERY proud this morning of The Mother Country.
Quote from: Boggit on June 24, 2016, 09:47:07 AM
I have been up all night with the referendum, so I admit to being less than tolerant when yet another person appears to be mocking what I feel is a brave, and ultimately correct decision. You are right that it isn't going to be made an easy ride, and I do appreciate the clarification you've made. I also appreciate the good will you are showing in your post towards the well being of my country. So I apologise if I have jumped down your throat on a misunderstanding of what you intended to say.
We're cool ;)
I deeply love GB and i am really concerned.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 24, 2016, 08:58:36 AM
Whoa lads.
To be fair to Boggit I think he knew that he wasn't speaking for the people who did not want to leave. When he was referring to what people wanted and their courage etc, etc, I'm pretty sure he wasn't speaking for the entire UK but actually just the 17 million that did vote for it. Sorry if I'm jumping into your post and getting my interpretation of your post wrong.
Rightly or wrongly, good or bad, it was a proportional representation referendum where every persons vote is worth the same as another persons and 52% of the populace that voted choose to take us out the EU.
I've heard people say "There should've been a minimum win proportion" - but I don't buy it. The majority vote went with Brexit and, like it or lump it, that's what's happening.
Anguille - I think by your post it was a bit flippant and so he defended his vote and the direction he's choose to take his country. I also think he assumed you were a member of an EU member state. Personally I don't know where you come from and you are entirely entitled to your opinion about the result and how it may affect the UK, the EU and whichever country you come from...but it was done rather flippantly on the back of what must be (for him) a euphoric moment.
The discussion around this up to this point has been exemplary and very polite - can we keep it that way?
Thank you all
By the way, I voted remain as did my wife and child. My wife cried this morning and my daughter text me one word (I was at work when she awoke from the dead)...it simply said "Shit". My wife, as I am and my daughters hugely proud to be British and European. My wife and kids are as proud to be English as I am to be Scottish
What's done is done. O0
Thanks JD. O0 As usual you are spot on.
Believe it or not, I do empathise with your family. You did all you reasonably could to inform yourself, and you voted on the basis of that. Do I think you were wrong? No. I understand fully from our previous discussions why you voted the way you did. We're just two voters and whatever we did we were voting in a referendum that swallowed our votes without a blink given the millions of votes cast. I'm pleased with the result because I don't want to end up (or my family for that matter) in a federal state where the democratic mechanism will to all intent and purposes be dead. But I get very well where you and your family are coming from too, and it is an entirely different angle. I respect that.
It is my sincere hope that in spite of the uncertainties, and all the slings and arrows we'll undoubtedly go through, that we will come through this a better and more prosperous nation, of which we can all be proud. There is nothing wrong with your family regarding themselves British and European. We already are. Being European though is not the same as being part of a series of institutions with ambitions of statehood.
Whichever side of the referendum we took, it is on us now to put aside our differences and use the opportunity to do the best we can for our country and our families. We may have different approaches, but basically we want the same thing - for our families to have a bright future to look forward to. Respect JD. :)
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on June 24, 2016, 09:09:58 AM
I've also heard, and saw in the other/first Brexit thread, that Scotland is going to do another 'leave the UK' vote. I wasn't sure if I heard right, but also heard something about Belfast doing the same thing.
Quote from: Anguille on June 24, 2016, 09:14:12 AM
Quote from: Banzai_Cat on June 24, 2016, 09:09:58 AM
I've also heard, and saw in the other/first Brexit thread, that Scotland is going to do another 'leave the UK' vote. I wasn't sure if I heard right, but also heard something about Belfast doing the same thing.
Yeah...it seems very likely as they got about 62% of votes to stay in the EU.
Quote from: OJsDad on June 24, 2016, 09:17:27 AM
Why did both Scotland and N. Ireland voted to stay in the EU.
It was in the SNP's manifesto that
Quote
We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.
She's not daft though. She's a canny lass and I imagine she'll do her homework. She's not likely to "use up" another referendum on the basis of 62% of the 60% of voting population making a case to stay in the EU.
Basically, 2.6+m people in Scotland voted. 1.6m voted to remain in the EU an 1m voted to leave. That left 2m who didn't vote.
So she's saying "it's on the table" as per their Manifesto. So she's only saying it as a cautionary step (besides being pushed by the media)...but I don't think she'll push for one unless she guaranteed a win next time. She'd be daft to try otherwise.
Quote from: Boggit on June 24, 2016, 10:05:28 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 24, 2016, 08:58:36 AM
Whoa lads.
To be fair to Boggit I think he knew that he wasn't speaking for the people who did not want to leave. When he was referring to what people wanted and their courage etc, etc, I'm pretty sure he wasn't speaking for the entire UK but actually just the 17 million that did vote for it. Sorry if I'm jumping into your post and getting my interpretation of your post wrong.
Rightly or wrongly, good or bad, it was a proportional representation referendum where every persons vote is worth the same as another persons and 52% of the populace that voted choose to take us out the EU.
I've heard people say "There should've been a minimum win proportion" - but I don't buy it. The majority vote went with Brexit and, like it or lump it, that's what's happening.
Anguille - I think by your post it was a bit flippant and so he defended his vote and the direction he's choose to take his country. I also think he assumed you were a member of an EU member state. Personally I don't know where you come from and you are entirely entitled to your opinion about the result and how it may affect the UK, the EU and whichever country you come from...but it was done rather flippantly on the back of what must be (for him) a euphoric moment.
The discussion around this up to this point has been exemplary and very polite - can we keep it that way?
Thank you all
By the way, I voted remain as did my wife and child. My wife cried this morning and my daughter text me one word (I was at work when she awoke from the dead)...it simply said "Shit". My wife, as I am and my daughters hugely proud to be British and European. My wife and kids are as proud to be English as I am to be Scottish
What's done is done. O0
Thanks JD. O0 As usual you are spot on.
Believe it or not, I do empathise with your family. You did all you reasonably could to inform yourself, and you voted on the basis of that. Do I think you were wrong? No. I understand fully from our previous discussions why you voted the way you did. We're just two voters and whatever we did we were voting in a referendum that swallowed our votes without a blink given the millions of votes cast. I'm pleased with the result because I don't want to end up (or my family for that matter) in a federal state where the democratic mechanism will to all intent and purposes be dead. But I get very well where you and your family are coming from too, and it is an entirely different angle. I respect that.
It is my sincere hope that in spite of the uncertainties, and all the slings and arrows we'll undoubtedly go through, that we will come through this a better and more prosperous nation, of which we can all be proud. There is nothing wrong with your family regarding themselves British and European. We already are. Being European though is not the same as being part of a series of institutions with ambitions of statehood.
Whichever side of the referendum we took, it is on us now to put aside our differences and use the opportunity to do the best we can for our country and our families. We may have different approaches, but basically we want the same thing - for our families to have a bright future to look forward to. Respect JD. :)
lol - I don't think we have any differences - expect the obvious one and I know (from all our previous discussions) that you will have some empathy for those who voted remain. O0
Lets see which bunch of bastards was lying most ;D
Quote from: Anguille on June 24, 2016, 09:42:46 AM
Quote from: Boggit on June 24, 2016, 09:27:50 AM
And yes, when you do a balance of the risks, it does require moral courage to do what you see is right.
I believe that you did this because you seem to have studied the question deeply. I don't think however that most people vote like that (any side).
Oh, I think you're completely correct. Most people on both sides of the argument were incredibly ill informed on the issues raised, and both sides have made some brazen claims, with remain being slightly worse. It became painfully obvious in the many interviews and debates. Sadly, a lot of the claims by both sides of the argument have been framed in such a way as to distort facts and mislead people. That of course was the intention, sadly.
I spent 2 years on my bachelor's degree studying EU law, and another on Constitutional and Administrative law, which involved a fair bit of EU law and its effect on domestic law. I did more post graduate, in practice as a lawyer, and kept in touch with it after I got ill. I was incredibly pro-EU until I studied it. Despite all the study, I realise I still only fully understand a fraction of it, but enough to make sense of the issues. ???
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 24, 2016, 09:51:49 AM
Remember there was still a lot of war to fight after Yorktown-- not in America but elsewhere in the world the fight continued for years. Same here I expect. The Professional Politicians won't take this rejection of their overlordship powers well at all. First up, lawsuits probably to overturn the vote followed by more dire predictions of impending disaster and finally, every drought, famine, war, and Nut Case with a gun will be blamed on Brexit. I can't wait to hear all the problems here in the US blamed on it. But I for one am VERY proud this morning of The Mother Country.
Thanks Sir Slash. :)
As it is we're still a looooooong way to go. I doubt we'll be out of the EU for at least a couple of years. I really think it'll turn out fine in the end, but we just have to let things calm down, and then work with our European partners in a friendly, but fair way. To be honest, I recall my EU professor looking at the very same scenario about 19/20 years ago and predicting the internal collapse of the EU as an institution for the basic democratic deficit, and the economic stresses upon it from such divergent cultures and economies. He was quite good at his predictions.
It's going to be scary short term because it's all new and unprecedented. But the government's of the member states will settle down and do business when they get over it. The world has changed, but we'll adapt, and so will the member states of the EU. The EU won't but it is an institution that has outlived its time. What I hope will happen is that as more countries regain sovereignty they'll see the benefit of cooperation in their mutual self interest, learning from the mistakes of the EU experiment, but keeping the good stuff.
Quote from: Anguille on June 24, 2016, 09:52:35 AM
We're cool ;)
I deeply love GB and i am really concerned.
We are. 8) O0
I appreciate the sentiment, but don't worry it'll work out. And it's good knowing we have friends that care. :)
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 24, 2016, 10:10:25 AM
Lets see which bunch of bastards was lying most ;D
How long have you got?
Hard to tell. What worries me is how the political landscape will change, with remain in the ascendancy? I might have voted leave, but aside from Gisela Stuart, I still have serious reservations about some of the other leave characters. That said some of the remain ones turn my stomach too, and wouldn't trust them further than I could throw them! I'm glad Cameron is going but I wouldn't have missed that weasel Osborne going either. ;)
Quote from: Steelgrave on June 24, 2016, 09:46:25 AM
I've seen disagreements over wargames turn uglier than this, not to mention our threads on U.S. politics.
Well that would "Trump" this one... :D ;)
I feel exactly the same about Osborne and find it odd if he can continue. Afterall - he was the one that "made up" a very dark looking budget.
Quote from: Boggit on June 24, 2016, 10:41:14 AM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on June 24, 2016, 10:10:25 AM
Lets see which bunch of bastards was lying most ;D
How long have you got?
We have all......the time......in the world ;D
Quote from: Boggit on June 24, 2016, 10:17:48 AM
Quote from: Anguille on June 24, 2016, 09:42:46 AM
Quote from: Boggit on June 24, 2016, 09:27:50 AM
And yes, when you do a balance of the risks, it does require moral courage to do what you see is right.
I believe that you did this because you seem to have studied the question deeply. I don't think however that most people vote like that (any side).
Oh, I think you're completely correct. Most people on both sides of the argument were incredibly ill informed on the issues raised, and both sides have made some brazen claims, with remain being slightly worse. It became painfully obvious in the many interviews and debates. Sadly, a lot of the claims by both sides of the argument have been framed in such a way as to distort facts and mislead people. That of course was the intention, sadly.
I spent 2 years on my bachelor's degree studying EU law, and another on Constitutional and Administrative law, which involved a fair bit of EU law and its effect on domestic law. I did more post graduate, in practice as a lawyer, and kept in touch with it after I got ill. I was incredibly pro-EU until I studied it. Despite all the study, I realise I still only fully understand a fraction of it, but enough to make sense of the issues. ???
That's better O0 ;D
Does this mean that Britain has to move now? It can't be part of Europe anymore? Maybe if we got a bunch of ships, we could drag the island somewhere else. Maybe with a nicer climate. I think it'd fit nicely right in the middle of the Bahamas. And it would be closer so I could come visit. :coolsmiley:
Budge up ;D
Quote from: Sir Slash on June 24, 2016, 12:38:47 PM
Does this mean that Britain has to move now? It can't be part of Europe anymore? Maybe if we got a bunch of ships, we could drag the island somewhere else. Maybe with a nicer climate. I think it'd fit nicely right in the middle of the Bahamas. And it would be closer so I could come visit. :coolsmiley:
Sounds great. Arrange the ships and we'll set up some cool drinks on the verandah for you... ;D
Done. Don't tell Ireland. Let 'em try to figure it out. ;D
We might have to tow them out of the first so that we can get past.
Just pop a few bottles of the Hard Stuff down in front of them and they'll probably paddle themselves out of the way.
We'll just make the UK part of America, and bring Canada, America, and for shits and grins New Zealand and Australia, back under the crown, as long as you leave the 2nd Amendment alone. If you skip Charles and go straight to William, we can also enjoy having a hot Empress.
OK, sounds good - I'm in - where do I sign?
Me too! ;D
I vote for Bob for Prime Minister or whatever we decide to call our Exalted Leader.
I dunno. I hear Bob's got some pretty radical notions on counter clipping.
I prefer Lord Buckethead of Finchley.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11614787/Meet-the-small-loony-parties-who-never-win-anything-but-do-enrich-our-democracy.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11614787/Meet-the-small-loony-parties-who-never-win-anything-but-do-enrich-our-democracy.html)
Someone say hot empress?
Evaluating our current electoral choices versus the prospect of a hot empress, I'm all for the reconstituted Anglo Empire. None of that Boris Johnson nonsense though for PM. It needs to be Bawb.
No, no - you need someone who knows what its all about - that would definitely be Boggit. I'm quite happy to be his official coat-holder though :-)
Panzerde and I was contemplating on the possible fall-out effects of a toupee confrontation between Boris and Trump.
Quote from: bob48 on June 25, 2016, 12:45:57 PM
No, no - you need someone who knows what its all about - that would definitely be Boggit. I'm quite happy to be his official coat-holder though :-)
Panzerde and I was contemplating on the possible fall-out effects of a toupee confrontation between Boris and Trump.
;D
Ok, but only on condition that Bawb is Deputy PM, and JD as Foreign Secretary as he will understand the
Picts Scots, and will deal far better with the EU than ever I would. In this dream team, we'll have Jarhead as Defence Secretary, SDR as Head of the Bank of England (you have to be a Canadian to qualify), OJ's Dad as Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir Slash as Secretary for Culture, Steelie as Home Secretary, Ghostie Communities Secretary, Brant Education Secretary, Mirth as Minister of Technology, Attilla and Jejo can give JD sleepless nights as Parliamentary High Representatives to the EU, and Gus can employ his special talents advising the Queen as Lord President of the Privy Council! >:D ;) I hope I haven't missed anyone... we can always do a reshuffle...
To commemorate Brexit we will need a suitably appropriate tune as our new national anthem. It's a bit more modern than the usual anthem, is based on the Falklands War, but I think it captures the spirit of it... ;D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMN6CuB6R1c&feature=related
What do you think?
I 'll need strong back up.
I really want to be "M".
Can I be Minister of Inertia? My doctor says I need to get more rest.
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 25, 2016, 02:06:56 PM
Can I be Minister of Inertia? My doctor says I need to get more rest.
Make sure everyone gets their proper mid day nap.
I'm good with all of that, plus we need Windy as Minister of the Environment.
The National Anthem would have to be this;
I'm down with all of that as long as I get to be a member of the peerage as a useless and decadent aristocrat. Not much point in being an empire if I can't do that.
Quote from: panzerde on June 25, 2016, 03:54:29 PM
I'm down with all of that as long as I get to be a member of the peerage as a useless and decadent aristocrat. Not much point in being an empire if I can't do that.
I think that describes the requirements perfectly well. You're in!
Quote from: Staggerwing on June 25, 2016, 02:06:56 PM
Can I be Minister of Inertia? My doctor says I need to get more rest.
Be my guest, but there is another vacancy in the Ministry of Silly Walks, previously overseen by the Rt. Hon Montgomery Python MP. ;D Your choice. ;)
I want to be a pr0n director. Nothing to do with your discussion, I'm just saying.
Quote from: Gusington on June 25, 2016, 05:26:35 PM
I want to be a pr0n director. Nothing to do with your discussion, I'm just saying.
We'll make you the Director of State Morality. That'll give you a bit more scope. ;D ;)
Quote from: Boggit on June 24, 2016, 01:24:28 PM
Sounds great. Arrange the ships and we'll set up some cool drinks on the verandah for you... ;D
On the lips would be fine.
...wait, are we still doing the hot empress joke? I've lost some track of the topics...
while this is now a bit late, it was damned funny
[yt]https://youtu.be/iAgKHSNqxa8[/yt]
I'll take Sec. of Culture. GREY POUPON FOR EVERYONE! What's the salary Mr. PM?
Quote(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13528874_1302313929797464_393454474632126404_n.jpg?oh=aa6260038ead456a4dd7cf659d2ca224&oe=57EFF957)
EU Referendum Local Results 2016 vs. Mad Cow Disease Outbreak Areas 1992
However, it would be a mistake to jump to conclusions.
This is the guy you need now ;)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fextremecentre.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F06%2FBREXIT_RICK_ASTLEY_FOR_PRIME_MINISTER.jpg&hash=1df3aa35c558c4f2fd3bebf11a264fac64456d42)
Quote from: Anguille on June 28, 2016, 09:33:06 AM
This is the guy you need now ;)
(https://www.grogheads.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fextremecentre.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F06%2FBREXIT_RICK_ASTLEY_FOR_PRIME_MINISTER.jpg&hash=1df3aa35c558c4f2fd3bebf11a264fac64456d42)
:2funny: Brilliant!
How does Boris for Emperor sound?
Quote from: bayonetbrant on June 25, 2016, 09:15:10 PM
while this is now a bit late, it was damned funny
[yt]https://youtu.be/iAgKHSNqxa8[/yt]
Well to be fair. Everytime Denmark has had a vote on the EU the establishment has spelled doom and disaster if we voted against more EU. And everytime they have been proven dead wrong, so why on earth should we trust them ?
When we voted for or against the euro we were told it would cost thousands of jobs not to join, it didnt.
We were told the interest rates on housing loans would skyrocket so people would be forced out of there homes, it dropped instead so it actually got cheaper.
We were told it would cost us untold billions of kr. if we didnt join, instead a study about 2 years ago concluded that had we joined, it would actually have costed us more then 350B kr.
and so on and so on
So again, why should we the ordinary people trust the bankers, and politicians when clearly they dont know fuck about what they talk about.
Quote from: jejo68 on June 29, 2016, 07:59:44 AM
Well to be fair. Everytime Denmark has had a vote on the EU the establishment has spelled doom and disaster if we voted against more EU. And everytime they have been proven dead wrong, so why on earth should we trust them ?
When we voted for or against the euro we were told it would cost thousands of jobs not to join, it didnt.
We were told the interest rates on housing loans would skyrocket so people would be forced out of there homes, it dropped instead so it actually got cheaper.
We were told it would cost us untold billions of kr. if we didnt join, instead a study about 2 years ago concluded that had we joined, it would actually have costed us more then 350B kr.
and so on and so on
So again, why should we the ordinary people trust the bankers, and politicians when clearly they dont know fuck about what they talk about.
I think a lot of people in the UK would agree with you.
Time to take this thread out of the grave? Brexit's not done yet but soon.
What a mess! Thank you all Brits for making us Yanks look like the civilized bunch again. :hide:
This is how the rest of the EU feels :
Quote from: Anguille on March 29, 2019, 10:53:27 AM
Time to take this thread out of the grave? Brexit's not done yet but soon.
I'm still hoping for a miracle and Article 50 will be revoked. Almost certainly a vain hope, but at least it's now being discussed, where nobody had the balls to even mention it before now.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on March 29, 2019, 01:20:34 PM
Quote from: Anguille on March 29, 2019, 10:53:27 AM
Time to take this thread out of the grave? Brexit's not done yet but soon.
I'm still hoping for a miracle and Article 50 will be revoked. Almost certainly a vain hope, but at least it's now being discussed, where nobody had the balls to even mention it before now.
What was wrong with the first vote? It didn't count?
Oh yes, officially we are still leaving. But surprise surprise, our Tory government is making a spectacular mess of it. Theresa May has lost control and the House of Commons is now trying to figure out the manner of exit.
Meanwhile Tsar Vlad the Shirtless sits back and smiles...
UK wanted to leave
UK can't agree on how to leave
UK begs for a delay only to ask for a new delay
and then you read this :
https://www.politico.eu/article/rees-mogg-uk-should-play-hardball-on-eu-budget-if-brexit-delayed/
Conservative MP and Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg called on Friday on the U.K. government to be "as difficult as possible" with the EU on a range of issues including the long-term budget if Brexit is delayed for an extended period.
"If a long extension leaves us stuck in the EU we should be as difficult as possible," Rees-Mogg tweeted.
"We could veto any increase in the budget, obstruct the putative EU army and block Mr Macron's integrationist schemes," he added, referring to French President Emmanuel Macron's vision for the future of the bloc.You know what :
Jacob Rees-Mogg is putrid slime and should be ignored by everyone.
I saw a meme with JRM which said "I wouldn't trust that haunted, Victorian pencil if he told me the time and we were looking at the same clock" :DD
I give you Jacob Reese-Mogg people
I don't care anymore. I wish this would all just **** off so politics can be about other things.
Lets leave with no deal and see what happens. If it all folds in on itself and there are job losses, let the people who voted for it lose their jobs first and at the same time leave the Tories in power so their benefits will be sufficient enough to buy a loaf, have the heating on for 30 minutes a day and live in a f***ing box under a bridge :-"
Ok - all that was a bit of tongue in cheek - but I do wish this would all just go away. Leave with a deal. Leave with no deal. I really, really couldn't care less anymore.
Let it all out JD.
Quote from: JudgeDredd on April 12, 2019, 05:33:42 AM
Ok - all that was a bit of tongue in cheek - but I do wish this would all just go away. Leave with a deal. Leave with no deal. I really, really couldn't care less anymore.
Or let them vote again knowing now what they didn't know then.
Schotland in general and Amy Macdonald in particular are still very welcome to remain you know !
Donald's golf course can leave on its own.
I don't know about you Brits. America was once part of your, 'European Union'. We've done OK since we left. What's to be afraid of? ;D
Quote from: Sir Slash on April 12, 2019, 10:43:04 AM
We've done OK since we left. What's to be afraid of? ;D
Civil war with May in the role of Lincoln ? O:-)
The Germans?
Quote from: Pete Dero on April 12, 2019, 08:15:11 AM
Or let them vote again knowing now what they didn't know then.
I honestly doubt that would help. The leave vote was rooted in racism, xenophobia, nationalism and ignorance. Also nobody likes being told they've been lied to and fell for it. I think a second referendum would go pretty much the same way.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on April 12, 2019, 01:46:01 PM
Quote from: Pete Dero on April 12, 2019, 08:15:11 AM
Or let them vote again knowing now what they didn't know then.
I honestly doubt that would help. The leave vote was rooted in racism, xenophobia, nationalism and ignorance. Also nobody likes being told they've been lied to and fell for it. I think a second referendum would go pretty much the same way.
And here we go, back into RPF territory.
I could state that people wanting to protect their culture and way of life is not synonymous with racism, and people who don't like going in fear of knife and acid wielding "youths" aren't being xenophobic, but where would that get us? Our very own Sauron is French, not a Brit, but I'm sure he could share some tales about the benefits of multiculturalism.
Perhaps this thread needs to die a quiet death?
You could state all those things and I could very easily oppose them (for the record I'm not a fan of multiculturalism either, but membership of the EU has less to do with that than people realise, especially the people who voted leave).
You are right about one thing, though, and that this is an inherently political subject.
As long as it is kept civil there are no issues here.
Not assuming that Brexiter's are racist and xenophobic, or stupid and easily misled, will definitely assist in maintaining civility.
Read my post again. I didn't say all, did I? I just said that was where the vote was rooted, and you damn well know it, whatever the reasons you personally had for voting leave.
Edit to add: By the way, people who didn't vote leave for racist reasons were misled - that is my qualified opinion on the matter. I don't care whether you like that, and it's hardly uncivil - it's called an opposing political opinion. You need to live with it or stay out of deeply polarising discussions.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on April 13, 2019, 02:37:22 PM
Read my post again. I didn't say all, did I? I just said that was where the vote was rooted, and you damn well know it, whatever the reasons you personally had for voting leave.
Edit to add: By the way, people who didn't vote leave for racist reasons were misled - that is my qualified opinion on the matter. I don't care whether you like that, and it's hardly uncivil - it's called an opposing political opinion. You need to live with it or stay out of deeply polarising discussions.
I'm not British, so I didn't get a vote. ;) I also didn't claim that you said "all", though they WERE the only reasons you gave.
I'm curious what your own gripes with multiculturalism are, and if they're anything that wouldn't get you accused of racism and xenophobia by lefties. I believe that if you're white, and have
anything negative to say about unrestricted immigration, you
will be called a Nazi.
Well I'm totally in agreement with you there. I generally keep my mouth shut for precisely those reasons, hell I think I could probably even be fired if I said what I believe in the office.
So I will be vague, but broadly, I just don't think certain - ah - "communities" integrate well or at all with our society. I can't stand that paradox of lefties and feminists constantly defending "certain communities" when those same "communities" hold our way of living in contempt.
I don't care if non-British people live here, but I do care when they cluster in groups and behave aggressively toward anyone else. Contrary to the mainstream media narrative, this happens a lot. I remember someone in the US (Trump maybe?) getting into trouble for mentioning "no go" areas in Birmingham. Our media and all the usual talking heads reacted with instant knee-jerk indignation. "How dare they? There's no such thing!" Well....there absolutely is such a thing. I can't speak for Birmingham personally (although I wouldn't doubt it) but I have certainly seen it in other towns in this country. Whole areas of outright hostility if you're British white.
Another case in point. The town where I live has, for the last couple of years, attracted a lot of people from some country, I have absolutely no idea where. But they all dress extremely similarly to the point where it's practically a uniform. So far, so mildly unpleasant. But the women in the office I work have mentioned, on the quiet, that they are glared at by these people and even shoved out of the way, and they're starting to dread walking around our own town centre. I can't help but be furious about this.
Where are you from Ubercat? One of my oldest friends is Swedish and he says it's particularly bad there. He's told me plenty of horror stories about what it's like to be white Swedish living in certain parts of the bigger Swedish cities.
Anyway. All of this could have been dealt with without leaving the EU. We've always had control over our borders, which is something the leave voters never understood (or refused to believe). And in fact, many projections indicate that immigration will rise after leaving the EU, with many more people coming from all over the world instead of mainly the EEA. Leave voters don't understand this either.
Sorry, I've been sick for a few days.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on April 14, 2019, 04:10:05 PM
Well I'm totally in agreement with you there. I generally keep my mouth shut for precisely those reasons, hell I think I could probably even be fired if I said what I believe in the office.
So I will be vague, but broadly, I just don't think certain - ah - "communities" integrate well or at all with our society. I can't stand that paradox of lefties and feminists constantly defending "certain communities" when those same "communities" hold our way of living in contempt.
I don't care if non-British people live here, but I do care when they cluster in groups and behave aggressively toward anyone else. Contrary to the mainstream media narrative, this happens a lot. I remember someone in the US (Trump maybe?) getting into trouble for mentioning "no go" areas in Birmingham. Our media and all the usual talking heads reacted with instant knee-jerk indignation. "How dare they? There's no such thing!" Well....there absolutely is such a thing. I can't speak for Birmingham personally (although I wouldn't doubt it) but I have certainly seen it in other towns in this country. Whole areas of outright hostility if you're British white.
Another case in point. The town where I live has, for the last couple of years, attracted a lot of people from some country, I have absolutely no idea where. But they all dress extremely similarly to the point where it's practically a uniform. So far, so mildly unpleasant. But the women in the office I work have mentioned, on the quiet, that they are glared at by these people and even shoved out of the way, and they're starting to dread walking around our own town centre. I can't help but be furious about this.
I'm amazed that you can say all this, and still consider the significant majority of leave voters to simply be racist and xenophobic.
QuoteWhere are you from Ubercat? One of my oldest friends is Swedish and he says it's particularly bad there. He's told me plenty of horror stories about what it's like to be white Swedish living in certain parts of the bigger Swedish cities.
I'm in the US.
QuoteAnyway. All of this could have been dealt with without leaving the EU. We've always had control over our borders, which is something the leave voters never understood (or refused to believe). And in fact, many projections indicate that immigration will rise after leaving the EU, with many more people coming from all over the world instead of mainly the EEA. Leave voters don't understand this either.
If leaving the EU will make economic conditions worse in the UK (a claim that I've heard) then why would more people migrate there? The handouts that are so prevalent in Sweden and Germany would probably decline. Even though the great majority of "refugees" from certain communities are young testosterone filled men, they don't seem too inclined towards doing actual work. Why should they? Most Western European governments seem eager to put them on the dole and get their votes.
Quote from: Ubercat on April 17, 2019, 09:28:23 AM
I'm amazed that you can say all this, and still consider the significant majority of leave voters to simply be racist and xenophobic.
That's because I think they are. Not sure how you can't see that, unless you think what I said is racist? Hint: it isn't. And being someone who has lived here all my life, I can say confidently that I know other Britons far better than you do. I'm telling you - racism is absolutely
rife here.
QuoteIf leaving the EU will make economic conditions worse in the UK (a claim that I've heard) then why would more people migrate there? The handouts that are so prevalent in Sweden and Germany would probably decline. Even though the great majority of "refugees" from certain communities are young testosterone filled men, they don't seem too inclined towards doing actual work. Why should they?
Conditions might worsen here, but they will still be overall better than many places,
especially when immigration will open up to the whole world and not just the EEA.
QuoteMost Western European governments seem eager to put them on the dole and get their votes.
Ah yes, that old chestnut. Yes, I'm sure the governing party of the day plan just that - invite a load of migrants in and make them really happy, just so they get more votes! Jesus christ, you're about as tin-foil-hat as the people who say we should leave the EU because of fears of some federal superstate that is secretly being constructed.
By the way - I can't speak for other countries, but the belief that people are allowed to just flood into the UK and live a life of luxury on the taxpayer is complete and utter bollocks. Life without work in this country is fucking
hard, I know because I've seen it. Just to throw out a random fact: by the government's own rather conservative statistics, more than a third of our homeless aren't UK nationals.
I'd say that's part of your problem right there-- more than a third of your homeless aren't UK nationals? Shouldn't those homeless be homeless in the country where they ARE nationals? Why should the hard-working UK taxpayers foot the bill for taking care of them? Maybe the EU has a plan to take care of them, or pay to take care of them, or move them where they can be taken care of. Or maybe their plan is for you to take care of them and call it racist if you question it.
Quote from: Sir Slash on April 17, 2019, 10:29:26 AM
Shouldn't those homeless be homeless in the country where they ARE nationals? Why should the hard-working UK taxpayers foot the bill for taking care of them?
What care do you think homeless people get, especially paid for by taxpayers? I'll give you a clue: the answer rhymes with "nun". Besides, I - as
I hope many other people - would rather see
nobody homeless, regardless of where they came from.
QuoteMaybe the EU has a plan to take care of them, or pay to take care of them, or move them where they can be taken care of.
Again, this is the same problem no matter the country. There's no Europe-wide "plan" for tackling homelessness.
QuoteOr maybe their plan is for you to take care of them and call it racist if you question it.
I don't follow.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on April 17, 2019, 10:42:56 AM
Quote from: Sir Slash on April 17, 2019, 10:29:26 AM
QuoteMaybe the EU has a plan to take care of them, or pay to take care of them, or move them where they can be taken care of.
Again, this is the same problem no matter the country. There's no Europe-wide "plan" for tackling homelessness.
Doesn't it tell you something about our society when it takes one day for the French to find a billion to rebuild a cathedral while people who are protesting for weeks hear there is no money for them.
You might check the Groghead in trouble thread about Sauron who lived on the streets in France for a while ( http://grogheads.com/forums/index.php?topic=23192.0 )
Quote from: Pete Dero on April 17, 2019, 12:37:58 PM
Doesn't it tell you something about our society when it takes one day for the French to find a billion to rebuild a cathedral while people who are protesting for weeks hear there is no money for them.
Yeah I was thinking that myself earlier.
If you would like to give all of your money to support the poor or the homeless or whoever, then do so. As for me, I like to keep the money I have earned for myself, my family, and whatever causes I think deserve it, minus of course, the part already taken out by the government that is supposed to be used to support the poor, the homeless, or whoever. That's called Freedom and is my God-given Right, not government-given, regardless what government or anyone else thinks about it. That is the very essence of 'Personal Property' and should be supported by everyone who truly believes in freedom. The people who would rather use their money to rebuild a cathedral rather than use it for whatever purpose someone else believes they should, have that right. Or, at least, still have it... for a while.
Quote from: Huw the Poo on April 17, 2019, 09:41:35 AM
Quote from: Ubercat on April 17, 2019, 09:28:23 AM
I'm amazed that you can say all this, and still consider the significant majority of leave voters to simply be racist and xenophobic.
That's because I think they are. Not sure how you can't see that, unless you think what I said is racist? Hint: it isn't. And being someone who has lived here all my life, I can say confidently that I know other Britons far better than you do. I'm telling you - racism is absolutely rife here.
I don't think anything you said was racist, just common sense. Nevertheless, tons of lefties would consider you the next thing to Hitler for saying them.
Do you think that there's any place where people live that isn't "rife with racism"? It's part of the human condition. In-group preference and fear of the other has served a purpose in survival FAR predating the existence of people. Nevertheless, my own country has never been less racist than it is now. How does yours compare now to its own past?
Everyone, even those who crow the loudest about how non racist they are, have racist impulses from time to time. The important thing is how they're dealt with. Recognizing and immediately discarding them is the best thing to do.
I have a pretty solid racism test. I love my sister. She's kind of a dingbat but that's neither here nor there. I'd take a bullet for her. All I have to do is ask myself if there's any ethnicity of human that I'd have a problem with her dating or marrying. The answer is none. If a guy loves and respects her, and treats her well, I'll happily welcome him to the family whatever his melanin level.
The same does not apply with cultures. They are NOT all created equal, nor do they have equal worth.
Quote
QuoteMost Western European governments seem eager to put them on the dole and get their votes.
Ah yes, that old chestnut. Yes, I'm sure the governing party of the day plan just that - invite a load of migrants in and make them really happy, just so they get more votes! Jesus christ, you're about as tin-foil-hat as the people who say we should leave the EU because of fears of some federal superstate that is secretly being constructed.
Why do YOU think that all western EU governments are so eager to flood their countries with culturally incompatible "refugees"? Are they really that altruistic? Why do they put the interests of mostly nonproductive foreigners above those of their own people? In Canada, Trudeau spends money housing Isis Jihadi's but cries crocodile tears that they have no money for Canadian veterans wounded fighting such savages. I didn't vote for Trump, and there's a number of valid things to hate about him but this is one good thing about him winning. I've no doubt that Hillary would be pulling the same kind of crap if she'd gotten the chance.
Your own Pakistani grooming gangs were covered up for as long as possible. When the government and BBC couldn't pull that off any longer they uniformly started calling them "Asian" gangs, much to the disgust of more honorable segments of the population, such as the Sikhs. How about the knife and acid wielding gangs of "youths" in London and other big cities? Your police are made to hunt down rude words on the internet rather than protecting actual British people. :idiot2:
Quote from: Ubercat on April 17, 2019, 06:43:39 PM
I don't think anything you said was racist, just common sense. Nevertheless, tons of lefties would consider you the next thing to Hitler for saying them.
Agreed, and they'd be wrong. I'm not racist, but definitely would be called that by certain people for saying what I posted earlier. This doesn't change my point that the leave vote was rooted in racism. Hell, the leave campaign may as well have called themselves "Operation Get the Darkies Out".
QuoteDo you think that there's any place where people live that isn't "rife with racism"? It's part of the human condition. In-group preference and fear of the other has served a purpose in survival FAR predating the existence of people. Nevertheless, my own country has never been less racist than it is now. How does yours compare now to its own past?
I can't speak for other countries. Surely it varies from country to country, although I would absolutely concede there probably isn't a single country that's free of it. As for how it compares to the past - that's almost impossible to say. On a personal basis, i.e. talking to people face to face, it doesn't seem to have diminished at all. Obviously there's far less of it in popular media though.
QuoteWhy do YOU think that all western EU governments are so eager to flood their countries with culturally incompatible "refugees"? Are they really that altruistic?
Who knows? I haven't looked into it closely enough. I suspect that "undesirable" immigrants enter by virtue of association with "desirable" immigrants. I admit I don't know enough about it, because I've never really cared about this aspect of it. As I have said before, I don't care if non-British people live here. I just care that they integrate and respect our laws.
QuoteWhy do they put the interests of mostly nonproductive foreigners above those of their own people?
Citation needed. If this happens in my country I'd love to see proof. In the UK, if you don't contribute, you're fucked. End of story. As far as I know it hits non-British as much as it hits British people.
QuoteI've no doubt that Hillary would be pulling the same kind of crap if she'd gotten the chance.
Agreed. As hilarious as it is that you elected Trump, if I'd been an American during the last election I honestly don't know which way I'd have voted.
QuoteYour own Pakistani grooming gangs were covered up for as long as possible. When the government and BBC couldn't pull that off any longer they uniformly started calling them "Asian" gangs, much to the disgust of more honorable segments of the population, such as the Sikhs. How about the knife and acid wielding gangs of "youths" in London and other big cities? Your police are made to hunt down rude words on the internet rather than protecting actual British people. :idiot2:
I'm not sure if your question is rhetorical or not, but I agree with you here. I am
beyond furious that our police get a hard-on for Twitter trolls whilst simultaneously declaring they will no longer investigate burglaries unless most of their work is already done for them. (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/met-police-spending-cuts-400-million-funding-london-crimes-not-investigated-burglary-assault-a8002746.html)