Order of Battle: Pacific has now an official release date

Started by Boggit, April 12, 2015, 09:37:59 AM

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Rayfer

I have sympathy for game developers. Each of us has our quirks and our likes and dislikes. It's hard to please us all. Personally....artificial turn limits is a game killer for me. To others it's ok and even appreciated. Why not have both?  They do it with difficulty levels all the time. They do it with levels of micro-management too. Like HOI3 and Distant Worlds...you can pick and choose what you want to control and what you want to hand over to the AI.

Cyrano

Most of the time, time limits are a way to conceal inferior AI; adding challenge where there would otherwise be none.  As someone who prefers to play against humans, this is a small matter, but the last Panzer General clone I really enjoyed was Fantasy General, so I'm probably not the target demographic...

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
Sergeant at Arms of La Fraternite des Boutons Carres

One mustachioed, cigar-chomping, bespectacled deity, entirely at your service.

You didn't know? My Corps has already sailed to Berlin. We got there 3 days ago and we've been in the Tiergarten on the piss ever since. -- Marshal Soult, October 1806

Adherbal

Surely there is no feasible way of doing a tactical level wargame with a continues campaign without time limits. If the player would be able to take as long as he wants, that would require every scenario to cover pretty much the entire war.

For example Poland 1939. The player decides to have a picknick of 3 years before moving any units, ending turn after turn. How should the game handle this? Simulate a whole world-wide campaign in the background where eventually the French and British attack and conquer Germany and finally stumble upon the player's units from the west? As fun and dynamic as that may sound, it's makes no sense from a game design point of view. It still costs a hell of a lot of time and money to develop a game  :)

If you really want a historical/realistic explanation for time-limits, why not consider it as "being relieved from command" for failing to stay anywere close to the time-table layed out by high command. So it's not necessarily the mission failing, but your personal carrier as military commander ;)

In regard to Order of Battle, I can assure you none of the timelimits are designed to "add a challenge" in any mission. However it does force the player to at least fight the battle in a realistic manner. Aside from the issues mentioned above, nothing would stop the player from just wittling down the enemy with long range artillery and battleship bombardment. I'm sure this would've been a possible way to handle operations such as the Leyte invasion, but a commander applying that strategy would not be allowed to stay in position for long. Certainly not the many years it would take to end the war that way  :) Time is a vital element in war after all.

JudgeDredd

Well what are the chances of someone taking a picnic?

I think the general consensus is time limits specifically put in to prevent the user from doing anything out the norm to give the AI a chance...and to give the impression of a difficult time.

Again I'm specifically refereeing to Panzer Corps here where Que Cleary there was very, very little chance of the user actually going any other way than the designer wanted them to. When that 88 was blocking the road, there was seldom any chance to manoeuvre...all you could really do was make sure the right units were in the right place.

I believe secondary objectives were on there as well.

The time limit thing was Gannett because it was sooooo right. There was absolutely no room for going off the beaten track.

I'm not NOT a fan of time constraints. I just don't like when they are to hide a mechanic
Alba gu' brath

Swatter

The element of time provides tension, it is an essential element in the Panzer General genre. I think general McClellan from the American Civil War is the perfect example of a general taking his sweet time marshaling his forces, regardless of the realities of war.

I come down on the designer's side here. Having tight turn limits is realistic, not to mention an essential element in this type of game.

edit- I see Steelgrave beat me to the punch with his Monty quip.

jomni

And most people unfairly compare with sandbox games.
Even Combat Mission has time limits.

JudgeDredd

I know CM has time limits. IMO, they are not gamey and give you time to do what you need to do and imo they are not particularly unrealistic.

Of course the difference between those games is stark and very obvious so not a fair comparison. This was brought up here because of the similarities between this and Panzer Corps in terms of play style.

I'm not a fan of time limits but I understand they have a place in some games. I'd still rather not have them at all though or at least an option to either vary the time limit or switch it off.

Ultimately I'd like to use my head to decide what way to tackle the problem, not have a timer determine it.
Alba gu' brath

Cyrano

I've been pretty clear (I think) about my general dislike for the PG engine since the days of Fantasy General, but it bears repeating that there's a wide gulf between time limits as they exist in CM, Scourge of War, Ultimate General, the Tiller games above the tactical level, &c., and the way they exist in PG and a couple other titles where they're used as a key element in scenario balance.  Of course this only matters in single-player games or MP game played competitively.  When playing MP otherwise, it's far better to let the game end and the two (or more) players get together and argue about who won and who lost over alcohol.

Taking just a small pair of examples, I have no need of a turn limit or even a scoring system to tell me that both panzerde and Barth have had the better of me in our respective PzC games.

It's entirely a matter of preference, but I think proponents would be better served to confess that turn limits are, like victory points, a game convention rather than attempting to rationalize them in "real world" terms.

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
Sergeant at Arms of La Fraternite des Boutons Carres

One mustachioed, cigar-chomping, bespectacled deity, entirely at your service.

You didn't know? My Corps has already sailed to Berlin. We got there 3 days ago and we've been in the Tiergarten on the piss ever since. -- Marshal Soult, October 1806

Apocalypse 31

Quote from: Gusington on April 23, 2015, 08:56:45 AM
I do know this: in BA2 Kursk, the time limit of the second German mission has been driving me bug nutty. Twice I was a hair's breadth from winning and twice because time ran out I did not get the win...no other reason. So after nerdraging I caught my breath and lowered the difficulty just to move on.

I find the turn limits in BA2 to be VERY generous, especially compared to the first game. I've played through the original campaigns, and the German Kursk campaign, and I've only found myself feeling rushed on one or two occasions.

There's a German mission in the second campaign that is absolutely brutal in terms of time limits. I forget the name, but you must move quickly through a 'weak' Russian defense and cross a bridge fortified with Russian defenders. It took me 3 or 4 solid attempts to win.

Panzer Corps is a different story. Obviously its a much larger scale, and I want time to actually develop a strategy, use reconnaissance, then form a solid course of action. Rarely have I ever won a mission in the allotted time. In most cases I use cheats to add 10 to 15 extra turns.

Swatter

Quote from: JudgeDredd on April 25, 2015, 12:37:57 AM
I'd still rather not have them at all though or at least an option to either vary the time limit or switch it off.

I tend to agree with you there, but I think the game in question is a bit less time abstract. In Panzer Korps, since a turn was rather abstract, variable time limits would make sense, depending on the difficulty level.

-budd-

Quote from: Cyrano on April 23, 2015, 06:53:43 PM
Most of the time, time limits are a way to conceal inferior AI; adding challenge where there would otherwise be none.

Best,

Jim
"Cyrano"
:/7)
+1
No problem with the concept of time limits, i understand the need for them. As long as they are reasonable, using time limits to make the game more difficult and forcing you to play a certain way is no fun for me. You can usually tell thats the case if a game has different levels of victory for finishing a scenario faster.
Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must.  ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Be Yourself; Everyone Else is Taken ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

Boggit

Quote from: Swatter on April 25, 2015, 03:47:15 PM
Quote from: JudgeDredd on April 25, 2015, 12:37:57 AM
I'd still rather not have them at all though or at least an option to either vary the time limit or switch it off.

I tend to agree with you there, but I think the game in question is a bit less time abstract. In Panzer Korps, since a turn was rather abstract, variable time limits would make sense, depending on the difficulty level.
I personally like the idea of having an option for time limits, and also a time limit with a varied/random few turns added to keep a bit of uncertainty.
The most shocking fact about war is that its victims and its instruments are individual human beings, and that these individual beings are condemned by the monstrous conventions of politics to murder or be murdered in quarrels not their own. Aldous Huxley

Foul Temptress! (Mirth replying to Gus) ;)

On a good day, our legislature has the prestige of a drunk urinating on a wall at 4am and getting most of it on his shoe. On a good day  ::) Steelgrave

It's kind of silly to investigate whether or not a Clinton is lying. That's sort of like investigating why the sky is blue. Banzai_Cat


Gusington

I saw JH playing it last night. I won't get to it for a week or two but I am excited.


слава Україна!

We can't live under the threat of a c*nt because he's threatening nuclear Armageddon.

-JudgeDredd

Boggit

I'm having fun playing around with it. It's very pretty, and the combat seems to be meshing well for the game, I like the support feature for ATG's as well as artillery. The only minor gripe I have so far is that the game could do with a smooth scroll feature, as moving across screens can be a bit "jerky". It's by no means a big deal, and is more to do with gameplay aesthetics as far as I am concerned. I'll comment more when I have played more, but so far so good!  O0
The most shocking fact about war is that its victims and its instruments are individual human beings, and that these individual beings are condemned by the monstrous conventions of politics to murder or be murdered in quarrels not their own. Aldous Huxley

Foul Temptress! (Mirth replying to Gus) ;)

On a good day, our legislature has the prestige of a drunk urinating on a wall at 4am and getting most of it on his shoe. On a good day  ::) Steelgrave

It's kind of silly to investigate whether or not a Clinton is lying. That's sort of like investigating why the sky is blue. Banzai_Cat